Christians and the milita

[Hopeful_One]

Look back on the context in which the word "conscience" was used. No qualifier was offered, and It was lumped in with morals. The implication was clear that "conscience," in the context it was offered ('If it feels good, it must be right.'), is totally subjective and thus is of the flesh.


I am fully aware of every use of the word "conscience" in the AV. Again, it is clear from the context, which of the two (the conscience of the saved, or of the unsaved) was being illustrated. I simply responded in like kind.

There is a way that to a man seems right, but the end of that is death.

Let's focus not on tangential issues, but on the OP's issue of authority.

Your use of scripture is corrupted when you misuse words, so it is not "tangential." Neither do I agree with your interpretation of authority as it is not scriptural either.

 

[lawrenceb]

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Matt 22:21 (KJV) So Jesus did not disobey all govt because they were corrupt in some ways.

Rather, Jesus IS the gov’t -- not Caesar! There is only one Lawgiver.

The apostles also tells us to obey lawful magistrates, etc.

Please show us just ONE “lawful magistrate.”

Do you drive a car or truck? Do you have a license to drive it in your state? Or is there something evil about requiring a license of every driver and knowing the rules of the road?

Yours is the response of one who can see no other way but the way of Caesar. As I intimated in a previous post, there is much one needs to learn of God’s Law to be able to walk in true liberty, not beholden to any man.

A license requires us to

1. make an image, a picture,
2. accept a number (mark) from the government (beast),
3. lie about being a witness to our own birth,
4. deny our lawfully spelled Christian name and accept a fictitiously spelled ALL CAPS name in its place, and,
5. commit idolatry by giving allegiance and preference to the laws of man above the Laws of our Creator.

All of which provokes God to anger.

Who do you place as Lord over your life? Who do you look to for your authority for doing the things you do? What do you claim is your authority for marriage, preaching, fishing, having pets, working, or driving a car? If you have a license from the government to do these things, then you look to Caesar for your authority to do the things you do. If you rely solely upon the Scriptures to do these things, then you look to God for your authority to do the things you do. Either you believe, "I can do all things through the government which strengtheneth me", or you believe, "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" (Philippians 4:13). You cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:13).

The only purposes of a license is to regulate commercial activity which is subject to the police power.

A license is "a permit granted by an appropriate governmental body generally for consideration to a person, firm, or a corporation to pursue some occupation, or to carry on some business, which is subject to regulation under the police power." Rosenblatt v. California Board of Pharmacy, 69 Cal. App. 2d 69, 158 P.2d 199, 203.

Are the godly works of God done as business? Are godly works under the police power? You decide.

In addition, licenses cost money. The government is giving us things at a cost. God himself said he would "freely give us all things" (Romans 8:32). What right has man to charge for something God already gave us for free?

A license is just another form of taxation. By requiring a license, the state is claiming complete control and ownership over a disciple's life, liberty, and property. In demanding licensure from the servants of Christ, the State is asking that we render to it the submission and tribute that scripture requires us to give to God alone (Matthew 4:10). Jesus Christ's assembly does not exist on paper, but in the hearts of men, and is expressed in their outward acts. Because there is no breath of Life from God in such pieces of paper, we should not look to them for any authority for doing anything. Christ is our authority for doing the things we do (Philippians 4:13). Man is ruled by Law, not by the will of man.

God does have patience with us, but his patience, as his word shows, does run out. And we have to take those things into consideration. In other words, when you learn these things, you don't have to go out and get rid of all your licenses immediately, we're not promoting that idea. But consider these things and say, "Am I attached to these things through the Will of God or though the will of man?" That's what we're talking about. We need to proceed cautiously as the Spirit of God leads us, and don't make any rash decisions. You have to go to him and pray, because he will show you the way out of these things. Everybody's situation is different.

We are not here to judge anybody and say, "Well, you're a heathen because you have all these licenses." Well, we used to have all these licenses, we don't have them anymore, but we understand your situation. We have all had this over-whelming feeling when this Truth was revealed to us. And it looks like an insurmountable thing to do away with them, but it isn't because we have eliminated them all out of our lives, but we've done it over a period of time. Sometimes it takes years. In most cases, especially when you have a family, we have to consider that the Lord says he who does not take care of his family is worse than an infidel. We have responsibilities before the Lord, and if we have to remain in servitude and slavery to fulfill those obligations, then we have to do that with patience, looking to the day when you can be free from debt, free from licensure, and free from all these obligations that you've gotten yourself into.

The important thing is to know that they are not of God, and once you do that, he knows your heart and he will give you the time to do those things, if you willingly submit to him. By "willingly," I mean when that call comes to you, you don't resist it. Only God can set you free. Once you get rid of all the licenses and burdens of the world, your heart still has to be true.

Note the example of Daniel and his three friends (captives) who lived in a heathen nation. They did not have a problem with just laws, but the unjust and evil laws. When Nebuchadnezzar commanded men to bow down to his idol, they would not. Neither did they eat the meat (most likely sacrificed to false gods) provided to them, but found a way to avoid it. Daniel continued to obey God within those evil realms and was thrown to the lions for disobedience to an unjust and evil law. But he was a chief counselor to one king and a president under another, yet God mightily was with him and he affected the entire world because of his stand and the mighty things God had him do within those corrupt nations.

This is all good.

Paul used his place as being born a Roman citizen several times during his ministry as an apostle. He used the law to appeal to Caesar. Jesus and his disciples were under the rule of Rome, but still lived within the confines of just laws. Yet they we free as the servants of Christ to obey God in the face of laws that forbid them to not obey the Lord, willing to suffer the consequences.

Paul was not a citizen of the State -- a topic for another post/thread.

 

[amadeus2]

@amadeus2
Does God's truth change? Does God change? He says, "I am the Lord, I change not." Jesus tells us heaven and earth will pass away but his words remain forever. So do the principles of right and wrong vary according to our personalities? They do not. Even in the scripture you quote, the person who did not have as much light as another was still "beaten with few stripes." The punishment may vary, but that act of doing wrong is still punished. Wrong is still wrong, right is still right.
In the case of say, the Iraq War. Was the war just or unjust according to the views of the soldiers who fought or was it just or unjust according to the reasons for going to war?
If a man kills others in an unjust war, is his act of murder justified because of his lack of knowledge? The person killed on the other side is still dead. Had our nation not gone to war, that man and thousands of other men, women, and children would still be alive. Will people involved and supporting the unjust war be held accountable? Yes. Does God require that soldier who killed to repent of his wrongdoing? Yes, he does.

Yes, "wrong is still wrong, right is still right", but where does that leave one man compared to another man when their definitions of wrong and right differ? Consider first the words penned by the apostle Paul:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

As to the man who kills another without really understanding what he is doing, must he be punished or chastised? In the OT under the law given to Moses a sin of ignorance when it became known did require an atonement. Since God has not changed and He is no respecter of persons He would hardly require less of us, would He?

What is wrong to God and what is right to Him? Is there always a 'black and white answer' for every man? Until we clearly know the answer in any given specific situation, should we not refrain from rendering a final judgment?

 

[lawrenceb]

There is no other legitimate purpose for any human action than the advancement of the Kingdom of God. Patriotism (advancing the interests of a political coalition) is wrong; Humanism (advancing your own personal interests) is wrong; Satanism (advancing demonic interests) is wrong. Since all action runs to some purpose, if the purpose is not the building of God's Kingdom, then it is to build a rival Kingdom. There is no neutrality. The State cannot be impartial and non-religious.

What is wrong to God and what is right to Him? Is there always a 'black and white answer' for every man? Until we clearly know the answer in any given specific situation, should we not refrain from rendering a final judgment?

"...those that do not understand shall fall..." -- Hosea 4:14

"Let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

And remember, even Caesar agrees that ignorance of the law is no excuse:

"It is stated frequently that everyone is conclusively presumed to know the law." Holland v. Atlantic Stevendoor & Co. 210 Aff'd. 129, 205 NYS 397.

Institutions premised on sin e.g. the military-industrial complex, must not be redeemed, but abandoned. We cannot send young men into the hell of war in the interests of “equal time for peacekeeping.”

As the light of the world, we must set the standard. Our Lord never called his people to help build the tower of Babel in the hope of getting a Bible study in the basement. He commanded us to build our own city on a hill.

 

[amadeus2]

There is no other legitimate purpose for any human action than the advancement of the Kingdom of God. Patriotism (advancing the interests of a political coalition) is wrong; Humanism (advancing your own personal interests) is wrong; Satanism (advancing demonic interests) is wrong. Since all action runs to some purpose, if the purpose is not the building of God's Kingdom, then it is to build a rival Kingdom. There is no neutrality. The State cannot be impartial and non-religious.
"...those that do not understand shall fall..." -- Hosea 4:14

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

"Let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall."

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"

And remember, even Caesar agrees that ignorance of the law is no excuse:

"It is stated frequently that everyone is conclusively presumed to know the law." Holland v. Atlantic Stevendoor & Co. 210 Aff'd. 129, 205 NYS 397.

Ignorance may be no excuse, but a fair judge will still consider how a person does or does not know in determining his judgment. So will God. There is certainly a difference between negligent homicide and premeditated murder.

"Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering." Numb 15:24

"But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people." Numb 15:30

Institutions premised on sin e.g. the military-industrial complex, must not be redeemed, but abandoned. We cannot send young men into the hell of war in the interests of “equal time for peacekeeping.”

This is your judgment based upon your own experience and knowledge. Not everyone has the same experience and knowledge. Only God always see what everyone of us sees.

As the light of the world, we must set the standard. Our Lord never called his people to help build the tower of Babel in the hope of getting a Bible study in the basement. He commanded us to build our own city on a hill.

Our standard is a problem, isn't it? As soon as we use the 1st person plural instead of the 1st person singular, we have included others in our decision. God, of course, is able to do that, but any time we do, if what we say or do is not what God has put in our heart to speak from our mouth, we are, or I am, or you are, in trouble. Yes, you have said "as the light of the world", but there are a lot who presume they are the Light who disagree sharply with others presuming they are the Light.

 

[lawrenceb]

Ignorance may be no excuse, but a fair judge will still consider how a person does or does not know in determining his judgment. So will God. There is certainly a difference between negligent homicide and premeditated murder.

A moot point. It sounds good, but the reality is that there are no “fair judges” in the corporation that is USA Inc. There are no Lawful courts in USA Inc., only legal courts.

This is your judgment based upon your own experience and knowledge. Not everyone has the same experience and knowledge. Only God always see what everyone of us sees.

You and I can have differing renditions of the facts, but the Truth is immutable. There’s no “judgment” here, but simple observation of the researchable documentable facts of the matter. And ignorance remains no excuse.

USA Inc. is a corporation, a dead thing at Law. It has no jurisdiction over the free flesh and blood man in Christ -- unless that man voluntarily aligns himself with that dead thing. The only Lawful way that such a dead thing can acquire jurisdiction over you is to make you the same as it, i.e. dead; hence, for example, the reason for the ALL CAPS legal fiction that most reading this have accepted from the corp. as their identity and thus become surety for the straw man legal fiction that the corp. has invented. I couldn’t wait to get my ALL CAPS legal fiction driver license when I reached age 15; how about you?

Our standard is a problem, isn't it? As soon as we use the 1st person plural instead of the 1st person singular, we have included others in our decision. God, of course, is able to do that, but any time we do, if what we say or do is not what God has put in our heart to speak from our mouth, we are, or I am, or you are, in trouble.

I am not “in trouble” here, as what you’ve read is what God would have me to say. Again, renditions can differ, but the Truth is immutable. Ostensibly “we” i.e. born again believers (not merely those who would appropriate the label of ”Christian”) are a single body.

Yes, you have said "as the light of the world", but there are a lot who presume they are the Light who disagree sharply with others presuming they are the Light.

Numbers 15:30, "But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

Deuteronomy 17:13, "And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously."

Psalms 19:13, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression."

We’re confronted by presumptions or accusations often. You'll know what it's based on, and it's based on natural reason. Unless it's an unrebuttable presumption where, in fact, you have committed evil, and there's a witness. But we're confronted with rebuttable presumptions every day and we probably don't know it because we're trained to answer their questions. We've already been conditioned with a response.

Presumptions are something that the natural man has created. The natural man comes up with a presumption and they cast a burden on you to prove otherwise. The natural man presumes evil, and those who presume evil where there is no evil, they are wicked men. You either serve Christ or you serve man, and that's why man will presume evil because that's what they involve themselves in, and that's all they see. Until you bring the Light of the Word to them and shine the light on them, and that does away with the evil if what you bring to them is the truth. The only way you're going to be able to rebut their presumption is to bring the Sword of the Word to them, to bring the Truth to them. That is the only thing which will overcome wickedness, and that's our duty.

Here's a typical definition of presumption:

Presumptions: "A Presumption is but a rule of procedure used to supply wants of facts and its only effect is to cast burden on opposite party of going forward with proof." Chechy v. City of Hamtrunk, Mich. 170 NW 2nd 58.

This all stems out of reason. And the reason they do that is because everyone is in the world (not necessarily of the world) and when we're in the world we are in tribulation, and this is part of the tribulation; the natural man presuming evil.

A typical example of a presumptuous question would be something like, "Have you beaten your wife lately?" Either a "yes" or "no" answer is bad. This question "presumes" you have beaten your wife already. If you answer "yes," you admit guilt. If you answer "No," you still admit to having beat your wife, just not lately. Their presumptuous questions steer your mind to the answers they want. In scripture, you don't find where God asks a leading question.

What else is new? Nothing; there is no new thing under the sun. Men pleasers, or God pleasers? We must make a choice, therefore we must make our choice wisely.

 

[amadeus2]

A moot point. It sounds good, but the reality is that there are no “fair judges” in the corporation that is USA Inc. There are no Lawful courts in USA Inc., only legal courts.

There are never any judges who judge fairly? Is that not a blanket statement made with incomplete knowledge?

You and I can have differing renditions of the facts, but the Truth is immutable. There’s no “judgment” here, but simple observation of the researchable documentable facts of the matter. And ignorance remains no excuse.

Man's rules generally may offer few or any outs, but God does provide mercy at times when and where it is undeserved. Jesus being the Truth, was merciful when the letter of the law would not have been.

USA Inc. is a corporation, a dead thing at Law. It has no jurisdiction over the free flesh and blood man in Christ -- unless that man voluntarily aligns himself with that dead thing. The only Lawful way that such a dead thing can acquire jurisdiction over you is to make you the same as it, i.e. dead; hence, for example, the reason for the ALL CAPS legal fiction that most reading this have accepted from the corp. as their identity and thus become surety for the straw man legal fiction that the corp. has invented. I couldn’t wait to get my ALL CAPS legal fiction driver license when I reached age 15; how about you?

People are in every case "dead" until and if they have received the Life which Jesus brought.

I am not “in trouble” here, as what you’ve read is what God would have me to say. Again, renditions can differ, but the Truth is immutable. Ostensibly “we” i.e. born again believers (not merely those who would appropriate the label of ”Christian”) are a single body.Numbers 15:30, "But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

Anyone who has not already overcome all of the world standing between him and God will continue to run into trouble.

Deuteronomy 17:13, "And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously."

Psalms 19:13, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression."

We’re confronted by presumptions or accusations often. You'll know what it's based on, and it's based on natural reason. Unless it's an unrebuttable presumption where, in fact, you have committed evil, and there's a witness. But we're confronted with rebuttable presumptions every day and we probably don't know it because we're trained to answer their questions. We've already been conditioned with a response.

Presumptions are something that the natural man has created. The natural man comes up with a presumption and they cast a burden on you to prove otherwise. The natural man presumes evil, and those who presume evil where there is no evil, they are wicked men. You either serve Christ or you serve man, and that's why man will presume evil because that's what they involve themselves in, and that's all they see. Until you bring the Light of the Word to them and shine the light on them, and that does away with the evil if what you bring to them is the truth. The only way you're going to be able to rebut their presumption is to bring the Sword of the Word to them, to bring the Truth to them. That is the only thing which will overcome wickedness, and that's our duty.

The natural man is born in sin for he is born dead. He will remain dead until he takes hold of Life. When a person does receive even a little bit of real Life, his only Hope still is in the Lord.

What else is new? Nothing; there is no new thing under the sun. Men pleasers, or God pleasers? We must make a choice, therefore we must make our choice wisely.

Amen, choose to work with God while it is still day for soon the night cometh when no man can work...

 

[lawrenceb]

As per the OP, we’re trying to shine the light on the worldly tradition of war making.

There are never any judges who judge fairly? Is that not a blanket statement made with incomplete knowledge?

Judges are bound by the rules of the corporation, and the corporation is a dead thing. When folks, as the free flesh-and-blood man in Christ, voluntarily pose as surety via the use of Caesar’s ALL CAPS legal fiction “NAME,” they can call themselves “Christian” or born again all day long; the outcome will be the same: my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. They have taken on the words of the world to define themselves, rather than the words of Christ to describe themselves. They are serving two masters.

Most reading this are in bondage and they don’t even know it. (For example, the average debt burden for the USA Inc. citizen is $14,000, even as the word says do not borrow (Deu.)).

They lash out with the conditioned political/worldly rhetoric that only drives them deeper into that worldly bondage. Wouldn’t it be awesome to be truly free from that image of the beast?

Presently, they hail from Caesar’s world, because they speak as one of the world and have borne no evidence to the contrary. In fact, they carry the evidence of their allegiance to the world in spades (e.g. State-issued birth certificate, driver license, voter registration card, social security card, etc. etc.. But do not despair, as there is a way out.)

To be blunt about it, every bondman of Christ is presumed to be acting in the mode and character of a pagan (i.e., in commerce) because he has borne or given no evidence to the contrary. Is this not bearing false witness? In other words, when a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him (Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6).

Counting on the arbitrary and capricious “mercy” of Caesar’s rep’s/judges is as foolhardy as following Satan himself.

Man's rules generally may offer few or any outs, but God does provide mercy at times when and where it is undeserved. Jesus being the Truth, was merciful when the letter of the law would not have been.

Should we then sin more that grace might abound?

People are in every case "dead" until and if they have received the Life which Jesus brought.

And then they vacate that standing by becoming of the world again.

Anyone who has not already overcome all of the world standing between him and God will continue to run into trouble.

...which describes the situation for the vast majority of USA Inc. citizens today, even as jack-booted gov’t thugs are banging on their castle doors. It’s gonna take something other than a false hope in God’s mercy to save them. Folks don’ wanna be told that they actually need to DO something; they only want to be reassured that their TV remote and creamed coffee are ever at the ready.

The natural man is born in sin for he is born dead. He will remain dead until he takes hold of Life. When a person does receive even a little bit of real Life, his only Hope still is in the Lord.

Rather, by sin, death entered into the world. We need to DO something; we need to stop sinning. And participating in the things of Caesar’s (e.g. military) is to participate in death.

 

[amadeus2]

As per the OP, we’re trying to shine the light on the worldly tradition of war making.
Judges are bound by the rules of the corporation, and the corporation is a dead thing. When folks, as the free flesh-and-blood man in Christ, voluntarily pose as surety via the use of Caesar’s ALL CAPS legal fiction “NAME,” they can call themselves “Christian” or born again all day long; the outcome will be the same: my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. They have taken on the words of the world to define themselves, rather than the words of Christ to describe themselves. They are serving two masters.

Anyone who ever sins at all and anyone who has not completely overcome the world as Jesus did is serving two masters. James was not writing to unbelievers, but to believers when he called them "double minded".

Most reading this are in bondage and they don’t even know it. (For example, the average debt burden for the USA Inc. citizen is $14,000, even as the word says do not borrow (Deu.)).

You mean perhaps that most people in the USA are in bondage, to which I would probably agree. Those reading this are definitely considerably fewer than the population if the USA. Most of that population including most people bearing the label of Christian would never visit a Christian Internet forum IMHO.

They lash out with the conditioned political/worldly rhetoric that only drives them deeper into that worldly bondage. Wouldn’t it be awesome to be truly free from that image of the beast?

Many may lash as you indicate, but there are still a few. Remember God's words to Elijah when presumed he was the only one serving God?

"Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." I Kings 19:18

Seven thousand was still undoubtedly few compared to the population of Israel, but it was a lot more than Elijah had recognized.

Presently, they hail from Caesar’s world, because they speak as one of the world and have borne no evidence to the contrary. In fact, they carry the evidence of their allegiance to the world in spades (e.g. State-issued birth certificate, driver license, voter registration card, social security card, etc. etc.. But do not despair, as there is a way out.)

Yes, there is a way out of the hell of this world, but some few have found that way. Some of them may be right here on this forum.

To be blunt about it, every bondman of Christ is presumed to be acting in the mode and character of a pagan (i.e., in commerce) because he has borne or given no evidence to the contrary. Is this not bearing false witness? In other words, when a man professes to be a follower and ambassador of Christ and yet acts in a manner that tells the whole world that he is a pagan, then he is bearing false witness to the whole world. These Christians honor God with their lips, but their heart is far from him (Isaiah 29:13, Matthew 15:8, Mark 7:6).

While I would agree that there is too much lip service and not enough real service, don't throw them all out without more definite evidence. The final judgment belongs to God because He alone has all of the evidence.

Counting on the arbitrary and capricious “mercy” of Caesar’s rep’s/judges is as foolhardy as following Satan himself.

I don't count on such mercy, but it is not because it never exists, even if that existence may be for the wrong reasons:

"Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith." Luke 18:5-6

Should we then sin more that grace might abound?And then they vacate that standing by becoming of the world again....which describes the situation for the vast majority of USA Inc. citizens today, even as jack-booted gov’t thugs are banging on their castle doors. It’s gonna take something other than a false hope in God’s mercy to save them. Folks don’ wanna be told that they actually need to DO something; they only want to be reassured that their TV remote and creamed coffee are ever at the ready.Rather, by sin, death entered into the world. We need to DO something; we need to stop sinning. And participating in the things of Caesar’s (e.g. military) is to participate in death.

A lot may be correct in what you say, but why rant so strongly here? Aren't the exceptional few who are finding and choosing the strait and narrow gate more like to be found here? Jesus didn't run people down very much even though they may have deserved it:

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17

As for the "jack-booted gov't thugs", while we may be on the approach to a Nazi-like regime, a little slack still does remain. Remember again Jesus' words:

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." Matt 5:7


" I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

 

[lawrenceb]

James was not writing to unbelievers, but to believers when he called them "double minded".

Of course. Double minded = dipsuchos = two spirited. (And there are only two spirits to choose from!)

You mean perhaps that most people in the USA are in bondage, to which I would probably agree. Those reading this are definitely considerably fewer than the population if the USA. Most of that population including most people bearing the label of Christian would never visit a Christian Internet forum IMHO.

There’s nothing sacrosanct about this site. It’s a fact that the “Christian” community’s problems, on average, parallel those of the world at large.

Many may lash as you indicate, but there are still a few. Remember God's words to Elijah when presumed he was the only one serving God?
"Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." I Kings 19:18

Seven thousand was still undoubtedly few compared to the population of Israel, but it was a lot more than Elijah had recognized.

So what are YOU/WE going to DO about it?

Yes, there is a way out of the hell of this world, but some few have found that way. Some of them may be right here on this forum.

Come on down!

While I would agree that there is too much lip service and not enough real service, don't throw them all out without more definite evidence. The final judgment belongs to God because He alone has all of the evidence.

I’m not throwing anyone out; that’s God’s call. As far as evidence, it’s all over the place, a small portion of which I have exposed here.

A lot may be correct in what you say, but why rant so strongly here?

“Rant”? Rather, reprove, admonish, correct -- not look for excuses to continue as before.

Aren't the exceptional few who are finding and choosing the strait and narrow gate more like to be found here?

The pagans also accept Jesus Christ as, “don’t you know, he’s just another ascended master.” Rather, a proper witness does not begin with mollycoddling. It begins with “You are sinning, and the wages of sin is death.”

Jesus didn't run people down very much even though they may have deserved it...

And now you hate me because I tell you the truth?

As for the "jack-booted gov't thugs", while we may be on the approach to a Nazi-like regime, a little slack still does remain.

“on the approach” and “a little slack”? You’re joking, right? Ye cannot discern the signs of the times; the question is, why not?

 

[amadeus2]

There’s nothing sacrosanct about this site. It’s a fact that the “Christian” community’s problems, on average, parallel those of the world at large.

The something special is in people who are putting first His kingdom and His righteous.

So what are YOU/WE going to DO about it?

God has a plan and it is working toward completion whether you or I are in it or not. The "whether" is up to you and I. The "doing" is God's work which He is doing in people who are allowing it. Give God always the glory.

Come on down!

To where but to the Lord? In him alone is any positive solution. Down is the right direction for we must always start at the bottom. Then when we are yielded will He lift us up.

I’m not throwing anyone out; that’s God’s call.

We agree on this.

As far as evidence, it’s all over the place, a small portion of which I have exposed here.

The evidence to which I referred was against specific individuals. Only God and possibly the person knows what evidence is against the person. We can see generally that mankind is for the most part has lost sight of or has never been able to see Hope, but we cannot always see the good that is some people's hearts. God may open our eyes to see a bit of others for His purposes, but certainly not for ours.

Rant”? Rather, reprove, admonish, correct -- not look for excuses to continue as before.

No excuses from me. I have sinned and com short of His glory, but I have grown since I first believed. The work is not finished yet. The Master Builder continues wherever He is allowed.

The pagans also accept Jesus Christ as, “don’t you know, he’s just another ascended master.” Rather, a proper witness does not begin with mollycoddling. It begins with “You are sinning, and the wages of sin is death.”

Many are called, but few are chosen. When and if we are chosen we will also be given what is needed.

And now you hate me because I tell you the truth?

Do I hate you? I think not. Do you tell the truth? In at least a measure.

“on the approach” and “a little slack”? You’re joking, right? Ye cannot discern the signs of the times; the question is, why not?

The "Door" is still open, but the time is growing short. But the end is not yet and therein lies the "slack". Until it is gone...?

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

 

[lawrenceb]

From the OP, the very first sentence:

One attempt I have been making to discern if a teacher truly believes in Jesus' words involves whether or not they believe it is acceptable for a Christian to join the military.

We’ve illustrated the hypocrisy and double mindedness that is the result of trying to serve two masters ala the oxymoronic “Christian military.”

When criminal elements have a position of control and authority within the government, believers have an obligation to resist them--not to twist the scriptures into justification for compliance with an ungodly government.

Satan is a merchandiser (Ezekiel 28:16), a trafficker (Ezekiel 28:18). Satan offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus in the wilderness:

“Again, the devil taketh [Jesus] up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me” (Matthew 4:8, 9).

The merchants, the kings of the earth, sell souls of men (Revelation 18:11-13). They also sell the persons of men (Ezekiel 27:8); person = Latin persona = status; reputation; an actor’s mask These rich men are deceitful; they buy the poor and needy and they use false balances, balances of deceit (Amos 8:4-6; Micah 6:10-12; Hosea 12:7). They love to oppress (Amos 2:6). Merchants and sellers violate the sabbath (Nehemiah 13:15-20). The deeds of the rich are wicked (Micah 2:1-9).

Anyone who engages in commerce (profiteering; pursuit of mammon) comes under Caesar's jurisdiction (“Caesar” = ungodly government). The merchants, the rich men of the earth, the great men of the earth, are identified with the ungodly authority:

“The kings set themselves, and the rulers take counsel against the Lord and his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us” (Psalm 2:2, 3).

“Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.... Lord, behold their threatenings...” (Acts 4:25, 26, 29).

“Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off” (Hosea 8:3, 4).

This is where many stumble with the reality that there is a counterfeit “authority” seeking our obeisance! Satan said, “I will be like the most High” (Isaiah 14:14).

It is Satan’s “higher power” that is behind the merchants, the rich men of the earth, the present temporal “governing authorities.”

Satan is “the god of this world” (II Corinthians 4:4), “this present evil world” (Galatians 1:4); there is no Godly ordination there.

We have a choice as to which purported authority we submit to and therefore “serve.” God’s authority is above all the “government institutions” of men.

Why does God “allow” ungodly “governments?” What is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten his people. God uses heathens to chasten his people.

We are to place ourselves under God’s jurisdiction, living in God’s kingdom. And we're not going to be perfect, we may fall and do wrong, but we are to check everything that we're doing. And if we do something that's against God's Word, we repent immediately to renew our mind. That's how we renew our mind, by repenting to the King and saying, "I'm sorry. I did not want to do that. It's a habit, it's the way that I learned in the world. Help break me of that." And he does help us if our heart is truly after him. And if you don't repent, he has the natural man right there as a rod of correction for you, and that's what man's codes, rules, regulations and military machine all about.

If we be without chastisement, we would not be his sons. But he loves us, so God uses a rod of correction to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course.

Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13, "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."

As we know, everything the Lord allows to exist is for his purposes. Why does man's law exist? Why do people look to it for truth? It's simply because they've turned their backs on the Lord and his Law.

In the plan of God, the humanist has always been God's rod to wake the sleeping disciple and get him back on course. If man is the center of 'the world,' and he created all these legal personalities, then the police power is God's rod of correction to get you out of the world, to make things a hotbed of coals to where it is uncomfortable for you to stay there. So, if you're going to come out of the world, then you shed, what is called, all those legal personalities that the world has placed upon you, and you do not answer to them anymore, because your mind has been renewed in the mind of Christ (Ephesians 4:23, Colossians 3:10).

An officer does need a warrant in law to do what he is doing. However, if you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, and partaking of the unclean things, then that man (who you say is ungodly, doing ungodly things against you) is actually God's rod of correction to drive you back to where you should be. If you're not chastened by our Father, then you're a bast--rd, meaning you're a son of the world, and you will not share the privileges of God's children.

Hebrews 12:8, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

Job 5:17, "Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:"

Again, what is the purpose of man's law? It is God's rod of correction. God uses man's law to chasten his people. God uses heathens to chasten his people.

Psalms 125:3, "For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity."

Psalms 106:39-48, "Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a -horing with their own inventions. Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance. And he gave them into the hand of the heathen; and they that hated them ruled over them. Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into subjection under their hand. Many times did he deliver them; but they provoked him with their counsel, and were brought low for their iniquity. Nevertheless he regarded their affliction, when he heard their cry: And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies. He made them also to be pitied of all those that carried them captives. Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise. Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD."

Ezekiel 31:11, "I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness."

Ezekiel 39:27-28, "When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen..."

So, even though you may be righteous and you're following his ways, as soon as you put your hands into iniquity, "the rod of the wicked" (that's his rod) will be there to drive you back to him.

2 Samuel 7:14, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. And when he happens to transgress, then will I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the sons of men:"

Even though we're his son, if we walk away from his Law, he will use "the rod of men" to chasten us and drive us back to him. Gentile and Pagan armies may be God's armies. For example, the Chaldeans who destroyed Zion are called "his army" (Joel 2:11); the Assyrians are called "the rod of mine anger" (Isaiah 10:5); and the Medes under Cyrus are termed God's "sanctified ones" and "mighty ones" for his anger (Isaiah 13:3, 17). Likewise, Jacob (i.e. the nation of Israel) is the Lord's "battle ax" and "weapons of war" that he uses to chastise other nations (Jeremiah 51:20).

Proverbs 22:15, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

It is foolish to partake of the ways of the world, and "the rod of correction" will drive that from us. What's interesting is that scripture shows us how God will use the ungodly as a rod of correction, but the natural man doesn't realize that they're there for God’s purpose. Isaiah 10:5-15 shows that even though God will use the king of Assyria to drive God’s people back to him, the king doesn't know it. He boasts about how powerful he is and attributes everything to himself, but he's actually God's rod of correction, just like all governments are.

Jeremiah 5:3, "O LORD, are not thine eyes upon the truth? thou hast stricken them, but they have not grieved; thou hast consumed them, but they have refused to receive correction: they have made their faces harder than a rock; they have refused to return."

So, we see the purpose of his rod of correction is to return us to him. And we also see from this passage that there are many who will not be driven back to him by it. But don't despise his chastening.

Proverbs 3:11-12, "My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth."

It is important to understand that the purpose of God allowing "Caesar" (i.e. ungodly government) to be in power is to test and prove his children, to see if they will keep the Laws of God or the laws of the heathen (Judges 2:21; 3:4).

The "Door" is still open, but the time is growing short. But the end is not yet and therein lies the "slack". Until it is gone...?

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

Look around you; God’s rod of correction is at the ready.

Yes, of course there is hope -- IF we REPENT, God will restore, and he will heal our land. That’s all it would take. Let’s say, the USA takes one day off, just one day, from the president all the way down to the street sweeper, we all agree to take just one day off and repent. How likely do you think that is gonna happen? Well, then, you’d better prepare for the coming persecution, because it is at the door.

America is under judgment, and that judgment will begin at the house of God. God is not mocked and he WILL clean house in whatever fashion he sees fit.

The principle of the watchman of Ezekiel tells the shepherds that if they fail to warn of impending danger to the flock, "...his blood will I require at thine hand." (Eze. 33:8) Folks continue to reign in arrogance claiming "I sit a queen [or bride] and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." (Rev. 18:7) For centuries, "They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you." (Jer. 23:17)

In the meantime, it is a prudent course of action to continue to warn all who will listen that the great threshing floor is immediately in front of us. I believe the tribulation has begun, and the wheat and the tares will both be in it -- all the way to the harvest. While many just shrug it off and say 'God will provide,' it may be that God has been telling believers to prepare for those days.

I urge all Christians to prepare NOW. Store some food. Save some water. Think in terms of survival in a physical sense. Sleeping bags and blankets are always in demand during difficult times. During natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes, relief agencies always need medicine, food, and clothing. Almost anyone can afford basic camping supplies. There is much that you can do -- even on a limited budget.

 

[amadeus2]

From the OP, the very first sentence:
Look around you; God’s rod of correction is at the ready.

Yes, of course there is hope -- IF we REPENT, God will restore, and he will heal our land. That’s all it would take. Let’s say, the USA takes one day off, just one day, from the president all the way down to the street sweeper, we all agree to take just one day off and repent. How likely do you think that is gonna happen? Well, then, you’d better prepare for the coming persecution, because it is at the door.

America is under judgment, and that judgment will begin at the house of God. God is not mocked and he WILL clean house in whatever fashion he sees fit.

The principle of the watchman of Ezekiel tells the shepherds that if they fail to warn of impending danger to the flock, "...his blood will I require at thine hand." (Eze. 33:8) Folks continue to reign in arrogance claiming "I sit a queen [or bride] and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." (Rev. 18:7) For centuries, "They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you." (Jer. 23:17)

In the meantime, it is a prudent course of action to continue to warn all who will listen that the great threshing floor is immediately in front of us. I believe the tribulation has begun, and the wheat and the tares will both be in it -- all the way to the harvest. While many just shrug it off and say 'God will provide,' it may be that God has been telling believers to prepare for those days.

Without a mouth filled with God's words, there is no warning. Without ears to hear, who will hear and heed even God's warning? Jesus warned with his Father's words but few could hear and few of those who could, would. Rather they persecuted and crucified Him! Should we expect less?

"Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

I urge all Christians to prepare NOW. Store some food. Save some water. Think in terms of survival in a physical sense. Sleeping bags and blankets are always in demand during difficult times. During natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes, relief agencies always need medicine, food, and clothing. Almost anyone can afford basic camping supplies. There is much that you can do -- even on a limited budget.

Now this admonition as I see it is foolishness. Would the five foolish virgins have saved themselves by storing natural food and water, by having blankets to keep them warm? There is a preparation that is needed but the preservation of the flesh is not it.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34

Our flesh is dying and it will die... but...

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 14:25-26

 

[lawrenceb]

...few could hear and few of those who could, would [heed].

Ignorance remains blissful, for a season only...

Now this admonition [to prepare now] as I see it is foolishness.

As you’ve evinced, few “see it”. Therefore, pray that he would open their (and your) eyes to the truth and give you the courage to DO what he tells you to do.

If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?...As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... -- Eze. 33:10-11

If when [the watchman] seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. -- Eze. 33:3-5

At this time, your blood remains on your own head.

 

[amadeus2]

Ignorance remains blissful, for a season only...


As you’ve evinced, few “see it”. Therefore, pray that he would open their (and your) eyes to the truth and give you the courage to DO what he tells you to do.

If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?...As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... -- Eze. 33:10-11

If when [the watchman] seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. -- Eze. 33:3-5

At this time, your blood remains on your own head.

And (on) you as well my friend!

 

[lawrenceb]

Rather, let's take a look at the prudent man described in Proverbs. First of all, this verse is in two places in Proverbs and has the exact same wording.

A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished. (Pro 22:3; 27:12)

If this is in the Bible twice with the same wording, it bears some looking at. Let's see if this prudent person is relying on his own wisdom or on the wisdom of God. The word "prudent" used in the above verses is the same word used in the following verses.

The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit. (Pro 14:8)

The simple inherit folly: but the prudent are crowned with knowledge. (Pro 14:18)

The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going. (Pro 14:15)

A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame. (Pro 12:16)

A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness. (Pro 12:23)

Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly. (Pro 13:16)

From the above verses, I would really like to be the prudent one that is described above. I'm not saying that I am, but I would certainly choose to struggle to attain the wisdom and knowledge of the prudent. According to the above descriptions, if you are not prudent, then you are a fool. Which one would you choose to be?

So, if the prudent sees the evil which is coming and hides himself, I choose to be the prudent one instead of being punished for being foolish. In fact, there is a parable of 10 virgins that seems to correspond to this ideology.

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matt 25:1-13)

This parable seems to be speaking about preparedness. The five wise virgins already had their lamps filled whereas the five foolish virgins did not prepare ahead of time and tried to bum some from the ones that had prepared. There was not enough oil for sharing and so the foolish virgins left to go get some and were then refused entry. They were therefore punished for their non-preparation. Shouldn't we be like the wise virgins?

The majority of remnant Christians have complete faith in their eternal salvation through Jesus Christ. Whether we die from a disease, in battle, from a nuclear strike, or falling off a cliff, we are the Lord's.

You need to understand the mindset of this Christian that I am speaking about. We believe that our future and life lie totally in the Lord’s hands. We have given up dreams, aspirations, goals for our life, and yes, even family members and friends, to follow Christ. We have picked up our cross and we are following him.

Do we want to survive? Of course we do, but the Lord will choose whether we live to see him return or whether we die. It is his decision, not ours. For we must surrender all to Christ, even our lives. Does this sound like a survivalist attitude?

The next item that needs to be mentioned is in the book of Romans.

Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (Rom 12:20)

Will we feed our enemy? Yes we will. We will do our best to feed everyone that hungers and we will share with everyone in need. And if we don't have enough to feed them, then the Lord can multiply the food as he did with the fishes and the loaves, or he will provide another way.

If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink (Pro 25:21)

But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? (1 John 3:17)

He that hath a bountiful eye shall be blessed; for he giveth of his bread to the poor. (Pro 22:9)

The above verses describe his brother, his enemy, and the poor. The Lord instructs us to feed all of the above. For us to keep it only for ourselves is against God's word.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. (Matt 25:34-36)

Now, as per the OP, what about the government with its military and the New World Order?

When a government is ungodly, and people trust in that government, then God will punish those who trust in that government and obey their laws (Jeremiah 15:4; 46:25, 2 Kings 21:11-12, Isaiah 9:16, Ezekiel 11:10-12, Micah 6:13,16). The people will be cursed for trusting in man (Jeremiah 17:5, Hosea 10:13). It is better to trust in the Lord, than to put confidence in man and governments (Psalm 118:8-9). We are told not to put our trust in human governments (Psalm 146:3). We are commanded to "turn away" from those with certain characteristics (2 Timothy 3:2-5), and governing authorities possess most of these said characteristics! Governing authorities are "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away" (2 Timothy 3:5). So we are to turn away from governing authorities with these characteristics. They proclaim their own power (force), which becomes a 'law' unto itself. The law is made for evil-doers, not for the righteous (1 Timothy 1:9-10). Therefore, we are to obey God's Law, and whatever laws that man creates are irrelevant to us.

Esther 3:8, "And Haman (the highest prince in the kingdom of the Medes and the Persians) said unto king Ahasuerus (the king of the Medes and the Persians who reigned from India to Ethiopia), There is a certain people (people who were obedient to God's Laws) scattered abroad and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of thy kingdom; and their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king's laws..."

As we can see, God's children were following God's Law, which were diverse from the government's law, and his children did not keep the government's law! When one reads the book of Esther, one will see how God protected his children when they followed his law and disregarded the government's law. One cannot obey both laws, because one cannot serve two masters.

Are we to obey and to submit to them or are we to stand against them?

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29)

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Heb 13:17)

We are supposed to obey God and submit to those that are in rule over us, IF they are a Godly government. We are not to submit to a government that is going against God's word. "We ought to obey God rather than men."

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (Rom 13:1-4)

Those verses were not telling us to be subject to all rulers. You see that those verses are telling us to be subject to Godly men, ministers of God. These verses definitely do not describe our government, or the government of the Antichrist. We should not obey or submit to an evil government at any cost!

There are verses that address the act of protecting your belongings.

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (Matt 24:43)

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. (Luke 12:39)

The goodman of the house is defined as an occupant or someone who resides in a dwelling. The word "suffered" means allow. So Jesus is saying that if the occupant or resident knew when the thief would come, he would not allow him to break in.

In those days, you went after thieves with swords and staves. Here, Jesus is not rebuking the goodman for protecting his property, for he is actually expected to do so.

There are a few more verses that I would like to add that will help to show that it is not wrong to prepare. And one of those preparations may be to store items used for growing food during time of famine.

Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest. How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep: So shall thy poverty come as one that travelleth, and thy want as an armed man. (Pro 6:6-11)

We are to consider the ant's ways and be wise, who provides her meat in the summer and gathers her food in the harvest.

He that tilleth his land shall have plenty of bread: but he that followeth after vain [persons] shall have poverty enough. (Pro 28:19)

He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich. He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame. (Pro 10:4-5)

Whoso keepeth the fig tree shall eat the fruit thereof: so he that waiteth on his master shall be honoured. (Pro 27:18)

Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass. (Isa 32:20)

The above verses say that one who works the land shall have plenty of bread, and he that gathers in the summer is wise, and blessed are ye who plants beside all waters and sends forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass.

Isaiah 32:20 is actually speaking about planting to supply food during a time of famine. Let's back up a few verses and see what it says about this.

Many days and years shall ye be troubled, ye careless women: for the vintage shall fail, the gathering shall not come. Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins. They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine. (Isa 32:10-12)

That sounds like a famine to me. The grapes shall fail, the gathering shall not come, they will want for milk, pleasant fields (crops), and fruitful vines (berries, and grapes). This chapter then ends with "Blessed are ye that sow beside all waters, that send forth thither the feet of the ox and the ass."

Other related areas that could also be explored include spiritual preparation and physical defense. But those will have to wait for another time.

In summing all of this up, I can find nowhere that we are told not to prepare. There is plenty of Scripture on trusting in God. We are not preparing so that we can save our own skins.

We do not have guns and ammo so that we can take a lot of them out when we go. The simple fact is, we are preparing because the Lord has told us to do so; and we have guns and ammunition for self-defense. There is nothing that I have found in the Bible that contradicts these actions.

We are not storing food, medical supplies, or guns because we have no faith in God. He says in his word that he will supply all of our needs. Could it be possible that by having us stock up now, he is supplying our future needs? He could very possibly be supplying your future needs with the supplies we are now storing.

Please keep in mind that some day in the future, you may be very hungry, and the Lord may lead you to someone who had listened to the Lord, and had stored food. You may eat this food that God led this person to store. So, you may want to be careful who you condemn and criticize.

God frequently uses the things of this world to accomplish his will. He uses many types of people to accomplish his will. Could it be possible that he is laying on our hearts what we must do now, thereby allowing to fulfill his will later? If he is telling us to do this, and we ignore him or tell him that "I'm not going to do this because you will provide for me," will he still be obligated to supply our needs?

Please, pray, and then come back to us and share with us what the Lord has told you.

 

[amadeus2]

I see that you are sold on where you are and who am I to say nay? God gives the increase. God has increased me many times, but He will be finished with me only when there is for me, "time no more"

The time to trust and to pray is now for "today is the day the Lord hath made" and in it am I rejoicing and giving God the glory.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Let me share four verses with you that I think shed light on this issue of obeying authority.


Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:22

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution
1 Peter 2:13

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
1 Peter 2:12

Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
Titus 2:6-8

 

[lawrenceb]

From TaylorDonBarret:

Let me share four verses with you that I think shed light on this issue of obeying authority.

Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:22

Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution
1 Peter 2:13

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.
1 Peter 2:12

Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
Titus 2:6-8

The above passages do not militate against anything I have posted in this thread.

However, there is a deception being presented here that would perpetuate the myth that we are to "obey all things government, including the evil therein because, you know, God ordained all of it."

I will expose it now.

It concerns your 1 Peter 2:13 citation, sourced from a modern copyrighted version of. the Holy Bible:

"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution":

1) In truth, this verse assumes Godly government, ala "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well." - KJV. Notice the qualification; the description of what constitutes Godly government = punishment of evildoers and praise of them that do well. Period. Does that describe the authority you are obeying today?

2) However, the cited modern version uses the word "human." What does the word human mean?

Are you a 'person', an 'individual', or a 'human being'? These words, at law, define you as being spiritually 'dead.' This is how the world makes its attachment to you. The terms, 'person', 'individual', 'human being', etc., are not in Christ. Words like "individual," and "human being" do not even appear in scripture! These are 'created' terms by the natural man (1 Corinthians 2:14). These words describe the 'old man', but not the 'new man' in Christ (Colossians 3:9-10).

In Balantine’s Self Pronouncing Law Dictionary, 1948, page 389, Human Being is defined as "See Monster." On page 540 of this same Law Dictionary, Monster is defined as "a human being by birth, but in some part resembling a lower animal."

In Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, pages 879-880, a Monster is defined as "a person so cruel, wicked, depraved, etc., as to horrify others."

From the Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 2nd Edition, page 901, Human Being is defined as a "Natural man: unenlightened or unregenerate," and on page 1461, Unregenerate means "not regenerate; unrepentant; an unregenerate sinner; not convinced by or unconverted to a particular religion; wicked, sinful, dissolute."

In Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, page 657, Humanitarianism is defined as "the doctrine that humankind may become perfect without divine aid."

In Colliers New Dictionary of the English Language, 1928, Humanitarian is defined as "a philanthropist; an anti-Trinitarian who rejects the doctrine of Christ’s divinity; a perfectionist."

And in the Random House Webster's College Dictionary, 1990, page 653, Humanism is defined as "any system or mode of thought or action in which human interests, values and dignity predominate, especially an ethical theory that often rejects the importance of a belief in God."

Therefore, when anyone calls himself or herself a ‘human being’, or a 'humanitarian,' they are saying (according to every definition of these words, and according to the law), "I’m an animal; I’m a monster; I’m not saved; I’m unrepentant; I'm an unregenerate sinner; I'm not converted; I’m wicked, sinful, and dissolute; I’m cruel, depraved, unenlightened; and I reject Christ's divinity and the importance of a belief in God." Dear reader, do you still consider yourself a human being?

The spurious Septuagint uses the term "human beings" only one time, and its meaning is identical to the above definitions. Let's look at the last verse of the book of Jonah, where Nineva was full of men who were unrepentant, unregenerate, unconverted, wicked, sinful, dissolute, cruel, depraved, unenlightened, rejected the importance of a belief in God. Or, in other words, "human beings."

Jonah 4:11 (Septuagint), "and shall not I spare Nineve, the great city, in which dwell more than twelve myriads of human beings, who do not know their right hand or their left hand...?"

The "human beings" of Nineve did not know their right hand from their left because they did not know the Truth and were lost. They did not know God, they were separated from God. However, those human beings were willing to turn from their ways and learn the things of God, so He spared that city from destruction.

The term "human being" is also synonymous with the term 'natural man.'

"The natural man is a spiritual monster. His heart is where his feet should be, fixed upon the earth; his heels are lifted up against heaven, which his heart should be set on. His face is towards hell; his back towards heaven. He loves what he should hate, and hates what he should love; joys in what he ought to mourn for, and mourns for what he ought to rejoice in; glories in his shame, and is ashamed of his glory; abhors what he should desire, and desires what he should abhor." Thomas Boston, quoted in Augustus Toplady, Complete Works (1794, reprinted by Sprinkle Publications 1987), page 584.

And the word of God confirms:

1 Corinthians 2:14, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The above verse witnesses to us that the natural man is spiritually dead. The ‘natural man’ in Scripture is synonymous with the ‘natural person’ as defined in man’s laws.

"Natural Person means human being, and not an artificial or juristic person." Shawmut Bank, N.A. v. Valley Farms, 610 A. 2d. 652, 654; 222 Conn. 361.

"Natural Person: Any human being who as such is a legal entity as distinguished from an artificial person, like a corporation, which derives its status as a legal entity from being recognized so in law. Natural Child: The ordinary euphemism for ‘*******’ or illegitimate." Amon v. Moreschi, 296 N.Y. 395, 73 N.E.2d 716." Max Radin, Radin’s Law Dictionary (1955), p. 216.

Those that are spiritually dead belong to the prince of this world because he's dead himself. Satan has dominion over the natural man, for he is the prince of this world (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11); and, as a consequence of this, he has dominion over those of the world, i.e., human beings, the natural man – those who receive not the things of the Spirit of God and reject Christ. Because the bondman in Christ is sanctified from the world, he is separated from the adversary's dominion over him–sin (John 8:34). This is the cause for Christ having sanctified himself in the Truth of the word of God – to provide the entrance to the refuge in and through himself for us.

Now, the term man is found in scripture, but it has to be qualified. You are a bondman of Christ, but not a natural man (1 Corinthians 2:14). Also, you can find the term mankind in scripture, but it refers only to the flesh (human beings), and has nothing to do with God or his Spirit. Remember, all human beings are monsters (as verified in man's law).

In Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition, 1988, page 823, Mankind is defined as "all human beings; the human race."

Still wanna "submit to every human institution"? Buyer beware.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

1) In truth, this verse assumes Godly government, ala "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well." - KJV. Notice the qualification; the description of what constitutes Godly government = punishment of evildoers and praise of them that do well. Period. Does that describe the authority you are obeying today?

The verse does assume a certain level of godliness within the government. We know that we are not to follow any human law which would cause us to sin if we followed it. So you are correct in that regard.

However, "avoiding the appearance of all evil" entails obedience to every authority which does not entail sinning in the process.

So, if following the laws of your land means causing you to sin, then of course you should follow the law of God above the law of man.

But if the laws of your land do not require any sinful behavior, then it is your duty as a Christian, for the sake of the Lord, so that no one may speak badly of you, that you follow those laws.

Your interpretation, the idea that we should only follow a government when it punishes evil doers and praises those who does well, would make that verse utterly meaningless. there is no such thing as a human government which does those things.

I think in order to understand what The Holy Spirit is saying through Paul in that scripture is that governments are controlled by God, whether they are government by Hitler or government by the Church, and that 'all things work together for the good of those who love God". Remember, we are blessed when we are persecuted for righteousness sake.

For the sake of God, so that no one may have anything bad to say about us, we should be a perfect example of obedience and faithfulness in every aspect of our lives. That means obeying every human institution that our fellow humans have put over us, just so long as doing so does not cause us to sin.

of course, our first and foremost duty is loving God, trusting God, obeying God, and furthering God's kingdom through the preaching of the Gospel, but while we go about doing the Lord's business we are to obey every law which does not inhibit our doing of the Lord's business.

God bless....
Love
Taylor