Baptism - Here we go again

[Reba1]

In that way our understanding comes from the father not the Son of man Jesus. a creation

not in my view...

 

[PloughBoy]

The Supremacy of the Son (HEBREWS 1)BSB

"So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs. ...For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”? OR AGAIN: “I will be His Father, and He will be My Son”? ...And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all God’s angels worship Him.”…

AND JESUS told That Devil, [You got it backwards] when the devil ask him to bow down and worship him, The LORD said after the devil said:

“All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.” “AWAY FROM ME,SATAN!” Jesus declared . "FOR IT IS WRITTEN": [you are too ]‘Worship the Lord YOUR God and serve Him only.’” [in other words I AM your LORD, I CREATED you! AND you serve ME! And the devil left after JESUS gave him The Command.

Now

 

[Garee]

not in my view...

It would seem to be his view . If we do not learn of the father then nothing would draw us to the Son .

The demonstration is the work of two. The father not seen working to empower the Son of man Jesus seen .

John 6 :45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

No Father, no Son .No Son, no Father. Can't have a new creation one without the other.

 

[Reba1]

It would seem to be his view . If we do not learn of the father then nothing would draw us to the Son .

The demonstration is the work of two. The father not seen working to empower the Son of man Jesus seen .

John 6 :45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

No Father, no Son .No Son, no Father. Can't have a new creation one without the other.

your post brings this passage to mind ..
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Garee]

1. I am no liar about the statements about GOD. And GOD the FATHER, and HIS WORD is NO LIAR either! When you make a Statement like this, The TRUTH of GOD cannot be in you.
"The SON of GOD did not Create all Things That are CREATED" And please don't play me with words, for I am not the one! I don't play GOD! So please don't play me with "junk dog" jumbling of words, and "cheap" translations of "The Original Copied Manuscript" of The WORDS GOD has spoken.
I am not the one. If you feel like playing , go play with "Pliable" in the Kindergarten Corner.

2. You may fool others, but not me. Slipping in that dogmatic "Pig Slop" about who Jesus is and determining His character. As if HE is a "Subordinate" of ..........The FATHER and The SPIRIT of The LIVING GOD!

...........A. How can a piece of dirt, a corrupted creature called man, with a "Finite" mind understand What "GOD" is. FOR GOD is Not A Creature neither is ..................HIS SON For "GOD" and HIS SON" is "INCOMPREHENSIBLE" By a "Finite" mind Neither can a corrupted creature can explain "GOD The ...................FATHER'S BEING and His .EXISTENCE and HIS SON's BEING and HIS SON"S EXISTENCE. [ A Finite Mind trying to comprehend a being that is 100% human and 100% Deity] A BEING that at anytime can step in & out of HIS "DIVINITY INTO HUMANITY" any time HE PLEASES.

Yes his word is Truth . . .no liar. But having a good zeal in a hope can end up as a false zeal. Like that of Saul before his conversion to Paul.

There are no infallible fleshly interpreter that umpire set between man seen and God not seen . The bible calls a daysman some call a Pope .

One is our good teaching master as Lord in heaven . he lovingly instructs His children (Christians ) we can offer our opinions or what the Bible calls heresies as private interpretations a persons fingerprint of what they believe Christ is teaching. In that way it is he that makes us different .The Apostle Paul said; what do we have that we have not received and if we have why boast as if it was not freely given from the hand or will of our God?

1 Corinthians 4:6-7 King James Version (KJV) And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

We must be careful how we hear His understandings as that which works in us, defending us in a sense of a the armor of God. Hoping to keep it on as it was lovingly commanded . In that way the shield of faith or power of the living word it is good God's signature written with his finger

"The SON of GOD did not Create all Things That are CREATED"

Hebrews 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

There is no reference of the Son of man as eternal God the creator


The flesh of the Son of man Jesus like all flesh is made up of corrupted dead rudiments of this world . It was needed for the propmised three days and nights demonstration ( the work of two. . .not as I will but you Father) The demonstration required flesh signified as sinful to put away the power of sin in those born again . . . Christians . Jesus knew no sin the Father worked with him to both will and empower the the Son of man . The government of two working together in perfect harmony and submissiveness as one God .

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The Son of God the eternal High Priest Melchezedek appeared in a theophany or vison to Abraham Jesus the Son of man fulfilled the old testament prophecy in order to establish the new kingdoms of priest from all the nations of the world both women and men alike .. .the gospel explosion .

In that way I would say the Son of man Jesus revealed the work of the Son of God the eternal High priest. Born again mankind is a representative of the Son of God as a kingdom of priest as ambassadors for Christ . . .Christians sent from the city of Christ prepared as his bride .


2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

Please let us remember that forums are for open discussion of subjects and try a little more to remember that the participants are not the subject.

Jesus is Lord

 

[Br. Bear]

And ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
Exodus 19:6

Greetings all,

Why? Why necessary? Everyone says that, but they never say why.

I'm always curious that the "why" is never answered.

Thanks,
Rhema

A quick explanation here of this quote from Rhema @Rhema

The question is, why was Jesus baptized?

There have been some answers offered but i would like to bring this up again for further consideration.

===========================

May i offer a start? This is only something for the cud.


When Moses first arrived, with the people of Israel, at the place where The LORD had spoken to Moses in/through the 'burning bush' Exodus 3:1 quite a number of 'things' were said and done. Looking at this account in Exodus 19, we see that the LORD told Moses to tell the people to wash their clothes. He also said something else.

Exodus 19:10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
Exodus 19:14

Also,

And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever.
Exodus 19:9a

=====================

as a side note, can you notice something(s) here? ...

And Moses went up unto God (1), and the LORD (2) called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Exodus 19:3

Different 'versions' might read differently, eg:

• And Moses has gone up to God, and YHWH calls to him out of the mountain, saying, “Thus you say to the house of Jacob, and declare to the sons of Israel:
• Moses went up to God, and God called to him out of the mountain, saying, "This is what you shall tell the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:
• Moses went up to God, and Yahweh called to him out of the mountain, saying, "This is what you shall tell the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:
• And Moses hath gone up unto God, and Jehovah calleth unto him out of the mount, saying, 'Thus dost thou say to the house of Jacob, and declare to the sons of Israel,

הָאֱלֹהִ֑ים(1) ha·'e·lo·him

יְהוָה֙(2) Yah·weh


And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
Exodus 19:21
Also verses 11, 22 and 24
Compare with verses 4-6


Bless you ....><>

And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai
Exodus 19:11

 

[Beetow]

The question is, why was Jesus baptized? There have been some answers
offered but i would like to bring this up again for further consideration.

A perpetual bull session typically never gets to the bottom of anything.
_

 

[Garee]

The question is, why was Jesus baptized?

To fulfill the ceremonial law .Given a desire form the unseen Father to serve as a Priest .You could say like Aarons two sons But Jesus did not add his own personal touch called strange fire (self edifying) as did Aarons two sons .

Jesus introducing the new kingdom of priest men and women after the order of Melchezedek from all the nations of the world .

 

[Rhema]

To fulfill the ceremonial law .

And just how did that fulfill the ceremonial law?

Rhema

Jesus introducing the new kingdom of priest men and women after the order of Melchezedek ...

Jesus never said anything about Melchisedec.

 

[Garee]

And just how did that fulfill the ceremonial law?

Rhema


Jesus never said anything about Melchisedec.

How? The shadow became sight according to the one promised outward demonstration.

Below are nine results of Jesus the Son of man from the tribe of Judah after the order of Melchisedec. John the Baptist the last of the old order it gave rise to John 3 :25 . Why Jesus from the tribe of Judah was performing the cerinimoinal law as a kingdom of priests all the nations of the world the promise of Joel

1. Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
2. Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
3. Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
4. Hebrews 7:1For this Melchisedec,king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
   
   
5. Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
   
   
6. Hebrews 7:11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec,and not be called after the order of Aaron?
   
   
7. Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
   
   
8. Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
9. Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

 

[Rhema]

How? The shadow became sight according to the one promised outward demonstration.

Below are nine results of Jesus the Son of man from the tribe of Judah after the order of Melchisedec. John the Baptist the last of the old order it gave rise to John 3 :25 . Why Jesus from the tribe of Judah was performing the cerinimoinal law as a kingdom of priests all the nations of the world the promise of Joel

1. Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
2. Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
3. Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
4. Hebrews 7:1For this Melchisedec,king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
   
   
5. Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
   
   
6. Hebrews 7:11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec,and not be called after the order of Aaron?
   
   
7. Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
   
   
8. Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
   
   
9. Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

All that, and yet NOTHING which addressed the actual question.

Just how did Jesus baptism fulfill the ceremonial law? ​

And NO, Garee, Jesus did not write the book of Hebrews. Jesus said NOTHING about Melchisedec. If he did, then where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John is such recoreded. (It isn't.) In other words, you are truly putting words into Jesus' mouth. Not a good thing.

Rhema

 

[Garee]

All that, and yet NOTHING which addressed the actual question.

Just how did Jesus baptism fulfill the ceremonial law? ​

And NO, Garee, Jesus did not write the book of Hebrews. Jesus said NOTHING about Melchisedec. If he did, then where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John is such recoreded. (It isn't.) In other words, you are truly putting words into Jesus' mouth. Not a good thing.

Rhema

Again the old testament shadow as a ceremony had no redeeming value . Water evaporates the work of the Holy Spirit does not. . . it abides with us in us .

Its not a self edifying work or what some call a "sign gift" as in . .. . I did it it proves I have the Holy Spirit.

Water as used throughout the Bible it signifies the unseen work of the Holy Spirit just as literal blood . We are not redeemed after the rudiments of the this corrupted world .

The exchange in John 3:25 involves unconverted Jews wondering why Jesus from the tribe of Judah was performing the ceremony as if he was of the tribe of Levi. After he got wet to signify he had a desire to enter the new priesthood (Melchezedek.) by the power of the Holy Spirit it was necessary to fulfill the prophecy . Therefore introducing the new era of priest the propmised of Joel , men and woman sent as apostles from all the nations of the world with the gospel or prophecy of Christ.

Romans 8 in that way as God's word informs us the Son of man Jesus needed to appear in the flesh and not a theophany ( .Actual flesh signified as sinful was needed to condemn sin in the corrupted flesh .) Again a vision using a theophany, Melchezedek to represent the Holy Spirit would not work to put away sin in the flesh. Flesh signified as sinful did the work which the letter of the law (death) could not do give new born again life .

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou (Jesus, the Son of man) art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek

The same theophany is used 9 times in the new testament . In Hebrew 7 it reveals to us the work of the unseen Holy Spirit as our high priest continually .

Hebrew 7:1-3 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

No longer after the order of the tribe of Levi .

Hebrews 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

 

[Bethel]

The issue isn't "should you be water baptized".
The issue is when a religious organization tries to elevate "water", as equal to the Blood of Jesus, by teaching that water saves you.
There is your deception, exposed.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Rhema and Garee
@Rhema @Garee

May i add something to this?

If we look at The Gospel according to Luke, Chapter 2, we note that:

A week later, when the time came for the baby to be circumcised, he was named Jesus, the name which the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

The time came for Joseph and Mary to perform the ceremony of purification, as the Law of Moses commanded. So they took the child to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord, as it is written in the law of the Lord: “Every first-born male is to be dedicated to the Lord.” They also went to offer a sacrifice of a pair of doves or two young pigeons, as required by the law of the Lord.

At that time there was a man named Simeon living in Jerusalem. He was a good, God-fearing man and was waiting for Israel to be saved. The Holy Spirit was with him and had assured him that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's promised Messiah. Led by the Spirit, Simeon went into the Temple. When the parents brought the child Jesus into the Temple to do for him what the Law required, Simeon took the child in his arms and gave thanks to God:

“Now, Lord, you have kept your promise,
and you may let your servant go in peace.
With my own eyes I have seen your salvation,
which you have prepared in the presence of all peoples:
A light to reveal your will to the Gentiles
and bring glory to your people Israel.”

The child's father and mother were amazed at the things Simeon said about him. Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother, “This child is chosen by God for the destruction and the salvation of many in Israel. He will be a sign from God which many people will speak against and so reveal their secret thoughts. And sorrow, like a sharp sword, will break your own heart.”

There was a very old prophet, a widow named Anna, daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher. She had been married for only seven years and was now eighty-four years old.(or, had been a widow eighty-four years.) She never left the Temple; day and night she worshiped God, fasting and praying. That very same hour she arrived and gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were waiting for God to set Jerusalem free.

When Joseph and Mary had finished doing all that was required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to their hometown of Nazareth in Galilee. The child grew and became strong; he was full of wisdom, and God's blessings were upon him.
Luke 2:21-40


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brad Huber]

All that, and yet NOTHING which addressed the actual question.

Just how did Jesus baptism fulfill the ceremonial law? ​

And NO, Garee, Jesus did not write the book of Hebrews. Jesus said NOTHING about Melchisedec. If he did, then where in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John is such recoreded. (It isn't.) In other words, you are truly putting words into Jesus' mouth. Not a good thing.

Rhema

So if Jesus didnt say it, its not true? Holy Spirit doesnt matter to you? Does it matter that Jesus never wrote anything that is recorded short of Him scribbling in the dirt? So its back to the Holy Spirit prompting the writers of the Gospel. That Holy Spirit is okay, but Paul didnt have it?

 

[Rhema]

Again the old testament shadow as a ceremony had no redeeming value .

Then why did God institute the ceremony? Either the ceremony was not created by God, or you're saying that something God put in place had no value.

Personally, I think a lot of people are seeing shadows. From my personal experience, most all of the Christians I know are very superstitious.

Water evaporates the work of the Holy Spirit does not. . . it abides with us in us .

This seems to change the purpose of water baptism from an outward sign of repentance to an outward sign of the anointing of the Holy Spirit. I'm not saying I disagree, but it would tend to show a VERY human characteristic of an understanding evolving or morphing from one thing into another. First an outward sign of sins being washed away, but then it changing into an outward sign where an anointing by water (baptism) is to show an anointing by the Holy Spirit, and so meanings shift and slide from one thing into another. This also happened when Christianity shifted from Jesus and Him resurrected (the Gospel of the early church) to Christ and Him crucified (a Pauline focus), after a re-interpretation of the Paschal Lamb was attributed to Jesus (a teaching that never came from Jesus' own lips).

Water as used throughout the Bible it signifies the unseen work of the Holy Spirit just as literal blood .

Your interpretation. One I disagree with thoroughly. One can "metaphor" the meaning into nonsense if chewed upon too often.

After he got wet to signify he had a desire to enter the new priesthood (Melchezedek.) by the power of the Holy Spirit it was necessary to fulfill the prophecy .

All I see is you repeating yourself. And at this point we need to stop until you can answer... WHAT prophecy? Just what exact prophecy are you saying was fulfilled by the water baptism of Jesus? (And yes, I sure am asking you to post the scripture reference for that prophecy.)

Thanks,
Rhema

PS: Was everyone baptized by John a signification of their desire to "enter the new priesthood"? Hardly. So then you would change the meaning of Jesus' baptism into something radically different from the meaning of the baptism for everybody else. (There goes the common brotherhood.) I just don't see anything in the text that declares Jesus' baptism was a "special" kind.

 

[Rhema]

So if Jesus didnt say it, its not true?

That would eliminate most if not all heresy, wouldn't it !!

Rhema

PS: I'll see if I can elaborate on this later, but I'm honored to be condemned as a Red Letter Christian.

 

[Rhema]

The issue is when a religious organization tries to elevate "water", as equal to the Blood of Jesus, by teaching that water saves you.

Then truly what should one do with this verse?

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

(Mark 16:16 KJV)​

Assuming, of course, that "baptized" means "water baptism" the text is what it says - it directly states, "AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved". Such doesn't come from "a religious organization" elevating anything.

Rhema

PS: A few options... maybe it doesn't mean "water" baptism, or ... maybe "a religious organization" altered the text ?? Let me know.

 

[Rhema]

The time came for Joseph and Mary to perform the ceremony of purification

Br. Bear, sorry if I am dense this evening, but what "ceremony of purification"? I don't see a "ceremony of purification" in the text.

“Every first-born male is to be dedicated to the Lord.”

I also don't see any "dedication". At a stretch, one might consider their actions as a declaration, in that every male is to be called holy to the Lord. Where in the OT is there any "dedication" ceremony described for such "calling"?

They also went to offer a sacrifice of a pair of doves or two young pigeons, as required by the law of the Lord.

Yes, this was for Mary. (cf. Lev 12:6-8)

When the parents brought the child Jesus into the Temple to do for him what the Law required,

It would be interesting to read the OT scripture about what this "to do for him (Jesus)" thing actually was.

Greetings Rhema and Garee
@Rhema @Garee

May i add something to this?

Was this passage a paraphrase? Might I ask which translation?

Again, sorry if I am dense, but I fail to see how this has any relation to the baptism of Jesus.

Rhema