Baptism - Here we go again

[Reba1]

Scripture i noticed a few years ago.

Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[Waggles]

Where is Scripture do you find baptistries are acceptable to God? You said " what we do must be acceptable to God ..."
Personally... Although I like the idea of flowing river I understand the use of baptistries.

Baptistries are not common these days and people use all manner of means for full immersion baptisms - the sea, rivers and lakes, pools and tubs, water towers, etc.
Baptism by full immersion is the Bible way - to go under the water and to come up again.
Jesus and the apostles only teach of this.

 

[Reba1]

Baptistries are not common these days and people use all manner of means for full immersion baptisms - the sea, rivers and lakes, pools and tubs, water towers, etc.
Baptism by full immersion is the Bible way - to go under the water and to come up again.
Jesus and the apostles only teach of this.

Where I n Scripture do you find the use of ,pools, tubs water towers etc. For the use of baptism?
You said " what we do must be acceptable God..." by the example of The Christ Himself it was a river. Wher is your Scripture support?

 

[Waggles]

Where I n Scripture do you find the use of ,pools, tubs water towers etc. For the use of baptism?
You said " what we do must be acceptable God..." by the example of The Christ Himself it was a river. Where is your Scripture support?

" what we do must be acceptable God..." and where do you find in scripture directions as to where and how people are to be immersed in water.
There is no scriptural doctrine on the necessity of rivers versus other bodies of water.
You are splitting hairs and creating a strawman's argument over what is not important. Baptism in a river at the time of Jesus was a matter of convenience.
What is acceptable to God is that people get baptized in water by full immersion.
And many people when baptized receive their first healings and miracles in the waters of baptism - so it would seem to me and to them that God has found what they do acceptable to Him.

John 9:1 And passing by, he saw a man blind from his birth.
9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and with the clay anointed his eyes,
9:7 and said to him, Go, wash in the pool of Silōam (which is interpreted, Sent). He went away therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

 

[Waggles]

The Dura-Europos baptism room - Syria - 2nd century Roman Empire > 101-200AD

 

[Reba1]

@Waggles
Gotta love how "must be acceptable to God ", fits our ideals. I too think dunking is the best way for baptism , and Christians should be baptized, when possible. While I believe baptism is not necessary for Salvation. Our action of baptism does not come close to His Cross . His Blood is our salvation !

The Jordon was good enough for Jesus but man good ol self centered men needs what is acceptable to himself. Goes along with so many thinking they are in control of their Salvation.

 

[Waggles]

While I believe baptism is not necessary for Salvation ...
... Goes along with so many thinking they are in control of their Salvation.

fortunately many of us believe in scripture and the commandments of God.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- that's why churches have baptistries. A person is totally immersed by the pastor and come back up -- to newness of life. It's all representative of what the person believes in their heart. The pastor Should be sharing with the congregation / whom ever is present -- exactly what baptism stands for. It's totally symbolic -- and the symbolism is important.

Remaining neutral to generate discussion, so as not to express my views; it can be said, and has been said, a baptistry is but a pool of water, it is not flowing water. It is but a tub of still water not a bit like the river Jordan.

I totally agree 'pastor should' be sharing, first with the person or persons so they know exactly what they are doing, what each stage stands for, what baptism is.

Once the people being baptised know what it is about and wish to proceed, then it is the pastors job, to guide them through it and explain each stage to the ones who are looking on.

Sadly many baptisms are carried out, indoors, with the members of the place of worship as witnesses, with very few from outside being there.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul -- kind of got sidetracked in my response. God knows your heart and your desires. And, of course, you can't be baptized because of your physical issues. You're no less saved than those who Can.

No problem sister, it is good to talk, it is healthy to discuss all options in life and compare with the scriptures. We are encouraged to do so.

You are correct, as we know sister, there are issues for some people to to health or disabilities, but one point was missed, what about those people who live in countries that are covered in ice, they wouldn't cut a circle in the ice and have a dunk in there would they. Is there a country without a river, very probably, definitely the ones who are frozen all year.

You will no doubt reply that they should use a baptismal tub, a water tub, but that is not mentioned in scripture Sue.

It's good to consider these things together, the conditions in the middle east are not the same worldwide, but we are commissioned, to go forth into the world, in Jesus Name, baptising those willing to come to Christ, in the name of the Father, in the Name of the Son, and in the Name of the Holy Spirit. From Judea, to Samaria even to the farthest point on earth.

Middle East, North Russia, Australia, Alaska, from the frozen north to the frozen south, through all countries and regions north and south of the equator, as far as the east is from the west.

 

[Brother-Paul]

There is no need to be baptized in ice cold waters - there are baptism baths and tubs indoors - even warm water.
I have seen wheelchair baptisms and in many places the crippled are lifted into the waters of baptism.
At Pentecostal rallies where the lame and the crippled go and get baptized I have seen them healed in the waters of baptism and come out whole.

Although I agree and have shared these situation for discussion, it has to be said, a baptism bath or water tub, does not replicate what Jesus taught and did, that was to be baptised in the flowing waters of a river.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Possibly there are some who can't. But there are many who simply won't. Yes God looks at the heart. He knows the difference.

I cannot disagree brother, I was not referring to myself here, all items mentioned are for discussion, to widen the gates of thought.

It is quite a different way of doing things, one I find rewarding as it does open our thoughts and widens our understanding of what scripture says and the differences across the globe. But I also find the method frustration from the prospective some peoples immediate reaction is, this guy doesn't know I'll put him straight sort of replies. Whether people think I know or don't know is of no interest to me, making is think, creating a wider view of discussion has to be healthy, providing it is done in love and according to The Word. There are some on here, you included who know what I believe and don't believe, again that is of no concern to me, sharing The Word together and throwing it what if's and what is right compared to what Jesus said and taught has to be our main goal and priority.

God doesn't just look at our heart, he knows it like he knows everything on this planet. PTL he does brother.

 

[Brother-Paul]

"healing baptism" what is that??
People get healed at the time of their water baptism because God is blessing them and rewarding their faith.
Often people come up from the waters of baptism speaking in tongues as well > baptism of the Holy Spirit.
God confirms the spiritual significance and purpose of what He has commanded for us to do.

PTL for all His Blessings

But I have to disagree with a comment you make here my friend.

God is nor rewarding our Faith, a statement like that is like asking the Holy Spirit to fill us.

First HOLY SPIRIT, we are already filled with the spirit when we are born again from above and have been washed and spiritually regenerated.

When we choose to follow Christ, we die to sin, and our broken relationship with God is renewed ( Romans 6:11; Colossians 2:13 ).

We ourselves are renewed as well 'at that point': “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit” ( Titus 3:5 ).

Now FAITH, God does not renew our faith, he is constantly looking for Faith in us.

Romans 10: 9-13
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Mark 11:12
And Jesus answered saying to them, “Have faith in God.

Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:5
so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

2 Corinthins 5:7
for we walk by faith, not by sight

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Philippians 3:9
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Matt 9:22, Mark 5:34, Mark 10:52, Luke 8:48, Luke 18:42
Note: your faith has healed you.

 

[Waggles]

Well no wonder there are thousands of churches and faiths
even one simple commandment for water baptism generates a multitude of doctrines

 

[Brother-Paul]

Well no wonder there are thousands of churches and faiths
even one simple commandment for water baptism generates a multitude of doctrines

As was stated at the beginning of the thread; rightly or wrongly, it has been like that for up to 1500 years.

 

[Sue D.]

Back at the time of Jesus Christ -- outdoor rivers / lakes, etc were all they had. It was a different part of the world. Different climate, etc. So -- indoor baptistries came to be. The water doesn't have to be Flowing. It simply needs to be enough to cover the person completely when they are laid down. And are brought back Up.

@ Waggles -- you're suggesting that your way is The right way? That way we'll all be on the same page?

 

[Sue D.]

@Waggles -- water baptism is not part of salvation. What Jesus Christ did on the cross was sufficient for our salvation. Baptism is important, yes, but not essential For salvation. It IS something that a pastor or elder does for the already born again believer.

The thief on the cross -- neither spoke in tongues or had a chance to be baptized. Yes, Jesus Christ said that He would be with him in Paradise. Paradise is not heaven -- it Is the other part of Abrahams' bosom that Jesus Christ went to after He gave His life for us -- He went to the section of hell / Hades in our place and then took those waiting in Paradise/ the other section that was separated by an abyss back up with Him when He rose from the dead. So that theif was the last person to die before Christ's death and was taken back up with the rest of the born again believers who'd been waiting for the cross to take place.

 

[B-A-C]

@Waggles -- water baptism is not part of salvation. What Jesus Christ did on the cross was sufficient for our salvation. Baptism is important, yes, but not essential For salvation. It IS something that a pastor or elder does for the already born again believer.

The thief on the cross was under the old covenant, if you read the OP you would know this.
People say baptism isn't required, and yet the Bible says it is. Who is right? You or the Bible?

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Rejecting baptism is rejecting the will of God.

 

[Sue D.]

I'm Not saying to reject baptizm -- because we're told to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

To be saved -- 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 10:9-10.

Matt 3:5; Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
Matt 3:6; and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
Matt 3:7; But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matt 3:8; Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

It seems everyone in the region was being baptized, and confessing their sins. Baptism isn't really a sign that you are saved nearly as much as you have repented.
If you haven't repented, you aren't ready to be baptized.

Acts 19:4; Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Acts 13:24; after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

It seems many churches to day are down-playing baptism, some say it isn't required. Often the thief on the cross is used as an example. But the thief didn't have the Holy Spirit either.
He died before Jesus ascended to Heaven and sprinkled His blood on the mercy seat in the tabernacle in Heaven. The Thief was under the old covenant.

Some churches go so far as to say it's just an Earthly ceremony made up by men. But of course that isn't what the Bible says.

Matt 21:25; The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?" And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Why then did you not believe him?'
Mark 11:30; The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me."
Luke 20:4; The baptism of John—was it from heaven or from men?"

Of course Jesus Himself was baptized as our example. If you're a Christian... (a follower of Christ)... then you follow Jesus, you do the things He did. What was one of the first things He did?

Matt 3:13; Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
Matt 3:14; And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
Matt 3:15; But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.
Matt 3:16; When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Mark 1:9; It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mark 1:10; And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.

Luke 3:21; When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.

John 1:31; I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water."
John 1:32; And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
John 1:33; I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'

Apollos was another who believed in baptism. He didn't understand everything yet, but he understood baptism.

Acts 18:24; Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus.
Acts 18:25; This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John.
Acts 18:26; So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

It's interesting John didn't know who Jesus was until He was baptized in water. In verse 33 John says ... "He who sent me to baptize"... who was this "He". It wasn't Jesus.
So then.. was John's baptism from men or from heaven?

It's also interesting that Jesus's ministry started with when He was baptized.

Acts 1:22; beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

.. to be continued ..

Your comment regarding the thief on the cross isn't accurate, either. Jesus Christ ascended back up to heaven 40 days after His bodily resurrection on the 3rd day.

Jesus Christ did not have to sprinkle His blood on the mercy seat in the tabernacle in heaven.

No one received the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost. And then it was a gradual event for the individual believer.

 

[Sue D.]

It's Possible that the RCC has attached some form of 'good works' as being essential To salvation. As Reba1 stated earlier -- we want to think that 'we' have some 'control' over our salvation.

And there Are lots of verses that suggest baptismal regeneration is the Right way.

Baptism by immersion and that's the Only kind of baptism. Is Meant to be an outward expression to Others as to what has already taken place in the heart. That we believe Personally that Jesus Christ died for My sins and that He was buried and rose again on the 3rd day. Obviously no one stays under water for that long or they'd drown. But His death , burial and bodily resurrection gives Us the chance For a new life to be lived Through Jesus Christ's power. The power of the Holy Spirit.

Also -- a Lot of churches baptize shortly after a person Has accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. So it gives the Appearance of Being part of salvation. But the Fact is that a person accepts Jesus Christ -- acknowledges their need 1st -- repents -- and Then can be baptized. And there are Also churches that have a class For new believers -- as to what the Bible says about believers baptism. And beginning their New life with Jesus Christ. The importance Of Bible reading / prayer/ being with other fellow believers.

 

[Sue D.]

And, I've Never meant to suggest -- rejecting baptism by immersion. It IS a desire that the Holy Spirit puts within a person. If there's no desire To be -- then their salvation Could be questioned and make sure the person Is saved.