Baptism - Here we go again

[Reba1]

Do not apply the failings of your family onto everybody else. Your grandmothers and you are responsible for your own walk with the Lord.
And just because some individuals are not the best examples of a church faith and doctrine is no excuse to paintbrush millions of others with the same alleged faults.
Pentecostal churches have millions of members worldwide where Spirit-filled saints baptized in water and the Spirit do walk in love and bear fruit of the Spirit.
In Pentecostal churches converts are baptised in water by full immersion and baptized in the Holy Spirit with the Bible sign of praying in tongues.
That is how we do it in accordance with scripture.
As to miracles and healings when some people are baptised in water or some people are baptized in the Spirit that is the work of God confirming His word and the gospel.

When was the last or first time you walked through a hospital praying for folks as they got up and walked out.

In Pentecostal churches converts are baptised in water by full immersion....in accordance with scripture.....

What is the book chapter and verse you read of full immersion.?

I exampled my family as to not example the the fully immersed Pentecostal AofG tongue talking pastor who was having affairs with church members, one of a number of men....
Maybe i am not being as clear as i think i am. .
If at all possible i believe a christian should be baptized i believe in full immersion. getting baptized does not save anyone. .Personally i was speaking in tongues before you were saved . Speaking in tongues does not save anyone.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Have you gone into all the world? That is how we do it in accordance with scripture.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

That is how we do it in accordance with scripture.

really? the verse says shall recover .. where is your faith that the hospitals in your area are not empty... Notice the passage does not say anything about the sick having faith.

Those questions are a couple good reasons to fully immerse ones self in 1 Cor 13

I am pleased , happy for your salvation Praise the Lord.

 

[PloughBoy]

Jesus said He who believes... AND... is baptized will be saved.

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Peter actually says baptism is one of the things that saves you.

1Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The Bible says if you are rejecting baptism, you are rejecting God.

Luke 7:30; But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

Usually when we think of multitudes being baptized we think of John the Baptist. But the Bible says Jesus (or rather His disciples) baptized more people than even John.

John 4:1; Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

Acts 2:38; Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Peter understood that baptism without repentance is just another bath.

Of course Paul was also baptized.

Acts 9:18; Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized

... to be continued ...

I know many do not understand "The Pillars" of The "Congregation" and that Christ said He was GOING to Build HIS "Congregation" and That the Gates of Hades will not Prevail" And how He is The Chief "Cornerstone"! For The Pillars Stood before "THE IMAGO DEI" AND HE GAVE Them a DIRECT Command.

Next: John the Baptist had a Baptism and JESUS had a "BAPTISM" John the Baptist, baptism was for "Identity', JESUS BAPTISM was unto "SALVATION" HIS BAPTISM was "THE SPIRIT of GOD."

This is grade school kindergarten material.

I can see plainly we are in The great fallen away! Christians fallen away from GOD'S Word.

JESUS! Who have "BEWITCHED them! from the "SIMPLICITY" That is in "Christ Jesus"

English Standard Version
“I baptize you with water for repentance, "BUT" he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and FIRE!.

WONDERING around in "THE WILDERNESS" for 40 years traveling the same path. That is only a 30 plus days Journey. sad,

And Only a Few are on FIRE on This PANEL, all others seems "LUKE WARM"! And only been Baptize by The Baptism of JOHN The Baptist, DUNK in COLD Water!......... Many of You seems to need The BAPTISM of JESUS CHRIST and Be BAPTIZE with "THE HOLY GHOST AND FIRE"! For You are Cold and you Generate no heat. For Our GOD is A CONSUMING FIRE!

SAID IT JESUS:

"I have come to ignite a fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


Tell them The TRUTH!

 

[Waggles]

really? the verse says shall recover .. where is your faith that the hospitals in your area are not empty... Notice the passage does not say anything about the sick having faith.

Your bitterness and resentments are duly noted.

 

[Waggles]

Speaking in tongues does not save anyone.

Not of itself but it is a pretty good headstart - the sign and proof that one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit - the promise from the Father.
But you are correct OSAS is a furphy and all disciples must endure and remain faithful unto the end.
I have seen many a saint quench the Spirit and return to the world or worse worldly churches.

 

[Reba1]

Your bitterness and resentments are duly noted.

I am not bitter nor resentful . The question was " really? the verse says shall recover .. where is your faith that the hospitals in your area are not empty... Notice the passage does not say anything about the sick having faith. " From you a snarky reply claiming i am bitter ...

 

[Sue D.]

Not of itself but it is a pretty good headstart - the sign and proof that one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit - the promise from the Father.
But you are correct OSAS is a furphy and all disciples must endure and remain faithful unto the end.
I have seen many a saint quench the Spirit and return to the world or worse worldly churches.

@Waggles -- maybe you should read about the gifts of the spirit a bit more. There are Lots of them and they are given By the Holy Spirit as He sees fit.

Referring to Acts 2 -- when the Day of Pentecost had fully come, vs 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
vs 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. vs 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance

At that time there were Jews -- devout men -- from every nation under heaven.

They were amazed because everyone was hearing / understanding what was being said in their own language.

A furphy is an Australian slang referring to something that is an erroneous or improbable but claiming to be truthful.

OSAS -- is based on Ephesians 1:13 and 14. So -- how do You interpret these verses. And Because of eternal security -- we Will be able to endure to the 'end'. Whatever the 'end' is considered to be.

 

[PloughBoy]

Not of itself but it is a pretty good headstart - the sign and proof that one has been baptized with the Holy Spirit - the promise from the Father.
But you are correct OSAS is a furphy and all disciples must endure and remain faithful unto the end.
I have seen many a saint quench the Spirit and return to the world or worse worldly churches.

That is called "APOSTASY" when they leave The FAITH That once was delivered to The Saints. A church does not determine your "sonship" only your 'christianity" AND Your christianity cannot obtain your "Salvation". neither will it get you into The Pearly Gates, that is beyond Beluah Land.

When Jesus get back Here and carry His "Congregation" back to HEAVEN He ain't taking no Churches Back with him, And They still will be FULL when we leave! And I am willing to bet my life on that! And there will be a lot Preachers in their Pulpits too! And A lot christians in Their Churches. Gazing up at the sky! Because at The Twinkling of an Eye we are Gone! And Have Left The Churches behind! They will be still Preaching, singing in The Choirs, giving money, praying long prayers, speaking in Tongues and Baptizing,.....And we are LONG GONE!................HALLELUJAH !

 

[Rhema]

First HOLY SPIRIT, we are already filled with the spirit when we are born again from above and have been washed and spiritually regenerated.

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.​

(Acts 19:1-5 KJV)​

Were these "certain disciples" saved or not?

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Well no wonder there are thousands of churches and faiths
even one simple commandment for water baptism generates a multitude of doctrines

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.​

(1 Corinthians 1:14-17 KJV)​

It would seem Paul thought baptism somewhat irrelevant to the gospel.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

@Waggles -- water baptism is not part of salvation.

​

​

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

(Mark 16:16 KJV)​

Many scholars remove this verse from the Bible. Are you in agreement with them? Because it does say that AND is baptized shall be saved. So yes, there is a baptism that is part of salvation.

Or ... is that you're disputing "baptized" means "water" as opposed to "fire baptism"?

God bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

People say baptism isn't required, and yet the Bible says it is. Who is right? You or the Bible?

Mark 16:16; He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Dear B-A-C,

Does the text actually say water baptism? (It really doesn't.)

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:​

(Matthew 3:11 KJV)​

Rejecting baptism is rejecting the will of God.

So is adding in words that aren't there, wouldn't you agree?

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

It's Possible that the RCC has attached some form of 'good works' as being essential To salvation.

Possible ??

Wouldn't it be best to find out what they actually preach before putting words into the mouth of others? It's only respectful. And it shouldn't take much time at all to grasp the RCC's doctrine of Soteriology.

That said, I'll leave you with this scripture verse:

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB)​

Respectfully yours,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

This verse does not say " but he who is not baptized will be condemned "

Well there ya go, the nose of the camel of Purgatory pushing in under the edge of the tent.

Rhema
(Not saying you, but others see this in such logical gymnastics.)

 

[Rhema]

The Protestant Reformation came to be Because some of the people were finally able to read Scripture for themselves and found some of the errors Of the RCC.

Dear Sue D.,

That assertion is just NOT consistent with history. Scripture was not available for the common person to "read for themselves" until AFTER certain priests saw inconsistencies between RCC practices and Bible texts and triggered the Reformation. ALL priests could read scripture just like Martin Luther could. It was the pride of the Pope that led to the schism. (And it was all about money.)


History is important,
Rhema

To drill down into more detail...

That didn't work, so they Protested and began to Reform outside of the RCC.

No... The common peasant reading the Bible did not protest. A bit of delving into history will show you that the Holy Roman Empire was governed by an Emperor elected by those called "Electors" (and that it ought to more correctly be called the Holy Roman Empire of the Germanic Nations). The sale of indulgences was draining the gold out of the German economy (into the construction of St. Peter's Basilica) and causing ruinous economic chaos. Martin Luther first wanted to debate whether indulgences had salvific merit or not (i.e. can you pay for salvation). The Pope refused, and excommunicated Martin Luther at the diet of Worms who was placed under a death sentence. The Emperor (not the Pope) felt that he had the political right to demand that the Germanic kingdoms remain under the Ecclesiastical Authority of the Pope, whereas the kings (dukes, etc.) of the Germanic nations that elected the Emperor PROTESTED against that specific POLITICAL power of the Emperor. And that's where the term comes from - it's a political term, not an ecclesiastical term. These rulers of the Germanic states implemented the teachings of Luther to keep from going bankrupt.

It Had been in Latin and the people were mainly peasants who couldn't read. They were subject to whatever they were told.

From a historical perspective, the RCC had Jerome author the Latin Vulgate precisely because everyone (those so educated) in the Roman Empire at that time could read Latin (and not Greek). Then Rome fell, and the dark ages descended on the western empire where the languages of Spanish, French, Italian, etc., arose, and Latin bifurcated. The RCC, then, in order to preserve the text of the Bible froze the scriptures in Latin so that its meaning would not be lost in translation, thereby saving the Bible.

Thus, the Methodist , Lutheran and Presbyterian churches and much later the Baptist churches emerged.

Lutheran... (Martin Luther) circa 1525
Presbyterian... (John Knox) circa 1560
Baptist... (Roger Williams, Rhode Island, though some dispute this) 1638
Methodist... (John Wesley) circa 1740

I find history both fascinating and crucial to one's faith.

 

[Rhema]

It started with Martin Luther, who initially wrote a list of RCC errors for discussion with the scholars,

Technically, just one error (with 95 parts) - Does the purchase of an indulgence have merit toward salvation ?

Thanks,
Rhema

(Boy, I still have a lot of catching up to do in this thread... maybe later...)

 

[Rhema]

There is nothing wrong with this.

Baptists here in the North East are just as emotional. But... dour, somber, staid, ... stalwart, grumpy(?). It "strict" an emotion?

Sorry, I digress.
Rhema

 

[Brother-Paul]

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.​

(Acts 19:1-5 KJV)​

Were these "certain disciples" saved or not?

Thanks,
Rhema

Another strongly debated piece of scripture that rumbles on to this day.

May I ask, which view do you have?

The discussion is usually based on Acts 19:1-7 KJV

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[Brother-Paul]

(Boy, I still have a lot of catching up to do in this thread... maybe later...)

Long time since I was called a boy.

 

[Garee]

"healing baptism" what is that??
People get healed at the time of their water baptism because God is blessing them and rewarding their faith.
Often people come up from the waters of baptism speaking in tongues as well > baptism of the Holy Spirit.
God confirms the spiritual significance and purpose of what He has commanded for us to do.

Like the tongues doctrine. The doctrine of baptism has its foundation in the Old Testament .Destroy the foundations of the doctrines then the doctrine is made to no effect by a oral tradition of I heard it through the grape vine

Baptism of water (H20 ) it is used as a shadow of the unseen eternal word called the "water of the word" . . the doctrines of God that fall like rain or inspired from above . It is founded in the Old Testament .

It is not a tool for self edification "I did it, it proves I have been born again".

That is the kind of mind set of those who make Jesus into a circus seal saying do a trick preform a miracle then we can confirm you are the one chosen by God. signs to wonder after gospel .

Wondering is not believing. It is why Jesus informed Nicodemus in regard to the greatest possible miracle (born again ) to wonder not but rather believe the work of Christ faithfulness working in a believer .not seek after lying sign to wonder or doubt by ?

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

That kind of idea. . "I did it it proves it" would represent what the bible calls strange fire (judgement) or someone's personal touch added to the word . The day that both of Aaron sons had a personal desire to join the priesthood they learned the lesson quickly. The sign confirmed no self edification .Those who compare themselves to themselves or measure themselves by their own self are not considered wise


2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that "commend themselves": but they measuring "themselves by themselves", and comparing "themselves among themselves", are not wise.

Leviticus 10:1-3 King James Version (KJV) And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. Then Moses said unto Aaron, This is it that the Lord spake, saying, I will be sanctified in them that come nigh me, and before all the people I will be glorified. And Aaron held his peace.

 

[Garee]

"healing baptism" what is that??
People get healed at the time of their water baptism because God is blessing them and rewarding their faith.
Often people come up from the waters of baptism speaking in tongues as well > baptism of the Holy Spirit.
God confirms the spiritual significance and purpose of what He has commanded for us to do.

What kind of healing ? We know water is essential for life . Can it be poured on the dead and it heal them? Can it take away false ride? what happens when it evaporates is more needed for healing?