Baptism - Here we go again

[B-A-C]

Matt 3:5; Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
Matt 3:6; and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
Matt 3:7; But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matt 3:8; Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

It seems everyone in the region was being baptized, and confessing their sins. Baptism isn't really a sign that you are saved nearly as much as you have repented.
If you haven't repented, you aren't ready to be baptized.

Acts 19:4; Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Acts 13:24; after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

It seems many churches to day are down-playing baptism, some say it isn't required. Often the thief on the cross is used as an example. But the thief didn't have the Holy Spirit either.
He died before Jesus ascended to Heaven and sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in the tabernacle in Heaven. The Thief was under the old covenant.

Some churches go so far as to say it's just an Earthly ceremony made up by men. But of course that isn't what the Bible says.

Matt 21:25; The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?" And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Why then did you not believe him?'
Mark 11:30; The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me."
Luke 20:4; The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men?"

Of course Jesus Himself was baptized as our example. If you're a Christian... (a follower of Christ)... then you follow Jesus, you do the things He did. What was one of the first things He did?

Matt 3:13; Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
Matt 3:14; And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
Matt 3:15; But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
Matt 3:16; When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Mark 1:9; It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mark 1:10; And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.

Luke 3:21; When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.

John 1:31; I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water."
John 1:32; And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
John 1:33; I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Apollos was another who believed in baptism. He didn't understand everything yet, but he understood baptism.

Acts 18:24; Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Acts 18:25; This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.
Acts 18:26; So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

It's interesting John didn't know who Jesus was until He was baptized in water. In verse 33 John says ... "He who sent me to baptize"... who was this "He". It wasn't Jesus.
So then.. was John's baptism from men or from heaven?

It's also interesting that Jesus's ministry started with when He was baptized.

Acts 1:22; beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

.. to be continued ..

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus said He who believes... AND... is baptized will be saved.

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Peter actually says baptism is one of the things that saves you.

1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The Bible says if you are rejecting baptism, you are rejecting God.

Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Usually when we think of multitudes being baptized we think of John the Baptist. But the Bible says Jesus (or rather His disciples) baptized more people than even John.

John 4:1; Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

Acts 2:38; Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter understood that baptism without repentance is just another bath.

Of course Paul was also baptized.

Acts 9:18; Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

Paul recognized that baptism was also symbol of dying to the "old self" and being spiritually resurrected with Jesus.

Rom 6:2; Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Rom 6:3; Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4; Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5; For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

Col 2:12; buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13; And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Now obviously if you're reading this, you haven't actually been physically buried in the Earth. But if you have been baptized, going down into the water symbolizes being buried.
Raising up out of the water symbolizes the resurrection and eternal life.

 

[Reba1]

Should a Christian be baptized, yes. In an extreme situation Baptism may not be possible . Form of baptism ? for me getting dunked in a live river/stream . Again may not always be possible . The act of getting dunked does not wash our sins away. Our sins are washed by His Blood. If Baptism did not matter the Scriptures would not be so full of examples, as posted above. I also dont believe not being baptized will keep a believer out of heaven .. Once again should a Christian be baptized YES

I really dislike church baptismals the water is not "living' flowing "

 

[Beetow]

This discussion is below me; it's too childish.

• Heb 5:11-14 . .We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you
are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need
someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need
milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted
with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant
use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

• Heb 6:1-2 . .Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to
maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and
of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of
the dead, and eternal judgment.
_

 

[Reba1]

This discussion is below me; it's too childish.

• Heb 5:11-14 . .We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you
are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need
someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need
milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted
with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant
use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

• Heb 6:1-2 . .Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to
maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and
of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of
the dead, and eternal judgment.
_

Are you implying baptism is not relevant? Yet you chimed in ..

 

[Brother-Paul]

Baptism, here we go again.

As you say brother, Jesus gave us an example, he also gave the Great Commission. So we all agree baptism is important.

But as you say, being dunked in a river is not always possible, and in many countries the water is freezing even in summer.

Now as we know the early church spread across europe, again they would have warm water and the example Jesus gave was followed.

I was reading a book on the early church a week or so back, the above was noted. But as Christianity spread and Constantine and the RCC took the reigns, so to speak, things started to change. It noted that different RCC places of worship adopted different methods, from dunking to sprinkling, and nobody bothered. Each place of worship did what they felt was best for them, the view seemed to be, Baptise by what ever method, better to do that than nothing. So started the mix up we see today.

Following the reformation, denominations started to appear, as we know, one by one and then the Baptists, each one picking up on certain bits and making it their own practice.

The aim of this reply to the thread is not to say what I believe but share the practices of the past from what I read.

We know baptism doesn't save us, we also know why Jesus said we are to Baptise in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We also know that when baptism is carried out true repence from the heart is what God wants, with that in mind, and noting that it is a symbol, does it therefore matter whether a person is dunked, dipped, sprinkled or poured?

 

[Reba1]

@Brother-Paul nicely said

 

[BunnyOnion]

If Baptism were not relevant to the Gospel Good News Emmanuel was born to deliver , that we may witness God in the flesh and live, Emmanuel/Jesus would not himself have been Baptized by John the Baptizer before beginning his Salvation ministry.

I would suggest it not be seen as a matter of, here we go again, relative to this topic.
Baptism is what God said it is and that is the end of it.

Why press on and argue with that one, ones, led by the spirit that blinds many to that fact?

As with any topic in Soteriology, Apologetics, etc...
When God in his own words doesn't reach someone, we shall not.

What we will accomplish is frustrating ourselves, growing upset and overwhelmed because those not meant to understand never shall.

I've encountered people who insist Baptism is not important. And has nothing to do with the Gospel.

I believe they live that way.
And come the judgement we shall all find out what was truth. And if we knew it. Or if instead we lived to oppose it.

 

[Waggles]

does it therefore matter whether a person is dunked, dipped, sprinkled or poured?

YES it does matter.
what we do must be acceptable to God not to ourselves.
Scripture and church history teach us clearly that water baptism by full immersion confessing one's faith in Jesus is the only way - one baptism
Sprinkling is invalid as one is not buried with Christ and cannot comply with Romans 6, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12
Babies of course have no need to repent nor are able to - so again baptism is to do with repentance and obedience to the gospel.

 

[Waggles]

1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he bring us to God; put to death in the flesh, but made alive in spirit;
3:19 in which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in Noah’s days, while the ark was a preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water:
3:21 which also in the antitype does now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through Jesus Christ’s resurrection;
3:22 who is at God’s right, gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Nobody said baptism wasn't essential, it was said, it doesn't save us, it was said Jesus was baptised as an example, it was said we are to daytime others... the great Commission. Then I shared what I read about the early church. Now I am 100% when it comes to comparing what is done today as to what was done in the early church, quote up to 300 AD. The RCC, I have to many criticisms, but I shared above how they looked at baptism, many are not aware of those facts, which is why today we have, dunking, sprinkling, pouring and dipping.

Unlike in the past, this ytime I chose to submit what I put remaining nuetral, and added a final comment, God sees the heart.

A that was very clear, I thought, even after rereading what I put.

Do you know how to hold a discussion? It means sharing together, discussing together, not shooting opinions.

Please read what is said before commenting, your reply does not reflect my post.

Thank you.

 

[Brother-Paul]

YES it does matter.
what we do must be acceptable to God not to ourselves.
Scripture and church history teach us clearly that water baptism by full immersion confessing one's faith in Jesus is the only way - one baptism
Sprinkling is invalid as one is not buried with Christ and cannot comply with Romans 6, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12
Babies of course have no need to repent nor are able to - so again baptism is to do with repentance and obedience to the gospel.

When I included the statement at the bottom of the post, does it matter, it was an open question not my view and was based on what I said the early RCC church did.

God sees the heart, you could have a person dunk whose heart is not 100% for what they are doing, you could have a pour baptism and thecperson is 100% aware of what they are doing and why.

Let me add a couple of situations...

If I live in a country that sees ice all year round, do I dunk in it?

If I am a wheelchair user, with back and spine issues, pain 24/7, and use an electric bed to get myself out of bed, what am I to do?

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother-Paul -- that's why churches have baptistries. A person is totally immersed by the pastor and come back up -- to newness of life. It's all representative of what the person believes in their heart. The pastor Should be sharing with the congregation / whom ever is present -- exactly what baptism stands for. It's totally symbolic -- and the symbolism is important.

 

[Sue D.]

@Brother-Paul -- kind of got sidetracked in my response. God knows your heart and your desires. And, of course, you can't be baptized because of your physical issues. You're no less saved than those who Can.

 

[Waggles]

If I live in a country that sees ice all year round, do I dunk in it?
If I am a wheelchair user, with back and spine issues, pain 24/7, and use an electric bed to get myself out of bed, what am I to do?

There is no need to be baptized in ice cold waters - there are baptism baths and tubs indoors - even warm water.
I have seen wheelchair baptisms and in many places the crippled are lifted into the waters of baptism.
At Pentecostal rallies where the lame and the crippled go and get baptized I have seen them healed in the waters of baptism and come out whole.

 

[B-A-C]

If I am a wheelchair user, with back and spine issues, pain 24/7, and use an electric bed to get myself out of bed, what am I to do?

Possibly there are some who can't. But there are many who simply won't. Yes God looks at the heart. He knows the difference.

 

[Sue D.]

There is no need to be baptized in ice cold waters - there are baptism baths and tubs indoors - even warm water.
I have seen wheelchair baptisms and in many places the crippled are lifted into the waters of baptism.
At Pentecostal rallies where the lame and the crippled go and get baptized I have seen them healed in the waters of baptism and come out whole.

He's not talking about a 'healing' baptizm -- but simply to show other's of his inner decision that has already been made.

 

[Waggles]

He's not talking about a 'healing' baptism -- but simply to show other's of his inner decision that has already been made.

"healing baptism" what is that??
People get healed at the time of their water baptism because God is blessing them and rewarding their faith.
Often people come up from the waters of baptism speaking in tongues as well > baptism of the Holy Spirit.
God confirms the spiritual significance and purpose of what He has commanded for us to do.

 

[Reba1]

YES it does matter.
what we do must be acceptable to God not to ourselves.
Scripture and church history teach us clearly that water baptism by full immersion confessing one's faith in Jesus is the only way - one baptism
Sprinkling is invalid as one is not buried with Christ and cannot comply with Romans 6, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12
Babies of course have no need to repent nor are able to - so again baptism is to do with repentance and obedience to the gospel.

Where is Scripture do you find baptistries are acceptable to God? You said " what we do must be acceptable to God ..."

Personally... Although i like the idea of flowing river I understand the use of baptistries.