Calvinism

[DHC]

DHc, the matter of individual salvation is part of the matter of corporate election for God's purpose.
God's corporate election is for salvation, so how can you try to separate them?
To give an example, God chose the Jews according to His purpose, and salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22)

Hello James, if you carefully read your statement above there seems to be a contradiction.
You said "God's corporate election is for salvation", then you said "God chose the Jews".
Now if we follow your logic, then it follows that because Israel was chosen then Israel is saved.
We know that this is not true, then it follows that to be chosen for a purpose. Does not imply that salvation follows.
Hence James, there is a distinct difference between being chosen and saved.
Thus it could easily be said, chosen for a purpose and chosen for salvation.

If you want to be saved today, then become a member of Christ's body, the church.

That is the teaching of the Catholic church. Salvation is found only in Jesus Christ, the Gospel!
To submit that church membership is a reason for salvation is purely works based.
All cults teach this doctrine, you must attend our church!

Can you belong to Christ but not be in His church? No, and neither can you be in His church and not belong to Christ.

Yes James, you may be a christian without being in a church. The Bible never states that church is a requirement for salvation.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved! The thief on the cross never set foot in a church, he was saved.

I believe Christ did not dwell in John the Baptist so in this sense he was least.
Why this example on this topic? it doesn't indicate that John was not saved.

I included the verse where Jesus describes John as the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Because it clearly shows that John was in fact elect, an exception to the rule.
James I must say that your answer was illogical. There is no explanation for John being
the least in the kingdom of heaven except. John was indeed predestined and this necessarily
reduced his position in heaven.

]

If you wanted to be saved in the old testament, then become a Jew.

Being a member of the nation of Israel never qualified anyone for salvation.
Not in the Old Testament or in the New Testament. Membership of state or
church is meaningless in regards to the Gospel.

This is funny!, you are trying to prove that Paul believed in salvation by works and was unsure of his salvation, to prove that he was not a Calvinist. Am I right?
Even though he wrote that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works, lest any should boast.

Works are any form of belief system that a person adopts contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is only one name under heaven given to mankind for salvation.

If you must endure to the end of your life, this is not works. This is simply the belief
in Jesus must be maintained. Here is the supporting scripture James;

Matthew 13
3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “Listen! A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil.
6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away.
7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

You must endure in your belief in Jesus come what may!

 

[james1523]

Hello James, if you carefully read your statement above there seems to be a contradiction.
You said "God's corporate election is for salvation", then you said "God chose the Jews".
Now if we follow your logic, then it follows that because Israel was chosen then Israel is saved.
We know that this is not true, then it follows that to be chosen for a purpose. Does not imply that salvation follows.
Hence James, there is a distinct difference between being chosen and saved.
Thus it could easily be said, chosen for a purpose and chosen for salvation.

Yes Israel in the broadest sense, was saved. Who was it that God saved out of Egypt...the Chinese? Being chosen and being saved go hand in hand DHC, you cannot have one without the other. Noah was chosen, and then he and his family were saved. Israel was chosen, and saved out of Egypt. Christians are chosen, and saved out of sin and bondage, and our old nature.

That is the teaching of the Catholic church. Salvation is found only in Jesus Christ, the Gospel!
To submit that church membership is a reason for salvation is purely works based.
All cults teach this doctrine, you must attend our church!

When we believe in Christ we become part of His church, His body. We are not individually saved Christians DHC, we are saved because we are joined to the vine (Christ) and are joined with all the other branches. It's the teaching of the bible. I am not referring to any cult, denomination, or institution such as the Roman Catholic church.

Yes James, you may be a christian without being in a church. The Bible never states that church is a requirement for salvation.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only way to be saved! The thief on the cross never set foot in a church, he was saved.

Impossible. You cannot be a Christian without being part of the church. Rom 12:5 "so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others."

I included the verse where Jesus describes John as the least in the kingdom of heaven.
Because it clearly shows that John was in fact elect, an exception to the rule.
James I must say that your answer was illogical. There is no explanation for John being
the least in the kingdom of heaven except. John was indeed predestined and this necessarily
reduced his position in heaven.

This is a very poor example DHC because John the baptist was always a saved man, regardless of his position in heaven. He was chosen and he was also saved. Point proven that God's choice comes before our salvation. John had the Holy Spirit from birth.. entirely of God's decision and will and choice.

Being a member of the nation of Israel never qualified anyone for salvation.
Not in the Old Testament or in the New Testament. Membership of state or
church is meaningless in regards to the Gospel.

We have to become one of His people before the promises of salvation to His people apply to us.

Works are any form of belief system that a person adopts contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is only one name under heaven given to mankind for salvation.

If you must endure to the end of your life, this is not works. This is simply the belief
in Jesus must be maintained. Here is the supporting scripture James;

Matthew 13
3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “Listen! A sower went out to sow.
4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil.
6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away.
7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

You must endure in your belief in Jesus come what may!

The clear context of the verses about enduring faith, refer to escaping the trials in the tribulation period (or in fact any persecution or trial we may face on earth) , not our eternal salvation.
God is the author and finisher or our faith and our faith is a free gift. Our faith is not from ourself but from the indwelling Christ in us. Therefore any attempt to maintain, keep, or improve our faith is from the realm of works. You have added another requirement to simple faith in Christ for salvation, which is that the faith must endure. Therefore you do not believe in salvation by faith alone without works.

 

[DHC]

Hello James.

Thanks for the reply James, I do disagree of course. What we need to avoid is covering to many points
in one reply. This over complicates any attempt to understand the theological differences. So with this
in mind, read on.

May I ask how you would read the following verses. Please explain the last line especially, as I am curious
how you read these verses.

Romans 11
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,
provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

Thanks for the reply James, I do disagree of course. What we need to avoid is covering to many points
in one reply. This over complicates any attempt to understand the theological differences. So with this
in mind, read on.

May I ask how you would read the following verses. Please explain the last line especially, as I am curious
how you read these verses.

Romans 11
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,
provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

This refers to being cut-off from the blessings of the gentiles, or the church, as in excommunication. The context is clearly not personal individual salvation.

Another verse which uses the term "cut off" is this one:
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

If we were to say God will send us to hell for not bearing fruit.. then we have the doctrine of salvation by works and a Roman Catholic doctrine.

You cannot have it both ways DHC, either you believe that "cut off" means "sent to hell" , in which case you have to believe that lack of good works will send us to hell (as per John 15:2), or "cut off" does not mean loss of salvation at all.

If "cut off" refers to loss of eternal salvation then Jesus must have lied in John 10:27-29.

 

[DHC]

This refers to being cut-off from the blessings of the gentiles, or the church, as in excommunication. The context is clearly not personal individual salvation.
Another verse which uses the term "cut off" is this one:
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

If we were to say God will send us to hell for not bearing fruit.. then we have the doctrine of salvation by works and a Roman Catholic doctrine.

You cannot have it both ways DHC, either you believe that "cut off" means "sent to hell" , in which case you have to believe that lack of good works will send us to hell (as per John 15:2), or "cut off" does not mean loss of salvation at all.

If "cut off" refers to loss of eternal salvation then Jesus must have lied in John 10:27-29.

Hello James.

Here James is the context of Romans 11, it is very easy to verify.

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own estimation,
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

A very simple context is apparent, the context being Israel and the Gentiles.
Paul is explaining how the Gentiles are grafted in and why Israel was grafted out.
This chapter does not mention church or excommunication.

Israel was cut off because of unbelief, "they were broken off for their unbelief".
The Gentiles are grafted in by their belief, "but you stand by your faith".

So James, this chapter is not discussing the blessing of the Gentiles or the church.

I noticed that you singled out the phrase "cut off" and you quoted from John 15:2.
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit...

Here is your quote with an expanded context which should clarify what "cut off" actually means.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

This expanded quotation provides us with a useful understanding of the term "cut off".

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

There can be no argument that "cut off" means thrown into the fire. You will be burned if you do not bear fruit, the axe is ready.

8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

Proof of the membership in Christ is evident by the fruit, Love.

9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

As I said before, the Christian faith is an active demonstration of God's love.
This is the fruit and the proof of the election itself. You may well refer to this
as works, but this is simply what the scripture declares. As I said before "works"
are not a means of salvation. Christ is the means and it is the association in the
life of Christ that will bear the fruit.

I am not striving to furnish any theology James. It is not up to me to choose
a way of interpretating the scripture. Scripture states what we are to believe and
and what the necessary works are.

John 15
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Endurance or the bond with Christ must be maintained! "If you do not remain in me...".

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

Here James is the context of Romans 11; it is very easy to verify.

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own estimation,
that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

A very simple context is apparent, the context being Israel and the Gentiles.
Paul is explaining how the Gentiles are grafted in and why Israel was grafted out.
This chapter does not mention church or excommunication.

Israel was cut off because of unbelief, "they were broken off for their unbelief".
The Gentiles are grafted in by their belief, "but you stand by your faith".

So James, this chapter is not discussing the blessing of the Gentiles or the church.

I agree the context is Israel and Gentiles. But given this context, a doctrine which says we can lose our personal salvation cannot be proven... you are in fact taking this passage out of context and applying it to the loss of personal salvation (rather than excommunication from a corporate body), in order to prove your point.
And you are forgetting that this is written to the church in Rome, so the context being the church is very much apparent. That it refers to being cut off from the church will be proven by my next point.

I noticed that you singled out the phrase "cut off" and you quoted from John 15:2.
John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit...

Here is your quote with an expanded context which should clarify what "cut off" actually means.

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

This expanded quotation provides us with a useful understanding of the term "cut off".

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

There can be no argument that "cut off" means thrown into the fire. You will be burned if you do not bear fruit, the axe is ready.

Firstly, the meaning of "cut off":

Paul writes in Rom 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

Was Paul wishing that he would spend eternity in the lake of fire, i.e. lose his salvation? Not at all. Here the word "anathema" is used and this denotes a form of excommunication, as per 1 Cor 16:22. "Christ" in this sense refers to the Body of Christ. To "cut off" is to purge the old leaven, putting away the wicked person, withdrawing the improper ones from the communion of the church. It is not to be thrown into the eternal lake of fire, as you suppose.

The goal of this "cutting off" for a child of God is never eternal destruction in the lake of fire, but discipline and salvation, as this verse shows, applied to a man having sexual relations with his mother:
1 Cor 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.


Secondly, the meaning of "thrown into the fire":
You assume it is the lake of fire, for all eternity. But it could be the fire of God's temporal judgement, or the fire of purification, as gold is purified by fire.
If you interpret "fire" to mean the lake of fire, then perhaps you believe the fiery trial in 1 Peter 4:12 has something to do with being thrown into the lake of fire too?

Perhaps it is not the eternal tormenting fire, but the saving fire of purification:
1 Cor 3:15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames.

You confuse the fire of purification with the fire of eternal torment.
The goal of God's fire toward His children is chastisement and purification. It is for our good.
But the goal of God's fire (the lake of fire) is for eternal destruction of God's opponents. It is for their destruction.

If your child misbehaves you might send them out of the room ("cut them off" from your presence), but they don't stop being your child. And you definitely don't send them to the executioners chair.. (lake of fire).

8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.

Proof of the membership in Christ is evident by the fruit, Love.

9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.

As I said before, the Christian faith is an active demonstration of God's love.
This is the fruit and the proof of the election itself. You may well refer to this
as works, but this is simply what the scripture declares. As I said before "works"
are not a means of salvation. Christ is the means and it is the association in the
life of Christ that will bear the fruit.

I am not striving to furnish any theology James. It is not up to me to choose
a way of interpretating the scripture. Scripture states what we are to believe and
and what the necessary works are.

John 15
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Endurance or the bond with Christ must be maintained! "If you do not remain in me...".

If we must endure to the end to be saved, then how can anyone know they are saved until they reach the end of their life? How do you know that you will endure? Perhaps in 3 years time you will give up? If the bond with Christ is temporary, then you have a point. Maybe the Holy Spirit will leave at any time, maybe we will not endure.

But the bond with Christ is permanent, and this is why it is not our endurance which saves us, but the permanent bond we have with Christ. In fact, God created this bond, so there is nothing we do to maintain it. Just as there is nothing we must do to keep the Holy Spirit living within us. I have heard some very strange doctrines over the years, such as that we have to "call the Holy Spirit down", or that over the day the Holy Spirit leaks out of us like water leaking through a bucket with holes. But the scriptural truth is that the Holy Spirit is always present within us no matter what, even if we do very bad things. If the bond is permanent, then so is our salvation. This bond was created by God in spirit, we were born again, and this cannot be undone, we cannot be "unborn again":

2 Cor 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
1 Cor 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
1 Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 Pe 3:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you,

So the bond is in spirit, it is guaranteed, it is imperishable, it is eternal..can never perish, spoil or fade, kept in heaven for you.... it is permanent.

If salvation was not secure, then the scriptures would not be written to all Christians with such certainty as the words in 1 Peter 3:3-4.
It does not say "This inheritance is kept in heaven for those of you who endure to the end".

 

[DHC]

If we must endure to the end to be saved, then how can anyone know they are saved until they reach the end of their life? How do you know that you will endure? Perhaps in 3 years time you will give up? If the bond with Christ is temporary, then you have a point. Maybe the Holy Spirit will leave at any time, maybe we will not endure.

But the bond with Christ is permanent, and this is why it is not our endurance which saves us

If salvation was not secure, then the scriptures would not be written to all Christians with such certainty as the words in 1 Peter 3:3-4.
It does not say "This inheritance is kept in heaven for those of you who endure to the end".

Hello James.

I do appreciate your replies to my questions and statements.

Your claims are valid James, especially the following line.

"If we must endure to the end to be saved, then how can anyone know they are saved until they reach the end of their life?"

What use would the process of salvation be if it was unknown whether one
was actually saved in the first place. One could live the entire Christian life
and not be saved on judgement day. I can not imagine that God would ever
engineer a reconciliation process with an unknowlable outcome. After all
who administered this reconciliation? Us or God.

There are a few issues that have been very poorly handled by the church
over the centuries past. God's soveriengty and God's will and how this is
applied in respect to our salvation is one of the chief issues.

Above all things James, we need to know if we are saved, I agree.
It is this very concept that I will address in this post James.

I will ask you one very simple question James.

How do you know that you are in effect saved and not deceived?

How do you know that you are in fact one of the elect?

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

I do appreciate your replies to my questions and statements.

Your claims are valid James, especially the following line.

"If we must endure to the end to be saved, then how can anyone know they are saved until they reach the end of their life?"

What use would the process of salvation be if it was unknown whether one
was actually saved in the first place. One could live the entire Christian life
and not be saved on judgement day. I can not imagine that God would ever
engineer a reconciliation process with an unknowlable outcome. After all
who administered this reconciliation? Us or God.

There are a few issues that have been very poorly handled by the church
over the centuries past. God's soveriengty and God's will and how this is
applied in respect to our salvation is one of the chief issues.

Above all things James, we need to know if we are saved, I agree.
It is this very concept that I will address in this post James.

I will ask you one very simple question James.

How do you know that you are in effect saved and not deceived?

How do you know that you are in fact one of the elect?

All good points DHC.

How do we know we are one of the elect? , the answer is found here:
John 6:44“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

and
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

If we seek after Christ, are drawn to Him, have the desire to follow Christ and have come to Christ and have saving faith in Him, then we are elect, chosen and drawn by the Father. Basically our faith in Christ is evidence of our election. But our faith did not result in our election. Our election resulted in our faith, since Rom 3:10-12 says "no one seeks God" - even the act of seeking is because of election. We do not seek or choose God ourselves, have faith, and then become one of the elect. We can't choose and love God unless God has chosen and loved us first (1 John 4:19):

John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that remains, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you”

God elects us, causes us to seek Him, and then He gives us the faith. We must be "appointed to eternal life" (Acts 13:48).

Some say that the elect, the chosen, are all who hear the gospel preached, all who hear the Word of God. But this is not true because many hear the Word of God but never respond to it. This is because God must even "open our heart" to receive the Word (Acts 16:14), and He only opens the heart of the ones who are elect.

To dispel the common belief that we are 'born again' after we have faith, I will highlight that
Jesus said we must be born again...but then He said of the Holy Spirit:
Jn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

So to be born again the Spirit must be pleased to blow upon the person who will be saved. This is how God's choice in election is carried out practically.
So we are born again of the Spirit before we have saving faith. We are not born again because we have faith, we have faith because we are born again.

There is no verse in the bible that says we are born again because we have prayed the sinners prayer or have faith.
False converts are those who pray the sinner prayer or claim to believe in Christ without the Spirit having blown on them. They are just doing what they are told to do by the pastor out of sense of duty or religion, without the inner reality and experience of being born again. Then there is also the churches that baptize babies, and because the baby is baptized they are said to be saved. But probably 80% of those babies never become Christians when they grow up.. thus proving God does not the choosing, not the priest or pastor or parents. The churches that teach that man can choose God first and then be saved, are often the ones with the most deceived false converts. But the true church is comprised of those who are chosen and brought in by the Lord, not by man: Acts 2:47 "...And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

 

[blackbear4110]

When you read the whole 3rd chapter of 2 Peter you see that Peter is talking to believers about the end times and why Jesus is delaying his return. In 2 Peter 3:8, Peter identifies who he is talking about in verse 9, "Beloved". He is talking to believers about believers.

If you take the word beloved and place in context with verse 9 what he's saying is this.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,(beloved) not willing that any(beloved) should perish, but that all(beloved) should come to repentance.

I was actually inclined to disagree with you on this, and looked up the Greek words using Strong's Concordance and an Interlinear Bible...my full intention: to prove you wrong.
What I found was quite interesting, and causes me to stop and wonder if my thinking is correct as I have always assumed.

2 Peter 3:9
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[TD]3114 [e][/TD]
[TD]1519 [e][/TD]
[TD]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD]1014 [e][/TD]
[TD]5100 [e][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]hēgountai
[/TD]
[TD]alla
[/TD]
[TD]makrothymei
[/TD]
[TD]eis
[/TD]
[TD]hymas
[/TD]
[TD]mē
[/TD]
[TD]boulomenos
[/TD]
[TD]tinas
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ἡγοῦνται ,
[/TD]
[TD]ἀλλὰ
[/TD]
[TD]μακροθυμεῖ
[/TD]
[TD]εἰς
[/TD]
[TD]ὑμᾶς ,
[/TD]
[TD]μὴ
[/TD]
[TD]βουλόμενός
[/TD]
[TD]τινας
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]esteem
[/TD]
[TD]but
[/TD]
[TD]is patient
[/TD]
[TD]toward
[/TD]
[TD]you
[/TD]
[TD]not
[/TD]
[TD]willing
[/TD]
[TD][for] any
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

[TABLE="width: 500"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]622 [e][/TD]
[TD]235 [e][/TD]
[TD]3956 [e][/TD]
[TD]1519 [e][/TD]
[TD]3341 [e][/TD]
[TD]5562 [e][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]apolesthai
[/TD]
[TD]alla
[/TD]
[TD]pantas
[/TD]
[TD]eis
[/TD]
[TD]metanoian
[/TD]
[TD]chōrēsai
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ἀπολέσθαι ,
[/TD]
[TD]ἀλλὰ
[/TD]
[TD]πάντας
[/TD]
[TD]εἰς
[/TD]
[TD]μετάνοιαν
[/TD]
[TD]χωρῆσαι .
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]to perish
[/TD]
[TD]but
[/TD]
[TD]all
[/TD]
[TD]to
[/TD]
[TD]repentance
[/TD]
[TD]to come
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Patient:
(Strong's Greek Concordance)
Short Definition: I suffer long, have patience, am forbearing
Definition: I suffer long, have patience, am forbearing, perseverance.
(HELPSTM Word Studies)
Cognate: 3114 makrothyméō – properly, long-tempered (to defer anger), refusing to retaliate with anger, because of human reasoning.
[The literal sense if the term is "extending a long time (way)."]
3114 /makrothyméō ("showing divinely-directed patience") is "longsuffering" because it only expresses anger as the Lord directs (i.e. is the opposite of being "quick-tempered"). See 3115 (makrothymia).

Willing:
Short Definition: I will, intend, desire
Definition: I will, intend, desire, wish.
Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).
[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]


Perish:
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
[This is also the meaning of 622 /apóllymi dating back to Homer (900 bc.]


Repentance:
Short Definition: repentance, a change of mind
Definition: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.
Cognate: 3341 metánoia – literally, "a change of mind" ("after-thought"); repentance. See 3340 /metanoeō ("repent").


IF the word "willing" was referring to the simple "wanting" or "hoping" or "wishing" with no resolve to fulfil the plan, then it would indeed make sense that God "doesn't want any (referring to the whole world) to perish, but all (referring to the whole world) to come to repentance".
But that's not the word used.
So, when 2 Peter 3:9 says "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.", it actually means that God WILL NOT allow any to be completely and utterly destroyed, but that all WILL come to repentance. I don't see any other way to interpret this, unfortunately. Which means I have to admit that I am wrong in how I have always read this verse.
The delima we now have is: IF God, in His sovereignty, will not allow any to perish...and IF that any refers to the whole world...then every single human being would be saved. And we know that this is not true, especially looking back in history. So that would mean God isn't sovereign enough to do what He set out to do.
Therefore, this verse does in fact mean that God has a plan that He fully intends to carry out, and that plan is "none should perish, but all come to repentance".
Therefore, the meaning of the words and the context of the verse does indeed seem to be speaking of God's people who have been saved, i.e. the Beloved. And is not at all speaking of the whole world, including sinners.

Though may I point out and remind us all that we are sinners saved by grace. We must never forget from where we came, and from what God saved us from: our sin.

At this point, I still do not believe in Calvinism. I do not believe that God has "predestined" some to be saved, and others to go to Hell.
And if you wish to change my thinking, go ahead. But I won't be taking the word of any person, or their interpretation of Scripture. But on my own, in my free time, I will be studying the Scripture for myself, in prayer and asking the Holy Spirit to show me what the Bible says.
I would, however, enjoy studying any verses offered, whether the intention is to prove my point or change my mind.

 

[Bambi]

At this point, I still do not believe in Calvinism. I do not believe that God has "predestined" some to be saved, and others to go to Hell.
And if you wish to change my thinking, go ahead. But I won't be taking the word of any person, or their interpretation of Scripture. But on my own, in my free time, I will be studying the Scripture for myself, in prayer and asking the Holy Spirit to show me what the Bible says.
I would, however, enjoy studying any verses offered, whether the intention is to prove my point or change my mind.

I would definitely agree with you. Study. 2 Timothy 2:15.

Romans chapters 3 and 9, Ephesians chapter 1 would be a good place to read. When my husband first explained it to me about the doctrines of grace I didn't believe either. He really never took me to the scripture and showed me. But the Holy Spirit did. Every once in awhile a verse would be read in church or in my own studies and I would see election and limited atonement right there in the passage. God would open my eyes and I knew that it was true.

 

[DHC]

Hello James.

Read post number #108.

Hello James, a strong post as usual from you, not easy to deal with I must say.

Let us examine the verse below that you quoted.

John 15:16
“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that remains,
so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you”

I can prove James that the choosing of the apostles was for the purpose of ministry.
You are expanding the meaning of "chosen" beyond which the scripture indicates.
For some reason you see "chosen" as meaning elected to salvation?

Please read the following verse James.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen.

This was an election between two men for the role of an apostle. An election by lot
to the office of apostle. This is not election to salvation James, to stretch the word
"chosen" to mean eternal election is not advisable. Both men believed in Jesus,
both were already elect, which one was suitable, chosen. God chose Pharaoh for a task,
Pharaoh was not elect by any means. Although the destiny of Pharao is unknown.

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Again those who were "chosen" implies that salvation is through Christ. It is the people that believe in Jesus who are given the gift of faith.
Hence, the justification by faith in Christ is the means of salvation itself. A salvation not based on the human attempt at righteousness (law).
But a salvation by Grace, a free gift available to ALL who call on His name. In context Israel has been hardened, the Gentile are the chosen.



There is no difference in the love that God has for you and I. Nor is there any difference in the love that God has for humanity. All people are
God's creation, Christ reconciled all creation to His Father through His death. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is for all, no one is excluded James.
Christ was predestined not us, when we believe, we become the elect. Not elected, then we believe and the we are saved. That is not what
the scripture narrates.

I would like to see your interpretation of the following verses.

Matthew 22
4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, tell those who have been invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner;
my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.
5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,
6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.
7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

Read post number #108.

Hello James, a strong post as usual from you, not easy to deal with I must say.

Let us examine the verse below that you quoted.

John 15:16
“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that remains,
so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you”

I can prove James that the choosing of the apostles was for the purpose of ministry.
You are expanding the meaning of "chosen" beyond which the scripture indicates.
For some reason you see "chosen" as meaning elected to salvation?

Please read the following verse James.

Acts 1:24
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen.

This was an election between two men for the role of an apostle. An election by lot
to the office of apostle. This is not election to salvation James, to stretch the word
"chosen" to mean eternal election is not advisable. Both men believed in Jesus,
both were already elect, which one was suitable, chosen. God chose Pharaoh for a task,
Pharaoh was not elect by any means. Although the destiny of Pharaoh is unknown.

I see chosen as both elected to ministry and elected to salvation. The reason is simple: God does not elect to ministry anyone who is not saved, and anyone who is not saved cannot be elected to ministry. And everyone who is saved is called to ministry (I do not believe in clergy/laity distinction).

I believe the example you gave in Acts is insufficient to prove your point because it is an example of those who are already saved (those who know Jesus) being set apart (from the general ministry of the church ) for a specific ministry. But in the calling of the 12 disciples they were called as unbelievers (or those who did not know Christ) - not only for a specific ministry, but also to be saved (or, in the case of Judas Iscariot, called to be damned).

Romans 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Again those who were "chosen" implies that salvation is through Christ. It is the people that believe in Jesus who are given the gift of faith.
Hence, the justification by faith in Christ is the means of salvation itself. A salvation not based on the human attempt at righteousness (law).
But a salvation by Grace, a free gift available to ALL who call on His name. In context Israel has been hardened, the Gentile are the chosen.

Regarding Romans 11:7, the seekers did not find what they were looking for because they were not chosen. This is further proof that God's election comes before faith.

Salvation is a free gift to all who call on His name. In context Israel has been hardened, the Gentile are the chosen.

You are correct that the context is not the choosing of individuals to election, however, the choosing of individuals to election is implied within this context. Afterall.. if the Gentiles are chosen, this means God has chosen a number of individual Gentiles to be saved. Does Israel being hardened mean that NO Israelites are saved? No.. and neither does Gentiles being chosen mean that all Gentiles are saved. The context of Israel and Gentile makes no difference to the matter of individual election. God poured the Holy Spirit out upon the Gentiles too. But God will elect each individual Israelite or Gentile to salvation as He chooses.

You have said that salvation is a free gift to all who call on His name. I will point out that calling upon His name is not initiated by us, but by God. This is proven by these verses: Romans 10:14-15
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? and how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

The steps are: sending, preaching, hearing, believing, calling, salvation.

I underlined "unless they are sent" in verse 15 because this provides the clue. Who is the one who sends the preachers, calls the apostles and gifts the church with evangelists? The answer is God:
John 17:18 "As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world."

Who is doing the preaching?:
John 12:49 "For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."

Who enables the hearing?:
Acts 16:14 "....The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

Who gives the measure of faith?:
Rom 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Who does the calling? We do.

So now for a tongue-twister:
Our salvation is a result of our calling which is out of the measure of faith which God has given us in response to the opening of our hearts by God to the preached Word which was given by God to the preachers which were sent by God.

So we have nothing to boast about in our salvation it is because of God's mercy and grace: God choosing to let us hear the spoken Word , opening our hearts, and giving us the measure of faith with which we can call upon Him to be saved. This is all done by the Holy Spirit who like the wind, blows wherever He wishes.

Romans 11:7-8 (NIV) shows that only the elect receive salvation but the rest are actively prevented from believing by a spirit of stupor:
Romans 11:7 7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened

verse 8 "“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”"


And this is an elect chosen by grace:
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Grace is God's unmerited favor. Nothing merits God's favor, not even our faith.
If God saved us because of our faith, then this faith is something we could boast in, and grace would no longer be grace.

There is no difference in the love that God has for you and I. Nor is there any difference in the love that God has for humanity. All people are
God's creation, Christ reconciled all creation to His Father through His death. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is for all, no one is excluded James.
Christ was predestined not us, when we believe, we become the elect. Not elected, then we believe and the we are saved. That is not what
the scripture narrates.

Scripture says "all who were chosen for eternal life believed", not "all who believed were chosen for eternal life":
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

No one is excluded? Actually God chose to exclude the people of Asia from the Gospel for a time:
Acts 16:6 Next Paul and Silas traveled through the area of Phrygia and Galatia, because the Holy Spirit had prevented them from preaching the word in the province of Asia at that time.

Jesus died for all but not all will be saved. In the general sense , yes Jesus died for all. In the specific sense, Jesus died only for those who have faith and call upon His name.
God desires all men to be saved but not all will be saved because only those He has chosen will be saved.
This seems to make no sense but it's like the question "why do we have to pray when God already knows what we need before we ask Him?".
If we want to know why, the answer is found here:
Isaiah 55:8 ""For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD."
Rom 9:20 "But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'""

I would like to see your interpretation of the following verses.

Matthew 22
4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, tell those who have been invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner;
my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.
5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,
6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.
7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.

Matt 22:8 refers to the Jews who were called but not ready. This also shows that we must be invited first (that is, we do not invite ourselves).

 

[Puddleglum]

There is no such thing as Jews Greeks etc when one is in Christ.
The grafting in is to become a Christian, we are the roots and all and this is Israel in it's fulfillment.
The only way one can fail is to fail in Christ, as in being lead astray following a false jesus, and i think many do as such.
If one does not know to be in Christ is to be an Israel, you must be following the wrong Jesus.
Christianity inherited Israel. the people who call themselves Jew are not Israel because they reject Christ, so how can they be Israel ?
To reject Jesus Christ is to be in darkness. nothing comes from darkness, nothing ! the Jews will come to Jesus Christ in time, as God is not finished with them. they are to come to Christ !
Do some of you think there is more to Christ, like in Christ is not the one, or another is coming who is his superior ?
The Jews are barking up the wrong tree, why look to them as their is nothing their. look to Jesus Christ he is the begining and the end ! what don't people get with that ? their is nothing more. or is it because one is of little faith.
How many full blood Jews are their today ? none ! and was their never was such a thing, not really.

 

[DHC]

There is no such thing as Jews Greeks etc when one is in Christ.
The grafting in is to become a Christian, we are the roots and all and this is Israel in it's fulfillment.
The only way one can fail is to fail in Christ, as in being lead astray following a false jesus, and i think many do as such.
If one does not know to be in Christ is to be an Israel, you must be following the wrong Jesus.
Christianity inherited Israel. the people who call themselves Jew are not Israel because they reject Christ, so how can they be Israel ?
To reject Jesus Christ is to be in darkness. nothing comes from darkness, nothing ! the Jews will come to Jesus Christ in time, as God is not finished with them. they are to come to Christ !
Do some of you think there is more to Christ, like in Christ is not the one, or another is coming who is his superior ?
The Jews are barking up the wrong tree, why look to them as their is nothing their. look to Jesus Christ he is the begining and the end ! what don't people get with that ? their is nothing more. or is it because one is of little faith.
How many full blood Jews are their today ? none ! and was their never was such a thing, not really.

Hello Puddlegum.

You seem to be confused between the Old Covenant and the New Testament (covenant).

The Old Covenant was between God and Israel, a covenant of law, a covenant of works.
A national covenant, a physical covenant by agreement between the two parties.

The New Testament is between Jesus and His Father, a New Testament not
based on works or law. The New testament is based on Christ, the agreement
is between the Son and the Father, Jesus signed the agreement in His blood.

Physical Israel had an agreement with God to be obedient to the law.
Moses was the mediator, then the priests took over. The agreement
was dissolved due to the failure of Israel to obey the terms of the covenant.

Our New Testament is permanent, spiritual and eternal, guaranteed by God Himself.
It is vastly superior to the old physical, flesh covenant based on works or obedience.

We are heirs to this New Will or Testament by belief in Jesus Christ, this is not by works.
This is not based on our performance, it is a free gift, by Grace lest you should boast.

Get yourself a dictionary and look up Covenant and Testament.
Then read the letter to the Hebrews, this should clear up any misunderstanding.
Try not to mix the old with the new otherwise a serious tear will occur.

 

[DHC]

I see chosen as both elected to ministry and elected to salvation. The reason is simple: God does not elect to ministry anyone who is not saved, and anyone who is not saved cannot be elected to ministry. And everyone who is saved is called to ministry (I do not believe in clergy/laity distinction).

Hello James, I strive to contain the posts to ten lines or less.
So I will answer your post with simple posts.

King Saul was elected to ministry was Saul saved?

 

[james1523]

Hello James, I strive to contain the posts to ten lines or less.
So I will answer your post with simple posts.

King Saul was elected to ministry was Saul saved?

I believe Saul was saved. Despite his failures and disobedience, Saul remained in the office of a king and was anointed with the Holy Spirit (1 Samuel 26:9). And the prophet Samuel told Saul that they would be together in Samuel 28:19, which indicates that Saul was saved as was the prophet Samuel. As I've said before, what makes one a saved person is not their obedience, endurance or any merit of their own, but whether they are a child of God or not. If eternal security was not true, then there would be no need for God to chastise his children (Heb 12:6), he'd simply send them all to hell with the unbelievers. I believe that at the heart of the false doctrine that God sends his children to hell.. is failing to understand the clear difference between a believer and an unbeliever, or the new creation and the old creation.

 

[DHC]

I believe Saul was saved. Despite his failures and disobedience, Saul remained in the office of a king and was anointed with the Holy Spirit (1 Samuel 26:9). And the prophet Samuel told Saul that they would be together in Samuel 28:19, which indicates that Saul was saved as was the prophet Samuel. As I've said before, what makes one a saved person is not their obedience, endurance or any merit of their own, but whether they are a child of God or not. If eternal security was not true, then there would be no need for God to chastise his children (Heb 12:6), he'd simply send them all to hell with the unbelievers. I believe that at the heart of the false doctrine that God sends his children to hell.. is failing to understand the clear difference between a believer and an unbeliever, or the new creation and the old creation.

Hello James, so the verses from Chronicles would be disregarded?

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord
which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
14 and did not inquire of the Lord. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello Puddlegum.

You seem to be confused between the Old Covenant and the New Testament (covenant).

The Old Covenant was between God and Israel, a covenant of law, a covenant of works.
A national covenant, a physical covenant by agreement between the two parties.

The New Testament is between Jesus and His Father, a New Testament not
based on works or law. The New testament is based on Christ, the agreement
is between the Son and the Father, Jesus signed the agreement in His blood.

Physical Israel had an agreement with God to be obedient to the law.
Moses was the mediator, then the priests took over. The agreement
was dissolved due to the failure of Israel to obey the terms of the covenant.

Our New Testament is permanent, spiritual and eternal, guaranteed by God Himself.
It is vastly superior to the old physical, flesh covenant based on works or obedience.

We are heirs to this New Will or Testament by belief in Jesus Christ, this is not by works.
This is not based on our performance, it is a free gift, by Grace lest you should boast.

Get yourself a dictionary and look up Covenant and Testament.
Then read the letter to the Hebrews, this should clear up any misunderstanding.
Try not to mix the old with the new otherwise a serious tear will occur.

Not confused at all, who are the Christians then if they are not the people of God ? the people of God is Israel that is what it means you know.
True Israel indeed were the Holy Prophets Jacob Holy Moses, etc as they are the people of God in fact, being a jew or a descendant of an Israel tribe does not make one Israel at all.
If Christians are not the people of God then they are not Christians at all.
Why do you think Jesus said, go to the people of Israel and if they reject you, to abandon them, as they are not true. "wipe the dust off your feet" ?
Israel does never end, it is the same from the beginning, Jesus is the beginning and the end. Israel never fails and never has ? how can a people of God fail ? it is impossible. the people who failed turned away from God and this is not Israel but just the jews worshiping idols. there were a number of true Israel in the fall and they knew who Jesus Christ was and they became Christians.
All true Christians do the works of God in Jesus Christ and if they do not the work in him they are not his at all and never were.
Faith with out the works ( in Christ ) is dead. and how many times is this said in the Bible ?
No wonder the so called christianity of today is failing, just like the jews of old did. Idolatry is rampant now due to the simplistic shallowness of belief.
This Calvin etc so called christianity has failed and there is no hope for it as it's day is finished and we have all these fools looking to the jew for salvation, talk about Evil or sick !
We do not follow in the Law as they did, but Jesus never abandoned the Law at all, but put it into perspective. Grace is above all.
Show me one place that Jesus him self said he came to abandon the Law. but he did say he did not come to abandon the Law.
Now if one is going to claim to be a follower of Christ, why not follow in his words.

 

[james1523]

Hello James, so the verses from Chronicles would be disregarded?

1 Chronicles 10
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord
which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
14 and did not inquire of the Lord. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Hi DHC. Where does it say that Saul went to hell?

 

[james1523]

Show me one place that Jesus him self said he came to abandon the Law. but he did say he did not come to abandon the Law.
Now if one is going to claim to be a follower of Christ, why not follow in his words.

No, Jesus Himself did not abolish the law but fulfilled it. (Matt. 5:17), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

But yes it is abolished, for both Jew and Gentile: (Eph. 2:14-15), "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace."

If the Law is still in effect, then Jew and Gentile cannot be made into one new man. It is either Law or Christ, there is no middle ground.