Lawrenceb, before I continue I would like to tell you that i am not unsympathetic to you view. I also despise human government.
I do not “despise human government;” rather, my Father and I do not give life to it; we do not align ourselves with it. I also refer people to the book of Samuel in order to illustrate for them that all human government is a rejection of God. At heart, I am an anarchist and I think the world would be much better off if we had God as ruler without any intermediaries or human governments in between.
Well then, that is the choice that has been set before you -- before all .of us.
However, that does not mean that we can disobey government. and I will do my best to show you why.
One cannot “disobey” a government to which he has not pledged any allegiance! Are you not aware that you have indeed pledged your allegiance to the forum State, the “human institutions” (perhaps even recited Caesar’s popular “Pledge of Allegiance”)?
For one, when you say that we cannot serve two masters, that is a true statement, but it does not apply to this issue.you are presenting a false-dichotomy when you equate obeying God and government to serving two masters. There is no contradition between obeying God and obeying the government, for the same reason there is no contradiction between obeying God and obeying your parents. Of course we obey God; and we only serve Him. But part of serving God is obedience to authority. "Honor your father and mother".
Firstly, honoring your parents is not equivalent to obeying them, so that example is forfeit. It seems based on your thinking that we can not serve both God and our parents!
Your Godly parents are under God’s authority, and you under them -- all under the same authority! But clearly we are supposed to obey both!
Again, only one authority. We should not annul the commandment of God in order to appease our own sinful desires.
Ahhh, now here is where the majority have gone astray, believing gain is Godliness, etc., engaging in commercial activity, chasing mammon, striking hands with heathen, living as the world lives.
The scriptures are clear that we are to obey God and government.
No. Scripture is clear that we are to obey God’s government -- not “God and government. There is no such thing as “God and government.” However, there is “God and ungodly government.” The only time we are to disobey a governing authority is when the governing authority commands us to break one of God's laws.
Rather, “the only time we are to” obey “a governing authority is when” we have chosen to align ourselves with that authority. Then it’s “render to Caesar” time. Paying taxes is not breaking God's laws, acquiring legally required licenses is not breaking God's laws, driving the speed limit is not breaking God's laws, etc etc.
That is a grave error. And that opinion has already been answered in this thread previously, with scripture and other documentation (see posts #42 & 48). If you insist on posting opinions, then please address them with scripture.
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To give you an idea of how deep the enemy’s rabbit hole goes,
When you sign a license, you stand as
surety for the fictitious entity created by the state. Similar to how a man stands as surety for a corporation (meaning if the corporation does something wrong, the man will go to court and answer to the charges against the corporation). This is what you do when you stand as surety for that fictitious name on that license. But the scripture is clear that we are
not to stand as surety (Proverbs 6:1-2; 11:15), In 2 Kings 18:23,31, the people refused to stand as surety (pledges) for their king (government).
License: The lawful definition of a license is, "A permit to do that which, without the license, would be
illegal to do". In other words, the government makes something that was
lawful to do,
illegal. Then they tell you that if you pay the government
money (a bribe), then they will turn their backs and give you a
permit that allows you to break the law that they just said was
illegal to do!
All licenses issued by the government are ungodly. Here are a few examples:
Marriage license: Marriage was ordained by God (Genesis 2:23-24, Mark 10:6-9, 1 Corinthians 7, 1 Timothy 5:14, Hebrews 13:4). Speaking of marriage, Jesus himself said, "What therefore
God hath joined together, let not
man put asunder" (Mark 10:9). Yet, this is exactly what the men of government do today by saying
marriage is illegal; they put asunder the institution of marriage! Remember, if anyone does anything today without a
license from the government, it is an
illegal act; and there's a strong possibility of getting penalized, fined and imprisoned. Marriage is no exception. Marriage is illegal!
If it is God’s Will to bring two souls together in Holy Matrimony, what right does mere man have to say two souls cannot get married, until they ask the
government for
permission?! Until they pay the government their hard earned money to get a license to
exercise God’s Will? Does mere
man have authority, at law, to
interpose himself, or his purported law, between God’s Will, and to bring
punishment on a servant of Christ for
exercising God’s Law? Could it be
evil to execute the Law of God? Could it?
Preaching license: Jesus
commanded us to preach (Matthew 10:7, Mark 16:15, Luke 9:2,60, 1 Corinthians 1:17; 9:14,16, 2 Timothy 4:2). What right has man to say we
cannot preach anymore until we
bribe the
government with a
fee to get a
license to
do what God has already commanded us to do? According to the scripture, man is
forbidden to
charge a
fee to preach the gospel of Christ: "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ
without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel." (1 Corinthians 9:18).
Fishing license: God has already given us
permission to fish
freely (Genesis 1:26,28, Habakkuk 1:15, Matthew 17:27, John 21:10). What right has mere man to say it is now
illegal to do what God has already told us is
lawful to do? Who owns the fish and water anyway? (Exodus 19:5, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 44:24, 2 Corinthians 5:18).
The Lord has provided those fish for us. The natural man does not have dominion over those fish. The Lord uses him to make sure those things are not ravished, but if you're fishing for whatever you need at that time to eat, then there's no license that controls that; those are a gift from God. And if someone says to you that you must have a license to fish, you may reply, "My Father has provided these fish for me. And nowhere in his word does it say that I have to have a license to eat those fish. I'm not here for my wants. I am not abusing the fish, I am only going to take what I need."
Now, if you're fishing for commercial gain, then you're engaged in commerce and you've come under the commercial laws, because you're trying to profit off of God's creation. And the natural man will have jurisdiction over that because you're engaged in evil. We're not to profit off of his creation; we don't need to because he provides for our needs through our labors. When one goes to commercial activity and gain, they're actually trying to grasp more than what we really need, and that goes to the
wants.
If you have enough, then you're blessed. Why do you need to spend your life constantly trying to scrape up more? And when all of your needs are met, you have less than everyone else but that's actually a blessing because of the Peace in it. And that's the true Peace of the Lord, not the peace that the world thinks they know, because there's no peace in the world.
Pet license: God’s very first command to man was to take care of the creatures upon the earth (Genesis 1:26-28). What right has the government to say it is now
illegal to take care of God’s creatures? Who owns the animals? (Exodus 19:5, Psalm 24:1, Isaiah 44:24, 2 Cor.5:18). How can we register with Caesar (the State) those things (animals) that belong to God? (Mark 12:17).
Birth license: Also known as a birth certificate. Since it is almost impossible to get a license today without a birth certificate, and it is almost impossible to do anything today without a license, then one cannot interact in society without this
permission slip issued by Caesar. How ridiculous that anyone would ask for "proof" that you were born! That is basically what a birth certificate is. But is not the fact that you are breathing proof enough that you were born?
God says he knows us and sanctifies us
before we are formed in the belly and
before we are physically born (Jeremiah 1:4-5). So, according to God, we come into existence
before our physical birth. The government says we come into existence
after our physical birth, thus
denying the scriptures. To a bondservant of Christ, it is not the
first birth from corruptible seed that’s important (1 Peter 1:23), but our
second birth, when we’re "born again" (John 3:3,7), that’s important. The first birth is of the
world, the second birth is of
God (John 1:12-13). If we say we were "born"
after we came out of the womb, then we are
denying we were born of God. We are then of the world, and not of God.
Work license: God says, "...the labourer is worthy of his hire" (Luke 10:7) and "six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work" (Exodus 20:9), but man says the labourer is
not worthy to be hired, and shall work
zero days per week, especially if he
doesn’t have a number issued by the government. God says, "... The labourer is worthy of his reward.." (1 Timothy 5:18), but man says the labourer is only worthy of
half his reward, the other half must be withheld from his pay. God says, "...the workman is worthy of his meat." (Matthew 10:10), but man says the workman is only worthy of
half his meat, the other half must be withheld from his pay. But God
condemns the
withholding of
wages (Jeremiah 22:13, Malachi 3:5, James 5:4, Deuteronomy 24:14).
Drivers license: Liberty is given to us by
God (Galatians 5:1). Liberty is the freedom to go from one place to another without interference. Jesus Christ already set us at liberty (Luke 4:18, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 3:17), and there are already restrictions in the scripture for using our liberty (Galatians 5:13, 1 Peter 2:16).
As Paul says, "…why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?" (1 Corinthians 10:29-30).Why does government, "…spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into
bondage" (Galatians 2:4). "While they
promise them liberty, they themselves are the
servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in
bondage" (2 Peter 2:19).
We must follow all these laws because, first and foremost, there is no authority that God has not put in place. So obeying the earthly authorities is obeying God.
If there ever was a thesis statement that sums up the heresy of “Obey all things government because they’re all ordained of God,” that is it.
"So Pilate said to Him, "You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?" Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin." JOHN 19:11
Who was this man --> i.e. “
he who delivered Me to you” ??? And God ordained Jesus to his ordeal with Pilate, i.e. Jesus could do only the will of the Father i.e. it was not Jesus’ choice in the matter. Jesus simply told Pilate to get over himself; that, of Pilate’s own, Pilate is a zero.
Secondly, God has commanded us to obey earthly authorities.
"Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God." ROMANS 13:1
Again, this was covered here previously in reply #37
"And Jesus said to them, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were amazed at Him."
MARK 12:17
Again, the question is,
what is it that you are partaking of, of Caesar’s, that would require such a rendering to Caesar???
In
Mark 12:13-17, Jesus was asked if it was lawful to give taxes to Caesar or not. A silver coin, with Caesar's inscription on it, was shown to Christ. In this example, the Lord's answer requires everyone to make the determination as to what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God;
Mark 12:17"...Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's..."
Who did this silver coin belong to? Since the Scripture says, "The
silver is mine, and the
gold is mine, saith the
LORD of hosts" (
Haggai 2:8), that means that the silver coin shown to Jesus
belonged to God. However, those who live, move, and have their being in the image of Caesar, as the disciples of the Pharisees did, will believe this coin belongs to Caesar instead. We are not to be deluded by the image of Caesar, but built-up in the image of Jesus Christ (
1 Corinthians 11:7;
15:49,
2 Corinthians 3:18,
Colossians 3:10).
The way out of the commercial world is to shed all the things of the world. For example, Matthew was a '
tax collector' of receipts and customs. So he had a legal personality with the Roman Government. But when Christ said, "come follow me", Matthew just got up and walked right out. He left the Roman personality at the table, and became a new man in Christ Jesus.
Peter was a
fisherman, a commercial type probably because he had nets. He left all that behind and he became a fisher of men. He left behind that commercial fisherman, that legal personality, and walked out of the city and into the light of Jesus Christ. When you walk out of the city, the city is at your back and Christ is in front of you.
This is what Lot did when he left Sodom and Gomorrah, he didn't look back, he kept going. His wife looked back, "Oh, I love the things of the world. Lot, can't we go back? Please?!" And she did go back. She became a pillar of salt and became a commodity (salt was a commodity to pay salaries).
You leave or you die; also, it leaves you or you die. You can physically walk out, but you must spiritually walk out too. It takes both of them. His wife wasn't willing to spiritually walk out; she was of that city, but Lot was not.
That's how you get out of the house of bondage, out of Babylon, how you leave the *****. That's how you leave all that legal personality behind you. You don't need the ways of men. Revelation 18:4, "...Come out of her, my people." But the Churches teach that all this is future, so we don't have to worry about those things right now. All we have to do is sit down and wait for Christ. Most Churches will blame and point to the Catholic Church, while they have three fingers pointing at themselves.
In the 47th chapter of Isaiah, Israel and Jerusalem are described as the daughter of the Chaldeans. This is directly related to the fact that Chaldea was a nation that skillfully employed the techniques of merchants of debt to weaken a nation before it was conquered by the army. Thus, the Chaldeans would go into a country and offer loans at low interest with special conditions which virtually guaranteed that the debtor would never pay off the debt. As this practice spread throughout a nation, it so burdened the middle class that it ceased to exist and hence, the country was ripe for take-over. But, as shown in verse 15, when the conquest comes, even the merchants of debt will abandon the nation.
James 4:13-14, "Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."
For this reason, when we all stepped into commerce, we all compromised our traditionally vested rights. You only have two absolute 'unalienable rights':
Life and Liberty. Everything else is conditioned on your conduct and consent. Your life and liberty are vested by God in Genesis 2:7. Dominion over property is conditional, this being the lesson of Adam in the garden.
Unalienable: "Incapable of being transferred. Things which are
not in commerce as, public roads, are in their nature unalienable. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable."
Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1914), page 3350.
Unalienable: The state of a thing or right which cannot be sold. Things which are
not in commerce as, public roads, are in their nature unalienable. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable."
Bouvier's Law Dictionary (1959), Vol.2, p.610.
You don't have unalienable rights in commerce, because everything is negotiable. "Every man has his price" is the mantra. This is simply because neither you, nor your neighbor, have a right vested by God to lie, cheat, steal, or financially profit (Exodus 20:15-17). Traditionally vested rights which are retained by Christian men should never be compromised by entering into commerce. Labeling oneself a 'persona' is when you say you are an article in commerce. Take heed of God's warning:
2 Peter 2:3, "And through covetousness shall they with feigned
words make
merchandise of you."
Third, we are to set a good example for the unbelievers, so that they may have nothing bad to say about us, and the Lord may be glorified.
Again, you continue to repeat yourself without any “reasoning together” of the scriptures and documentation that has already been posted. You have not answered virtually any of the scriptural imperatives I have posted in this thread. This would lead me and, no doubt, some of the other readers here, to believe that you are not serious about wanting to walk in the truth, wanting to be set free. As per scripture, most do not believe they are in bondage. The power of the lie is strong.
"Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us." TITUS 2:6-8
"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority," 1 Peter 2:13
For example, you still have not answered my post about the truth of that unscriptural word “human” as found in the modern copyrighted for-profit versions of the Holy Bible.
Note: Let this be a warning for those who love the wiggle room afforded by the New Age bible versions. This alone should be proof enough,
prima facie evidence, that deception is afoot re: the modern copyrighted versions.
Now you may say, these verses only apply to a godly government. But what does scripture say?
"Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable." 1 PETER 2:17-18
Your error here is that you have not taken that verse in its context.
Here,
again, is that passage, in its context:
verses 13-19: Submit yourselves to every
ordinance of man [NOT “every human institution”] for the
Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto
them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As
free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God [not “human institutions”]. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the
froward [i.e. crooked; untoward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. etc. etc.
So now we see from scripture that it is very, very clear. We are not only commanded to obey Godly government, but also unreasonable, ungodly government as well.
You have assumed here, and it is the crux of the error. The definition of “froward” (or, in your modern copyrighted version, “unreasonable”), is NOT equivalent to “ungodly”!!! Please, a simple word study will reveal how scripture interprets scripture here.
So now I warn you, Lawrenceb, do no bring down judgement on yourself by disobeying the command of God.
"Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." ROMANS 13:2
Rather, you have been rebuked,
with Scripture.
Bottom line: “Human institutions” are not representatives of “the ordinance of God.”
And no, I am not perfect. Yet you are accountable to the Lord for all that you have read and posted here. My responsibility does not include “winning” any so-called debate with you; there are many others reading this. I don’t preach to the crowd, I preach to the cloud (of witnesses). Your beef is not with me but with the word of God. The scriptural imperatives and documentation have been posted. God is not mocked; you will be held accountable to
him (and not me) for any lack of due diligence.
And
this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
John 3:19-21
Pray that the Lord would grant you the wisdom and discernment you would seek, that the scales would drop from your eyes, and that you would be willing to do whatever he tells you to do, to walk in that truth.
Thanks for your responses in this thread. "Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend." (
Pro 27:17)
I believe the purposes of the OP have been served re: “Christians and the military” and all its ungodly Caesarian satellites.
