Calvinism

[Saforg]

I read several threads here about Calvinism which came up in search engines that I had come across, and it gave me some concern to respond. If everyone is Totally depraved nobody can choose the cross unless they are irresistibly made to while others, from birth, are past over and not given sufficient grace to have the opportunity to receive God's mercy and grace. I compare this to someone who is drowning and you not doing anything to help them. Is this loving? Then also some who are embarrassed by this belief of theirs, will say God wants all to be saved, but has a secret will in which He doesn't. But that is a contradiction: claiming He wants all to be saved but provide sufficient grace for all? I don't understand how God can plead for the salvation of others when many of them God doesn't provide the enabling grace to receive the cross under Calvinism. It's mocking and berating. These things seem unrighteous. I hope none of you believe these things, for this is a false Christ. A Calvinist is unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, but instead, assumes regeneration and then thinks this forced repentance in belief. Since the gift of salvation is an offer it is not forced, so priding oneself over being selected iresistibly is not true repentance and faith.

 

[Smokey Jack]

Saforg,
Hello and welcome! You comments on Calv. show that you are thinking deeply. I agree with your conclusions. However, I also know people don't always have a good solid reason for not believing such orthodox theology as calvinism.

So, since God is not like Calvinism, what is He like.
If these contradictions do not seem logical, what is the nature of God really like?

 

[Saforg]

You comments on Calv. show that you are thinking deeply. I agree with your conclusions. However, I also know people don't always have a good solid reason for not believing such orthodox theology as calvinism. So, since God is not like Calvinism, what is He like. If these contradictions do not seem logical, what is the nature of God really like?

Just to be clear, orthodoxy theology of Calvinism is not orthodox Christianity of the apostles and next generation apostles. What is God really like then? How does He really save? That's easy. He predestinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8.29) our free-choice like Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel had: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS). God’s release from the penalty and power of sin is accomplished in the cross of His Son. He now lays before all men this salvation so that whoever wills to accept may be saved. Therefore, all 5 points of TULIP are wrong. Man is not Totally depraved, for you can actually help an old lady across the street.

 

[cman77]

I read several threads here about Calvinism which came up in search engines that I had come across, and it gave me some concern to respond. If everyone is Totally depraved nobody can choose the cross unless they are irresistibly made to while others, from birth, are past over and not given sufficient grace to have the opportunity to receive God's mercy and grace.

let me ask you. does the fact that god did not compel a certain person, leave that person with an excuse on the day of judgment? of course not! it is our own sin that condemns us. we all deserve to thrown into hell, christian and non christian alike. the fact that god chose to save some of us, is an act of pure mercy.

I compare this to someone who is drowning and you not doing anything to help them. Is this loving?

this is a good analogy. we are all drowning in our sin, and because of this we should be condemned for eternity. but answer this question for me: Why should god save us from it?

 

[Saforg]

the fact that god chose to save some of us, is an act of pure mercy.

God provides sufficient grace for all of us to have the choice and there is no love in irresistibly imposing salvation on some. If you don't have a conscience to realize it is evil to impose salvation or to pass over people by not providing them an opportunity for salvation, then who dare consider you a brother if you have a conscience like that?

this is a good analogy. we are all drowning in our sin, and because of this we should be condemned for eternity. but answer this question for me: Why should god save us from it?

We should not be condemned for hell for eternity just because we are born into sin. That would be like your god pushing the person in the water and then accusing him for drowning. When I talk to people like you, I become very concerned about the deception that is coming in the world through the Antichrist and how he will use Calvinism like Hitler did. He condemned the Jews to the gas chambers from birth and the Ayran race was irresistibly selected. God provides salvation for all because He is merciful, gracious and has a plan, a plan that does not include Calvinists.

 

[Smokey Jack]

Saforg,

I agree that Calvinism is not correct theology. However there is much incorrect theology floating around.

You say God has aplan that does not include calvinists. What plan is that since you also say God is loving to all.

 

[Saforg]

I agree that Calvinism is not correct theology. However there is much incorrect theology floating around.

You say God has aplan that does not include calvinists. What plan is that since you also say God is loving to all.

I agree much incorrect theology. Just because God is loving to all doesn't mean God saves all. Jesus spoke on Hell more than anyone and about many false Christs.

 

[Chad]

we are all drowning in our sin, and because of this we should be condemned for eternity. but answer this question for me: Why should god save us from it?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Read Some More on Calvinism:
http://www.talkjesus.com/scriptural-bible-answers/29361-calvinism.html

 

[HisFollower]

Beside (2 Pet 3:9) if we read into (John 3:16) with the Spirit of Truth we see that God so loved mankind that He gave them one last chance through His Son. It is our undeserving chance to repent, and bring forth fruits worthy of repentnace; that we may be accounted worthy to escape the wrath to come, and to stand before the Son of man at His coming.

 

[cman77]

all 5 points of TULIP are wrong./QUOTE]

i am going to go through each of these five points of Calvinism, and i hope to hear a reply for each of them.

T = Total Depravity: this means i am so corrupted by sin that i cannot do anything to please god. all of our good works are as filthy rags before him.

U = Unconditional Election: God chose those he would save in eternity past, not based on anything we did, but rather for his own good pleasure. Foreknew does not mean foresaw. God did not look the corridors of time and see if we would choose him and then base his election on that. that leaves our own salvation in our hands and takes gods sovereignty out of the picture. but this is not what the bible says. it says he foreknew us. this refers to an intimate relationship between god and his elect. in Genesis it says Adam knew his wife and she conceived. they had an intimate relationship. this is the same thing between Christ and his Bride(the Elect)


L = Limited Atonement: Christ died as a Ransom for His Elect. this is the one that seems to throw most people, though i can't see why. god died for his elect and only his elect. if he had died for everybody then everybody would be saved. unless you believe that Christs sacrifice isn't capable of fulfulling its purpose. If christ did set out to save every man, then he utterly failed. but Christ does not fail. and because he does not fail he could not have planned on saving every human being from there sin.


I = Irresistible Grace: those God chooses to give grace to will be saved. do you really think that if God chooses to save us, we have the ability to say no? do you think that when god knocked Paul off his horse, Paul had the ability to say no. Picture how that story would go.
God tells Paul to follow him. Paul tells God no. God says okay I'll o find someone else. this, of course, is ridiculous. has god's arm become so short that he iis not able to do what he wants?


P = Perseverance of the Saints: those god calls are saved, those he does not call are not saved. so if someone professes a faith in christ and then falls away, he was never truly saved. god keeps what is his. if i am his today i am his for eternity. if you don't believe this, then you don't believe that god is always capable of keeping what is his. if that were true then whats the point of being a christian? how can we trust in a god that can keep safe what is his?


if you are still not persuaded, ask yourself this question: which doctrine gives god more glory?

 

[Saforg]

T = Total Depravity: this means i am so corrupted by sin that i cannot do anything to please god. all of our good works are as filthy rags before him.

My advice is avoid Calvinism as much as you can in a world like this, because it will only deceive you, and in several different ways. If you are saved it will do damage to your faith if you are not discerning. Jesus died on the cross for your sins, not just your sins but the sins of the whole world. His grace was sufficient for all and pleads with all, whosoever is willing. If you are Total depraved such words are a meaningless charade. Just think how evil God would be if a person though was born into sin yet was given no grace to even have the opportunity to be saved. If you can't sense the evil of that who dare call you a brother in Christ? God is not a god of robots, but you do have a choice afforded you to obtain the gift of repentance and faith; it need not be irresistibly imposed on you unconditionally and limitedly. "What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31). "We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8). The god of Calvinism (Satan) says you can't believe, God says you can. Who are you going to place your trust in?

Nothing about needing to be regenerated before repentance and faith. Salvation is repentance and faith to be regenerated. The pride is this that you didn't have to repent and believe to be regenerated, but were just automatically regenerated and then allegedly made to repent and believe. Some people prefer a selfish salvation. This is not true repentance and faith-at least not for Christians. Can you see how that is selfish? No prior repentace and faith, but just presuming and assuming automatic selection? I know if I believed that, I would have oozing pride in me, but a Calvinist doesn't have a quickened conscience to realize. A Calvinist never really knows if he is saved or not because it was not his choice; that is why he works so hard to try to make up for his not knowing. But if you are truly saved you know (OSAS) no man can pluck you out of His hand, and your works flow from true regeneration by the Holy Spirit in agreement with the Word of God.

Calvin was the murdering Protestant Pope of Geneva and was really not so different than Hitler who proclaimed irresistibly and unconditionally limited non-elect Jews to be passed over from birth without recourse that they belong in the gas chambers and the Aryan race are to be irresistibly selected. How more effectively does one impart to you how evil Calvinism is and the potential evil it is capable of? History has recored Hitler couldn't have done what he did if it was not for the teachings of Calvinism that set the stage. Several authors have made this connection.

Satan says you are Totally depraved. God says you are still made in God's image, for His image never ceases to exist. Though fallen you are not Totally depraved. Satan teaches you this to control you, to bring you down and abuse you like men do towards men on forums or elsewhere. A sinner with propensity to sin doesn't mean you are Totally depraved. It rather means your sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. Unless you receive God's saving grace which He affords you the choice then you are eternally separated from God. The spiritual death here is lost communication (that's what death means) not loss of the image or loss of ability to receive what Jesus did for you on the cross. Partial depravity doesn't mean Total depravity or Total inability. You need to put on the full Armor of God against anyone who you know even remotely resembles a Calvinist. They are probably not saved and therefore, do not have saving faith. They don't understand spiritual life, though they may try and put on a show, their's is a counterfeit of dead works. Do not understimate the wiles of the Devil. He has been around for billions of years. We have only been walking on earth for a few decades. My prayers go out to you.

 

[OnceWasLost]

C-Man, it sounds like your saying that if we're elect, then no matter what we do or how we live our life, we'll be saved, and if we're not elect, then no matter what we do or how we live our life, we won't be saved, and there's nothing anyone can do about it either way. We're all just along for the ride.

Is that what Calvanism means?

 

[cman77]

C-Man, it sounds like your saying that if we're elect, then no matter what we do or how we live our life, we'll be saved, and if we're not elect, then no matter what we do or how we live our life, we won't be saved, and there's nothing anyone can do about it either way. We're all just along for the ride.

Is that what Calvanism means?

no, not by any means. what i am saying is that if we are called to be his elect, then we will obey his commands

 

[OnceWasLost]

Ok. I also saw on another Calvanism thread where Chad was talking about the difference between Calvanism and Hypercalvanism, so I think I'm getting some stuff cleared up for me.

 

[cman77]

Jesus died on the cross for your sins, not just your sins but the sins of the whole world.

in beginning of Mathew the angel tells Joseph he is to name the child Jesus because he will save HIS people from there sin.

Just think how evil God would be if a person though was born into sin yet was given no grace to even have the opportunity to be saved.

God is not capable of evil. God is not bound by any moral law and he does what he wishes according to his own good pleasure. NO man should dare call god evil. is jealousy a sin? for us it is, but God is Jealousy

"What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved"

that is what is needed to be saved. but uless god opened that mans eyes, he would not have been capable of making that decision. we are dead in our sin. what choice can a dead man make? if someone came to a dead corpse and said hey do you want me to bring you back to life? what answer would the man get? None! he is speaking to a dead person and his words are falling on deaf ears. it is the same with us. god resurrects us by his own choice and of ours.[/QUOTE]

The god of Calvinism (Satan) says you can't believe, God says you can. Who are you going to place your trust in?

are you saying that calvinists are being ruled by Satan? if you are you are a fool. considering the fact that every great reformation in church history was led by men who believed these doctrines, if it was Satan then he was working against himself. and i am quite certain that Satan would not be stupid enough to make that mistake. also i would never dare question the faith and Christianity of one of my Armenian brothers. you saying Calvinists are under the rule of Satan is quite a bold statement that you cannot back up no matter how hard you try.

Nothing about needing to be regenerated before repentance and faith. Salvation is repentance and faith to be regenerated. The pride is this that you didn't have to repent and believe to be regenerated

you cannot repent while still dead in your sin. you must be regenerated first, or in other words be brought to life spiritually. all those who are regenerated will repent.

A Calvinist never really knows if he is saved or not because it was not his choice;

this is not true, we know that we have been chosen by God, and know that it was based on anything we did or could have done. if it had been, and god loved me based on the fact that i loved him first, that would make gods love conditional, which it is not.

no man can pluck you out of His hand,

i agree completely, once god has chosen you it is not within the power of any man, including yourself, to turn away from god.

Calvin was the murdering Protestant Pope of Geneva and was really not so different than Hitler who proclaimed irresistibly and unconditionally limited non-elect Jews to be passed over from birth without recourse that they belong in the gas chambers and the Aryan race are to be irresistibly selected. How more effectively does one impart to you how evil Calvinism is and the potential evil it is capable of? History has recored Hitler couldn't have done what he did if it was not for the teachings of Calvinism that set the stage. Several authors have made this connection.

just to get this straight. Calvin did not invent this doctrine. it has been around since the beginnings of the Christian Church. Hitler was not influenced by Calvinism he was influenced by Darwinism. and if the name Calvin bothers you then lets use Augustine.

Satan says you are Totally depraved. God says you are still made in God's image, for His image never ceases to exist.

where in the bible does it say that we are STILL in the image of god?

Though fallen you are not Totally depraved. Satan teaches you this to control you, to bring you down and abuse you like men do towards men on forums or elsewhere. A sinner with propensity to sin doesn't mean you are Totally depraved. It rather means your sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. Unless you receive God's saving grace which He affords you the choice then you are eternally separated from God. The spiritual death here is lost communication (that's what death means) not loss of the image or loss of ability to receive what Jesus did for you on the cross. Partial depravity doesn't mean Total depravity or Total inability. You need to put on the full Armor of God against anyone who you know even remotely resembles a Calvinist. They are probably not saved and therefore, do not have saving faith. They don't understand spiritual life, though they may try and put on a show, their's is a counterfeit of dead works. Do not understimate the wiles of the Devil. He has been around for billions of years. We have only been walking on earth for a few decades. My prayers go out to you.

Answer this question WHAT CAN YOU DO TO PLEASE GOD?

 

[Gul Dukat]

The Calvinism debate seems to be everywhere; tends to generate a lot of heat..

 

[cman77]

that is true but i have never had some one call me a devil worshiper because i am a Calvinist

 

[Gul Dukat]

that is true but i have never had some one call me a devil worshiper because i am a Calvinist

Well the day is still young, maybe you can get that one out of the way...

Reminds me of the story about the Calvinist that fell down the stairs and broke his arm. When he stood up he said, "Well, at least I got that out of the way."

 

[cman77]

i dont get it

 

[Gul Dukat]

i dont get it

..destined to happen...he wasn't upset that it happened, just glad it was done...guess I have no comedic future on the big stage:embarasse