Catholicism

[Chad]

wow ya all, rizen we need to quit meeting like this lol. i am not saying that the devil only goes after women he goes after both sexes yes that is true. i was simply saying that women are more easily deceived than men are. it was not a slam or me not liking women. it is the truth especially when women make decisions from emotions.

men are deceived aswell. i am not saying that men are never deceived i have been deceived alot myself.

Show me Scripture that women are more easily deceived. Did GOD say this? No. Did Jesus Christ say this? No.

I think your the one making a point from "emotions". I would refrain from that. Your making contradicting comments left and right brother. No reason for that. Let Scripture speak without man's opinions or personal views.

 

[ushalk]

chad you say that i am contridicting but that is not so. this is infact written in the word of god. it just is not stated straight up front. but lets take alook at some things through the bible. eve was deceived and then the man. delilah was decieved and then samson, jezebel was deceived then her husband. you see the devil has first got to the women then through the women got to men.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Women are more easily deceived than men? Obviously, you've never met a woman like my mother. P. T. Barnum's famous quip about a sucker being born every minute applies to both genders.

SLE

 

[Mary Emily]

Something went badly wrong with a post I had just written. I will try to retrieve it and post it again. Sorry!

Mary Emily

Found the post, thank you God!


Ushalk, what do you think of Jacob's daughter Dinah? Did she "tempt" Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite first criminally to assault her, then to consent to circumcision as a ploy to get into the place where Jacob was encamped and take his cattle? (Gen. 34:1-24) Would you say that Dinah was attractive and therefore "she asked for it"? And then was it also Dinah's fault that the sons of Jacob, her brothers Simeon and Levi, slew Hamor and Shechem his son to avenge their sister's honour and rescue her? (Gen. 34:26) That was "murder", after all.... and did avenging Dinah's honour then occasion the sacking of the Canaanites' land, so as to cause Jacob to be ashamed of his sons' (understandable) desire for revenge, for fear the Shechemites would annihilate Jacob and all his family? (Gen. 34:25-31)

No. Jacob simply moved to Bethel. God told Jacob it was time to move on. (Gen.35:1). Unfortunately I can find no more about poor Dinah in Genesis, but that's no reason to presume that she was not taken with Jacob and his family to Bethel, where Jacob erected an altar at God's direction and banished the worshippers of "strange gods" by simple preaching of the Name of the True God of Israel. (Gen. 35:2-7) It was at Bethel that God gave Jacob a new name: Israel. (Gen. 35:10-11)

What about Rahab the harlot (Joshua 2:1-14)? She could have tempted Joshua and his men to sin--they were hiding in her house! But instead, she saved them from the troops of the King of Jericho, and it was counted to her for righteousness so that she and all her family were saved. (Joshua 6:25; Heb. 11:31)

I think you will find by studying the scriptures in context that it is the willingness of all of us to be led into sin, as contrasted with steadfast loyalty to God's Word, that allows us to fall victim to temptation. Mere chronological logging of temptations does not answer the question "What are we to do with the free will God gave us when He created us?"

My post above on Eve and Mary was to show how rebellion against God's wishes and compliance with the will of God make the difference between sin and holiness. My Bible study had nothing to do with the roles of men and women in general, and I am grieved if anyone presumed that the roles of men and women were what I was writing about.

May God bless you with His Word!

Mary Emily

 

[ushalk]

mary emily i would say that she did not temt this man nor did she have it coming becuse she was attractive. that is not what i am saying at all. what i am saying is in many of the cases in the bible women were deceived and then the man. that is not to say that men are perfect or would be if women were not here.

 

[Mary Emily]

Ushalk posted:

"in many of the cases in the bible women were deceived and then the man."

I think, Ushalk, that you are not getting the point that it is the human will that is under discussion, not the gender of the person being tempted.

If you are unwilling to consider the point that conforming our will to the will of God is the way to avoid sin (and to bring this post back to topic, I would say that all Christians, Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant, agree that it is conforming our wills to God's will that will help us to keep from falling into sin!), then there is nothing any of us can say to you that will help you to see what the whole story of the Garden of Eden is all about.

Man was made perfect, in the image and likeness of God. When man sinned, that likeness of God was obscured by the darkness of sin. Jesus came to save us from sin, by taking our human nature upon Himself and showing us, by His willingness to go to the Cross for our sakes, that it is God's will, not our will, that is to be done, if we love God and keep His commandments. Jesus said, "Not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42) As we conform ourselves to Christ, that likeness is restored, sometimes suddenly as it was with St. Paul and with those of us who were saved in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and sometimes gradually as we tread the strait, narrow path here below with our eyes fixed on Jesus.

If Adam and Eve had both said "Not my will, not the serpent's will, but God's will be done", they would have seen the serpent hurry away. If Adam and Eve had obeyed God out of love, knowing that God must have had a good and loving reason to forbid them to eat of the tree of knowledge, instead of disobeying Him out of a desire to be "gods" (Gen. 3:5), they would have lived on in the Garden of Eden, without trouble, pain or care. Unfortunately Adam and Eve both chose to disobey the God who loved them and created them because of His great love.

I think one reason people succumb to temptation is that they are just being Idle and not studying the scriptures or thinking about Jesus or praying at all. When we are idle, people say of us, "An idle mind is the devil's workshop". Let's not be idle, let's study the Bible!

Mary Emily

 

[ushalk]

no i got that point i think that the point that you are not getting is the devil often tempts the women first. why is this. if the woman is deceived then the devil can use her to get to the head of the home which is man. why is this. because men love their women very much and in part it becomes very easy for that man to fall into things to show his woman something.

 

[Mary Emily]

Ushalk said, Why is this[?]

Because it's apparently what you insist upon thinking, in spite of the best Bible study we can provide you with, in spite of friendly posts (thanks, Rizen1!), in spite of everything. I think your posts speak for themselves, Ushalk, as all our posts speak for themselves.

We love you in the Lord, but we do not and cannot agree with you, especially without proper scriptural evidence.

This persistence in discounting other people's points of view in favour of one's own fixed opinion does not make very much sense to me, so I will stop trying to convince Ushalk of anything. He apparently is not willing to show us scriptures, and until he does (a statistical study of "women tempters in the Bible" should take approximately seven years....), I think I will get back to my ordinary work here at home.

Best wishes, it's been fun!

Mary Emily

 

[Chad]

no i got that point i think that the point that you are not getting is the devil often tempts the women first. why is this. if the woman is deceived then the devil can use her to get to the head of the home which is man. why is this. because men love their women very much and in part it becomes very easy for that man to fall into things to show his woman something.

Enough already. Your making foolish statements out of your own opinion, not GOD's Word. I asked you numerous times to provide Scripture that says "women are more deceived then men", you have not done so. Why? Because its not true, your only going by your own understanding instead of truth. If women are deceived more than men, show me proof in Scripture and show me proof you have absolute complete knowledge of all women to back this up.

No further comments from you necessary in this thread.

Back on topic now, Catholicism. Thank you.

 

[Mouse]

Sorry my post has caused a bit of dispute here. I appreciate all your responses and am learning from them.

The reason I made the assumption about women as weaker sex (and I admit my error) is because there is a lack of women leaders in the bible.

Now, as far as women being solely responsible for deceiving men, not so. In Deuteronomy 13, warning against the prophets,

Deuteronomy 13:6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" ... 8 "Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:"

I see this linked to the Garden of Eden where Eve did give Adam the fruit, but here we are warned about deception from ANYONE, man and women. Because both hold equal responsibility.

Just had to clear that up since I was responsible for the situation. Now back to Catholicism as Chad says

 

[Mary Emily]

How whole churches can go astray

Mouse reminded us, "we are warned about deception from ANYONE", from the Garden of Eden on down to today, and certainly we need to be aware that temptation to become power-hungry can afflict even the Church!

How did the early Christian church get "organised"? Well, first Jesus called His disciples (Matthew 5:18--Andrew, Peter, James, John; and the rest of them [Matthew 10:1-4]). All the disciples sat at Jesus' feet and followed Him, so that they might learn from Him.

And one of them, as we know, was Judas Iscariot, who would later betray the Lord (Matthew 10:4).

Why am I going through this elementary passage that we all learned when we were very young? First, to show that in the beginning of the Church, there was no real power struggle among the disciples until the doting mother of James and John came boldly up to ask the Lord to give them "seats on His right hand and on His left in the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 20:20-21; but see Matthew 25:34ff if you want to know who is qualified to sit with Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven!). Jesus prevented power struggles by constantly reminding His disciples that whoever would be greatest among them must be the servant of all (Luke 22:26; John 13:13-14). And He gave them all, especially Peter, the great example of the washing of the feet: John 13:4-8. Looking especially at v. 8 there, we see that Jesus singles out Peter, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me...." and then v. 9: Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head."

So there we have St. Peter, who would later deny Christ three times and after the Resurrection be restored (John 21:15-18). And if we wonder what Jesus' plan for His Church was, we need only read His high-priestly prayer in John 17: that they all may be one, even as Thou, Father, and I are one.

Sigh. We are definitely not one, we members of His Body the Church. We are all split up, mostly by power struggles that may have begun as early as the rivalries between one disciple and another, then stretched on to St. Paul's troubles with the Church of Corinth, and on to today. We've had wars and all kinds of persecutions over who gets to run the Church. And those struggles have been found in every church, from the great St. Peter's in Rome, down to the enormous Baptist Conventions or Presbyterian Assemblies or Methodist Conferences or Episcopalian General Conventions, and from St. Polly's-By-the-Pond in Devon, England all the way down from there to the tiny "Fire-Baptised Holiness Church of Bear Creek, Mississippi" (I made up those last two church names!). Not to mention the non-denominational mega-churches and the congregations of the various televangelists....

And we've just lost the very holy wife of the greatest evangelist of our time, the beautiful, wonderful, Ruth Graham, who leaves her brilliant and saintly husband and her fine children to carry Christ's banner forward. When Billy Graham dies, I can assure you that Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church will weep, and the Bishop of Rome will also weep. And we too will mourn, for a long time.

These days, while we're discussing the Catholic (which means Universal) Church, it seems to me that the central force keeping us all apart is the centralisation of power, albeit only spiritual power, in the person of the Bishop of Rome. All sorts of excuses are made for this centralisation of power. The most amusing one I ever heard concerned Pope Pius IX, "Pio Nono", of whom a friend of mine who was about to become a Roman Catholic said, "Don't be so hard on the Popes; remember, Pio Nono had to compete with Queen Victoria!"

Putting aside our other differences over all those other things--sacraments, geographical territory, you name it--the single most serious matter in my humble opinion that needs to be solved before the Church can be truly One again is .... wait for it .... papal infallibility. We've got to forget the 19th-century excuse that "it's too hard to organise an ecumenical council because of logistical difficulties", and, it seems to me, we have all got to cleanse our hearts and repent of our own many, many sins, before we can see a way to correct whatever injustices we perceive in other people's churches. Motes and beams, pots and kettles, dontcha know. Now I'm certainly not infallible and I'm certainly not my own little pope with authority to dictate what anybody else must believe. All I have as a "core doctrine" is the Holy Scriptures, really. I can find in the scriptures every line of the Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed, and I can even find the scriptures the Roman Catholics quote to give support to their other doctrines (e.g., Matthew 18:18).... or for my own church the passage immediately before that one, regarding the privilege of going to the whole Church in case of any dispute.... But bending the scriptures to our own purposes won't even, I fear, easily solve the problem of power in the Church. That will take the Holy Spirit's power to solve. We must pray for that New Pentecost to come, and come soon.

In the last analysis, how centralised do we dare let the temporal power in the Church be?

In my church, the Orthodox Church, we do have bishops and they all have equal "power" (such as it is, in a church where there've been so many persecutions that we really don't have a whole lot of real estate left except in Russia where the churches actually have been given back, many in a hopeless state of disrepair....). For the Orthodox Church to move ahead, we need an ecumenical council with all those bishops from all those countries present, waiting on the Holy Spirit like the disciples waited in the Upper Room at Pentecost. Not an easy thing to organise--it could take 500 years.

They tell a joke on us: How many Orthodox Christians does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: Change?

We Orthodox (plural: "Orthodoxen" of course!) have a bumper sticker that some of us are brave enough to put on our cars (don't look at me!). It says, "Orthodox Christianity: Disorganised Religion at its Finest!"

We are all stubborn beasts, burden-bearers and balky ones at that. Will anyone try to "pull together" with us, slow as we are?

Mary Emily

 

[Dreamer]

Mary Emily, you've definitely got something here. I read your post with great interest.

If the true church, the church of Jesus Christ...if we somehow could stand in unity....

Oh, someday in Heaven!!! And what a Heaven it will be.

 

[Mary Emily]

Oh, thank you with all my heart, dear Sister "Dreamer". Yes, we share the dream! The dream of no more squabbles, no more heresies, no more disputes between one child of God and another!

I hope we can all say a little prayer every day for Jesus's Church, because that's whose Church we are all members of, that this Church of ours, which is the Bride of Christ and will be brought to Him dressed in beautiful garments without spot or wrinkle on the Last Day, will soon be one again!

From an old hymn I remember:

"Watch o'er Thy Church, O Lord, in mercy;
"Save her from error, guard her still;
"Perfect her in Thy love, unite her:
"Cleansed and conformed unto Thy will.
"As grain, once scattered on the hillsides,
"Was in this broken bread made one:
"So from all lands Thy Church be gathered
"Into Thy Kingdom by Thy Son!"
--from a document of the Early Church known as the "Didache"

With love and prayers for everyone on this wonderful discussion board, Talk Jesus,

Mary Emily

 

[Stylez4Christ]

YOU said new Pentecost? I wounder would that be like from what happne in 1900s

 

[spirit1st]

FAITH is the BIG THING.

But, Also they follow a mere man or men .

We follow no man upon the earth!Yes there are teachers and leaders,But we do not follow them.

We hear them ,
and if in our spirit,Truth is confirmed by the SPIRIT OF TRUTH[Holy Ghost]Then and only then ,do we accept those teachings!

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.


The LORD wants to lead and teach each one of HIS HOLY CHILDERN!
Which we ARE!!!
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[Mary Emily]

Sorry, Stylez4Christ, I'm afraid I don't quite grasp what you mean by "what happened in the 1900s". Could you unpack that for us? And tell us what it means as far as Catholicism is concerned? Thanks and God bless!

And Spirit1st, could you unpack this comment too, please?

"there are teachers and leaders,But we do not follow them."

Bishops are teachers and leaders ordained specifically to that job. In the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches they are charged with the specific responsibility to teach the truth. They are specially educated to be qualified Biblical scholars and theologians. We pray every day for our bishops, "That they may rightly divide (that is, explain and teach) the Word of [God's] truth". What kind of leader does not, by definition, imply having someone to follow him, and what sort of teacher teaches but no one learns from him? I really cannot quite see what such a remark means, unless it means that teachers and leaders are not necessary because you are constantly and directly connected personally to the voice of Christ Himself. And if that is so, why do not all people have the exact same views all the time?

Mary Emily

 

[spirit1st]

Believe it or not?
The church is still one.
We are the perfect church!

The church today is no less than the first church!
the teaching have changed.

But We have the same HOLY SPIRIT ,With just as much power as the first!
The problem being?
Many follow men and teachers and others , Instead of our LORD!
They are not taught by the HOLY GHOST!
They are not led by the HOLY GHOST!
They are no less!

We are all part of the KINGDOM of GOD,equal with those in heaven ,now!
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

The main problem or cure as i see it is?
We just need to walk and live in our spirit!
then we will be as the first church was!

We need to be taught the meat of the LIVING WORD. Which is the deep spiritual truths.

Most dwell on the basics,the carnal things and fear the meat of the living word or do not know these deeper trues,
and fear those who do?

We are NEW TESTAMENT christains .
JESUS CHRIST is the new testament!

We must learn? Our lives are first in our spirit ,then in our soul[mind] then lastly in the flesh.

Whatever is in our spirit first then we see the results in our flesh as we live the truth .
unless our inner man grows and matures to be like our LORD!
We will not see thec signs and wonders in our lives.
It is ALL very automatic and without effort on our part

.
We feed our spirit and it will take over when grow, or we can fast and see our spirit take over the flesh.


Still our spirits are to be fed on the living Word
.
and have the true understanding of scripture.Which only comes from the Spirit of Truth!

This is fearful to many,believe it or not?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual !!

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able!

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

 

[Mary Emily]

I think I can see what you are driving at, Spirit1st, and it is true, we are all taught by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" (John 14:16)

17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you."

In that passage, Jesus is speaking directly to the disciples.

Thank you for explaining what you were referring to, namely how the Holy Spirit was to guide the disciples after Jesus had, 40 days after the Resurrection, ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.

Now, I'd like to explain something about the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches (while they were still one Church) as best I can, to try to show that it is not necessarily those churches who have "changed the teaching". First of all, after the original apostles who received the Holy Spirit on the first Pentecost (often called "The Birthday of the Church) died, the Church selected other people who had showed by their dedicated lives of total commitment to Christ and their ability to interpret the Holy Scriptures that they were indeed mindful of the leadings of the Holy Spirit. These successors of the original apostles came to be known as bishops. The word bishop comes from the Greek word episcopos, which means "overseer", or someone who watches over the flock of Christ.

In the Early Church, each town or city had its own bishop, who ordained the "Elders" (presbyters, from which we get the English word "priest") for each parish church within the city.

As time went on, more bishops were chosen from among the priests, one for each town as whole towns were converted to faith in Christ.

In this way, the Early Church maintained the consistency of her Bible teaching through the centuries.

I hope that helps.

May God bless you!

Mary Emily

 

[spirit1st]

Well , to be honest with you?
I have little faith in mankind!

i hardly trust other mens writings or ways.
I lean VERY hard on my LORD and HIS Holy Spirit to guide and teach me!
1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

It appears to me?
Mankind wants to follow men or women or others as if they had a closer walk or great knowledge or that GOD would reveal tom others before them?
Which I believe is untrue!
I believe we have full access to Our FATHER and there for the TRUTH 24/7.
GOD is no respecter of men and we are to be no respecter of person also.Yes we honor those who have the power over us!

Be it the goverment or church leaders.
But,They are no different than us!

To many follow mankind,instead of OUR LORD AND MASTER JESUS CHRIST!
That is why,We have all these different groups .
Each thinking there way is the correct way?


Of course many are called ,FEW chosen!
The few which come out of Many groups are the elect and true church!
I think ,Our walk with our LORD is a personal walk.

Personal teaching,Taught of course by the written LIVING WORD!
Yet part of the full body of CHRIST!

It is very hard for a person to turn it back on there group and give 100% to our LORD and allow HIM to teach and guide them.
The TRUE church today is Very divided and only GOD knows who is really HIS or not?

oddly many leaders and i guess most are not even BORN AGAIN?
I guess you can see? I do not put great faith in my fellow man?
I do put great faith in my LORD and the perfect church!

 

[Mary Emily]

Spirit1st, I do see the sincerity of your convictions and the enthusiasm you have for following Jesus, and I am delighted to hear that.

I did think that this was a thread to discuss "Catholicism", but maybe I was mistaken. What I have been trying to do is to explain how the Church, in the early centuries when the Church was undivided, maintained the sort of Bible teachings that her members could trust. I have been talking about bishops who were so strong in their faith that in the first two centuries of the Church's growth, many of those bishops went joyfully to their deaths, rather than worship the pagan emperors of Rome.

Mary Emily