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Christians and the milita

Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
45
One attempt I have been making to discern if a teacher truly believes in Jesus' words involves whether or not they believe it is acceptable for a Christian to join the military. I cite Jesus' words directly in the sermon on the mount, not only in the oaths all enlisted members and officers are required to swear upon beginning, but also in that while our military force is supposedly a defensive one, that we as Christians are instructed not to resist evil. Most of all, we are called to love our neighbors as ourselves and to love our enemies, and it seems an obvious contradiction to love our enemies from the business end of a rifle. I am a veteran, and while I am grateful for the lessons learned, I am dumbfounded at a total lack of willingness by the church to denounce the military, and am further confused by the existence of the seemingly oxymoron existence of "chaplains." Everything seems to support literal Christian soldiers as a violation of not only the letter of the law but also the spirit of love we are instructed to conduct ourselves with.

Have I come to an incorrect conclusion? If someone could back up the Christian defense of a governmental military, I would greatly appreciate it.
 
If Christians did not support a governmental military, this country (USA) would never have come to be in the first place. If Christians did not support governmental military, this country would not be here today. Our current governmental system and military in the US is incredibly corrupt. I wouldn't necessarily recommend someone to join it, for a number of reasons. But to say that Christians can never take part in being involved in any sort of military or something seems foreign to scripture. Jesus sent Peter to a centurion and salvation came to his house. I don't think he stopped being a centurion. The Roman army was pretty messed up.

Ultimately our battle isn't against flesh and blood. But, using physical means to defend ones home and nation are not bad things. Jesus wasn't a pacifist.

Just my thoughts,

Travis
 
I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, no. And there's a big difference between avoiding anyone who is in the military and actively joining.
But, using physical means to defend ones home and nation are not bad things.
Where do you get this from? Jesus says very clearly that we are not to resist evil. Defense is just that... resisting evil.
 
total lack of willingness by the church to denounce the military,
  • For the most part, that should answer any question if God does or doesn't support the military.
  • We are called to love and forgive our enemy, doesn't say anything about accepting what they do!
  • Yea, let's open up our borders and welcome ISIS in and give them full reign!:eek::rolleyes:
 
Millions believe that baptising babies is crucial to keep them out of hell. Millions, mind you, who believe themselves members of Christ's church. I've already spent too many years just going with the flow. I have God's Word to back this up, and you have satire. I know it's hard, but doesn't defending yourself physically directly correlate to a lack of spiritual faith? Matthew 5 says pretty clearly not only to love those enemies but to BLESS them, and RESIST NOT EVIL. That same sermon instructs us to swear no oath, and that instruction is repeated in James 5. Oaths are an integral part of military service, so that's at least two parts inherently disobedient. Even if you wanted to argue the nature of military service as noble, at the very least, service in the US military would be disobedient.

As much as I would like to keep arguing this, however, the important thing seems to be that as long as we individually search for His plan for our lives, this shouldn't even be a question. In no way do I intend to condemn someone who is already in; their military contract is a worldly consequence of a choice already made and there exist plenty of options within the military to mitigate a large portion of what would be evil. (Conscientious objector and so on). The real reason I asked, as I stated before, was because it seemed fairly obvious that being forced through a wall of sinful behavior should make it abundantly clear to a Christian who knows the Bible that we should have no place signing up. Sure, ISIS is doing bad things, but as long as you fear them, you're not so right yourself. They can't take your soul. Even with my rather minuscule knowledge of the Bible it seems extremely obvious that the only reason one defends themselves physically is a lack of trust in God to protect them. The shield of faith isn't good enough; they must go beyond it to protect themselves from physical evil. It's like your eyes scan the scripture you know and you want to put on the full armor of God, but you zip right past the part where we wrestle not against flesh and blood. Physical defense is wrestling against flesh and blood. Physical defense is RESISTING EVIL.

These are the kinds of contradictions that kept me intellectually soured against Christianity for 20 years, and you satirically make light of it with a poorly constructed ad absurdum argument. If ISIS were within our borders right now (and you would be very foolish to believe police are being hacked up with axes and machetes, but ISIS isn't here), we should not fear them, and should instead bless them and help to meet their needs. We have a new law and a new covenant with Jesus' death, we are under grace and have been given the Holy Spirit, so the standards have changed. I've only been here a day and I know my faith is tiny... so I am really unsettled that you can subtly mock what I bring before you in the Bible. I know this looks bad... Been here less than a day and I'm stirring up strife, but I really need an answer to this. A Biblical one. Because I see the Israelites being led out of Egypt and GOD handled the physical warfare. I see Peter rebuked by Jesus for swinging his sword. Is Jesus any less capable of calling angels now than then? Why, then, should we ever end another human life and rob them of a future in which they may yet repent and be reconciled before God? Even those who help in the very last moments are still getting paid, and the man who put his faith in Christ next to him on the cross is still with him in Paradise.

I don't know if I'm doing this right, but if I have made a mistake or sinned in my attempts to convey what I see in the word, I pray that you would forgive me of that transgression and choose to look beyond it in peace and love and take the time to truly contemplate the Word here. Maybe I am just stubborn and conceited and think my knowledge is super great. My heart is deceitful and I can't know. If you can find Jesus or the Apostles or really anything that supports a justifiable killing post-Crucifiction, I want to see it and be unified in mind and heart with you all. But I have searched, and I can not and have not found anything that would support justifiable killing, neither in the letter of the law nor the spirit of grace and mercy to which we are all called.
 
Where do you get this from? Jesus says very clearly that we are not to resist evil. Defense is just that... resisting evil.

The whole council of God is rarely preached. People pick and choose the parts they like and leave the rest out.

1 Timothy 5
8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.​

Any man who would sit by and watch his daughter or wife get raped/molested/beaten/etc and not do everything in their power to stop it should have their balls cut off. They don't deserve to have them.

Part of providing for your own is providing protection.

Travis
 
Millions believe that baptising babies is crucial to keep them out of hell.

This is true, but unbiblical. Ultimately, what GOD's Word says is what matters. So millions will and can do what they want, with the consequences in the end.

You have a right to defend yourself, your country, your family. How many times in the bible has GOD ordered His own men to fight nations left and right? Why? They were evil nations. Don't forget we're in a spiritual warfare, which naturally results in physical warfare nonetheless. We don't sit around and say condemn the military. Don't misquote Christ, study it in prayer instead.

If someone barges into your home with weapons and starts attacking you, your wife, your children, family members do you 'not resist evil'? That's not the context Christ was referring to. So, let's study it carefully.

Matthew 5:38-42

Eye for Eye

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’h]">[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

RSB Study Notes

Do not resist. In context this means “do not seek restitution in court.” The slap on the right cheek is a backhanded one—an insult as well as injury. Jesus’ remarks may refer back to the words of the Servant of the Lord in Is. 50:6.

IVP Commentary

Turning the Other Cheek, Letting God Vindicate Us (5:39)
As in much of Jesus' teaching, pressing his illustration the wrong way may obscure his point. In fact, this would read Scripture the very way he was warning against: if someone hits us in the nose, or has already struck us on both cheeks, are we finally free to hit back? Jesus gives us a radical example so we will avoid retaliation, not so we will explore the limits of his example (see Tannehill 1975:73). A backhanded blow to the right cheek did not imply shattered teeth (tooth for tooth was a separate statement); it was an insult, the severest public affront to a person's dignity (Lam 3:30; Jeremias 1963:28 and 1971:239). God's prophets sometimes suffered such ill-treatment (1 Kings 22:24; Is 50:6). Yet though this was more an affront to honor, a challenge, than a physical injury, ancient societies typically provided legal recourse for this offense within the lex talionis regulations (Pritchard 1955:163, 175; see also Gaius Inst. 3.220).

In the case of an offense to our personal dignity, Jesus not only warns us not to avenge our honor by retaliating but suggests that we indulge the offender further. By freely offering our other cheek, we show that those who are secure in their status before God do not value human honor. Indeed, in some sense we practice resistance by showing our contempt for the value of our insulter's (and perhaps the onlookers') opinions! Because we value God's honor rather than our own (Mt 5:16; 6:1-18), because our very lives become forfeit to us when we begin to follow Jesus Christ (16:24-27), we have no honor of our own to lose. In this way we testify to those who insult us of a higher allegiance of which they should take notice.

Avoid Retribution and Resistance (5:38-42)
Jesus here warns against legal retribution (vv. 38-39) and goes so far as to undercut legal resistance altogether with a verse that, if followed literally, would leave most Christians stark naked (v. 40). He also advocates not only compliance but actual cooperation with a member of an occupying army who might be keeping you from your livelihood (v. 41), as well as with the beggar or others who seek our help (v. 42). (Taking the last verse literally would also break most of us financially. Consider how many requests for money come in the mail each week!) If Jesus is not genuinely advocating nudity and living on the street-that is, if he is speaking the language of rhetorical overstatement (5:18-19, 29-32; 6:3)-this still does not absolve us from taking his demand seriously. Jesus utilized hyperbole precisely to challenge his hearers, to force us to consider what we value.

Jesus' words strike at the very core of human selfishness, summoning us to value others above ourselves in concrete and consistent ways. Some misread this text as if it says not to oppose injustice; what it really says, however, is that we should be so unselfish and trust God so much that we leave our vindication with him. We have no honor or property worth defending compared with the opportunity to show how much we love God and everyone else. By not retaliating, by not coming down to the oppressors' level, we necessarily will appear unrealistic to the world. Jesus' way scorns the world's honor and appears realistic only to those with the eyes of faith. It is the lifestyle of those who anticipate his coming kingdom (4:17).
 
Here's an article from Desiring God by John Piper

Did Jesus teach pacifism?

The attacks of September 11 and the resulting war against terrorism have brought to the front once again the question of the Christian view of war. The question is particularly complex because it is hard to see how war can be consistent with the biblical emphasis upon forgiveness and forebearance and love. This emphasis is perhaps most pointed in the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus says:

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. (Matthew 5:39-44)

Does Jesus' teaching that we should turn the other cheek and love our enemies mean that it is always wrong to go to war? Should the world have turned the other cheek to Hitler and tried to love him into surrender? When Osama Ben Laden ordered the attack on the World Trade Center, should the U.S. have responded by sending him the Sears Tower as well? Or does Jesus allow a place for both loving our enemies and yet, in certain situations, using force to restrain life-threatening wickedness?

What follows are some of the primary reasons we believe that it is right for the military (and Christians who are a part of the military) to engage in wars that have just cause--namely, self-defense, the restraint of life-threatening evil, and the punishment of nations and individuals who have committed unjust acts of war against one's country. This is called the just war theory. We will close by seeking to explain how this fits with the command to turn the other cheek, love our enemies, and not resist him who is evil.

Pacifism is harmful
To let someone murder when it is in your power to stop them is completely contrary to our moral sentiments. If a Hitler is on the move and seeking to bind the world in tyranny and destroy entire ethnic groups, it would seem very clearly wrong not to oppose him with force (which sometimes is the only effective method). It is true that war itself is harmful and tragic; but pacifism would result in even more harm to the world because it would give wicked people virtually free reign. We of course must be open to letting the Bible transform our moral sentiments, but this observation should at least cause us to pause and reflect more deeply before concluding that Jesus is intending to teach pacifism.

Consistent pacifism would have to eliminate the police, not just the military
In fact, if we were to conclude that governments should always turn the other cheek and never resist evil, then we would be logically committing ourselves to getting rid of not only the armed forces, but also the police force and criminal justice system. For police officers arrest criminals, using force against them if necessary, and put them in jail. That is not turning the other cheek. Does Jesus intend his command to turn the other cheek to apply to the police? Surely not as their primary way of responding to evil. God does not want evil to run about in our society unchecked (cf. in the OT the numerous civil laws and in the NT Romans 13, to be discussed below). If one accepts the legitimacy of police using force in some instances, there can be no objection to the military using force in some instances, either.

Luke 3:14 allows military service
It is significant that John the Baptist did not tell the soldiers to leave the military when they asked him what it meant to repent: "And some soldiers were questioning him, saying, 'And what about us, what shall we do?' And he said to them, 'Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages'" (Luke 3:14). Since it is, therefore, possible to live a godly life and yet be in the military, it must be because engaging in war is not always sinful.

John 18:36 acknowledges the right of the sword to earthly kingdoms
In this passage, Jesus says: "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." When Jesus says that if his kingdom were of this world his servants would be fighting, he implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it. As Christians, we are citizens of "two kingdoms"--our country on earth, and heaven. Jesus shows us that it is never right to fight for the sake of his spiritual kingdom, but that it is right to fight on behalf of earthly kingdoms (when necessary to counter evil and destruction).

Romans 13:3-4 grants governments the right to use force to restrain and punish evil
Paul writes: "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

Here Paul affirms the government's right to use force in two ways. First, he says that it "does not bear the sword for nothing." Second, he states that government is a "minister of God" when it executes vengeance against evildoers.

Governments, of course, do not have the right to use force for any purpose whatsoever. They do not have the right to use force in order to lord it over their citizens and impose unnecessary restraints upon freedom. There are two purposes for which this text says the government is justified in using force: the restraint of evil and the punishment of evil. The purpose of force is not just to prevent further evil from happening, but to punish evil acts by bringing the perpetrators to justice. Government is acting as a "minister of God" when it serves as "an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

Does the right of the sword in this text extend to the case of war? The immediate context does have in mind the use of physical force in regard to a government's own citizens. But by extension this also implies that if one nation commits an act of war against another nation, the offended nation has the right to engage in self-defense and to avenge the wrong. Would it be consistent to say that a nation has a right to restrain and punish evil committed against it by its own citizens, but not to restrain and punish evil committed against it by another nation? The mere fact that the civil offense was committed by another country does not remove their accountability to the country they attacked.

1 Peter 2:13-4 confirms the teaching of Romans 13:3-4
In 1 Peter 2:13-14, we are taught: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right." Once again, the right of governments to punish evil is affirmed.

Is it right for a Christian to fight in a war?
Since the Scriptures teach that it is right for a nation to engage in a just war, it follows that it is therefore right for a Christian to fight in such a war. Some have argued that non-Christians may fight in wars but believers may not, but this distinction is not found in Scripture. Scripture teaches that it is not sin for a government to engage in a just war, and there is therefore nothing that forbids Christian from being involved in just wars.

Church and state must be distinguished
It is very important, however, to remember here the distinction between church and state. The Christian fights in a war not as an ambassador of the church or on behalf of the church, but as an ambassador of his country. The church is not to use violence (John 18:36), but the government at times may (John 18:36; Romans 13:3-4; etc.). So the Christian fights not as an agent of the church, but as an agent of the government of his country. Both are ultimately under the authority of God, but each has a distinct role.

What about turning the other cheek?
What, now, are we to make of Jesus' radical commands in Matthew 5:39-41? "Do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two." How does this fit with what we have seen above?

First, we need to clarify what the problem is not. The problem is not that Jesus appears to be telling us to lie down and let evil overtake us. That is clearly not what he is saying. Instead, he is telling us what it looks like "not [to] be overcome by evil, but [to] overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21). We have all seen the wisdom of Jesus' words here in our everyday lives. Much of the time, the most effective way to overcome evil is by not resisting. If someone says a mean word, it is far more effective to respond with kindness than with another mean word in return. If someone tries wrongly to cut you off on the freeway, it is usually best just to let them do it. If we would learn these principles, our lives would be much more peaceful and, ironically, we would be vindicated more often.

So the problem is not that it looks as though Jesus is telling us to let evil steam-roll over us. The problem is that it looks like Jesus is telling us that the only way we should ever seek to overcome evil is by letting it go and responding with kindness. It looks as though he leaves no place for using force in resisting evil.

Part of the answer to this difficulty lies in understanding the hyperbolic nature of much of the Sermon on the Mount. I don't think that Jesus is telling us never to respond to evil with force (such as in self-defense) or always to literally turn the other cheek when we are slapped any more than his command later in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 6:6 means that we should only pray when we are completely alone or his command in 5:29 means that some should literally gouge out their eyes. Jesus himself drove the thieves away from the temple with a whip (John 2:15) and Paul at times insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen (Acts 25:11; cf. also the interesting instance of 16:35-40). Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate what our primary disposition and attitude should be, not to say that we should literally give in to every attempt to do evil against us. That is part of the answer.

The main part of the answer, however, lies in remembering that Jesus is speaking primarily to individuals. He is not mainly addressing governments here, but is primarily speaking at the personal level. This text, then, shows that an individual's primary response to evil should be to "turn the other cheek," while the other texts we have seen (e.g., Romans 13:3-4) show that government's God-given responsibility is to punish those who commit civil crimes (murder, terrorism, acts of war, etc.). While it is sometimes appropriate even for individuals to use self-defense, it is never appropriate for individuals to seek to punish others. But it is right, however, for governments both to take measures of self-defense and to execute retribution.

There are, in other words, various "spheres" of life. God has willed that some spheres include responsibilities that are not necessarily included in other spheres. Personally, it would be wrong for us to execute retribution on people who harm us. But passages like Romans 13:3-4 and John 18:36 show that Jesus is not denying governments the right to execute retribution on evildoers. Therefore, when a Christian is under the authority of the government and authorized to fight in a just war on the nation's behalf, it is appropriate for him to fight. For he is not fighting as a private individual, but as a representative of the government to which God has given the power of the sword.

In doing so, a Christian soldier should strive to love one's opponents in war as people, remembering that he opposes them as agents of the opposing government/system, not as private individuals. When at war, we need to look at people in the opposing army/terrorist group at two levels--the private, and governmental/public. Because of the private level, the soldier should pray for and love the opposing soldiers. And because of the public level, the soldier fights against them--not as private individuals, but as public representatives of the system and evil that is being opposed. That distinction, I am sure, would be hard to maintain in battle. Neither would it remove the pain and difficulty of being involved in fighting against other human beings. But it is perhaps a faint reflection of how the personal and governmental spheres overlap and involve one another while still remaining distinct.
 
I am not interested in changing your mind about the military. At one time, I despised the military as often supporting non moral fighting. But the Lord of Spirits spoke to me and told me to join the military, to find out the truth of it. I did find the truth of it, whether a soldier, policeman, or someone who judges others (which includes pretty much everyone), we can choose to do right or wrong in it. As a member of the military, you can refuse to do something if it goes against your faith. You may suffer for it or you may not, but as long as you stand up for your faith as it is, then you are not far from God. If you can tell me you never judge another with less than the full truth all evident, then you are a liar, if you do judge another without the full truth and knowledge and mercy, then you are as bad as a murderer. To me, thats the truth, and I dont need to quote something in scripture to know its true.
 
@Travis Don't you think that if you need to qualify the Scripture, it isn't appropriate to the subject in the first place? The surrounding text doesn't say anything about providing protection, it's all about interpersonal relationships in the church. Really seems taken out of context. But if you want to make inferences, why do you suppose we are compared to sheep? Would you castrate a sheep for failing to protect its own young, or would you hold the shepherd responsible?

@Chad Thank you immensely for this. Most of the attempts to justify the military that I found and read were convoluted. I can clearly see that governments are given the right to apprehend and punish evil, and I was ignorant to this fact. The Word of God supports itself here.

As far as baptizing babies... well, exactly. That's the exact point I was trying to make. A bunch of people believe it, but there's no supporting Scripture. Not good enough for me.

I can't speak for other Bibles, but the Luke 3 I read in no way condones Christian military service, and without that key component, this whole support of Christian service in the military falls apart. My Bible says: "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." The command is actually given directly to those who would seem to be the MOST justified to use violence of at least some kind. Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but my choice to take KJV over other... versions... well, that's a completely different argument. Either way, thank you for your guidance.

@Brad Huber I'm not sure what you're getting at. Why bother speaking to me if you don't care what I take from it? Makes me wonder who you ARE talking to.

Glory to God, I thank Him for strengthening me through you all.
 
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Why bother speaking to me if you don't care what I take from it? Makes me wonder who you ARE talking to.
I was talking to you. I just knew that you would find some fault with what I said and wanted you to know I wasnt interested in arguing the matter with you, just wanted to say my narrative and see your response as to whether you value the Holy Spirit or just scripture.
 
@Brad Huber Both are equally valuable; both are equally God. I want to discuss; I don't want to argue, though I often lose myself. I'm trying to be honest and not lie to myself or you. I don't think I have conducted myself the way God wants me to here, but at the same time, if I don't make mistakes, I can't be corrected. I trust God, and I trust that he's going to put people in my life that will train, test, and correct me. I need help to discern where that passion should be, and when that passion transitions beyond what is beneficial to others. None of this is an excuse; I sincerely ask your forgiveness for any disrespect I have shown, and for all anger I have provoked. More than anything, I want my conduct to be pleasing before our Lord so that my life can serve him more completely. It's easy to slip into bad habits and provoke others, but it is difficult to recognize your own shortcomings without the appropriate perspective. I ask that you would help me with the beam in my eye... I can't see it.
 
I was talking to you. I just knew that you would find some fault with what I said and wanted you to know I wasnt interested in arguing the matter with you, just wanted to say my narrative and see your response as to whether you value the Holy Spirit or just scripture.

Ouch.....

I like it...
 
@Travis I admit I have a strong tendency towards legalism and that is a major factor in my coming here to discuss this. But the Holy Spirit should never, ever, ever be in contradiction with God's Word. I think it is easy to deceive ourselves and mistake our personal emotions with the leading of the Holy Spirit, and so I choose not to rely on feelings but rather towards the infallible Word of God, and I pray that we are all conformed in our wicked hearts AND rationalizing minds to His will. But I too like the ouch. I welcome challenge and wish for my pride and honor to be utterly destroyed, so that I may be conformed to His image. I believe what I believe, but I am imperfect, and in order for those beliefs to be challenged, I must present what is on my heart so that my wrongness can be corrected. To that end, we all grow.
 
@Travis I admit I have a strong tendency towards legalism and that is a major factor in my coming here to discuss this. But the Holy Spirit should never, ever, ever be in contradiction with God's Word. I think it is easy to deceive ourselves and mistake our personal emotions with the leading of the Holy Spirit, and so I choose not to rely on feelings but rather towards the infallible Word of God, and I pray that we are all conformed in our wicked hearts AND rationalizing minds to His will. But I too like the ouch. I welcome challenge and wish for my pride and honor to be utterly destroyed, so that I may be conformed to His image. I believe what I believe, but I am imperfect, and in order for those beliefs to be challenged, I must present what is on my heart so that my wrongness can be corrected. To that end, we all grow.

Hey, I can respect that you have strong convictions/opinions. It's just the, "I'm going to shove them down your throat whether you like it or not," attitude that bothers me. And the fact that I think you couldn't be more wrong about the subject.

Regarding the scripture I posted above. I'm not out of context. The scripture is about a person providing for their own flesh and blood, the people who live in their house/ they are responsible to watch over and care for. The immediate context is most likely providing physical things like shelter and food. But providing them protection from outside threats like murderous, worthless, individuals is part of the ticket as well. to provide clothing, food, and shelter for people, but not protect them in any small amount from physical harm brought on by others is nonsensical. It just doesn't make any sense. Police officers really aren't that much different than other people in their rights and responsibilities. Yet, adopting your train of though, a Christian could not be a police officer. Now... there are many situations where someone could overpower you and do whatever they want to all your loved ones. That would suck. But if someone broke into your house, and you just sat there and watched them rape the women of the house and beat your sons half to death, while you just cowered in a corner, you'd be hard pressed to call yourself a man. And you sure can't use the scriptures to justify your cowardice.

This is not a brand new topic to the Church. Various groups have argued for pacifism over the centuries. There are a broad realm of positions one can hold to and still be pretty much biblically sound. To say that we can never defend ourselves or our loved ones in any situation is not one of those biblically sound positions. You can prove anything you want from the bible, if your goal is to use it to prove something. To study the bible with the intent of letting the Spirit of God teach you what it is saying as whole is a completely different thing altogether.
 
I would fall somewhere between the two sides on this one.

I do agree that, in essence, Jesus did teach us pacifism. But I do not think that He wants us to always be passive. For example, someone up above said that if you were to sit by and watch your family member get raped and murdered, that you ought to have your testicles cut off. Well, I would not go that far; but there is a point to be made. If we can use the least possible force necessary in order to prevent harm done to an innocent (innocent by humans standards), then I think we are called to do so.

However, this is an extremely slippery slope and I do not know where to draw the line. We must continually seek God in prayer and continually look to the scriptures in order to gain knowledge. While the old covenant had different rules for this kind of thing, we may be able to find some clue as to how God views the issue by studying the old testament.
 
@Travis I admit I have a strong tendency towards legalism and that is a major factor in my coming here to discuss this. But the Holy Spirit should never, ever, ever be in contradiction with God's Word. I think it is easy to deceive ourselves and mistake our personal emotions with the leading of the Holy Spirit, and so I choose not to rely on feelings but rather towards the infallible Word of God, and I pray that we are all conformed in our wicked hearts AND rationalizing minds to His will. But I too like the ouch. I welcome challenge and wish for my pride and honor to be utterly destroyed, so that I may be conformed to His image. I believe what I believe, but I am imperfect, and in order for those beliefs to be challenged, I must present what is on my heart so that my wrongness can be corrected. To that end, we all grow.
What happened to the legalistic ideals of Paul on the road to Damascus? Not trying to say you are like Paul/Saul was prior to his conversion in persecuting other christians, just that legalism is the wrong path for us. Jesus had more bad things to say about the religious legalists in the pharisees, saducees, and teachers of the law than He did military people he was involved with. Put aside "kill", for some slaying in the spirit is indeed good. Death of the body is not evil, but those who promote "murder" are evil. You do understand that dont you?
Oh yes, and I am not angered at you, just wanting you to seek the will of the Holy Spirit. Do not be afraid of your emotions betraying you, just recognize you have emotions, those things that God gave you and called it "good", but use them, and not let them use you.
 
What happened to the legalistic ideals of Paul on the road to Damascus? Not trying to say you are like Paul/Saul was prior to his conversion in persecuting other christians, just that legalism is the wrong path for us. Jesus had more bad things to say about the religious legalists in the pharisees, saducees, and teachers of the law than He did military people he was involved with. Put aside "kill", for some slaying in the spirit is indeed good. Death of the body is not evil, but those who promote "murder" are evil. You do understand that dont you?
Oh yes, and I am not angered at you, just wanting you to seek the will of the Holy Spirit. Do not be afraid of your emotions betraying you, just recognize you have emotions, those things that God gave you and called it "good", but use them, and not let them use you.

Most of the bad things Jesus said about the Pharisee's weren't because they kept the law, it was because they didn't. They were legalistic, but about the wrong things.

Matt 15:1; Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Matt 15:2; "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Matt 15:3; And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matt 15:4; "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Matt 15:5; "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Matt 15:6; he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Matt 15:7; "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matt 15:8; 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Matt 15:9; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

Mark 7:5; The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
Mark 7:6; And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
Mark 7:8; "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
Mark 7:9; He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

Matt 23:13;
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matt 23:23; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

 
Most of the bad things Jesus said about the Pharisee's weren't because they kept the law, it was because they didn't. They were legalistic, but about the wrong things.

Matt 23:13; "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Of course it wasnt because they kept the law, they didnt, they just preached that others should, and they were good at hiding thier own faults and seeming white as snow so as to feel more righteous in condemning others. The example in the woman "caught" in sexual immorality where to "keep" the law, means she should be stoned, but when Jesus said let those without sin to cast the first stone. When they all slunk away, Jesus told her that her accusers were gone and to go and sin no more. Officially Jesus should have cast the first stone as He was sinless, and stoning the woman WAS part of the law. But above the law of Moses, is the law of Mercy. The legalistic response should have been for Jesus to cast the first stone and the others follow. Yet He chose mercy. A true message there to all.
 
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