Beyond being saved, what must christians really do?

[Downunder]

Why does it have to be supported "directly" by scripture when it does support God being perfect and not capable of making mistakes?!

1) God being perfect and not making mistakes has nothing to do with saving robots - for we are all under grace - He makes it to rain on the just and the unjust.
The grace of God is freely available unto all people. But disciples often fail and fall away - depart from the faith. That is not a mistake made by a God of love and mercy.
2) Scripture is there to teach us of salvation and it must directly do so. Matters of salvation cannot be hidden away from us who read our Bibles and learn from scripture.
Then we would have excuses as to our failures to endure unto the end. "Where was that in scripture?"

2Tim 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[Born Again 2004]

1) God being perfect and not making mistakes has nothing to do with saving robots - for we are all under grace - He makes it to rain on the just and the unjust.
The grace of God is freely available unto all people. But disciples often fail and fall away - depart from the faith. That is not a mistake made by a God of love and mercy.
2) Scripture is there to teach us of salvation and it must directly do so. Matters of salvation cannot be hidden away from us who read our Bibles and learn from scripture.
Then we would have excuses as to our failures to endure unto the end. "Where was that in scripture?"

2Tim 3:15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
3:17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

What you stated has nothing to do with the subject and, what qouted to me , is pure nonsensical with regard to the question I asked, I guess you just don't have answer to truth but

 

[Downunder]

Titus chapter 2:
11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds. 15 Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

In reading these verses that encapsulate the gospel we are directly taught that we as disciples of Christ Jesus are expected to fullfil certain criteria or benchmarks:
we are to live sober, upright and godly in this life (so what happens when we lapse and no longer live like this?)
we are to endure and have patience waiting for the appearance of God our Saviour (what happens when disciples stop waiting?)
to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself (what happens when disciples return to iniquity and are no longer pure?)
zealous of good works (that is often the easy part for even worldly people can do good works ).

Yes the prodigal son took his inheritance and squandered it in the world on wine, women and song and dwelt among swine (interesting Biblical reference there) But he came to his senses and repented and came back to his father;
who rejoiced that a sinner had come home. And they lived happily ever after.
But what of those who have departed from the faith and do not return? Do not repent? Remain in the world? That is not a mistake by God that He gave his grace to such people. Their sins are upon them. Their fickle hearts are their doing.
I know of my sister who never got the victory over cigarettes and so she over time quenched the Spirit. Now you would never know that she was once a Spirit-filled Christian. Her testimony and her walk have been corrupted.
Yes she still has the Holy Spirit in her for Jesus is ever faithful, but the Spirit is in hibernation waiting for her to come to her senses and repent. God will not force her to do so. She must love God and desire salvation.
The biggest danger for those who have fallen away and departed from the faith is time - they may either die or fail to repentant before our Lord returns.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
5:9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’
25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
25:12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Titus chapter 2:
11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds. 15 Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

In reading these verses that encapsulate the gospel we are directly taught that we as disciples of Christ Jesus are expected to fullfil certain criteria or benchmarks:
we are to live sober, upright and godly in this life (so what happens when we lapse and no longer live like this?)
we are to endure and have patience waiting for the appearance of God our Saviour (what happens when disciples stop waiting?)
to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself (what happens when disciples return to iniquity and are no longer pure?)
zealous of good works (that is often the easy part for even worldly people can do good works ).

Yes the prodigal son took his inheritance and squandered it in the world on wine, women and song and dwelt among swine (interesting Biblical reference there) But he came to his senses and repented and came back to his father;
who rejoiced that a sinner had come home. And they lived happily ever after.
But what of those who have departed from the faith and do not return? Do not repent? Remain in the world? That is not a mistake by God that He gave his grace to such people. Their sins are upon them. Their fickle hearts are their doing.
I know of my sister who never got the victory over cigarettes and so she over time quenched the Spirit. Now you would never know that she was once a Spirit-filled Christian. Her testimony and her walk have been corrupted.
Yes she still has the Holy Spirit in her for Jesus is ever faithful, but the Spirit is in hibernation waiting for her to come to her senses and repent. God will not force her to do so. She must love God and desire salvation.
The biggest danger for those who have fallen away and departed from the faith is time - they may either die or fail to repentant before our Lord returns.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
5:9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’
25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
25:12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

As far as I can see, you just "BABLE" on and absolutely nothing you are saying anyway, remotely supports your stance..
.NOTHING!

 

[Downunder]

 

[B-A-C]

It does get to a point sometimes, where all maturity and communication breaks down sometimes.
When there are no arguments left, insult are the next best thing.

 

[KingJ]

But even new things can get dirty again.

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

People are in prison... but then they "escape" (by the knowledge of Jesus)... but then they are "again" in prison. They weren't always in prison, they escaped for a while.
But "after washing" they go back to the vomit and the mud. We can't "wash" ourselves, only Jesus can make us clean. But some, after being cleaned, go back to the dirt.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

BAC this has been discussed at length before. It does not support anti-OSAS if you read and discern properly.

Lets start with ''knowledge of Jesus''. When someone has had the knowledge of Jesus and pulled the middle finger to Him, there is little to no hope left for them as they have rejected the light and this can only be because they have a love of the darkness / what is evil John 3:19. Having a knowledge of Jesus, basically means squat as far as being saved goes James 2:19. A Knowledge of Jesus is not on par with a revelation of Jesus that the Holy Spirit gives. Jesus would not speak to any such individual mentioned in that passage as he spoke to Peter in Matt 16:16-17, Peter received a revelation of Jesus from above.

''Dog returns to its own vomit''. Note it says 'dog'. It does not say, 'dog' who became a saint.

''After washing'' and ''escaped'' do not equate to being ''saved''. Picture people outside in the rain, they come in to a shelter, but they do not want to take part and stay at the shelter. Get employment at the shelter. Or, picture a refugee. Comes to the USA to find refuge, but never wants true citizenship or to be ''Americanized' despite the love and help shown.

It is like Heb 6:4 Note how it says they ''tasted''. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit.

 

[KingJ]

It's funny you mention that.

Ezek 28:13; "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.
Ezek 28:14; "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezek 28:15; "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.
Ezek 28:16; "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Instead of judging whether God is a fool or not, we should just take the Bible at it's word.

Satan was once a "good" angel. In fact all the angels that rebelled with Satan, the ones that went after "strange flesh" and "indulged in sexual immorality" were once good angels in heaven.

You need to better discern with angels and grasp that the context of my statement was ''humans becoming a devil''.

Angels were created with God from day 1. Their fall / the devils fall needs to be paralleled with Adam's fall. The devil became a 'devil' after his fall.

I am not amused at how you evade points raised in my posts.

Please try grasp the ''fact'' that the devil is now cast out of heaven, ''never'' to return again.

Instead of saying God is a fool for giving someone a chance to be saved.
Perhaps God is merciful in giving someone a chance to be saved.

That's the problem with all this "God knows the future/Calvinism" nonsense (I believe God DOES know the future) but he doesn't prevent anyone from trying to be saved.
Then people would have an excuse. Well God, I never accepted you because you never gave me a chance.
In fact He gives everyone a chance to accept Him, and then live for Him.

If they refuse Him, it's not because 'God is not a fool' it's because it's their personal choice.

Agreed. Calvinism is mankind putting God in a box. God is so much more. All of scripture points to God being 100% good. The fact that He is omniscient and good equates to true free will existing for all.

You quoted a scripture in Revelations that tells us that God will place the devil and wicked in hell with all the angels watching. He has nothing to hide.

If any in hell yelled ''God you never gave me a chance'', all the angels would frown at God, the fact that God has nothing to hide, needs to sink in to the mind of all Calvinists.

 

[KingJ]

I am sorry but I stopped asking silly questions about doctrine years ago.
I remember our religious instruction classes with our Catholic Catechisms, and how we were inventive with lots of "what if" such and such happened.
But then I grew up and put childish nonsense behind me.

Nothing childish about rational arguments.

I would love to laugh with you at my statement, but I can't because you actually believe it.

 

[KingJ]

According to Jesus if a believer has these signs following them then they are indeed a disciple, a believer.

I feel you need to re-read Matt 7:22.

No one is moving goal posts. Jesus declares this about saved believers. And they are these who he is referring to in Matthew 7 when he warns quite clearly that not all saved believers will enter the kingdom of Heaven because they have failed in continuing to do righteousness and have relapsed back into sinning (iniquity or lawlessness). Akin to the warnings in 1John.

According to Jesus if a believer has these signs following them then they are indeed a disciple, a believer.

Just not true. Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[KingJ]

and @KingJ
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. Even as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine; thus neither ye, unless ye abide in me.
Here is clear admonition that even if one abides in Christ (through the Holy Spirit) a disciple must continue to abide in Christ - this verse warns us that one can fail to abide in Christ.
and the consequences for this are ...
John 15:6 Unless one abide in me, he is cast forth as the branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Remember Lot's wife.

John is penned at ''the time Jesus walked the earth''. A Christian did not exist. Jesus was speaking to Jews. We can certainly learn from it though. Nothing Jesus said was in vein.

But we do have to ask the question like this, ''as a reborn Christian, what can we learn from this verse by Jesus''.

As such the following is evident. A Jew had to abide by the law. There was excommunication, death by stoning and fire if they did not. So the phrase ''cast into fire'' made perfect sense to them.

A Christian, has married the bridegroom and is now a ''new'' creation ''in'' Jesus.

Consider James 4:8 ''draw near to me and I will draw near to you''. This is the same as this verse in John. A Christian ''has'' drawn near to God. A Christian has taken the step ''after'' drawing near to God.

According to Paul it is not enough that we just ''draw near to God'''. We must go the whole nine yards and make Him Lord of our lives.

You and BAC are quoting verses that have to do with coming to Christ, not being in and with Christ. Judaism vs Christianity.

Jews had to abide in Christ / attend meetings / pay tithes. Christians are part of the vine / one with Jesus. Apples and oranges.

 

[Waggles]

 

[complete]

1 I am not skilled to understand
what God has willed, what God has planned;
I only know that at His right hand
is One Who is my Saviour!

2 I take Him at His word indeed:
“Christ died for sinners,” this I read;
for in my heart I find a need
of Him to be my Saviour!

3 That He should leave His place on high
and come for sinful man to die,
you count it strange? So once did I,
before I knew my Saviour!

4 And oh, that He fulfilled may see
the travail of His soul in me,
and with His work contented be,
as I with my dear Saviour!

5 Yes, living, dying, let me bring
my strength, my solace from this spring;
that He Who lives to be my King
once died to be my Saviour.


* God bless you @Waggles

 

[KingJ]

The problem in this thread is that too many are trying to put God in a box of their own understanding.

If you teach you can lose your salvation, you are teaching a works based salvation. How are you not?

A works based salvation arises when one cannot discern the difference between Judaism and Christianity.

Everyone who believes you can lose your salvation need to grasp three things.

1. God is not an idiot who grafts a devil into His family. God examines our hearts at depths of intent as only He can Jer 17:9-10. Jesus does not come into an unwilling heart. He is not a looter. All are welcome, many visit, many pray, many drink, not many convert.

2. 2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Paul is talking here to a heart condition. We can know that we are a Christian or not. Others can look at our works, we can look at our heart intent and actions.

3. Believing you can lose your salvation will inevitably result in you feeling like you have to constantly prove yourself to God. This is terribly unscriptural (unless you were a Jew). Christianity 101 speaks to a nature change, to doing works expecting no reward. Matt 11:28-30 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

A special thanks to @Downunder and @BAC for opening my eyes as far as you have. I now realize with clarity that an anti-OSAS belief is borderline satanic.

 

[B-A-C]

The problem in this thread is that too many are trying to put God in a box of their own understanding.

If you teach you can lose your salvation, you are teaching a works based salvation. How are you not?

Our salvation DOES depend on works. Read the first few ports in 'The dreaded "works" doctrine'.
We aren't judged on what we believe, we are judged on what we do, and how we live.
Whether we obey the commandments or not, is how to tell if we know Jesus or not.

3. Believing you can lose your salvation will inevitably result in you feeling like you have to constantly prove yourself to God. This is terribly unscriptural (unless you were a Jew). Christianity 101 speaks to a nature change, to doing works expecting no reward. Matt 11:28-30 span.bible { /*color: #D97070;*/ font-size: 16px; font-weight: 400; } span.bible a { /*color: #D97070;*/ /*background-color: #FFE9E9;*/ padding: 1px 4px; border-radius: 1px; } Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

1Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I know ,for sometime now, I have been a thorn in many a side and a primary instagater in the perpetuation of this on going argument.

For those who support a " Works Salvation" and not a salvation by Grace alone, I salute you. Though it is scripture that we have the power to discern, I have never once thought about you being saved or not, that is up to God alone and can't or be ascertained by mere man.

@B-A-C and @Downunder , I have been pretty much an apponent of your "works" stance and I continue to be amazed at your amount of scripture you use to support your feelings. All be it, I think your interpretation is a bit skewed.

Looking at your ages, you have been at this for a long time and are, for what ever reason, set in your ways.

I have " sworn off" , atleast one of you ,many times but, I keep jumping in because I am just as convinced as you; sorry about my perpetuation of the argument and I should see that

The Bible encourages us to come to an agreement, maybe not on Doctrine but, at least, that Jesus is lord. I'm hopeful that we can agree on that....what that totally means is another thing!

I will try my best to stay out of this OSAS argument with the two of you; God Bless your thinking!

 

[B-A-C]

I will try my best to stay out of this OSAS argument with the two of you; God Bless your thinking!

May He bless yours as well.

 

[B-A-C]

A special thanks to @Downunder and @BAC for opening my eyes as far as you have. I now realize with clarity that an anti-OSAS belief is borderline satanic.

It's OK. The Pharisees basically said Jesus was satanic. ( Matt 12:24; Luke 11:15; )

 

[Downunder]

Rev 2:1 To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: These things saith he who holdeth the seven stars in his right, who walketh midst the seven golden lampstands:
2:2 I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false;
2:3 and thou hast patience and didst bear for my name’s sake, and hast not grown weary.
2:4 But I have this against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.
2:5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; else I come to thee, and will move thy lampstand out of its place, except thou repent.
2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
2:7 Who hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

 

[Downunder]

Rev 3:7 And to the angel *of the church in Philadelphia write These things saith the holy one, the true, that hath the key of David, who openeth and none shall shut, and who shutteth and none openeth:
3:11 I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown.