Beyond being saved, what must christians really do?

[Downunder]

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and the true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am about to spew thee out of my mouth.
3:17 Because thou sayest [that], I am rich, and have become rich, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou be rich; and white garments, that thou be clothed and the shame of thy nakedness be not manifested,: and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou see.
3:19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Waggles]

Proverbs
3:1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments;

19:16 He who keeps the commandment keeps his life; he who despises the word will die.

17:2 A wise servant shall rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part in the inheritance among the brethren.

 

[Downunder]

A paste and copy from another thread but relevant to here

And in every epistle there are gems that sparkle in order to attract our attention; for us to take note of -
this is written to Pentecostal Spirit-filled Christians in the body of Christ:
Galatians 6:
1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.
8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

 

[KingJ]

It's OK. The Pharisees basically said Jesus was satanic. ( Matt 12:24; Luke 11:15; )

A message that mocks the cross is satanic.

A works based salvation mocks the cross.

 

[KingJ]

Our salvation DOES depend on works. Read the first few ports in 'The dreaded "works" doctrine'.
We aren't judged on what we believe, we are judged on what we do, and how we live.
Whether we obey the commandments or not, is how to tell if we know Jesus or not.

We judge on what we do, what we see. God judges the heart as only He can.

1Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Obeying commandments is inevitable if our hearts have Jesus.

You have cart before horse reasoning.

 

[complete]

(Q) Beyond being saved, what must Christians really do?

Hello there,

'Then said they unto Him,
"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said unto them,
"This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent."
(John 6:28-29)

The promise that we have in Christ Jesus is life. Life through His Name (2 Timothy 1:1). That is assured to them that believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
What can be lost is reward. The reward for faithfulness and enduring to the end.

Loving one another is the one sure sign to all that we are in Christ Jesus and He in us.

May God be glorified!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[KingJ]

I know ,for sometime now, I have been a thorn in many a side and a primary instagater in the perpetuation of this on going argument.

For those who support a " Works Salvation" and not a salvation by Grace alone, I salute you. Though it is scripture that we have the power to discern, I have never once thought about you being saved or not, that is up to God alone and can't or be ascertained by mere man.

@B-A-C and @Downunder , I have been pretty much an apponent of your "works" stance and I continue to be amazed at your amount of scripture you use to support your feelings. All be it, I think your interpretation is a bit skewed.

Looking at your ages, you have been at this for a long time and are, for what ever reason, set in your ways.

I have " sworn off" , atleast one of you ,many times but, I keep jumping in because I am just as convinced as you; sorry about my perpetuation of the argument and I should see that

The Bible encourages us to come to an agreement, maybe not on Doctrine but, at least, that Jesus is lord. I'm hopeful that we can agree on that....what that totally means is another thing!

I will try my best to stay out of this OSAS argument with the two of you; God Bless your thinking!

The hearts of BAC and Downunder is good. It is only their message that is wrong and terribly so.

They want to ensure people mean business with God and take warnings of hell and living in sin seriously.

What they don't care to grasp however (just note their evasiveness on 70% of my points made) is the fact that if you have a Christian worrying every second about their salvation, they become utterly useless at the one task they are given to do on Earth.

They must pray daily '''Lord, Lord, please don't send me to witness to prostitutes who desperately need you, rather keep me on my pc bashing some numbskulls''. ''I want to stay in a safe zone'' less I LOSE my salvation and spend ETERNITY in hell, like the unlucky poor sod you placed with the extremer sinners''.

The more you dig and scratch the smellier an anti-OSAS belief becomes.

 

[complete]

'For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty;
only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,
but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word,
even in this; "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
But if ye bite and devour one another,
take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.'
(Gal 5:13-15)

 

[complete]

Hello there,

If you read the last epistle Paul wrote, to Timothy. You can visualise the atmosphere prevailing around Timothy in Ephesus. Timothy is urged to hold fast to the form of sound words that he had heard from Paul, and to rise above the vain babbling and strife of tongues around Him, and show himself to be approved unto God, by rightly dividing the word of God, and not participating in the debate going on around him. For all in Asia had turned away from Paul and his message, and were engaged in arguing and striving about words to no profit. Subverting those that heard them and destroying the faith of some.

* We need to ensure that we do not also fall into the same trap.

* I was horrified recently when my words were attributed to Satan by a member in a thread of his making, for I cannot think of a worse accusation to make to a child of God. Yet that same member had previously opened a thread on loving one another!!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Born Again 2004]

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and the true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:
3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
3:16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am about to spew thee out of my mouth.
3:17 Because thou sayest [that], I am rich, and have become rich, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou be rich; and white garments, that thou be clothed and the shame of thy nakedness be not manifested,: and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou see.
3:19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The hearts of BAC and Downunder is good. It is only their message that is wrong and terribly so.

They want to ensure people mean business with God and take warnings of hell and living in sin seriously.

What they don't care to grasp however (just note their evasiveness on 70% of my points made) is the fact that if you have a Christian worrying every second about their salvation, they become utterly useless at the one task they are given to do on Earth.

They must pray daily '''Lord, Lord, please don't send me to witness to prostitutes who desperately need you, rather keep me on my pc bashing some numbskulls''. ''I want to stay in a safe zone'' less I LOSE my salvation and spend ETERNITY in hell, like the unlucky poor sod you placed with the extremer sinners''.

The more you dig and scratch the smellier an anti-OSAS belief becomes.

I give them all the credit for their ZEAL.
I think, aside from THEIR WORKS THEOLOGY ,they miss on the most important aspect of God, His Holliness ...they would rather depend on themselves than the one who created all of this, including them!

 

[Sue D.]

God IS Holy -- His desire is for all to come to salvation / relationship to Himself / that is possible Only through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are to be holy as He is holy. A people set apart.

If people can't see Christ in us -- Through our lives -- then Maybe He isn't residing in us.

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 13:5; Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"

Some Christians like to quote this verse, but it has little do with eternal security. First of all it's a bout money, and trusting God to take care of your material needs.
Second it says here.. "He Himself has said" ... He? When? Jesus never said this is any of the gospels. You won't find where He said this anywhere in the New Testament.

You have to go alll the way back to Deut 31:6; to find where He originally said this. This is of course in the old testament.

Deut 31:6; "Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you."

Again, this isn't really about eternal security here either, it's about God taking care of our circumstances.

Deut 31:7; Then Moses called to Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, "Be strong and courageous, for you shall go with this people into the land which the LORD has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall give it to them as an inheritance.
Deut 31:8; "The LORD is the one who goes ahead of you; He will be with you. He will not fail you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed."

But even though God was with Moses, Moses didn't make into the promised land.

Now it's funny people will quote this verse in Hebrews 13 to you, then when you show them all the scriptures where people forsook God, they will say something like... well, they didn't have the Holy Spirit inside them.
True, but they had God right there with them. They saw His miracles, heard His voice.. they knew who He was.
But here is the point.... God told the people in the old testament He wouldn't leave them or forsake them. People want to use this verse to say God will never leave or forsake them now.
Did God lie to people in the old testament? If He lied then, does He still lie now? People seem to think Somehow God/Jesus changed between the new testament and the old testament.

But yet 3 verses after Hebrews 13:5; above... is this verse.
Heb 13:8; Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Heb 3:7; Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8; DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9; WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10; "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
Heb 3:11; AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
Heb 3:12; Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Heb 3:17; And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18; And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Heb 4:1; Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
Heb 4:2; For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Some people say Jesus finished it on the cross... but it says here His works were finished before the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:6; Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:11; Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

 

[Sue D.]

Hi B-A-C -- it's the LOVE of money that's the root of all evil.

And, yes, God Has promised to take care of our needs -- not especially our Wants. We might Want a car, but a bicycle is what we can afford.

One thing you've brought up previously -- the relationship between God and Moses. and you end it with -- But Moses was Not allowed into the Promised Land. The Promised Land was Not their heaven. Okay -- symbolic Of.
Isn't there, maybe, a fine-line between 'doing the will of the Father' and the 'good works' that people feel they need to do to 'help secure' our salvation? Why does the guy go help with the city soup kitchen every weekend. Is it to help the needy? or to 'help' secure his own salvation. Hopefully it's Because Of his salvation, that he Has the Desire To help at the soup kitchen.

The 'entering into His rest' -- Hebrews. 'resting' in His salvation?!

And Jesus Christ Did say -- while on the cross -- as He died -- "It is finished". Jesus Christ Was the Final sacrifice needed -- Perfect Lamb of God. No more need for the shedding of innocent blood for sins.

God's Will Is that All would come to repentance. To a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. But He Also knew 'before the foundations of the world' -- exactly who would or would Not accept His gift of salvation.

Okay -- back to Moses and not being able to enter the Promised Land. Look at Deuteronomy 32: 48 - 52. "because you trespassed against Me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Wilderness of Zin, Because you did not hallow Me in the midst of the children of Israel. Wasn't that when he was told to speak to the rock for water and he hit it instead?

As a result -- in the book of Joshua -- Joshua takes his place.

Joshua 1:5 , 6,7. vs 5 "...As I was with Moses, so I will be with you, I will not leave you nor forsake you. vs 6 "Be strong and of good courage, for to this people you shall divide as an inheritance the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

That entire passage through vs 9. Wonderful passage.

 

[KingJ]

Proverbs
3:1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments;

19:16 He who keeps the commandment keeps his life; he who despises the word will die.

17:2 A wise servant shall rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part in the inheritance among the brethren.

This applies 100% to everyone before the cross.

After the cross, the commandment is to get saved John 3:3, John 3:16, for sinners (all of us) to sincerely repent Luke 5:32, accept Jesus into our hearts Rev 3:20 and allow God to make us new creations 2 Cor 5:17. Humans that have faith without any doubt that a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

The law is fulfilled. A Christian obeys commandments, plus. The commandments were eye for eye, we turn the left cheek.

You, BAC and Downunder are preaching half the truth.

 

[B-A-C]

Isn't there, maybe, a fine-line between 'doing the will of the Father' and the 'good works' that people feel they need to do to 'help secure' our salvation? Why does the guy go help with the city soup kitchen every weekend. Is it to help the needy? or to 'help' secure his own salvation. Hopefully it's Because Of his salvation, that he Has the Desire To help at the soup kitchen.

Matt 25:22; “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have earned two more talents.’
Matt 25:23; His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter the joy of your master.’
Matt 25:24; “Now the one who had received the one talent also came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not scatter seed.
Matt 25:25; And I was afraid, so I went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you still have what is yours.’
Matt 25:26; “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You worthless, lazy slave! Did you know that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I did not scatter seed?
Matt 25:27; Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; Therefore: take the talent away from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’
Matt 25:29; “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; And throw the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Does this sound like works are optional? Does this sound like Jesus is OK with us sitting around doing nothing with what He gave us?

I know some Christians... ( even some here on TalkJesus ) who refuse to do any good work at all (even help at the soup kitchen) even though they say they are saved.
I also know non-Christians, atheists, Muslims, Hindu's, and Buddhists that DO help in the soup kitchen.

But I actually agree with your point here. Because we have Jesus we should "want to" help others. But the Bible says even with Jesus watering and fertilizing some trees, they refuse to bear fruit.

 

[B-A-C]

This applies 100% to everyone before the cross.

Was this written before or after the cross?

1Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1Jn 5:2; By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2Jn 1:6; And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.

Did Jesus say this before or after the cross?

Matt 28:18; And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

 

[B-A-C]

Isn't there, maybe, a fine-line between 'doing the will of the Father' and the 'good works' that people feel they need to do to 'help secure' our salvation?

Example #2.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Example #3.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So, in any of these 3 examples, is loving people, helping people, giving to people an option? Or is it absolutely necessary?
You keep going back to "well, if I have Jesus I will just do these things naturally".

Great!! But the point is, either way, you better be doing them.

 

[B-A-C]

Isn't there, maybe, a fine-line between 'doing the will of the Father' and the 'good works' that people feel they need to do to 'help secure' our salvation?

Example #4.

Matt 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43; "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Matt 24:44; "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Matt 24:45; "Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 24:46; "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
Matt 24:47; "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Matt 24:48; ''But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
Matt 24:49; and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
Matt 24:50; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
Matt 24:51; and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Two servants in the master house, Jesus says both are his "slaves". Both say Jesus is their "master".
One is faithful and sensible, the other is cut up and thrown out.

Is obedience optional?
Yes, look over your shoulder... yes, be alert. (I could start a whole thread on just that).

 

[Born Again 2004]

Hi B-A-C -- it's the LOVE of money that's the root of all evil.

And, yes, God Has promised to take care of our needs -- not especially our Wants. We might Want a car, but a bicycle is what we can afford.

One thing you've brought up previously -- the relationship between God and Moses. and you end it with -- But Moses was Not allowed into the Promised Land. The Promised Land was Not their heaven. Okay -- symbolic Of.
Isn't there, maybe, a fine-line between 'doing the will of the Father' and the 'good works' that people feel they need to do to 'help secure' our salvation? Why does the guy go help with the city soup kitchen every weekend. Is it to help the needy? or to 'help' secure his own salvation. Hopefully it's Because Of his salvation, that he Has the Desire To help at the soup kitchen.

The 'entering into His rest' -- Hebrews. 'resting' in His salvation?!

And Jesus Christ Did say -- while on the cross -- as He died -- "It is finished". Jesus Christ Was the Final sacrifice needed -- Perfect Lamb of God. No more need for the shedding of innocent blood for sins.

God's Will Is that All would come to repentance. To a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. But He Also knew 'before the foundations of the world' -- exactly who would or would Not accept His gift of salvation.

Okay -- back to Moses and not being able to enter the Promised Land. Look at Deuteronomy 32: 48 - 52. "because you trespassed against Me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Wilderness of Zin, Because you did not hallow Me in the midst of the children of Israel. Wasn't that when he was told to speak to the rock for water and he hit it instead?

As a result -- in the book of Joshua -- Joshua takes his place.

Joshua 1:5 , 6,7. vs 5 "...As I was with Moses, so I will be with you, I will not leave you nor forsake you. vs 6 "Be strong and of good courage, for to this people you shall divide as an inheritance the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.

That entire passage through vs 9. Wonderful passage.

Miss Sue , sure hope you are wearing an helmet during these debates, banging your head against the wall causes headaches! LOL!

 

[Waggles]

A message that mocks the cross is satanic.
A works based salvation mocks the cross

@KingJ A special thanks to @Downunder and @B-A-C for opening my eyes as far as you have. I now realize with clarity that an anti-OSAS belief is borderline satanic."

The more you dig and scratch the smellier an anti-OSAS belief becomes

Well so much for the fruit of the spirit.
I pray that you have asbestos underwear in your wardrobe ...
Calling out other Christians as satanic is not wise.
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 5:22