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Calvinism

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I was on about totally corrupt, man is not totally corrupt, or there would be no hope. as some say man is totally corrupt.
Mans Law is natural law, not God Law.
It's the stain of original sin, that's the problem.

Where in scripture does it say that natural law is man's law and not God's? Man is totally corrupt. The Bible says that we are dead in our sins. No one is righteous, even our good works are like filthy rags. How can there be good in any of us unless it was given by God? When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and called him "Good Master". Jesus' response was, "Why call me good, there is none good but the Father?" No one is good we are all corrupt.
 
Where in scripture does it say that natural law is man's law and not God's? Man is totally corrupt. The Bible says that we are dead in our sins. No one is righteous, even our good works are like filthy rags. How can there be good in any of us unless it was given by God? When the rich young ruler came to Jesus and called him "Good Master". Jesus' response was, "Why call me good, there is none good but the Father?" No one is good we are all corrupt.

No where does it say that man is totaly uterly corrupt.
Corrupt yes but not totaly or he would have no hope of any comprehention of the Spirt at all.
If he was totaly uterly hoplessly corrupt one would get your head kicked in maybe every day or maybe run through with a knife, with not a second thought or care.
He would be just a wild beast, But man is not, it just that he does not know the full truth of right from wrong with regard to Gods ways. as only God is good.
When that dude said to Jesus "good teacher" Jesus seen that this was just a worldly position and that it lacked the Spirit. so he has some good that in he can fathom good to a point but is deluded to fail in understanding as of Jesus true possition.
Our works are just filthy rags because they are not in Christ at all, but only just foolishness, like modern day political correctness is just one of mans gods he made up to feed his ego.
Mans law is just his whims due to his own ego. it lacks the Spirit of God and any salvation in Christ.
 
No where does it say that man is totaly uterly corrupt.
Corrupt yes but not totaly or he would have no hope of any comprehention of the Spirt at all.
If he was totaly uterly hoplessly corrupt one would get your head kicked in maybe every day or maybe run through with a knife, with not a second thought or care.
He would be just a wild beast, But man is not, it just that he does not know the full truth of right from wrong with regard to Gods ways. as only God is good.
When that dude said to Jesus "good teacher" Jesus seen that this was just a worldly position and that it lacked the Spirit. so he has some good that in he can fathom good to a point but is deluded to fail in understanding as of Jesus true possition.
Our works are just filthy rags because they are not in Christ at all, but only just foolishness, like modern day political correctness is just one of mans gods he made up to feed his ego.
Mans law is just his whims due to his own ego. it lacks the Spirit of God and any salvation in Christ.

Eph 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If a man is dead how can he do anything to gain access to the Father? The faith that we have to believe is given to us as a gift. Vs 9 Not of works. You can't do anything to gain access to the Father. You don't even have faith to believe. You and every one who has ever lived or will live have no desire to come to God. The only reason anyone of us have a desire to seek after God is because God gave us that desire. Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

Let me ask you this, what did Christ death on the cross accomplish? Or let me use another way.

"For Whom Did Christ Die?

"The Father imposed his wrath due unto, and the son under went punishment for, either
1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
A. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for and so none are saved.
B That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
C. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
You answer because of unbelief.
I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not?
If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or he did not.
If he did must that hinder them more than their others sins for which he died?
If he did not, he did not die for all their sins
John Owen 1616-1683
 
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Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately corrupt.

Do i deny that no.
But the book does not say totally utterly corrupt now does it ?
As there is hope in all.
If people were totally utterly corrupt you would be a dog or some wild beast.
I have come across people who have not come to the Lord and they are joy to behold as they do have gifts fitting of great Christians and have seen them have a hell of a life and hatred is far from them, when i could even forgive them even if they were full of hate for ones who have done them extream wrong..
No ! people are not all monsters.
 
All men are born corrupt. Even our most righteous deed is tainted by our motivations and is but a filthy rah in His sight. That is why we must be born again to see, comprehend, or partake of the Kingdom of God. The flesh, though it be rotten to the bne, will sometimes do good to feel good about itself- in truth only God deserves glory.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
 
Do i deny that no.
But the book does not say totally utterly corrupt now does it ?
As there is hope in all.
If people were totally utterly corrupt you would be a dog or some wild beast.
I have come across people who have not come to the Lord and they are joy to behold as they do have gifts fitting of great Christians and have seen them have a hell of a life and hatred is far from them, when i could even forgive them even if they were full of hate for ones who have done them extream wrong..
No ! people are not all monsters.

The Bible doesn't have to say "totally". The goodness you see in the world is by the sovereign grace of God. If God left us to ourselves then the world would be as wicked as you describe. Remember the wickedness of Joseph's brothers. They sold him into slavery. They even wanted to kill him. But in the end when Joseph was restored to his brothers he said, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. When Moses was facing Pharaoh, God said that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. When God said that, it wasn't God made Pharaoh's heart hard, it was God taking away his restraining hand and letting Pharaoh have his own corrupt sinful way. Israel was punished by God through other nations, but God then punished those nations for their evil against Israel. The same concept, he took away his restraining hand and let those nations have their way with Israel but then punished them for their wickedness. Prov 16:4.
 
Calvinism is fatally flawed in that it denies choice. God moves according to foreknowledge of an individual;s choice- it is plainly demonstrated in the scriptures that He does so:

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

This is a straight-forward example of God's attitude, plans, and actions toward someone being based on their choice.
He does predestinate- according to foreknowledge:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


From the Vine's Expositiry Dictionary of the New Testament (
red emphasis mine):
Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.

 
Calvinism is fatally flawed in that it denies choice. God moves according to foreknowledge of an individual;s choice- it is plainly demonstrated in the scriptures that He does so:

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

This is a straight-forward example of God's attitude, plans, and actions toward someone being based on their choice.
He does predestinate- according to foreknowledge:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


From the Vine's Expositiry Dictionary of the New Testament (
red emphasis mine):
Foreknow, Foreknowledge

A. Verb.
proginosko (G4267), "to know before" (pro, "before," ginosko, "to know"), is used (a) of divine knowledge, concerning (1) Christ, 1Pe_1:20, RV, "foreknown" (KJV, "foreordained"); (2) Israel as God's earthly people, Rom_11:2; (3) believers, Rom_8:29; "the foreknowledge" of God is the basis of His foreordaining counsels; (b) of human knowledge, (1) of persons, Act_26:5; (2) of facts, 2Pe_3:17.


Read that previous post (147) again. There is a choice, but God gives us an understanding that helps us decide to choose God over our own sinful ways.
 
Read that previous post (147) again. There is a choice, but God gives us an understanding that helps us decide to choose God over our own sinful ways.
He will not miss one that would come to Him- He foreknows our choice and based on that He predestines - He arranges circumstance and events to bring us to our knees in repentance; that is Love.
 
There is a choice, but God gives us an understanding that helps us decide to choose God over our own sinful ways.
I thought one of the main teachings of Calvinism is that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and humans who are "predestined" to either place cannot change their outcome. Is this not correct?
Unconditional Election: God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph 1:4-8; Rom. 9:9:11) without any consideration of merit or quality within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him (lest God learn and react to man's choices). Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom 9:15, 21).
The definition of Unconditional Election explained above (a major part of Calvinism's "TULIP") clearly shows this is not a choice on our part, at all. But is, rather, God choosing who will do what, when, where, how, etc. To say that God makes us choose Him is still not really our choosing, as you seemed to insinuate in post #149.

It's stuff like this that REALLY makes me wonder if Calvinism is correct or not. Which, btw, I still don't believe it is right.
 
Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
This (the Word of God) says it all. Calvinism is a false theology.
 
Calvinism is fatally flawed in that it denies choice. God moves according to foreknowledge of an individual;s choice- it is plainly demonstrated in the scriptures that He does so:

Isa 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.
This is a straight-forward example of God's attitude, plans, and actions toward someone being based on their choice.
He does predestinate- according to foreknowledge:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Only ultra-Calvinism denies man's choice completely, and that is a wrong view.

The God you describe is sort of omniscient but not omnipotent. He knows the future but has no power over it. I think if God removed His sovereign hand and merely observed what humans would choose... the world would have been destroyed years ago.

Calvinism places man's choice within the right framework of God's sovereignty, omniscience and omnipotence.
Man can only choose what God has already set before Him. What choice did you have in where you were born or who who parents were? If God chose those comparatively minor details of your life for you, what makes you think your eternal destiny is also up to your choice?

Arminianism places man at the beginning and end of the salvation story, but Calvinism places the infinite sovereign God at either end, and for this reason is the more correct view. I say "more correct" because I don't believe either views in themselves are entirely correct.

He will not miss one that would come to Him- He foreknows our choice and based on that He predestines - He arranges circumstance and events to bring us to our knees in repentance; that is Love.

A problem with your view is that God is limited by man's choice, rather than man being limited by God's choice.
You make it seem as if man is waiting for God and God cannot resist coming to man. But the bible reveals that God did not come to a world willing to receive Him, He came to a hostile world, even His own received Him not. If God knew someone would choose Him so He arranges the circumstances to save that person - it places man as the author and finisher of the faith, and that God has
saved a person because of their own goodness and merit- the fact that they are (or would be) responsive to God. In this view God acts according to man's choice, God is our servant, we merely command Him according to our choosing. But if God truly revealed Himself to everyone, everyone *would* choose Him. So whoever chooses Him depends upon if God has chosen to reveal Himself or not. Therefore salvation depends upon who God chooses to reveal Himself to, and this choice is according to His grace and mercy and no merit of our own. The examples of Abraham, Moses, David, apostle Paul, Peter, James, John, etc, is of a God who comes to us first, and calls us to follow Him, not us choosing God first.
 
so He arranges the circumstances to save that person

I think you are both correct. God doesn't control our choices, but he does control our circumstances. Having said that, he may control the circumstances to the point that we can only make one choice.
He may back us into a corner, or put us in a room with only one door. Oh, we can choose to stay in that room if we want, but if we eventually want out we have to go through that door.

Jonah didn't go to Ninevah the first time. In fact he went the opposite direction God told him to. Of course God took him to Ninevah anyway, but even after he was on the beach, he could walked the other way.
 
The God you describe is sort of omniscient but not omnipotent. He knows the future but has no power over it. I think if God removed His sovereign hand and merely observed what humans would choose... the world would have been destroyed years ago.

That my friend is complete conjecture based only on your opinion. If He created us to have choice (and He did) and gave us that ability to choose(and He did) that in no way limits His power or stops any of His plans.
 
I thought one of the main teachings of Calvinism is that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and humans who are "predestined" to either place cannot change their outcome. Is this not correct?

The definition of Unconditional Election explained above (a major part of Calvinism's "TULIP") clearly shows this is not a choice on our part, at all. But is, rather, God choosing who will do what, when, where, how, etc. To say that God makes us choose Him is still not really our choosing, as you seemed to insinuate in post #149.

It's stuff like this that REALLY makes me wonder if Calvinism is correct or not. Which, btw, I still don't believe it is right.

It's both. God chooses you for salvation. He passively chooses some for hell. But you still have to make a choice. You still have to make a commitment. If God didn't choose you for salvation and left the choice completely up to you. You would never choose. Roms 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Is God sovereign? Does he control everything or does he just let everyone do want they want too? Because if he let us do what we want then Puddleglum would be right everyone would be a monster.
So do you believe that Joseph's brothers, Pharaoh, and the nations who invaded Israel had a choice or didn't have a choice? If they had a choice why did Joseph say that God meant it for good? But if God is sovereign then why did Joseph say they meant it for evil? If Pharaoh had a choice why did God say he would harden Pharaoh's heart? And those nations who rose up against Israel if God is sovereign why did he punish them for going against Israel if they didn't have a choice?


The doctrines of Sovereign Grace(Calvinism) is a hard doctrine to understand. It's not milk, it's the meat of scripture. So unless you were raised in a church that taught this it will be hard to understand and only God can really reveal this to you. I wasn't raised in a Calvinistic church I was raised a an Armenian one but because of several people showing me what scripture says and God opening my eyes to the truth I began to understand more and more. There are still things I can't wrap my brain around. Just like there are other things in scripture I can't wrap my brain around, like Jesus on the cross when the Father forsook Christ, the Trinity, Jesus being 100% man and 100% God, etc. Pray and ask God to teach you the truth.
 
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The doctrines of Sovereign Grace(Calvinism) is a hard doctrine to understand

Not so hard, just incorrect. I attended a baptist church for years. The more I studied it, the more convinced I became it was wrong.
 
Not so hard, just incorrect. I attended a baptist church for years. The more I studied it, the more convinced I became it was wrong.

So how does one desire to know God when the Bible says none of us seek after God?
 
God shows mercy to all who would come- that is Jesus invitation ; He knows who will yield to His drawing and those He predestines according to foreknowledge.- It is Basic Bible reading.
 
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