Baptism - Here we go again

[Reba1]

You're doing the same thing you accuse others of. You're picking and choosing. You're choosing not to accept the passages that show the requirement of baptism.

agreed

 

[Reba1]

But Reba,

You're doing the same thing you accuse others of. You're picking and choosing. You're choosing not to accept the passages that show the requirement of baptism.

Firstly, concerning your statement about deathbed confessions, what about the one who was leaning towards belief but died just before making the decision? You're argument puts God in a box. God can save anyone He wants to save. If He wants to save someone who doesn't believe, He can. There's a difference between what God can and/or does/do and what we are "told" to do. We are told to be baptized. The promise of God is, to believe and be baptized. God has obligated Himself to save the one who believes and is baptized. That doesn't mean that someone who isn't can't be saved. It simply "assures" the one who does believe and is baptized that he/she will be saved. So, if one wants to make sure he/she will be saved he/she needs to believe and be baptized. If not he/she has to hope for the best.

Are you sure mans actions assure their salvation... All my 74 years i believed it was Jesus who saved the lost. You are telling me man can save himself.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Chapter and verse are quoted to ease looking up the context

 

[Butch5]

Are you sure mans actions assure their salvation... All my 74 years i believed it was Jesus who saved the lost. You are telling me man can save himself.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Chapter and verse are quoted to ease looking up the context

No, I'm not saying man can save himself. Paul equates man to being dead in sin. Thus, man can do nothing alone. However, God stepped in. Suppose someone falls off a boat in the ocean. They can't swim to shore and death is inevitable. Now suppose another boat comes along and sees the person and throws out a lifeline. If that person doesn't grab the rope they aren't going to be saved. Death would be inevitable. However, if they grab the rope and are pulled into the boat they can live. Did they save themselves? No, they were pulled to the safety of the boat. If the boat didn't come long they'd have had no chance. It was ultimately the people on the boat who saved them, but it did require that they grab the rope. It took action on both their parts, but ultimately without the boat they wouldn't have been saved.

 

[Reba1]

But Reba,

You're doing the same thing you accuse others of. You're picking and choosing. You're choosing not to accept the passages that show the requirement of baptism.

Firstly, concerning your statement about deathbed confessions, what about the one who was leaning towards belief but died just before making the decision? You're argument puts God in a box. God can save anyone He wants to save. If He wants to save someone who doesn't believe, He can. There's a difference between what God can and/or does/do and what we are "told" to do. We are told to be baptized. The promise of God is, to believe and be baptized. God has obligated Himself to save the one who believes and is baptized. That doesn't mean that someone who isn't can't be saved. It simply "assures" the one who does believe and is baptized that he/she will be saved. So, if one wants to make sure he/she will be saved he/she needs to believe and be baptized. If not he/she has to hope for the best.

And you told me i put God in a box? Butch which is it God can save anyone He wants to save or God has obligated Himself to save the one who believes and is baptized.

 

[Reba1]

@Butch5 you said Baptism assures one will be saved..... Kinda like once baptized always saved... It simply "assures" the one who does believe and is baptized that he/she will be saved.

 

[Reba1]

The promise of God is, to believe and be baptized.

What chapter and verse tells us the promise of God is , to believe and be baptized.

If i double post again i am having some computer troubles.

 

[Butch5]

What chapter and verse tells us the promise of God is , to believe and be baptized.

If i double post again i am having some computer troubles.

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
(Mk. 16:15-16 NKJ)

 

[Reba1]

15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
(Mk. 16:15-16 NKJ)

I just dont see, the same way as you , the connection of your words and the verses you quoted .
In general reading of Scripture i see Christ/Holy Spirit as the promise . Again i see mans actions in what you are calling the 'Promise of God '

 

[Butch5]

I just dont see, the same way as you , the connection of your words and the verses you quoted .
In general reading of Scripture i see Christ/Holy Spirit as the promise . Again i see mans actions in what you are calling the 'Promise of God '

Where in that passage do you see Christ/Holy Spirit as the promise? Yes, man's actions are involved.

 

[Reba1]

Where in that passage do you see Christ/Holy Spirit as the promise? Yes, man's actions are involved.

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act_2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We will not come to an agreement @Butch5 In reading your postings i read man as the central figure , which i no longer do. Christ to me is thee central figure .

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 you said Baptism assures one will be saved..... Kinda like once baptized always saved... It simply "assures" the one who does believe and is baptized that he/she will be saved.

No, not at all. One still needs to hold to the other requirements. One must continue to abide in Christ. One must continue in good deeds, etc. Let me ask you this. How is one forgiven of their sins if they are not baptized? Baptism is for the remission of sin.

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2 As it is written in the Prophets: "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, Who will prepare Your way before You."
3 "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:`Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.'"
4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (Mk. 1:1-4 NKJ)

Mark opens his gospel saying, "the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ". The first thing he mentions as "the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ" is baptism for the remission of sins.
Peter said,

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 NKJ)

When these men realized they had messed up they asked Peter, what should we do? He said repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Again, one of the first things he tells them is to be baptized for the remission of sins.

When Paul was on the road to Damascus Jesus appeared to him. He blinded him and he was that way until Jesus sent Ananias to him.

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord."
11 So the Lord said to him, "Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying.
12 "And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight."
13 Then Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 "And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name."
15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel.
16 "For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized. (Acts 9:10-18 NKJ)

Notice the first thing Paul did was arise and baptized. Now, some may argue that this is a baptism of the Spirit. However, we can see that it is not. Paul recounts this event later on.

"Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there,
13 "came to me; and he stood and said to me,`Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him.
14 "Then he said,`The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth.
15 `For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard.
16 `And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' (Acts 22:12-16 NKJ)

In Paul's recounting of the event he tells us plainly that he was told to arise and be baptized and wash away his sins. So, we see this is a baptism for the remission of sins, which is water baptism.

On a side note, notice too that he was told to be baptized, "calling on the name of the Lord". When Peter said that baptism saves he said it was an appeal to God unto a clean conscience.

18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
21 also to which an antitype doth now save us -- baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet. 3:18-21 YLT)

Peter says that in baptism there is an appeal to God unto a good conscience. Paul likewise was told to be baptized "calling on the name of the Lord". We see in these passages that there is an appeal to God for forgiveness in the act of baptism.

 

[Butch5]

Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Act_2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We will not come to an agreement @Butch5 In reading your postings i read man as the central figure , which i no longer do. Christ to me is thee central figure .

But these don't address Mark 16. We can see many promises from God. Receiving the Spirit is just one of many. I don't see how any of this addresses the issue we are discussing in Mark 16, 'he who believes and is baptized shall be saved'. They are the words from Jesus. Jesus said the words He spoke were not HIs but the Father's. Thus the Father has said that the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved. That's a promise isn't it? Do you see that as anything other than a promise?

 

[Garee]

You're making up your own definitions, Garee, and that's falsely handling any message from God. There's no further reason to discuss anything with someone who abuses the dictionary.

(There should be criminal penalties...)

Rhema

Thanks sorry you see it that way

The Bible defines the words within. To baptize is to wash.

How much or the amount used to represent the Holy Spirit is not part of the subject matter. . It could be showers , light rain as sprinkles , dew, or a flood . A personal choice some prefer not to get all wet. Baptism believers outward desire to become a member of the priesthood of believers it is a shadow of the unseen , it is non- effective .

His Baptism the words of His mouth empower as he gives us his understanding or ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to us. . not from us, we have no power of our own .

Power full words not H20

Deuteronomy 32 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Many kinds of baptisms (washings )

Leviticus 13:56 And if the priest look, and, behold, the plague be somewhat dark after the washing of it; then he shall rend it out of the garment, or out of the skin, or out of the warp, or out of the woof:

2 Samuel 11:2 And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon.

Nehemiah 4:23 So neither I, nor my brethren, nor my servants, nor the men of the guard which followed me, none of us put off our clothes, saving that every one put them off for washing.

Song of Solomon 4:2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them.

Song of Solomon 6:6 Thy teeth are as a flock of sheep which go up from the washing, whereof every one beareth twins, and there is not one barren among them.

Mark 7:4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Mark 7:8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Luke 5:2And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets.

Ephesians 5:26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Titus 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Hebrews 9:10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[Reba1]

But these don't address Mark 16. We can see many promises from God. Receiving the Spirit is just one of many. I don't see how any of this addresses the issue we are discussing in Mark 16, 'he who believes and is baptized shall be saved'. They are the words from Jesus. Jesus said the words He spoke were not HIs but the Father's. Thus the Father has said that the one who believes and is baptized shall be saved. That's a promise isn't it? Do you see that as anything other than a promise?

I see Him as the promise . He is sSalvation .

 

[Butch5]

I see Him as the promise . He is sSalvation .

But we're discussing Mark 16.

 

[Waggles]

1Peter 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

just believe the scriptures and obey

 

[Waggles]

1Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

 

[Garee]

1Peter 3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

just believe the scriptures and obey

Do you think through the water is saying the same through the word. . or though water of the word . . . the doctrines of God ?

 

[Waggles]

Do you think through the water is saying the same through the word. . or though water of the word . . . the doctrines of God ?

Peter is writing exactly what he means - water baptism is a requirement for believing the gospel and of salvation.
He is tutoring us with the example of the safe passage of Noah and family through the waters of the great flood.
Also Moses and the children of Israel were also saved by passing through the waters of the Red Sea.
And for us it is submergence in the waters of baptism and rising up out of water.
God is really into water and uses it to wash away sins and gives us living water to overcome sin.

 

[Reba1]

NOAH and the Children of Israel did not get wet they were not immersed.