Calvinism

[DHC]

Hi DHC. Where does it say that Saul went to hell?

Hello James.

Where does it say he went to heaven?

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

Where does it say he went to heaven?

It doesn't but Samuel 28:19 indicates Saul went to the same place that the prophet Samuel was "and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me" , presumably Paradise. Unless we believe the prophet Samuel went to hell, which is unlikely.

 

[Puddleglum]

No, Jesus Himself did not abolish the law but fulfilled it. (Matt. 5:17), "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill."

But yes it is abolished, for both Jew and Gentile: (Eph. 2:14-15), "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace."

If the Law is still in effect, then Jew and Gentile cannot be made into one new man. It is either Law or Christ, there is no middle ground.

The thing is that the Gentiles were nothing but until Christ came that wall of division fell, that is what eph 2:14 is about.
The true people of God were doing the work of God as their is nothing wrong with what they were doing at all, but they did not have the key so to speak and Jesus Christ was the one to come and fulfill it, and he did. now the people who were misslead by cunning of the evil ones ( the ones in the garden who killed all Gods Prophets ) and Stephen pointed out as to their evil deeds ?
You see their was evil corrupting the jews leading them astray and that is why the Prophets came to lead the people on to the correct path. the commandments were never evil at all, God gave them ! and to say they are just rubbish is to be against God in fact.
If the good jewish people follow in the Commandments there is nothing wrong with that at all. but we know through Christ our lord and saviour that we can not abide in the commandments 100% but we do not reject them at all. but in Christ we live in him and this is how we deal with sin, we repent and ask for forgiveness and if we are true to our word we are forgiven in Christ.
We in Christ do not through the baby out with the bath water rejecting the Commandments as evil.
The way the jews were pushing Law was dictating or zero tolerance. in Christ there is not Zero tolerance as their is Grace that abounds and the Spirit gives guidance in all things and over all things.
The Commandments are a foundation of God.
The Law condems but Jesus is not the Law.
We Christians come into Jesus because that is the well spring of what salvation is about. we don't need the Law because we have Grace abounding, the Law will not save anyone.
If one falls into evil you will be condemed by the Law. the Jews even today are condemed by the Law, they need a saviour, or it's just like a dog chasing it's tail. so why do so called christians look up to them in the last 10 years so much, with all this filthy idolatry. they are not Israel at all and the Orthodox Jews know it.

 

[james1523]

The thing is that the Gentiles were nothing but until Christ came that wall of division fell, that is what eph 2:14 is about.
The true people of God were doing the work of God as their is nothing wrong with what they were doing at all, but they did not have the key so to speak and Jesus Christ was the one to come and fulfill it, and he did. now the people who were misslead by cunning of the evil ones ( the ones in the garden who killed all Gods Prophets ) and Stephen pointed out as to their evil deeds ?
You see their was evil corrupting the jews leading them astray and that is why the Prophets came to lead the people on to the correct path. the commandments were never evil at all, God gave them ! and to say they are just rubbish is to be against God in fact.
If the good jewish people follow in the Commandments there is nothing wrong with that at all. but we know through Christ our lord and saviour that we can not abide in the commandments 100% but we do not reject them at all. but in Christ we live in him and this is how we deal with sin, we repent and ask for forgiveness and if we are true to our word we are forgiven in Christ.
We in Christ do not through the baby out with the bath water rejecting the Commandments as evil.
The way the jews were pushing Law was dictating or zero tolerance. in Christ there is not Zero tolerance as their is Grace that abounds and the Spirit gives guidance in all things and over all things.
The Commandments are a foundation of God.
The Law condems but Jesus is not the Law.
We Christians come into Jesus because that is the well spring of what salvation is about. we don't need the Law because we have Grace abounding, the Law will not save anyone.
If one falls into evil you will be condemed by the Law. the Jews even today are condemed by the Law, they need a saviour, or it's just like a dog chasing it's tail. so why do so called christians look up to them in the last 10 years so much, with all this filthy idolatry. they are not Israel at all and the Orthodox Jews know it.

The law can be good or evil depending upon how we use it: 1 Tim 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
The law was not made for the righteous: 1 Tim 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous...
The commandments themselves are not evil but they give sin and evil a chance (Rom 7:8) and they stir up sin and evil:
Rom 5:20 "The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,"

Eph 2:15 says the Law was abolished. It is abolished for both Jew and Gentile, so "good Jewish people following the commandments" are in fact living in sin. God requires both Jew and Gentile to leave the Law and come to Christ.

 

[DHC]

The Commandments are a foundation of God.

Hello Puddlegum.

You stated;

The Commandments are a foundation of God.

Please read the following and try to understand that the ten commandments
are the terms of a specific covenant between God and Israel.

A 'covenant' is an agreement between two parties.

A 'mediator' is the one who negotiates between the two parties.

The 'contract' is a written or spoken agreement, legally enforcable by law.

Was the covenant that God established with Israel at Mt Sinai a legal covenant or contract?

Exodus 19

5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be
My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that
you shall speak to the sons of Israel.
7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words
which the Lord had commanded him.
8 All the people answered together and said, All that the Lord has spoken we will do!
And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

From the verses above there is a well defined contract between God and Israel. The elders agreed
to the terms of the covenant, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do!" It is clear that the elders consented
to the agreement with God. Then Moses returned to the Lord with the peoples consent. The contract or covenant
has been established, Moses was the one who conducted the negotiation.

All that remains now is to ratify the agreement between God and Israel.

God and Israel must sign the contract which will be enforceable by law.

Exodus 24
3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all
the people answered with one voice and said, All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!
4 Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot
of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the Lord.
6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!
8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.

The covenant is now legal, formal consent by both parties has been reached.
This is now a covenant signed in blood, sealed. Israel has agreed to obey the
laws or the book of the covenant. A covenant between God and Israel!

Gentile nations were not a party involved in this agreement. The terms of the agreement
do not apply to the Gentile nations. Scripture most clearly identifies physical Israel and God
as the parties legally bound by this contract.

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello Puddlegum.

You stated;

The Commandments are a foundation of God.

Please read the following and try to understand that the ten commandments
are the terms of a specific covenant between God and Israel.

A 'covenant' is an agreement between two parties.

A 'mediator' is the one who negotiates between the two parties.

The 'contract' is a written or spoken agreement, legally enforcable by law.

Was the covenant that God established with Israel at Mt Sinai a legal covenant or contract?

Exodus 19

5 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be
My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that
you shall speak to the sons of Israel.
7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words
which the Lord had commanded him.
8 All the people answered together and said, All that the Lord has spoken we will do!
And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

From the verses above there is a well defined contract between God and Israel. The elders agreed
to the terms of the covenant, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do!" It is clear that the elders consented
to the agreement with God. Then Moses returned to the Lord with the peoples consent. The contract or covenant
has been established, Moses was the one who conducted the negotiation.

All that remains now is to ratify the agreement between God and Israel.

God and Israel must sign the contract which will be enforceable by law.

Exodus 24
3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all
the people answered with one voice and said, All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!
4 Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot
of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.
5 He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the Lord.
6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!
8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words.

The covenant is now legal, formal consent by both parties has been reached.
This is now a covenant signed in blood, sealed. Israel has agreed to obey the
laws or the book of the covenant. A covenant between God and Israel!

Gentile nations were not a party involved in this agreement. The terms of the agreement
do not apply to the Gentile nations. Scripture most clearly identifies physical Israel and God
as the parties legally bound by this contract.

So you say they are still bound by the Law, this people even today, they were not for Jesus in the first place ?
Then all the other dogs got grafted in some how, then get pruned out and god comes back to his own people ? and that make Jesus a nobody or false thing, just for another joke. and the jew comes back with no repentance at all for no good reason at all under God.
I was of the understanding that all people in the whole world have to come to God and that's why it comes to Jesus to embrace the whole world not just one so called race and in that we can become the people of God.
I think their was a dude that got swallowed by a big fish and he feared to do as God willed him to do and this dude would of done what God willed, but for the people were not Hebrews his people ? so he feared it was a wrong thing to do because of this, but God made him do it ?
I thought the Jews were miss lead by the people running the show in the vineyard, opposing all gods Prophets and Christ him self.
So this lot killed Jesus as well and they are saved to. you know they knew who he was ? they had their own gods. (and they still do today)
I don't think God signs any contract with anyone, only people do that. it's just in time, the fulfilment comes and the way to salvation has arrived for ever.
Christianity is Israel and she comes back home and all embrace her their. no war no forcing people out but all as one united.
But Bible states Satan arrives on the scene and the time is ripe to fool most people of today with weak faith.
Remember they were murderers from the beginning Satan's lot and their is nothing they will not stoop to. especially the old trick of leading weak Christians to believe anything will do, like don't worry you are saved, so just look the other way.

 

[Puddleglum]

Exodus 20 why would one dislike the 10
What is wrong with them.
Is 20:3 wrong ? you shall not have other Gods besides me. ? is this a problem
20:13 you shall not kill
20:14 adultery
20:15 Stealing
20:16 false witness
20:17 Covet your neighbours wife etc
What could a person of God have against such and why.
I can only see evil in one who rejects them and if one thinks he is saved and need not heed them :coocoo:

 

[B-A-C]

At this point, I still do not believe in Calvinism. I do not believe that God has "predestined" some to be saved, and others to go to Hell.

Amen!! So many people take those verses out of context.
Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Those who he foreknew, I have no doubt God knows what we call the future.
But just because he knew who would get saved in advance doesn't mean he forced his will upon them.

He also predestined to become conformed to the image of his son.
If you choose salvation, if you follow Jesus, then God will change you. It's predestined.

If you join the army (it's your choice to do so).
Then it's predestined that you will wear camouflage clothes and get a crew cut.

 

[DHC]

Exodus 20 why would one dislike the 10
What is wrong with them.
Is 20:3 wrong ? you shall not have other Gods besides me. ? is this a problem
20:13 you shall not kill
20:14 adultery
20:15 Stealing
20:16 false witness
20:17 Covet your neighbours wife etc
What could a person of God have against such and why.
I can only see evil in one who rejects them and if one thinks he is saved and need not heed them :coocoo:

Hello Puddlegum.

I do not 'dislike' the ten commandments Puddlegum, personal likes and dislikes
are of no importance. We are compelled to follow the instruction that we were
given by the Holy Spirit through the apostles Puddlegum.

Here Puddlegum, I will attempt to illustrate the primary problem with the ten commandments.

As you are well aware the Law of Moses states.

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery.

The law of Moses is specific, defined, a legal instruction Puddlegum.
The ten commandments only prohibits adultery.
You may commit any sexual act you like but do not commit adultery!
That is what you are saying Puddlegum and I will explain why this is so.

Sexual physical acts are prohibited under Mosaic Law as you know. But the quotation
from Exodus 20, concerns only the one physical illegal act. If you were to quote the other
laws related to sexual physical acts. Then effectively you are implementing the whole
Mosaic law system. Here is the primary problem you have Puddlegum.

You are under the whole law, the complete legal system that was given to Israel.
This includes all civil laws that were included in the law of Moses.
So you would be well advised to receive circumcision and become a convert to Judaism.

There is no way to avoid this progression because Exodus 20 is specific legal code.

If you quote one law you must also quote all law. These laws are interconnected, they
do not stand alone from one another. All or nothing.

Here is a question for you to answer Puddlegum.

If a person said to you that they were committing a sexual act but not adultery.

What would you say to them Puddlegum?

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello Puddlegum.

I do not 'dislike' the ten commandments Puddlegum, personal likes and dislikes
are of no importance. We are compelled to follow the instruction that we were
given by the Holy Spirit through the apostles Puddlegum.

Here Puddlegum, I will attempt to illustrate the primary problem with the ten commandments.

As you are well aware the Law of Moses states.

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery.

The law of Moses is specific, defined, a legal instruction Puddlegum.
The ten commandments only prohibits adultery.
You may commit any sexual act you like but do not commit adultery!
That is what you are saying Puddlegum and I will explain why this is so.

Sexual physical acts are prohibited under Mosaic Law as you know. But the quotation
from Exodus 20, concerns only the one physical illegal act. If you were to quote the other
laws related to sexual physical acts. Then effectively you are implementing the whole
Mosaic law system. Here is the primary problem you have Puddlegum.

You are under the whole law, the complete legal system that was given to Israel.
This includes all civil laws that were included in the law of Moses.
So you would be well advised to receive circumcision and become a convert to Judaism.

There is no way to avoid this progression because Exodus 20 is specific legal code.

If you quote one law you must also quote all law. These laws are interconnected, they
do not stand alone from one another. All or nothing.

Here is a question for you to answer Puddlegum.

If a person said to you that they were committing a sexual act but not adultery.

What would you say to them Puddlegum?

Question for me is, i would say they were wrong as the OT points out depraved acts of sexual depravity even to the death of such a one.
I have nothing against true Jewish positions like the Orthodox Jews they are not a problem to God, never were and never will be. the other so called jews are not worth talking about, just like most so called christians, because they are only lukewarm or even cold. they are into idolatry and there is no hope for anyone who look up to the evil like that of the political correctness work of Satan. as you can not serve two masters. The true Jews of 'Israel' have God on their side and always have but have be blinded for a time. the true Christians are Israel indeed of the promise and the Orthodox jews will in time come to Christ. all others are lost with no hope and are the problem.
I find it offencive when people call me a jew, because they have no idea what they are on about. but i know where they are coming from so it does not upset me because they are off with the pixies.
All that a true jew need do is embrace Christ and come into the fullness of him. they will not come to one who slanders the commandments that's for sure, and pushes all this lukewarm rubbish, not to mention OSAS.
Circumcision done and love 'true Israel' from the begining, as Christ is the begining and the ending which is and which was.
1 John 2:3-4
Rom 3:31
Matt 5:17-20
Rom 1:28
Rev 2 and 3 what does the Lord say ?

 

[DHC]

Question for me is, i would say they were wrong as the OT points out depraved acts of sexual depravity even to the death of such a one.
I have nothing against true Jewish positions like the Orthodox Jews they are not a problem to God, never were and never will be. the other so called jews are not worth talking about, just like most so called christians, because they are only lukewarm or even cold. they are into idolatry and there is no hope for anyone who look up to the evil like that of the political correctness work of Satan. as you can not serve two masters. The true Jews of 'Israel' have God on their side and always have but have be blinded for a time. the true Christians are Israel indeed of the promise and the Orthodox jews will in time come to Christ. all others are lost with no hope and are the problem.
I find it offencive when people call me a jew, because they have no idea what they are on about. but i know where they are coming from so it does not upset me because they are off with the pixies.
All that a true jew need do is embrace Christ and come into the fullness of him. they will not come to one who slanders the commandments that's for sure, and pushes all this lukewarm rubbish, not to mention OSAS.
Circumcision done and love 'true Israel' from the begining, as Christ is the begining and the ending which is and which was.
1 John 2:3-4
Rom 3:31
Matt 5:17-20
Rom 1:28
Rev 2 and 3 what does the Lord say ?

Hello Puddlegum.

Please explain to me what this command prohibits.

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery.

 

[brakelite]

It doesn't but Samuel 28:19 indicates Saul went to the same place that the prophet Samuel was "and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me" , presumably Paradise. Unless we believe the prophet Samuel went to hell, which is unlikely.

Here is a precise reason why having a preconditioned erroneous belief in the state of the dead, we come into great difficulty elsewhere.
First, you presume that Samuel is still alive somewhere, conscious of his surroundings, and even able to communicate with the living. Not only so, but that a former prophet of God is at the beck and call of a witch! A witch, who on the request of an apostate king, can call someone down from heaven to the earth?Yet the rest of scripture declare clearly that this is impossible!
Eccl. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Saul did not see Samuel. He "perceived" (incorrectly) that it was Samuel on advice of the witch, who simply described an apparition of a spirit wearing a hoodie!

On Sauls own testimony God had left Saul and would not communicate with him. God refused to have anything further to do with Saul previously yet on the word of a witch God now allows Samuel to be resurrected and speak to Saul again on behalf of God?
Samuel was supposedly “brought up.” Other expressions: “ascending out of the earth,” “Cometh up,” and “Bring … up.” Is this where the righteous dead are—down in the earth? Not according to those who believe in the immortal soul. Samuel is described as “an old man covered with a mantle.” Is this the way immortal souls appear? And where did the soul get the body? They’re supposed to be disembodied. Was there a resurrection? Did God obey the beck and call of the witch, and raise up Samuel? If not, can Satan raise the dead?

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello Puddlegum.

Please explain to me what this command prohibits.



Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery.

I thought it was oblivious.
Do you see something other in it ?
Or are you going to try to say Israel committed adultery, it never did, that was only the lost jews. true Christianity is Israel. as it never failed disappear or was lost. as how can it be. if you are not a people of God (Israel) then who are you ? just some sort of so called christian with no foundations hanging on to some type of OSAS with beak and claw. rejecting the history of God with all the people who walked with God.

 

[farout]

The thing is that the Gentiles were nothing but until Christ came that wall of division fell, that is what eph 2:14 is about.
The true people of God were doing the work of God as their is nothing wrong with what they were doing at all, but they did not have the key so to speak and Jesus Christ was the one to come and fulfill it, and he did. now the people who were misslead by cunning of the evil ones ( the ones in the garden who killed all Gods Prophets ) and Stephen pointed out as to their evil deeds ?
You see their was evil corrupting the jews leading them astray and that is why the Prophets came to lead the people on to the correct path. the commandments were never evil at all, God gave them ! and to say they are just rubbish is to be against God in fact.
If the good jewish people follow in the Commandments there is nothing wrong with that at all. but we know through Christ our lord and saviour that we can not abide in the commandments 100% but we do not reject them at all. but in Christ we live in him and this is how we deal with sin, we repent and ask for forgiveness and if we are true to our word we are forgiven in Christ.
We in Christ do not through the baby out with the bath water rejecting the Commandments as evil.
The way the jews were pushing Law was dictating or zero tolerance. in Christ there is not Zero tolerance as their is Grace that abounds and the Spirit gives guidance in all things and over all things.
The Commandments are a foundation of God.
The Law condems but Jesus is not the Law.
We Christians come into Jesus because that is the well spring of what salvation is about. we don't need the Law because we have Grace abounding, the Law will not save anyone.
If one falls into evil you will be condemed by the Law. the Jews even today are condemed by the Law, they need a saviour, or it's just like a dog chasing it's tail. so why do so called christians look up to them in the last 10 years so much, with all this filthy idolatry. they are not Israel at all and the Orthodox Jews know it.

Puddle: What you say is ok, but as far as I can tell it's just your opinion. Could you please give Scripture to prove your statements. Only the Scripture is aurhoritive the rest is words on the screen. Thanks.


farout

 

[DHC]

I thought it was oblivious.
Do you see something other in it ?
Or are you going to try to say Israel committed adultery, it never did, that was only the lost jews. true Christianity is Israel. as it never failed disappear or was lost. as how can it be. if you are not a people of God (Israel) then who are you ? just some sort of so called christian with no foundations hanging on to some type of OSAS with beak and claw. rejecting the history of God with all the people who walked with God.

Hello Puddlegum.

I simply see a law given to Israel at Mt Sinai, Puddlegum.

A prohibition of adultery!

As you are aware the scripture in Exodus states this simple fact.

So how do you explain the following?

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello Puddlegum.

I simply see a law given to Israel at Mt Sinai, Puddlegum.

A prohibition of adultery!

As you are aware the scripture in Exodus states this simple fact.

So how do you explain the following?

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

It goes to show that people are not totally corrupt and the gentiles were to be judged by natural Law before Christ came and that everyone that does good will be awarded.

 

[Puddleglum]

Puddle: What you say is ok, but as far as I can tell it's just your opinion. Could you please give Scripture to prove your statements. Only the Scripture is aurhoritive the rest is words on the screen. Thanks.


farout

Maybe i could, but i will just say it's the Holy spirit that can guide one and this can proceeds over and above words, the Bible was spoken first, then a book was made after, containing the word and then within this book we should be able to comprehend the Spirit working in the words. but if we have not the Spirit we can't truly comprehend the words fullness of intent.

There are many people who can read the Bible but are at a lost and it never gave them understanding because they have not the Holy Spirit working in them, but this is in part because God has not given it to them or they are not open to hear the Spirit. i have a mate who is as such he can not understand it because he is looking at it the wrong way, he thinks it was written by man for man and he acknowledges the 10 commandments in some way, but he can not go beyond that. because he has not the Spirit at all. he thinks if he was wealthy he would have it all made, because he would have power and is obsessed with this as that is his major god. so he thinks some nut wrote the books, like himself for worldly gains. he will not accept it because it's foolishness in his eyes as he sees only power in man to dominate in his own way. just like a mongrel dog.

 

[DHC]

It goes to show that people are not totally corrupt and the gentiles were to be judged by natural Law before Christ came and that everyone that does good will be awarded.

Hello Puddlegum.

I dare say people are extremely corrupt. Read the following.

Romans 3
9 What then? Are we (JEWS) better than they (GENTILES)? Not at all.
For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit
The poison of asps is under their lips
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This seems to be a rather accurate summation of the human race and history itself.

I am not sure what 'natural law' is puddlegum?

If people do not know what good is then how can they do good?

 

[james1523]

Here is a precise reason why having a preconditioned erroneous belief in the state of the dead, we come into great difficulty elsewhere.
First, you presume that Samuel is still alive somewhere, conscious of his surroundings, and even able to communicate with the living. Not only so, but that a former prophet of God is at the beck and call of a witch! A witch, who on the request of an apostate king, can call someone down from heaven to the earth?Yet the rest of scripture declare clearly that this is impossible!
Eccl. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Saul did not see Samuel. He "perceived" (incorrectly) that it was Samuel on advice of the witch, who simply described an apparition of a spirit wearing a hoodie!

On Sauls own testimony God had left Saul and would not communicate with him. God refused to have anything further to do with Saul previously yet on the word of a witch God now allows Samuel to be resurrected and speak to Saul again on behalf of God?
Samuel was supposedly “brought up.” Other expressions: “ascending out of the earth,” “Cometh up,” and “Bring … up.” Is this where the righteous dead are—down in the earth? Not according to those who believe in the immortal soul. Samuel is described as “an old man covered with a mantle.” Is this the way immortal souls appear? And where did the soul get the body? They’re supposed to be disembodied. Was there a resurrection? Did God obey the beck and call of the witch, and raise up Samuel? If not, can Satan raise the dead?

The place of the dead, Hades, is under the Earth and has a good side (Paradise) and bad side (Hell).
Samuel described as an old man covered with mantle was an accurate description of the prophet Samuel, and by this fact Saul recognized it was actually Samuel.
The witch had no power here to invoke Samuel. This was the sovereignty of God moving to give Saul one final message from Samuel, before Saul died.
When Samuel appeared it even appeared to scare the witch , indicating that it was indeed Samuel Himself... i.e. not someone or something the witch was expecting. The witch was then very afraid and recognized Saul.
The Bible says Samuel actually appeared, not a hoax or a fake evil spirit. If it was indeed a familiar spirit or hoax, the Bible would have made this clear.
The spirit of Samuel gave an accurate prophecy about Saul and his sons future. Further proof that it was Samuel and not an evil spirit.

 

[Puddleglum]

Hello Puddlegum.

I dare say people are extremely corrupt. Read the following.

Romans 3
9 What then? Are we (JEWS) better than they (GENTILES)? Not at all.
For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit
The poison of asps is under their lips
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

This seems to be a rather accurate summation of the human race and history itself.

I am not sure what 'natural law' is puddlegum?

If people do not know what good is then how can they do good?

I was on about totally corrupt, man is not totally corrupt, or there would be no hope. as some say man is totally corrupt.
Mans Law is natural law, not God Law.
It's the stain of original sin, that's the problem.