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Christians and the milita

Of course it wasnt because they kept the law, they didnt, they just preached that others should, and they were good at hiding thier own faults and seeming white as snow so as to feel more righteous in condemning others. The example in the woman "caught" in sexual immorality where to "keep" the law, means she should be stoned, but when Jesus said let those without sin to cast the first stone. When they all slunk away, Jesus told her that her accusers were gone and to go and sin no more. Officially Jesus should have cast the first stone as He was sinless, and stoning the woman WAS part of the law. But above the law of Moses, is the law of Mercy. The legalistic response should have been for Jesus to cast the first stone and the others follow. Yet He chose mercy. A true message there to all.
this is just my opinion - but i do not think that Jesus was ever obligated to follow the law of Moses. If He was obligated to follow the law of Moses, then He would have sinned by not stoning the woman. Besides, there was nothing in the law of Moses about those without sin being the first to cast stones. I would not take His actions there as some sort of precedent for all believers to follow. If the New Testament commands us to do something, we need to do it. We are not God, we do not get to make our own rules.
 
Well, I wasnt there or knew the culture that well to know if the accuser had to have a greater part of the deed, so perhaps Jesus by the law wasnt required to cast the first stone and yes, being sinless wasnt a requirement for casting the stones, the whole thing was setup by the legalistic religious leaders trying to trap Jesus and showing that He was unwilling to follow the law which they knew came from God.
 
@Travis I can absolutely see how it'd seem like I'm trying to shove what I think is right down throats. It's not my intention, but intent and action aren't the same. As for that "hard pressed to call yourself a man" bit, I think that's where we should really look at the intent behind "turning the other cheek," because any defense of our own honor and "manhood" sounds totally contradictory both at face value as well as any interpretation. One thing that does bother me, though, is the force Jesus himself used to drive the money changers out of the temple. The Scripture does not explicitly state he used violence against men, but does say he fashioned a scourge of small chords. It's entirely possible that he used the whip to make enough noise to scare the animals into being scattered, and John 2 does give us details about damage caused to property, but doesn't say he ever used the whip against a person. I need time to reflect on this.

As far as Christian police are concerned, I would again like to draw attention to the fact that such civil servants are sworn in, and Jesus is not the only one who encouraged us to make no such claims as to what the future may hold. Entering into such an oath is clearly disobedient, and implies that you are taking control of your own future. Anything that comes after seems moot.

Still, I'm really glad things feel less hostile between us, Travis. I would guess we have quite a bit in common, outside of the disagreement we're having here. If I sat on the jury of a man being tried with negligent manslaughter for sitting by idly while his family were raped and murdered, I would vote guilty, because it is not an issue of faith, but my role within the mortal, governmental court system (I'm not a lawyer, so I have no idea if there's any validity in what I just said, but it's a hypothetical situation blah blah blah). My issue is that most of my human sensibilities are offended by Jesus' teachings. My flesh hates every bit of it, so I can't rely on it to discern right from wrong. The only thing my heart tells me is that what I want is right.

@TaylorDonBarret By far, this sounds the most reasonable, and I can certainly agree that since this situation is hypothetical and we're not actually pressed with the choice at this moment, seeking clarity in Him through prayer is the most obvious answer. Your lack of a decisive answer is actually comforting to me... I wish more people could admit uncertainty, and that probably takes more strength than picking a side does.

@Brad Huber I admitted a tendency towards legalism not to justify it, but to confess my own fault. I know it's wrong, and the problem is that again, it's hard to see until after the mistake has been made. The distinction between "kill" and "murder" as a literal definition is obvious: murder carries the connotation of being both man against man as well as unjustified, whereas kill simply means to cause death or to end life. That being said, I want to clarify that it isn't the law for the law's sake that I wish to advocate, but the perfection of God's commands and the benefit of single-minded obedience, so I'll try to just give you an example with an easy to follow train of thought:

My KJV Bible says in Exodus 20:13: "Thou shalt not kill." Even before that commandment was given, we were instructed to eat fruit of seed-bearing herbs and from trees. Genesis 1:29. A diet of fruit and nuts (which are technically fruit, too) is found to be not only extremely healthy, but also mitigates a dramatic number of illnesses that plague humanity. Fruit is the ONLY source of food on the planet that doesn't require us to kill the food to eat it, and before the law was expanded (because humanity couldn't work with simple), we were already set to live in obedience of the specified law (that didn't even exist yet). The tree will keep on living, and it'll keep on making fruit no matter how much we eat. If we take "Thou shalt not kill" literally and to its most extreme, and practice that, we're actually blessed in our simplistic, maybe even child-like obedience.

When we eat tubers, like potatoes or carrots, what we eat is actually the equivalent of that vegetable's brain; we kill it, and we can eat it (If you search, you can find some very interesting scientific research that supposes even plants posses some form of both intelligence as well as emotion, though their neurology functions dramatically slower than any animal). There are generally little health risks associated with vegetables, and plenty of benefit, but it isn't the perfect food for humans the way fruit is, and some vegetables can carry surprisingly dangerous health risks (potatoes can cause bad cholesterol spikes, kale can ruin your body's thyroid, etc). Next in line comes meat taken from animals, even closer to us, but still not human. Many varieties of meat pose significantly more risk, generally parasites in animals that can kill us, and some were too dangerous for humans to consume safely until fairly recently in human history. Again, this requires the death of an animal (not expressly, mind you, but Levitical law demanded that meat from a living thing not be eaten).

The point I'm trying to make is that although sometimes subtle, the further we get from that child-like sense of simplicity and obedience to God, the less rewarding and beneficial our actions become. God's plans are too perfect for us to comprehend, but in every way I have searched, the more we obey without question, the more we are rewarded.

Granted, all of that is a far cry from testing a teacher to discern where his allegiance lies and if he possesses the faith to stand on sound doctrine, and that's where this entire debate began. Still, I'm not the same person who asked anymore, and once again I thank God for the growth he has stimulated in me through the research I had to do to sort out what I believe and the things you all have encouraged me to learn!
 
I think this is a very profound passage, for several reasons.

John 8:4; they *said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
John 8:5; "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
John 8:6; They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
John 8:7; But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
John 8:8; Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
John 8:9; When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
John 8:10; Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
John 8:11; She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."]

I've always wondered what Jesus wrote on the ground. I don't know for sure but I had a dream once. I'm not saying it was a revelation from God or a vision
or anything like that, but I dreamt that he wrote women's name in the sand. When the men standing Him saw the women's names, they thought to themselves...
"Oh yeah, I forgot about her. How did He know about her?" Then one by one they started walking away. I don't know if that was really the case, but it's an
interesting thought. Also I think the people couldn't see into someone's heart. But I'm pretty sure Jesus could. He knew if she truly had a repentant heart or not.
Also... as in some other passages, it shows that Jesus has the power to forgive sins. ( Matt 9:6; Mark 2:10; Luke 5:24; ) He said He didn't condemn her, but
he added the condition "sin no more".
 
@TaylorDonBarret I think one of the really great things about OT law was that it presented options, not just commands. The benefit of having theocratic leaders back then was that there were a variety of ways to handle the invariably corrupt nature of humans, and by exercising restraint, rather than just trying to blast guilty parties with the harshest and most severe punishments or consequences, a solution agreeable to both the guilty party and the victim could be found. This is one of the reasons Pharisees were so awful: rather than trying to glorify God with the power He had given them, they sought honor for themselves.

I mean, do you think parents WANTED to stone their sons and daughters to death for talking back to them every now and then? A young couple foolishly decide to sleep together before getting married, but they fess up to the rabbi. Does anyone need to die? They both chose this, why does blood need shedding? Let's just get them married now and move forward! The Pharisees have given the law a bad rap.
 
I personally don't think Jesus ever broke any commandments.

John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Heb 4:15; For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
 
As to never killing animals, since we have taken over as the big predator around, and killed of the bulk of our competition, if we were to stop killing, there would be massive animal deaths due to decease and starvation. Once we assumed the role of a predator and made our niche in the circle of life, we cannot just stop without introducing predators back into the environment that we eliminated them from.
 
@Brad Huber I honestly think there are enough unbelievers that every Christian could obey God without ruining the planet. I also believe suggesting that obedience could ever be bad for us calls God's will imperfect.
 
One the first commands God gave man was to subdue all the animals on the earth. ( Gen 1:28; )
Starting the Abel (the first sheep herder) .... and through to the time of Jesus when the disciples caught fish.
Jesus ate lamb and fish. Was he a bambi killer? Esau was a skillful hunter. Samson killed a lion, David killed a lion and a bear ( 1 Sam 17:34-36; )
 
@William Christopher
I would like to point out some truth regarding Peter in the garden the night Jesus was arrested. First, it was Jesus who told them to bring a couple swords. Jesus is for self defense. Remember, he's the one behind the command, "You shall not kill (or murder)," so defending one's life is Biblical and just. We also have a good example with Paul who was faced with death many times. He avoided the murderers by stealth when he could at Damascus. When he was arrested in Jerusalem after the mob tried to kill him, he learned of a plot to kill him and got that information to the Roman soldier who arrested him so that he would not be killed by these murderers lying in wait. Knowing that a trip back to Jerusalem might open the way for the same murderers, and that God wanted him to go to Rome in defense of the gospel, he appealed to Caesar. Before Caesar, Paul spoke boldly in defense of the gospel, but it ended up costing him his head. He was willing to die for Christ, but when he could avoid murderers, he did and defended himself, in one case, with the swords and spears of Roman guards.
 
Here’s a general definition of pacifism: the belief that violence of any kind is unjustifiable and that one should not participate in war.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Mat. 5:38-42

smite: to smite in the face with the palm of the hand, to box the ear.

Do we discern the difference between someone slapping us with an open hand on our right cheek, and someone punching us with a closed fist left hook to our head?

In the passage above, we have a description of one man who would INSULT another man by slapping him on the cheek. It's an attempt to incite, not inflict damage. The word says, don’t buy into that; don’t return his evil with evil. And don’t buy into Caesarian law suits; don’t refuse one who asks you to walk the distance with him; don’t refuse one who would borrow from you.

The cited verse has little to do with pacifism or self-defense. It has everything to do with overcoming evil with good.

When Hitler’s troops came to citizen’s houses in the middle of the night to haul them off to concentration camps, torture, and death, they did nothing illegal. Caesar’s law in place at that time allowed for that scenario (Caesar= ungodly authority). And Hitler didn’t seize power -- he was elected!

Similarly, fast forward to today, where the citizens of USA Inc. are experiencing the government’s heavily armed jack-booted thugs banging down their castle doors to haul them off to “indefinite detention” and worse.

What’s going on here? And how does it relate to the OP?

Many won’t like what they’re about to read, as it will threaten virtually all of what they currently hold dear in this world. And that is also an integral part of the problem.

The problem is one of authority.

...it seems an obvious contradiction to love our enemies from the business end of a rifle. I am a veteran, and while I am grateful for the lessons learned, I am dumbfounded at a total lack of willingness by the church to denounce the military, and am further confused by the existence of the seemingly oxymoron existence of "chaplains." Everything seems to support literal Christian soldiers as a violation of not only the letter of the law but also the spirit of love we are instructed to conduct ourselves with.
As a born again believer, this “obvious contradiction” you are experiencing is borne of your Godly spirit of discernment. You KNOW something is wrong here, but what?

The problem is one of authority.

...If someone could back up the Christian defense of a governmental military, I would greatly appreciate it.
First, we must ask: Of which “governmental military” are we speaking? No man can serve two masters.

The problem is one of authority.

... there's a big difference between avoiding anyone who is in the military and actively joining.
Indeed.

One of the most plain examples of the mindset of Jesus our Lord, in his temporal ministry, was his dealings with the Roman Centurion who besought him to heal his servant (Matthew 8:5-13).

First, this Centurion, this Roman Federal agent, was clearly a “believer,” even calling Jesus "Lord." It is clear from his response to Jesus that he possessed great faith in God. How did Jesus respond? Did Jesus and his disciples run him off, this representative of brutally oppressive Rome, angrily screaming, “You jack-booted imperialist Roman thug! You murderous, sword-happy butcher! Get out of my sight! How dare you ask me for anything!”

No, he commended him for his great faith. He held him up as an example against his own people. He didn't “pigeon-hole” him to dehumanize him. He healed his servant.

Then at another point, we read where the Pharisees tried to hobble and silence Jesus through coercion, intimidation, and fear of the governing authorities, that being Herod at the time. Jesus knew even the Federal law enforcement community couldn't do anything to oppose God's work and will in his life -- indeed, the same work in all our lives -- until it was thoroughly accomplished. So, Jesus was somewhat blunt in his response to this silly “threat,” as it wasn't really a threat at all, and continued to operate in spite of the Federal presence.

Let’s take a look at Paul’s situation.

Another powerful example of a servant of Christ dealing with an onerous law enforcement framework was Paul. Throughout the whole book of Acts and his ministry, Paul not only dealt effectively with the local and Federal law enforcement community, he thrived within it. Paul, at one time was a law enforcer, an officer representing a governing body, as we see recorded in the beginning of Acts 9 where he was given authority by the Jewish religious high command to bring any Christians he found, bound to Jerusalem (before the Lord “recruited” him on the road to Damascus). So it's true he might of had some pre-existing sympathy for the cops.

We read about one notable example of Paul in custody, the way he and Silas responded to it, and then the way Paul responded to the Phillipian jailer (Acts16: 25-30). If Paul had hated the cops, if he had an attitude of disrespect and contempt for them, he would surely have said nothing as this honorable jailer had committed suicide for his misguided belief he had let his prisoners escape. But Paul stopped him. Paul and Silas ended up witnessing to this, what would be a modern day “correctional officer,” and leading him and his house to the Lord. In Paul's mind, law enforcers were not enemies or people to be avoided and mistrusted, but people who he saw needed a real and dynamic relationship with the Lord, like everybody else.

Another example, in Acts 21, we see where Paul had found himself in the middle of a near riot situation as the Jews of the city were enraged at him. As they were in the process of pounding him into a bloody pulp, the local law enforcers strode in there, probably in full armor (riot gear) prepared for crowd control, and quite literally had to carry him out on their shoulders (Acts 21:33-35).

Was Paul glad to see the local cops? I'm sure he was! I'm sure he was quite gratified to see these law men muscling through the crowd, shouting commands and shoving people aside to get to him. I'm sure he realized after that, that the Lord had Providentially protected him through these law enforcers so that he could continue on with his ministry. It possibly could have been all over right there. But the Lord used the Feds to protect him.

Another example we see of Paul's attitude towards the Federal law enforcement community and, indeed, their established respect and trust of him, can be seen in the account of the shipwreck in Acts 27. Indeed, we read that the Centurion, Julius, in charge of the prisoners and before the departure, “... courteously entreated Paul, and gave him liberty to go unto his friends to refresh himself.” What a wonderful thing! How many Federal or Local cops would let a prisoner in custody do that?! The great trust between these people is undeniable.

As the journey by ship took place, we see that a great storm overtook them, yet with Paul's counsel, that encouragement being received from the “Angel of God,” they grounded the ship on the island of Melita. The soldiers in charge of the prisoners wanted to kill them, lest they escape, but the relationship Paul had established with the Centurion, the senior officer in charge, prevented that also.

When Paul finally made it to Rome, we see the Centurion “delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.” Protective custody. In the final chapter of Acts, we see that Paul's reputation, integrity, and his open relationship with the Roman Federal law enforcement community served him well, even for many years afterwards.

In light of clear scriptural precedent in dealing with the governing authorities, much of the material I read, and the attitudes I see on the part of people who claim to be Christians, is discouraging. Today’s trends are all transitory and fleeting temporal issues reflecting a fundamentally spiritual problem.

Christ spent his entire life in a region occupied by troops of a foreign conqueror. Hence, his message was delivered in an occupied country. Still, the gospel records indicate that he never gave the slightest support to any movement aimed at a military revolution that might bring national freedom.

Even as it was in Imperial Roman occupied Israel, so it is in America today. It's a matter of humility and repentance before God. A much quoted verse, to the point it has almost lost its meaning, says this,

2 Chronicles 7:14, "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Yet many fail to see who this is directed at. Not the unbelievers, not the Liberals, not the anarchists and anti-authority types, not the atheists. The Lord is saying, “My people.”

The American culture is obsessed with salvation by politics. We as a corporate body cannot comprehend any other way of changing the culture. They do not understand that God changes cultures by the preaching of the Word. Nineveh's culture was not changed by Jonah getting elected king or arguing that Nineveh stop socialism or stealing from her citizens. It was changed when God ordered him to preach.

William Penn said, “Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.” Franklin Sanders once said, “So what is the answer? The only answer to every need of sinful humanity: the Gospel. The hearts of America must be changed, and the nation brought to obedience to God. All other changes, including gun-toting militias, are merely cosmetic.”

God hates compromise and fear, as these are traits imputed to simple unbelief. He also hates insubordination and contempt of lawful authority by his people. Note well his rebuke of King Saul,

I Samuel 15:23, “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.”

Both Jesus and Paul recognized the primacy of the spiritual realm as the command sphere in their outreach to the world around them, the paramount fundamental purposes and work of the Father in their lives, and the rule of correction by the Sovereign Hand of God wrought through the oppressive Imperial Roman Army over their nation and stratum of influence. Yet, their relationship with the Local and Federal law enforcement community was not unfriendly nor antagonistic, but a mutually counterbalanced combination of Supremely ordained forces working to accomplish the Will of God in the world. As solid spiritual leaders, they operated in the midst, right out in front of God and everybody, in spite of the Roman Federal force.

Moreover, it is significant that although given the opportunity to do so, none of the New Testament saints -- nor even Jesus -- are ever seen informing a military convert that he needed to resign from his line of work (Matthew 8:5-13; Luke 3:14).

As I have laid out, the policy and precedent of Jesus and Paul concerning interaction with law enforcement, both Local and Federal, is pretty clear. The Lord used the Feds to Providentially protect his people, and his work, and saved Paul's' skin more than once. One day He may use them to save yours.

Primarily in the spiritual realm, a servant of Christ is a "type" of Police officer in the community, upholding God's Law which militates against the immorality and hedonism which can so easily overwhelm a society -- lawlessness and anarchy. Even as a Police officer upholds the "law of the land," a follower of Christ, if he is faithful to God and his Word, upholds and defends God's Law contained therein. To be the "standard" against lawlessness, to protect the weak, to uphold the law, to "resist evil." That's the job and calling that they have been tasked with as well as what society expects of them. Opposing evil, standing against lawlessness and anarchy, is the very core of their vocation. That's the duty of carrying that badge. Our calling is to stand in opposition to the forces of darkness as well. Therefore, followers of Christ can proudly say they are an "officer of The Law" as well

There are few civilians with the understanding, experience, and insight to possess the qualifications to understand fully, modern day Police work, let alone the unique dynamics and peculiar practices which entail the same. Most people, as civilians, view their local law enforcement officer with a bit of mystery and bewilderment, not having a clue as to what these people have to endure every day, the training they have to go through, the demands that are made on them through the whole chain of command.

Now concerning Jesus Christ's assembly, does "the world" understand his assembly and his ways? Is "the world" qualified to comment on spiritual things and the duties of Jesus Christ's assembly? Of course not. The Scripture clearly states: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Corinthians 2:14). Post modernist, humanist, and secular thinkers view most religion as "superstitious" and "regressive," even "stone-age."

The bottom line is, just as the only people qualified to police a modern day professional law enforcement agency are other professionals (their peers), so, too, the only people qualified to effectively police Jesus Christ's assembly are other spiritual leaders in Jesus Christ's assembly.

...doesn't defending yourself physically directly correlate to a lack of spiritual faith?
Self defense is biblical; it’s the born again believer’s positive DUTY. Another topic for another thread?

Matthew 5 says pretty clearly not only to love those enemies but to BLESS them, and RESIST NOT EVIL. That same sermon instructs us to swear no oath, and that instruction is repeated in James 5. Oaths are an integral part of military service, so that's at least two parts inherently disobedient. Even if you wanted to argue the nature of military service as noble, at the very least, service in the US military would be disobedient.
Yes, but again, why?...because it’s an issue of authority; no man can serve two masters. And many of us are beginning to feel that pinch bigtime.

...These are the kinds of contradictions that kept me intellectually soured against Christianity for 20 years, and you satirically make light of it with a poorly constructed ad absurdum argument.
Yes, of course. Evangelical Christianity is in freefall. There’s no getting around the fact that USA Inc.’s “citizens” are busily rendering to Caesar what is rightfully due Christ. [State-approved] churches today are ignorantly encouraging their congregations to "obey all things government."

The issue is one of authority; no man can serve two masters...

Romans 13:1-10 explains the government that applies to the bondmen of Christ. Our Father has ordained rulers, and those rulers have responsibilities before him. Unfortunately, many interpret this chapter to mean we are to obey all governments, no matter how ungodly they are. However, this cannot mean we are to roll over and submit to governing authorities, because if that's the case, Jesus himself violated Romans 13. They crucified him unlawfully, and there's a case where Christ did the will of the Father, and that brought him into conflict with the powers that be. Just because God ordains government for his purposes, it does not mean it is a godly government. He does use evil to draw people closer to him, and he also uses ungodly government as his rod of correction (just as all governments are).

Here’s a little food for thought:

Who wrote the book of Romans? Paul.
Where did Paul write Romans? In prison.
Where did Paul write most of his Epistles? In prison.
What is another name to describe the epistles of Paul? The "Prison Epistles".
Why are they known as the "Prison Epistles"? Because Paul was being repeatedly arrested and imprisoned by the "governing authorities."
Why was Paul being repeatedly arrested? Because he kept breaking the laws of the "governing authorities."
Who put Jesus to death? The government of Rome.
Who put Paul to death? The Emperor Nero at Rome in AD 67.
Who killed most of the apostles? The governing authorities.

Did Jesus and the apostles obey the "governing authorities" of their day? Obviously not.

If Paul, in Romans 13, was saying to "obey all governments" then Jesus, the apostles, and all the disciples were hypocrites, because they all lived their life by placing God’s Law above man-made laws!

Some people claim that the reason Paul was being repeatedly arrested and imprisoned by the "governing authorities" was because he would not confess that Caesar was his lord. This is not true, because one immediately received the death penalty for not doing so. Obviously, Paul was never directly asked to do so until they executed him in Rome in 67 A.D.

Some people claim that the reason our brother Paul was being repeatedly arrested and imprisoned by the "governing authorities" was because he was "preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ." This is not true. The Romans worshipped hundreds of different ‘gods'; they had a different god for every thing and every occasion. One more "god" would not have mattered to them.

Here is proof that the Romans did not imprison Paul for preaching about Jesus Christ. In Acts 18, the Jews brought Paul before the tribunal of the Roman Government of Achaia (a Greek province under Roman rule) on the charge of persuading men to worship Jesus (verse 13). The Roman court (Gallio) refused to judge religious matters (verse 15), and "drave them from the judgment seat" (verse 16). This scriptural passage is proof that Rome did not judge people for preaching another god. So why was Paul repeatedly imprisoned by the governing authorities? Paul was in prison for violating the Roman government's law (which are in opposition to God's Law), because Jesus commanded his followers to be separate from Caesar.

After all, if Paul was in jail because he was preaching about Christ Jesus, then the governing authorities would never have allowed Paul to write letters (epistles) concerning Jesus while in prison, and then allow him to take his writings about Jesus out of prison to publish and spread them throughout the then known world. This, again, evidences that they did not forbid preaching Jesus, and that Paul was in jail, not for preaching Christ's Kingdom, but for disobeying the governing authorities in other matters.

...the Luke 3 I read in no way condones Christian military service, and without that key component, this whole support of Christian service in the military falls apart.
Indeed. This is why, for example, today’s “military chaplain” is spiritually hogtied by the very authority to which he has voluntarily submitted.

...my choice to take KJV over other... versions... well, that's a completely different argument.
Not at all. Again, it’s the same issue of authority.

...the Holy Spirit should never, ever, ever be in contradiction with God's Word.
Indeed. And, as former military myself, I appreciate your intensity. We both have a deep seated unease with the hypocrisy.

As far as Christian police are concerned, I would again like to draw attention to the fact that such civil servants are sworn in, and Jesus is not the only one who encouraged us to make no such claims as to what the future may hold. Entering into such an oath is clearly disobedient, and implies that you are taking control of your own future. Anything that comes after seems moot.
Absolutely, as per “oaths” mentioned previously. And making claims against the future is presumptuous; scripture is clear that to deal presumptuously is to sin.

I honestly think there are enough unbelievers that every Christian could obey God without ruining the planet. I also believe suggesting that obedience could ever be bad for us calls God's will imperfect.
The problem is not with those who question authority. It’s with the Christians. We're all so "politically correct" that we can't divide the TRUTH from the LIES. And if, GOD FORBID, anyone be forthright, that behavior is deemed unacceptable and an offense to others' sensibilities.

Where is righteousness? Where is TRUTH? And who shall proclaim it, except those prophets who the religious kill?

And so we see a weak and ineffective church, like a reed blown in the wind. Ineffective, uninspired, and lukewarm.

But it’s never too late to do the right thing.

If one’s reaction to being told that there are faults in Caesar's statutes is to rush to defend them, it is because one cannot envision life without them. This is normal for someone who can only see one kingdom: the kingdom of this world. Yet this world is passing away, as are our own bodies. There is only one thing in life more certain than Caesar's taxes. So we are really here as a test of whether we can “see” and then choose those things that have eternal value. Are our energies devoted to laying up earthly treasures, or treasures in heaven? Are we slaves devoted to building the kingdom of this world, or are we seeking first the kingdom of God? We cannot even know where to begin unless we can see God's kingdom, which is the true meaning of being born again.

God in his sovereignty has provided the perfect means of testing whether we can make the distinction between the two kingdoms. Caesar has usurped God's authority, but his kingdom is built entirely with our consent and by using legal fictions. His authority over us is imaginary. We do not have to render ourselves to him unless we believe that we belong to him. Most people believe with all their heart that they do, for they cannot see the alternative. But if you know that you belong to God, along with your labor, your family, and everything else you have, then you will already have a deep-seated unease with the multitude of demands Caesar makes on you.

If this is the case, then make a list of those things that rightly belong to God but you have in ignorance given to Caesar. Then develop a plan of action for returning them to their rightful owner. This is not easy, but it is necessary. You will need to learn much more about God's Law so that you can discern what true obedience requires of you. If you trust the State to provide for your needs rather than trusting God, it should be clear which master you are serving. As no man can serve two masters, you have a choice to make. Scripture is clear that obedience to God comes at a price, and we must first count the cost. But once you can see the eternal kingdom, you will realize that any price is worth it.

The kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. (Mat. 13:44).
 
"As far as Christian police are concerned, I would again like to draw attention to the fact that such civil servants are sworn in, and Jesus is not the only one who encouraged us to make no such claims as to what the future may hold. Entering into such an oath is clearly disobedient, and implies that you are taking control of your own future. Anything that comes after seems moot."
@lawrenceb and @William Christopher
The oath Jesus is talking about it is in regards to men swearing by heaven or other such things that they are going to do this or that, seemingly to strengthen their word.
"Say just a simple ’Yes, I will’ or ’No, I won’t.’ Your word is enough. To strengthen your promise with a vow shows that something is wrong." Matt 5:37 (TLB)
This is not the same as when one swears an oath of allegiance as required by the laws of the state to be either in the military or an officer of the law. If the oath is not contradictory to your conscience and the word of God, but supporting things you firmly believe in, then you are not doing wrong to say you will uphold the laws of such and such as a police officer....so help you God. Wherein the trouble lies is when you are asked to disobey that oath you gave and not uphold the laws, but rather obey your superior officer who is thwarting the law, or you willfully thwart the law yourself for gain.
Also, in a court room you are asked to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Is this wrong to affirm that you will tell the truth to the judge and the jury? God said, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Ex 20:16 (NKJV)
As to the military in swearing allegiance to your country, your Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic with the help of God, is this evil? But if your country has become corrupt and you know that and you know they are going to ask you to disobey that Constitution, then you shouldn't be part of the military. If you were already a part and didn't possess the light or understanding at the time you signed up, or your countries leaders have forsaken the right way, you must be true to your conscience and God by disobeying the orders to do what you know is wrong, such as go to a war that is unjust and fight in the name of your country for what you know is wrong. Thus were many corrupted and harmed by going to war and obeying orders, realizing they were wrongfully killing people who were not truly direct enemies of the United States (or part of any offensive war, which is murder). To take up the cross, one must obey Jesus above all and if He shows you as a soldier that you ought not to be apart of such and such war, then you must obey Him and suffer the consequences.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Romans 13:1-5 (KJV)
Clearly Paul is telling us that their can be good governments wherein the officers of the law are "ministers of God to thee for good" and "a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." So being part of such a govt as an officer of the law is not an evil thing. It becomes sticky when the laws of the land become corrupt and the government is corrupted in their sin and police forces are run like Gestapo, trampling upon citizens rights and oppressing them. One ought not be part of such a force in such a town. But are we not to do what is just and right and help right the wrongs in our community and clean up such corruption, doing whatever we can do to stand for what is right? So it is over simplistic to reject men giving oaths of allegiance to good laws and government, as it does not coincide with other scripture. The oaths given in this country are not, "so help me Allah (Buddhah, or some other false god)," but refer to the Almighty God, the God of our forefathers. Do we not swear allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ and does he not say if we deny him he will deny us?
 
@lawrenceb
"When Hitler’s troops came to citizen’s houses in the middle of the night to haul them off to concentration camps, torture, and death, they did nothing illegal." There is a big difference between what is "illegal" and what is morally just and right. To imply they did what is right or lawful you are wrong. The Lord does not support evil actions by governments whether they are elected by the people or not. God does not contradict his Word, nor support unrighteousness in any way. To submit to evil government, obeying it as if it was "good" government is to submit to evil and support evil. We are commanded "to do justly." When Jews finally realized what was happening and resisted arrest, even fighting back, they did what was just. But Hitler and his minions used deceit to relocate these people and things were not done in the light or lawfully by any means. Justice is not dependent upon the governments edict, but God's word. "Thy word is truth." When the city of New York tells people they cannot have guns, they are doing what is unjust, trying to keep people from defending themselves and their loved ones. Am I exonerated from defending my life simply because a government says so? When Caesar's command to worship him to show your loyalty was disobeyed, was he just to execute those people who disobeyed? Of course not.
Elected officials have a duty before God to "submit to the Son" and to do justice. If they do evil instead and thwart the good laws of the land and make evil laws or go along with evil laws, such as abortion laws allowing babies to be slaughtered, they will stand condemned on the day of judgment, for not standing against evil, even when it requires them to disobey the supposed law of the land. Thus should every abortion clinic be shut down in every state by the elected officials of that state, contrary to the wicked decision of the Supreme Court. Thus should teachers pray and read the Bible with their children contrary to SCOTUS to obey God rather than men.
 
It is where we are at the moment in our Lord and what our situation of the moment is that decides what is or is not to be done. God has never changed but men have and need to if they are to please God. Before that first act of disobedience it would seem that men were not meat eaters, nor were they killers of men, but it wasn't long in scripture before the situation changed drastically for the worse. What is 'good' for one moment to one person may be 'evil' for another, and vice versa.

Looking for black and white answers that always apply, or are to be applied, is not a workable solution. I and you need God's answer for the here and now for me or you(found by following the lead of the Holy Spirit), rather than for any man in some hypothetical situation.

Someone mentioned the woman taken in adultery. The law given to Moses prescribed death for her, but Jesus recognized that God's answer for that moment was not to be found in her death. Similarly King David's adultery according to the written law would have been death, but the prophet had a more merciful answer from God.

Should a person ever be soldier? Should a person ever physically take the life of another? Go to the OT and see what the law to Moses prescribed. That law had a purpose but it certainly did not bring everyone to God, did it? Remember that in spite of being under that law of 600,000 adult men only two were allowed to enter into the Promised Land. Black and white inflexible rules were not the answer then and they are not the answer now. God has not changed. Have we?

When I was a soldier (Viet Nam vet), it was to many people an evil thing, but to me it was not because of where I was in my heart. I have been changed since then. Haven't all of us been changed since we first believed? As we have grown in God, hasn't God increased what He has required more of us?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
 
It is where we are at the moment in our Lord and what our situation of the moment is that decides what is or is not to be done. God has never changed but men have and need to if they are to please God. Before that first act of disobedience it would seem that men were not meat eaters, nor were they killers of men, but it wasn't long in scripture before the situation changed drastically for the worse. What is 'good' for one moment to one person may be 'evil' for another, and vice versa.

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
@amadeus2
Does God's truth change? Does God change? He says, "I am the Lord, I change not." Jesus tells us heaven and earth will pass away but his words remain forever. So do the principles of right and wrong vary according to our personalities? They do not. Even in the scripture you quote, the person who did not have as much light as another was still "beaten with few stripes." The punishment may vary, but that act of doing wrong is still punished. Wrong is still wrong, right is still right.
In the case of say, the Iraq War. Was the war just or unjust according to the views of the soldiers who fought or was it just or unjust according to the reasons for going to war?
If a man kills others in an unjust war, is his act of murder justified because of his lack of knowledge? The person killed on the other side is still dead. Had our nation not gone to war, that man and thousands of other men, women, and children would still be alive. Will people involved and supporting the unjust war be held accountable? Yes. Does God require that soldier who killed to repent of his wrongdoing? Yes, he does.
 
The oath Jesus is talking about it is in regards to men swearing by heaven or other such things that they are going to do this or that, seemingly to strengthen their word.
"Say just a simple ’Yes, I will’ or ’No, I won’t.’ Your word is enough. To strengthen your promise with a vow shows that something is wrong." Matt 5:37 (TLB)
Absolutely correct.

This is not the same as when one swears an oath of allegiance as required by the laws of the state to be either in the military or an officer of the law. If the oath is not contradictory to your conscience and the word of God, but supporting things you firmly believe in, then you are not doing wrong to say you will uphold the laws of such and such as a police officer....so help you God.

However, here is where the problem lies. Notice the conditional statement being brought to bear here, the “if” clause i.e. “...if the oath is not contradictory to your conscience and the word of God...”

One’s conscience is, by definition, in the pit, because the heart of man is deceitfully wicked; who can know it? Conscience is, by definition, a completely arbitrary attribute of the natural man.

Thus, to say that “you are not doing wrong to say you will uphold the laws of such and such as a police officer....so help you God”, is double mindedness borne of trying to serve two masters.

So we’re back to the question of authority. To what authority do you look to, to do the things you would do? Because it is that authority to which you will indeed render (always remembering that no man can serve two masters). IOW, the separation of church and state is a lie.

Also, in a court room you are asked to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. Is this wrong to affirm that you will tell the truth to the judge and the jury? God said, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Ex 20:16 (NKJV)
Imagine for a second, the believer voluntarily appearing before unbelievers for judgment! Yet such tragedy routinely occurs every day. It’s rather, “when they bring you before the magistrates.”

By voluntarily appearing before unbelievers for judgment, you forfeit any protection you might have otherwise had via the King himself. In fact, we’re told by the King to not worry about what to say when dragged before Caesar, as he will give us those words at the appropriate time.

I’ll give you a little taste of the mess, the deception, we’ve voluntarily allowed ourselves to become entangled in.

Names, in general, are given by those in authority to those in subjection to that authority, to mark and note them.

God calls his servants by name (Isaiah 43:1; 45:3; John 10:3, Revelation 2:17). Everyone’s name is sacred, it demands respect as a sign of the dignity of the one who bears it. Now, here’s a question for you, dear reader. Have you ever, in your entire life, "signed" your name in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS? Of course not! Haven’t you always used both upper and lower case letters to sign your name? Yes. And why is that? Because that is what you have been taught since a child. Because the standard Rule of Law governing the use of English Grammar states that the correct Capitalization of Proper Names must begin with a capital letter, and the rest of the name must be spelled in smaller case letters. At Law, this lets others know you are an entity created by God, and not an entity created by man.

Now, there are entities created by man. Corporations for example. Corporations are known as "persons" (i.e. persona, status, in Caesar's world) created by the government. They are created on a piece of paper and brought into existence by the government. To differentiate between those created by God and those created by the government, those created by the government have their names spelled in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS. This lets others know that this entity does not have a body, soul, and spirit like man has, but that this is a fictitious entity created for the purpose of making a profit. This is commonly known as a legal fiction. The names of ALL corporations, when registered officially with the forum State, are required to be listed in ALL CAPS.

Now, if you look, for example, at a license or credit card or any other commercial instrument in your wallet now, you will notice the name that appears on it is spelled in all capital letters! What this means, at law, is that the entity that is named on this license is a creature of the government, and not a creature of God. It means that entity is a servant of Caesar, and not a servant of God. In order to get a license, one must substitute one’s lawfully spelled name for a fictitiously spelled name; you must deny the name given to you by God, and accept a name given to you by Caesar in its place. Since your name is not spelled in all capital letters, the name that appears on a license is not yours! That strawman is not who you are. And you must lie and say that this name is yours to get a license.

James 2:6-7, "…Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?"

We've been warned, from the time of the Jews who, seeking to kill Jesus, pursued him using a tactic that involved taking hold of his words (the body snatching would follow as the intended consequence)...

And [the Jews] watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words so that they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor...And they could not take hold of his words before the people... (Luke 20:20, 26).

...to today when greedy men use legal fictions to monetize us...

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you (2 Peter 2:3).

...to the end times merchants, who have been freely buying and selling the souls of men...

...the merchants of the earth...mourn over [Babylon]; for no man buyeth their merchandise anymore: the...souls of men. (Rev. 18:11, 13).]

Today's courts cannot deal with real people because, being bound by International Law and the Law of War, such courts can only deal with fictitious persons. Thus, all parties agree to be named with a fictitious name spelled in all capital letters, and/or with a middle initial, i.e., a nom de guerre (war name). But it's only because they are, as Oxford puts it, "engaged in some action or enterprise" ("action" has to do with war, and "enterprise" is strictly a commercial term). So to really join you to their courts, you have to be engaged in the same thing that they're engaged in, which is war or commerce (both of which has to do with plunder).

For example, all IRS forms and letters to taxpayers use a nom de guerre by the initial in the name, and regularly violate the rules of English. They request only a middle initial, not a full name, be used on all their forms (see the instructions to any IRS form).

And what is the purpose of them doing this? Any law dictionary will confirm that the purpose of these fictions is to give the court jurisdiction! But we must remember that when one is not engaged in carnal warfare (action) and not engaged in commerce (enterprise), the fictions that a court or government may attempt to attach to you will not "stick." When one walks according to the Spirit, in full faith, a line is drawn in the sand; the world and its things cannot and will not attach, by the Grace of God.

Fictio: "In Roman law, a fiction; an assumption or supposition of the law. Such was properly a term of pleading, and signified a false averment on the part of the plaintiff which the defendant was not allowed to traverse [challenge]…The object of the fiction was to give the court jurisdiction." Black's Law Dictionary, 6th edition, page 623.

Fiction: "Founded on a fiction; having the character of a fiction; pretended; counterfeit. Feigned, imaginary, not real, false, not genuine, nonexistent. Arbitrarily invented and set up, to accomplish an ulterior object [i.e., to trick the unsuspecting into submitting themselves to an unlawful court]." Black's Law Dictionary, 6th edition, page 624.

James 2:6-7, "…Do not rich men [merchants] oppress you, and draw you [with contracts] before the judgment seats [courts]? Do not they blaspheme [deny, mis-spell] that worthy name [Godly name] by the which ye are called?"

Matthew 7:6, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

When you give that which is holy (your Godly name) to the dogs (Caesar), and cast your pearls before swine, it will be converted into something dead of the State's creation (a misnomer, a fiction) which will give standing in its courts, because the law that the State declares is the one written in its books. Caesar gives you a name in all capital letters, which marks you like an animal. Caesar is now re-defining you in terms of 'the person' described in its codes, rules, and regulations. The other indicia are a birth date, address, social security number, etc. This is how the State courts acquire jurisdiction over you. Now it can proceed to tame you.

This "mask" itself is the thing that's defined in man's codes, rules, and regulations (i.e., person, human being, individual, business, corporation, partnership, organization, etc.). These terms are all a persona, which means "the mask of the actor" (i.e., a fictional character that substitutes for the flesh and blood man). From this word persona we get 'person,' a fictional entity created by the government. This is a necessary use of the word because Martial Law powers can only deal with fictions (i.e., persons). You're the actor when you become one of those things. You become something other than who God says you are.

Hosea 4:6, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:"

The Christ is, in deed, seen in you and does not identify with (confirm) that character on the paper offered before the court. The surety for the fictitious person is not found; and a warrant is issued under their "testament" for the pagan, citizen, patriot, infidel, natural person, human being, or other private person having that lawless character who will ignorantly stand as surety for that fiction. The fiction has no economic value without the ignorance of the followers of Christ. Please remember that fictions are not the Way, Truth, and the Life for the minister of Christ, and it is no sin to stand mute when questioned on whether you are surety for their kingdom (Matthew 27:12-14, Mark 15:3-5). Silence cannot be misquoted. However, you are mandated to confess Christ to avoid the malicious plans of men.

Always remember, Confess Christ to Avoid and Justify so you may be Excused. The technique is to confess the Law of Christ to justify your lawful act(s) and to avoid the consequences of their purported law.

As to the military in swearing allegiance to your country, your Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic with the help of God, is this evil?
The word “God” does not even appear in “the Constitution,” the State’s humanistic contract.

The founders of America (the Puritans) intended to establish a new world. They intended to create a "city on a hill," a society governed by God’s Law, giving glory to God, and spreading the gospel across the globe. The original intent of the settlers and founders of the New World was to form a Godly nation. In order to make sure that the Government would foster Christ’s teachings and not atheism, it was prohibited for any but the followers of Christ to hold political office. (If you want to create a Godly society, such a requirement only makes sense).

However...

The Founders thought more of the idea of a secular state than how to please God. The first criteria for a Christian civil government is a recognition of God as sovereign. Not only is Christ not recognized in the Constitution, there is no hint of God at all. The sovereign recognized in the Constitution is not God, it is the people, ala "We the people..." The Constitution is a covenant but not with God.

The Founding Fathers apostatized from the Godly civil covenants of their and our forefathers. When they rejected God, they also rejected God's law. People can talk all they want to about a Christian Constitution, but they will never be able to get around the fact that God is not even mentioned in it. True, they set up a Constitutional set of laws, but what if someone decides that they no longer reflect the law of the people? What is left is no law at all but for those with power to enforce what they consider the will of the people.

To deny God as sovereign leaves man in charge, but which man? Who represents the people? Who will declare the law? That is the struggle of our nation and has resulted in millions of deaths (abortion) and economic confiscation and control on a rate that would have made ancient dictatorships look like tax havens. The Constitution was a rejection of the rule of God for the rule of man.

Scripture tells us to test people, to see if they are of God or not.

1 John 4:1, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

This only makes sense, when one is sincerely interested in associating with godly people, while avoiding the contamination and influence of ungodly men.

The key, however, to the rejection of the rule of God was Article VI, Clause 3, "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several state Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

The Constitution was a rebellion against Christ and his authority over the nation, replacing it with the rule of man. The Bible warns us, "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?" (Isaiah 2:22).

The sole purpose of constitutions is to free human beings from God's Law in order to chain them to the morality of the State dictated in its codes, rules, regulations, ordinances, statutes, public policies, executive orders, laws, etc. All constitutions were created by the fallen reason of the natural man, and are molded by the "reasonable interpretation" of human beings wearing black robes. Private rights are always weighed against the greater public good and are regulated by the "police power".

Those who thus rely upon the words of any constitution for support are leaning upon a broken reed; and their sense of security is a false one. The Constitution does not protect persons or property against unjust invasion, or prevent government control and regulation of business. After all, this depends on the interpretations and applications of the courts. Constitutional law is the morality of fascism and comes from the vain imaginations of men. It is a code, rule, or regulation for the dead thing it brings into being. Corporations are dead, at law. The United States is a Federal corporation. Thus, the United States is a dead thing.

“We are under a Constitution, but the Constitution is what the judges say it is.” Charles Evans Hughes, Supreme Court Justice, in Dictionary of American Maxims (1955), p. 88.

We don't find Christ there, it's men ruling other men, giving benefits to one another. And when the natural man gives a benefit to you, there's a duty attached to it. There's no “freely” giving (Matthew 10:8) and expecting nothing in return, as scripture tells us. We are not to touch the unclean thing (2 Corinthians 6:17), and the US Constitution is an unclean thing, based upon selfishness and commerce.

The U.S. Constitution is just a piece of paper with signatures on it. And you know what a piece of paper with signatures is: a contract -- something that can be re-negotiated and altered at any time.

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." Romans 13:1-5 (KJV)
In Romans 13, does verse 1 say, "let every soul be subject unto all governments"? Or does it say, "let every soul (including governing authorities such as kings, judges, police, etc.) be subject unto the Higher Power"? Who do souls belong to? God says:

Ezekiel 18:4, "Behold, all souls are mine."

And the second part of verse 1 tells us Who the Higher Power is: "...For there is no power but of God."

The souls of the governmental powers belong to God, and they are not the higher powers, the higher powers are held by Christ himself (Matthew 28:18). Is our Lord not the higher power, then, if all power has been committed unto him (John 17:2)? Christ is the governor among the nations (Psalms 22:28). All power over earthly kings has been given unto Him (Romans 14:9). All judgment has been given unto Him (John 5:22,27). Notice the separation of Power in Romans 13:1. All power comes from, and belongs to, God (Psalm 62:11) and not the one exercising it. And remember that most men, especially those constituting the "governing authorities," usually deny that power given to Jesus (2 Timothy 3:5).

Many would say, “I was taught you have to follow the laws of man unless they interfere with Gods laws.” There is no such requirement or teaching found in the word of God. In fact, Scripture is replete with warnings to trust no man. Indeed, we should not trust any man including ourselves. The Holy Bible says,

"Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom" (Micah 7:5).

It also says "Take ye heed every one of his neighbour, and trust ye not in any brother: for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbour will walk with slanders" (Jeremiah 9:4),

"He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered" (Proverbs 28:26),

"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead" (2 Corinthians 1:9),

"Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's" (2 Corinthians 10:7),

"Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD" (Jeremiah 17:5), and finally,

"Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit." (Jeremiah 7:8)

When scripture speaks of obeying and submitting ourselves to those who have the rule over us, God’s word is not talking about heathen governments, but those "rulers" within Jesus Christ's assembly. Notice carefully this verse says these rulers "watch for your souls." Governments of men cannot govern or watch for anyone's souls, for they can only govern outward acts, not the inward being. But true spiritual leaders do watch for our souls

Those who "have the rule over you" at Hebrews 13:17 is specifically defined a few verses earlier in Hebrews 13:7, "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."

As we can see, scripture itself defines these "rulers" as those who speak the word of God and have faith. Secular governments avoid, and often forbid, speaking the word of God within their system through outlawing prayer in their schools and replacing it with such unrighteousness as "the theory of evolution," and by taking down the "Ten Commandments" from their courtrooms. These are not the rulers we are to submit to.

"When Hitler’s troops came to citizen’s houses in the middle of the night to haul them off to concentration camps, torture, and death, they did nothing illegal." There is a big difference between what is "illegal" and what is morally just and right. To imply they did what is right or lawful you are wrong.
I did not imply such. What they did was legal, not Lawful. Do you understand the difference? And God’s Lawfulness has no connection with man's subjective legalise and “morals.”

To illustrate, here’s a hypothetical situation:

I have two friends. Last year, we did the democratic thing (e. g. we voted) and formed a group called "Murder Weekly." The purpose of Murder Weekly is to materially enrich ourselves. The method we have unanimously decided (i. e. voted) to utilize to accomplish that purpose is as follows. Once per week, on a rotating basis, one of our members goes out and murders someone who is not a member of our group. The spoils are brought back to the group and distributed evenly among the three of us.

I have recently decided that I no longer want to fulfill my portion of the obligation i. e. I no longer want to murder someone every third week. However, I now have a problem because our rules require that if one of our members refuses to perform his obligation, then the remaining group members are to murder that non-conforming member and divide his spoils among them.

The hypothetical situation above essentially describes the very system that governs USA today. It is a humanistic system devoid of God, civil idolatry, worship of the State.

If Murder Weekly says to kill sodomites, then all members of Murder Weekly are jointly legally obligated to carry out that command.' Whether it's “morally right” or wrong is not your concern. Again, the relevant question to be dealt with is, "Are you a member of Murder Weekly"? Because if you are, then you WILL be required, be forced, to render unto Caesar what is due Caesar... There is literally no limit to the requirements that such a Godless government can (and eventually will) impose upon its "citizens."

I do not serve that authority. I do not give allegiance to it. I do not strike hands with heathen. I owe Caesar nothing because I take no thing from Caesar. I have nothing that belongs to Caesar (this includes the legal fiction ALL CAPS name).

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
 
One’s conscience is, by definition, in the pit, because the heart of man is deceitfully wicked; who can know it? Conscience is, by definition, a completely arbitrary attribute of the natural man.
lawrenceb, Paul talks about man's conscience many times in the Scriptures. The conscience is NOT an attribute of the natural man, but something given by God to each man. It is a good thing and something that can be corrupted and seared should we continue in sin. The conscience is referred to 66 times in the New Testament. It was the conscience (convicted by the Holy Ghost) of the men who brought the adulteress to Jesus that caused them to lay down their stones and walk away.
Paul says, "my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost" Romans 9:1 (KJV)
So you are incorrect in your explanation of the conscience. I suggest you do a word study on conscience and find all the references noted in the Bible. When a man is born again, washing in the blood of the lamb, he is a new creation, "old things are passed away and behold, all things are made new, and all things are of God." This includes the conscience, but the Lord shows through the new testament that it is God who gave men a conscience and both unsaved and saved possess one.
 
lawrenceb, Paul talks about man's conscience many times in the Scriptures. The conscience is NOT an attribute of the natural man, but something given by God to each man. It is a good thing and something that can be corrupted and seared should we continue in sin. The conscience is referred to 66 times in the New Testament. It was the conscience (convicted by the Holy Ghost) of the men who brought the adulteress to Jesus that caused them to lay down their stones and walk away.
Paul says, "my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost" Romans 9:1 (KJV)
So you are incorrect in your explanation of the conscience. I suggest you do a word study on conscience and find all the references noted in the Bible. When a man is born again, washing in the blood of the lamb, he is a new creation, "old things are passed away and behold, all things are made new, and all things are of God." This includes the conscience, but the Lord shows through the new testament that it is God who gave men a conscience and both unsaved and saved possess one.
Look back on the context in which the word "conscience" was used. No qualifier was offered, and It was lumped in with morals. The implication was clear that "conscience," in the context it was offered ('If it feels good, it must be right.'), is totally subjective and thus is of the flesh.

This includes the conscience, but the Lord shows through the new testament that it is God who gave men a conscience and both unsaved and saved possess one.
I am fully aware of every use of the word "conscience" in the AV. Again, it is clear from the context, which of the two (the conscience of the saved, or of the unsaved) was being illustrated. I simply responded in like kind.

There is a way that to a man seems right, but the end of that is death.

Let's focus not on tangential issues, but on the OP's implied issue of authority.
 
[QUOTE="lawrenceb, post: 253698, member: 23717"
I do not serve that authority. I do not give allegiance to it. I do not strike hands with heathen. I owe Caesar nothing because I take no thing from Caesar. I have nothing that belongs to Caesar (this includes the legal fiction ALL CAPS name).

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.[/QUOTE]

And yet, Jesus commands us to
"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." Matt 22:21 (KJV) So Jesus did not disobey all govt because they were corrupt in some ways.
The apostles also tells us to obey lawful magistrates, etc. So when you say you are serving the Lord, it is not the Lord of the Bible I am reading. You misinterpret the scripture, not rightly dividing the word.
It is true that we are to obey God rather than men, but many times, as the scripture teach, government is NOT contrary to God in many of their laws, but in accord with God and in those things we can obey.
Do you drive a car or truck? Do you have a license to drive it in your state? Or is there something evil about requiring a license of every driver and knowing the rules of the road?
Note the example of Daniel and his three friends (captives) who lived in a heathen nation. They did not have a problem with just laws, but the unjust and evil laws. When Nebuchadnezzar commanded men to bow down to his idol, they would not. Neither did they eat the meat (most likely sacrificed to false gods) provided to them, but found a way to avoid it. Daniel continued to obey God within those evil realms and was thrown to the lions for disobedience to an unjust and evil law. But he was a chief counselor to one king and a president under another, yet God mightily was with him and he affected the entire world because of his stand and the mighty things God had him do within those corrupt nations.
Paul used his place as being born a Roman citizen several times during his ministry as an apostle. He used the law to appeal to Caesar. Jesus and his disciples were under the rule of Rome, but still lived within the confines of just laws. Yet they we free as the servants of Christ to obey God in the face of laws that forbid them to not obey the Lord, willing to suffer the consequences.
 
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