Circmscision vs. Baptism

[RJ]

The Jews of old insisted that one must be circumsized for salvation much like some modern day Christians call for Water Baptism.
Romans 4: 9-11 9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised?We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

The Jews put their trust in the outward sign of circumcision, ignoring Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness,some 14 or 15 years before he was circumsised. Circumscision was merely a sign, to Abraham and to the world, that Abraham had been set apart for God.
Today baptism serves a similar function to that of circumscision served in Abraham's day. Baptism is a sign that those baptised belong to Christ, not the world. As with first-century Jews and circumscision, people sometimes place too much trust in Baptism. Some people think baptism will get you into heaven, but it is not true; no more than ccumscision did in the Old Testament. Faith is the only thing that can do that. Baptism is only a sign and apart from faith it means nothing.
God of All
Romans 4:11b -12
that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

 

[B-A-C]

I don't know that baptism is required for salvation, but it's something Jesus did and taught, also his disciples baptized people.
It seems it is something we should do.

(Jesus was baptized)
Matt 3:13; Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
Matt 3:14; But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
Matt 3:16; After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,

Mark 1:9; In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mark 1:10; Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;

Luke 3:21; Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22; and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Acts 2:38; Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12; But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Acts 8:13; Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

By far most the scriptures about water baptism are in Acts after Jesus ascended back into heaven.

(the Ethiopian Eunuch was a Gentile)
Acts 8:35; Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
Acts 8:36; As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Acts 8:37; [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Acts 8:38; And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:39; When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

(Cornelius and his soldiers were Gentiles)
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts 10:48; And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

(Paul was baptized)
Acts 9:17; So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 9:18; And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;

(The jailer for Paul and Silas was baptized)
Acts 16:30; and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31; They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:32; And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Acts 16:33; And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

Acts 22:16; 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

(Paul baptized some people)
1 Cor 1:16; Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

1 Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 3:22; After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.
John 3:23; John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized--

It seems Jesus's disciple actually baptized more people than John the Baptist.
John 4:1; Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
John 4:2; (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There are some who say being born of water simply means a natural childbirth, this is unlikely because all men are born this way.
Only certain men are born of water and the Spirit.

Why would anyone not want to be baptized? Even if your salvation does not depend on it.

 

[Br. Bear]

I have slightly altered this post in order to help it be clearer. My original post can be seen below in B-A-C's quote and reply

Greetings,
circumcision was an outward mark of those set apart, hence circumcised. Under the Law and without yet the Promise prophesied being come (that spoken of as Who and What the LORD would send, being Jesus the Christ and His Spirit), such a mark or seal was appropriate, the Law being also written on stone, Israel being under the protective shield of the schoolmaster, hemmed in and surrounded on every side, set apart not by the fleshy circumcision but by the LORD through the Law. (see Galatians 3:22-29)
In like manner, Baptism is a seal BUT it is the circumcision of the heart which is the requirement of the Baptism being of any effect.
John preached Repentance and baptized all in the River Jordan. Herein lies the key, repentance... BUT...
repentance is not something good for today, good in order to be baptized. No, it is a complete and definite turning away, setting apart the world from and turning instead to the Lord Jesus Christ that we may have access to the Father, of Whom Abraham is counted righteous. (see Matthew 4:19 and Mark 2:14 Matthew 8:22 ; Matthew 16:24-26 ; Luke 18:18-30 ; John 21:19 ; Acts 17:30 ; Acts 19:4-5 ; Acts 26:20 )
Baptism is needful as a sign, as a mark, as a landmark in our lives, the turning or beginning of the new. However, a short and halfhearted commitment in repentance will not be sufficient BUT likewise, no baptizing will suffice either, for surely is is by grace alone through Faith. Living Faith. (see James 2:26 )
How can all this be?

Baptism is the putting on of the New, which is something that is evidence of itself in those who, by faith, come unto God, believing in the Word and testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for the sins of the world that who so ever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, Christ being raised and living and coming again.
We are 'sealed' with Hope which maketh glad and this is the evidence that we look for and that is witness to the baptism we received by faith, the mark, the setting apart from the world unto God, by Him and for Him, Whose Name be praised and to Whom belongs all the glory. (see Hebrews 11:1 )

In Abraham's day and until the Spirit was poured out circumcision was the sign for those who were and for those who looked upon them.
Since Christ came in the flesh, Baptism serves to seal the faith of those who will be called and who will by faith come unto the Lord and from henceforth live by the Spirit, the Spirit bearing fruit, the lives of believers bearing witness, not to Baptism but to Him Who died and was raised and now sits at the right hand of God.
The way of faith is unto all men, whether Jew or Greek or Gentile or bond or free, rich or poor, and circumcision of the flesh serves nothing.

Yes, Abram was counted as faithful and therefore was set apart through faith.
We are called to be faithful and likewise be set apart. (see 1Peter 1 - please read whole chapter)

Being set apart is not a yo-yo thing. Being set apart is a permanent decision and position, not a casual or part-time position.

Once again, Hope maketh glad.

Do you want such a seal?


Bless you ....><>

Ephesians 4:4- 6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[B-A-C]

Greetings,
circumcision was an outward mark of those set apart, hence circumcised. Under the Law and without yet the Promise prophesied being come (that spoken of as Who and What the LORD would send, being Jesus the Christ and His Spirit), such a mark or seal was appropriate, the Law being also written on stone, Israel being under the protective shield of the schoolmaster, hemmed in and surrounded on every side, set apart not by the fleshy circumcision but by the LORD through the Law.
In like manner, Baptism is a seal BUT it is the circumcision of the heart which is the requirement of the Baptism being of any effect.
John preached Repentance and baptized all in the River Jordan. Herein lies the key, repentance... BUT...
repentance is not something good for today, good in order to be baptized. No, it is a complete and definite turning away, setting apart the world from and turning instead to the Lord Jesus Christ that we may have access to the Father, of Whom Abraham is counted righteous.
Baptism is needful as a sign, as a mark, as a landmark in our lives, the turning or beginning of the new. However, a short and halfhearted commitment in repentance will not be sufficient BUT likewise, no baptizing will suffice either, for surely is is by faith alone. Living Faith.
How can all this be?

Baptism is the putting on of the New, which is something that is evidence of itself in those who, by faith, come unto God, believing in the Word and testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for the sins of the world that who so ever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life, Christ being raised and living and coming again.
We are sealed with Hope which maketh glad and this is the evidence that we look for and that is witness to the baptism we received by faith, the mark, the setting apart from the world unto God, by Him and for Him, Whose Name be praised and to Whom belongs all the glory.

In Abraham's day and until the Spirit was poured out circumcision was the sign for those who were and for those who looked upon them.
Since Christ came in the flesh, Baptism serves to seal the faith of those who will be called and who will by faith come unto the Lord and from henceforth live by the Spirit, the Spirit bearing fruit, the lives of believers bearing witness, not to Baptism but to Him Who died and was raised and now sits at the right hand of God.
The way of faith is unto all men, whether Jew or Greek or Gentile or bond or free, rich or poor, and circumcision of the flesh serves nothing.

Yes, Abram was counted as faithful and therefore was set apart through faith.
We are called to be faithful and likewise be set apart.

Being set apart is not a yo-yo thing. Being set apart is a permanent decision and position, not a casual or part-time position.

Once again, Hope maketh glad.

Do you want such a seal?


Bless you ....><>

ps will add Scriptures in due course (unless someone beats me to it!

Do you think being baptized in Jesus, into repentance, into water, and into the Holy Spirit are all the same thing that happen at the same time? (any scripture to support this?) Mark 1:8; Acts 1:5; Acts 10:47; Acts 19:2-6; )
Do you think we are sealed by water baptism or by the Holy Spirit? Or do you think we are sealed by hope (which maketh glad)? (any scripture to support this?) ( Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30; )
Do you have any scripture to support faith alone? (The only verse in my Bible where faith and alone are together in the same verse, is in James 2:24; where it specifically says "not by faith alone").
Why do you think Abraham was counted as faithful? Because of what he said he believed, or by his acts of faith? James 2:21-24;
I agree being set apart is not a yo-yo thing, it isn't casual, but it certainly can be given up, if someone wants to bad enough. ( Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26; Heb 10:29; 2 Pet 2:20-22; )

 

[RJ]

There are some who say being born of water simply means a natural childbirth, this is unlikely because all men are born this way.
Only certain men are born of water and the Spirit.

There are some who say, Jesus himself said it!!!!:

• John 3:3-6....
  3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” .4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.....This is talking about two separate births.B-A-C, how in the world can anyone enter the kingdom of God unless they are first born of their mother's womb? Isn't everyone, first born of their natural/physical birth, birth from the water of the womb, have the right to be "Born of the Spirit" and saved, is that not the gospel? Jesus is talking here about entering the kingdom of God. How, on God's green earth, can a person go to heaven, if they don't exist??? All are created but only those born of the spirit can enter heaven, that was Jesus's message to Nicodemus......can't you see that???
  

  Why would anyone not want to be baptized? Even if your salvation does not depend on it.

  Nowhere in my opening thread did I say anything about not being baptized. The common point in the thread was that, like circumcision of old, baptism does not save you.....salvation is through faith alone! You can avoid that all you want with rhetoric but it does not change this simple truth one bit!!

 

[RJ]

I don't know that baptism is required for salvation, but it's something Jesus did and taught, also his disciples baptized people.
It seems it is something we should do.

(Jesus was baptized)
Matt 3:13; Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
Matt 3:14; But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
Matt 3:16; After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,

Mark 1:9; In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mark 1:10; Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him;

Luke 3:21; Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22; and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

Acts 2:38; Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12; But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
Acts 8:13; Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

By far most the scriptures about water baptism are in Acts after Jesus ascended back into heaven.

(the Ethiopian Eunuch was a Gentile)
Acts 8:35; Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
Acts 8:36; As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"
Acts 8:37; [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."]
Acts 8:38; And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Acts 8:39; When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing.

(Cornelius and his soldiers were Gentiles)
Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Acts 10:46; For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
Acts 10:47; "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
Acts 10:48; And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

(Paul was baptized)
Acts 9:17; So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
Acts 9:18; And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized;

(The jailer for Paul and Silas was baptized)
Acts 16:30; and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31; They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:32; And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Acts 16:33; And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

Acts 22:16; 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

(Paul baptized some people)
1 Cor 1:16; Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

1 Pet 3:21; Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

John 3:22; After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.
John 3:23; John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized--

It seems Jesus's disciple actually baptized more people than John the Baptist.
John 4:1; Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
John 4:2; (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

There are some who say being born of water simply means a natural childbirth, this is unlikely because all men are born this way.
Only certain men are born of water and the Spirit.

Why would anyone not want to be baptized? Even if your salvation does not depend on it.

During Jesus day, the prevailing "outward" sign that indicated your faith in God and separated you from others was circumcision. Jesus was circumcised following the actions of God and John The Baptist but made no mention of the need for it for salvation. Jesus needed a sign that separated Christians from others and that was baptism. All of the verses that you use to support the need to be baptized is true but none of them say or did Jesus say you must or that it is required for salvation. On the other hand, scripture clearly indicates salvation is by faith and God's grace alone. Again, Jesus said you must be born again, he did not say you must be baptized in order to be born again!

 

[B-A-C]

Nowhere in my opening thread did I say anything about not being baptized. The common point in the thread was that, like circumcision of old, baptism does not save you.....salvation is through faith alone! You can avoid that all you want with rhetoric but it does not change this simple truth one bit!!

Well I certainly agree that we aren't saved by baptism alone.
Again, I would ask if you have any scripture saying we are saved by faith "alone".

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I would go so far as to say faith requires an "act of faith" in order to be faith.

Heb 11:4; By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Heb 11:7; By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Heb 11:11; By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; ..( see Jas 2:21; )

Heb 11:21; By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

Heb 11:24; By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25; choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:27; By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
Heb 11:28; By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
Heb 11:29; By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

Heb 11:30; By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31; By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. ..( see Jas 2:25; )

Heb 11:32; And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33; who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34; quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
Heb 11:35; Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

Heb 11:39; And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I'm sure you can show me at least one verse that says we are saved by faith. (which leaves open the possibility that more is required).
But can you show me any scripture that says "faith alone" or "grace alone". If not, it's probably a false doctrine that isn't in the Bible.

The Christian walk requires FAITH (yes) and GRACE (yes) but it also requires bearing fruit, doing deeds appropriate for repentance,
it requires taking off the old self and putting on the new self, it requires obedience and repentance, it requires having a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

I can show you verses that say how to be saved. We could pick just one or two of these out and say that's all that is required.
But most likely we should probably try to do all of them in order to be saved.

We need to endure to be saved.
Matt 10:22; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
Mark 13:13; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

It's possible we need to believe AND be baptized.
Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Acts 2:21; 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

Depending on how far out of context someone goes...
Acts 27:31; Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."

So there you have it. I can be saved by enduring, I can be saved by baptism, I can be saved by calling on the name of the name. (NO mention of faith in those verses)
Maybe I can even be saved by remaining on a ship. It's amazing what kind of doctrine can be built around isolated verses.

Rom 8:24; For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Maybe I can be saved by hope? Faith isn't required.

Rom 10:9; that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Maybe all I have to do is confess with my mouth Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. ( No mention of faith here)

1 Cor 5:5; I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Maybe we need to be turned over to Satan so we can be saved?

Tit 3:5; He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Maybe it's the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit that saves us, not faith alone or grace alone?

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Maybe I just need to born of the Spirit to be saved? Who needs faith?

Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Maybe all I need to do is repent to be saved?
There are at least a dozen ways to be saved that don't mention faith or grace.
I personally don't believe we can be saved by doing any one of them "alone".
Especially when there is no scripture saying it is by "_______" alone.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=--=-=.

I do believe believe faith and grace are required, but that isn't all that is required.
Maybe it's all the above (not sure about the ship ).
But I still don't see where it says "faith alone" or "grace alone".

 

[RJ]

I can show you verses that say how to be saved. We could pick just one or two of these out and say that's all that is required.
But most likely we should probably try to do all of them in order to be saved.

We need to endure to be saved.
Matt 10:22; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
Mark 13:13; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

It's possible we need to believe AND be baptized.
Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Acts 2:21; 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

Depending on how far out of context someone goes...
Acts 27:31; Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Unless these men remain in the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved."

So there you have it. I can be saved by enduring, I can be saved by baptism, I can be saved by calling on the name of the name. (NO mention of faith in those verses)
Maybe I can even be saved by remaining on a ship. It's amazing what kind of doctrine can be built around isolated verses.

Rom 8:24; For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Maybe I can be saved by hope? Faith isn't required.

Rom 10:9; that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Maybe all I have to do is confess with my mouth Jesus is Lord in order to be saved. ( No mention of faith here)

1 Cor 5:5; I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Maybe we need to be turned over to Satan so we can be saved?

Tit 3:5; He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Maybe it's the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit that saves us, not faith alone or grace alone?

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Maybe I just need to born of the Spirit to be saved? Who needs faith?

Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Maybe all I need to do is repent to be saved?
There are at least a dozen ways to be saved that don't mention faith or grace.
I personally don't believe we can be saved by doing any one of them "alone".
Especially when there is no scripture saying it is by "_______" alone.

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I do believe believe faith and grace are required, but that isn't all that is required.
Maybe it's all the above (not sure about the ship ).
But I still don't see where it says "faith alone" or "grace alone".

Well I certainly agree that we aren't saved by baptism alone.
Again, I would ask if you have any scripture saying we are saved by faith "alone".

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I would go so far as to say faith requires an "act of faith" in order to be faith.

Heb 11:4; By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Heb 11:7; By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Heb 11:11; By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; ..( see Jas 2:21; )

Heb 11:21; By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

Heb 11:24; By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25; choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:27; By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
Heb 11:28; By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
Heb 11:29; By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

Heb 11:30; By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31; By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. ..( see Jas 2:25; )

Heb 11:32; And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33; who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34; quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
Heb 11:35; Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

Heb 11:39; And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
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Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I'm sure you can show me at least one verse that says we are saved by faith. (which leaves open the possibility that more is required).
But can you show me any scripture that says "faith alone" or "grace alone". If not, it's probably a false doctrine that isn't in the Bible.

The Christian walk requires FAITH (yes) and GRACE (yes) but it also requires bearing fruit, doing deeds appropriate for repentance,
it requires taking off the old self and putting on the new self, it requires obedience and repentance, it requires having a personal relationship with Jesus.

Well I certainly agree that we aren't saved by baptism alone.

Well I certainly agree that we aren't saved by baptism alone.
Again, I would ask if you have any scripture saying we are saved by faith "alone".

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I would go so far as to say faith requires an "act of faith" in order to be faith.

Heb 11:4; By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

Heb 11:7; By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Heb 11:11; By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.

Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; ..( see Jas 2:21; )

Heb 11:21; By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

Heb 11:24; By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25; choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:27; By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
Heb 11:28; By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
Heb 11:29; By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.

Heb 11:30; By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31; By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. ..( see Jas 2:25; )

Heb 11:32; And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33; who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34; quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
Heb 11:35; Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

Heb 11:39; And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Jas 2:26; For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I'm sure you can show me at least one verse that says we are saved by faith. (which leaves open the possibility that more is required).
But can you show me any scripture that says "faith alone" or "grace alone". If not, it's probably a false doctrine that isn't in the Bible.

The Christian walk requires FAITH (yes) and GRACE (yes) but it also requires bearing fruit, doing deeds appropriate for repentance,
it requires taking off the old self and putting on the new self, it requires obedience and repentance, it requires having a personal relationship with Jesus.

Well I certainly agree that we aren't saved by baptism alone.
Let's don't stray from the original thread, which I started BTW., I know you are complelled to do works but I am not.
So, let's get back to the original thread: We don't agree on this either. My point is, that we have never and will never be saved by baptism , either done alone or with anything else !!!!

 

[RJ]

I'm sure you can show me at least one verse that says we are saved by faith. (which leaves open the possibility that more is required).
But can you show me any scripture that says "faith alone" or "grace alone". If not, it's probably a false doctrine that isn't in the Bible.

Oh brother B-A-C, you are something else. We have gone round and around for going on years now. You want to be justified by your works and I do not. I have , in the past, given you ample scripture about the "stand-alone" value of grace and faith. It wouldn't do me any good to quote you that again. It all boils down to this, no scripture this time, just my simple faith:
We can do nothing, nothing at all to gain our salvation, except put our faith in Jesus Christ alone, God said that was sufficient. I am truly sorry that is not enough for you!

 

[Stickz]

I can't show verses that say we are saved by faith alone or works alone, but there is a verse that is obviously speaking about water-baptism that says "baptism doth now save us", but there are large groups of people that apparently disregard it, so would a verse that actually says the words "faith alone" or "works alone" actually change anything? Seems to me that people are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of what the Bible may or may not actually say anyway. I have to believe that God allowed it to be this way for a reason because the Bible could have definitely been written more clearly when it comes to almost everything. I mean, really, is there ANY topic that all denominations of Christian agree on?

I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: ( KJV )
I Peter 3:21 And, corresponding to that figure, the water of baptism now saves you--not the washing off of material defilement, but the craving of a good conscience after God--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ( Weymouth NT )
I Peter 3:21 This water symbolizes baptism, which now saves us (not by the removal of dirt from the body, but by an appeal of a good conscience to God,) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ( RKJNT )

 

[RJ]

I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: ( KJV )
I Peter 3:21 And, corresponding to that figure, the water of baptism now saves you--not the washing off of material defilement, but the craving of a good conscience after God--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ( Weymouth NT )
I Peter 3:21 This water symbolizes baptism, which now saves us (not by the removal of dirt from the body, but by an appeal of a good conscience to God,) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, ( RKJNT )

These verses are saying it is not the act of being in the water that saves you but a good conscience. Are you telling me that there are not many ways to appeal to God with a good conscience? Having to do it by water baptism alone is absurd. It is by faith (a good conscience) in Jesus Christ that saves you alone!

 

[Stickz]

I didn't say "baptism alone" did I? You're putting words into my mouth, RJ. And, does the verse say that baptism now saves us or doesn't it? Word for word? I was only showing scripture, how everyone decides to interpret it is not up to me. The scriptures DO however talk about what Jesus actually did for us, and dying on the cross for our sins is part of that, but doesn't scripture ALSO say that he was raised for our justification? These verses seem to me to be comparing or showing some relationship between the water baptism and the resurrection of Christ. Justification and a good conscience sound like they could go hand in hand to me ...? Oh, and if I'm not mistaking, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but in English grammar the things said INSIDE the parenthesis can often be completely omitted without losing the meaning of the sentence. If we were to omit the parenthetical stuff:

The like figure whereunto even baptism also now save us by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Right? Anybody an English major in here?!

 

[RJ]

I didn't say "baptism alone" did I? You're putting words into my mouth, RJ. And, does the verse say that baptism now saves us or doesn't it? Word for word? I was only showing scripture, how everyone decides to interpret it is not up to me. The scriptures DO however talk about what Jesus actually did for us, and dying on the cross for our sins is part of that, but doesn't scripture ALSO say that he was raised for our justification? These verses seem to me to be comparing or showing some relationship between the water baptism and the resurrection of Christ. Justification and a good conscience sound like they could go hand in hand to me ...? Oh, and if I'm not mistaking, correct me if I'm wrong, please, but in English grammar the things said INSIDE the parenthesis can often be completely omitted without losing the meaning of the sentence. If we were to omit the parenthetical stuff:

Stickz, I am truly sorry that you take such offense to this. I HAVE never put words in "your" mouth! Please listen, we both have a right to our own opinion on this. Let me get my opinion straight: What I am saying is that baptism, as worthy as it is has nothing , absolutely nothing , to do with you being saved. Salvation comes only by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ and nothing more or less! NO matter how you rearrange it, If you don't believe that so be it, it just so happens that I do....I am not going to sit here and argue that point with you......have a blessed day!

 

[Stickz]

I didn't take any offense, RJ, but you DID post that I said that baptism "alone" saves us and I didn't say that. You assumed that that was what I was saying because you didn't understand how else to take it, but that doesn't mean that that was what was meant, or the only way to interpret it. You assumed and therefore put words in my mouth ( so to speak ) even though I know you didn't really mean to do it. Sometimes there IS more than two ways that something can be interpreted. I don't see that the verse saying "baptism now saves us" as replacing Jesus' dying on the cross as the one thing that saves us ( as I believe was what you are/were seeing ), but that baptism along with the cross and other things as what we need to believe in to be saved. Jesus done many things while he was here, dying on the cross was not the only thing. His word alone saved people before he went to the cross to die.

You narrow salvation down into ONE simple thing, believing that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and that is it ( I think? ), where myself and some others believe that there is a little more to it than that. Some believe that JUST believing there IS a God is enough to get them into Heaven. Some would say, well, that isn't correct because you have to believe in Jesus etc, but if they believe that God IS Jesus then what's the problem? If you believe that he exists you must also believe the things he done, right?

Can a person consider themselves saved if they say that they believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins but don't believe anything else in the Bible to be true? If, no, then who decides what else a person has to believe so that they can be saved? It varies depending on who you talk to, but I believe that I must believe EVERYTHING that is said, or I put myself in the ( what I would call ) precarious position of deciding what to rule out. I believe that Jesus was the Word of God made flesh so I can't accept his dying on the cross for my sins to be fact but disregard the things that he said. If I believe in Jesus Christ, I believe in ALL of Him, everything he did, everything he said. So, to you, it is just the one simple thing that you believe you have to accept, to me it is all of it. Believing something is and believing in it are two different things to me, just like saying you believe something and really believing it are two different things.

You and I both believe that Jesus is the gate to Heaven we just disagree on how many steps one has to take to pass through said gate.

My first post in this thread was not really one of argument either, by the way, but you don't seem to realize things like that sometimes, RJ. I was really only pointing out that there is in fact a verse in the Bible that says the words "baptism saves us" but it holds no credibility of any kind, does it? Look at ALL the arguments in the threads on this site alone ( intended ) where people have said things like, "show me a verse in the Bible that actually says the words 'faith alone' or 'works alone' and I'll believe it but until then ..." and here we have a verse that says the words "baptism saves us" word for word and what does it mean? Nothing. Just pointing out something that took place right here in this thread. Not opinion. Fact.

One more thing: If you really believe that it is okay for everyone to have their own opinion on things then let everyone have their own opinion.

 

[RJ]

RJ, but you DID post that I said that baptism "alone" saves us and I didn't say that

• O.K. great, would you please show me where I said that...thanks!
• Again, so I don't say things unclear here, My stance has always been, long before we met, that water baptism in conjunction with something else or totally by itself, has nothing to do with salvation!
  

  One more thing: If you really believe that it is okay for everyone to have their own opinion on things then let everyone have their own opinion.

  Since you are not in an offensive mind-set, could you please show me where I ever said, you didn't have a right to your opinion, so I can quickly correct that?!

 

[Edward]

Water baptism symbolizes the believer’s total trust in, and total reliance on, the Lord Jesus Christ, as well as a commitment to live obediently to Him. It also symbolizes unity with all the saints (Ephesians 2:19), that is, with every person in every nation on earth that is a member of the body of Christ (Galatians 3:27-28). Water baptism expresses this and more, but it is not an entrance into Christianity. Instead we are baptized because our Lord commanded it and because we obey Him. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19).

Before we are baptized we must come to believe that we are sinners in need of salvation (Romans 3:23). We must also believe that Christ died on the cross to atone for our sins, that He was buried, and that He was resurrected to assure our place in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We then turn to Jesus, asking Him to forgive our sins and to be our Lord and Savior, and the moment we do that we are born again, our eternal salvation is guaranteed, and we begin to die to ourselves and live for Christ (1 Peter 1:3-5). At this time we are qualified to be scripturally baptized.

At the river, pool or baptismal font, we let ourselves be completely immersed in the water. This symbolizes burial with our Lord; we are baptized into His death on the cross and are no longer slaves to self or sin (Romans 6:3-7). When we are raised out of the water, we are symbolically resurrected—raised to our new life in Christ and to be with Him forever, born into the family of our loving God (Romans 8:16).

The fact that baptism is not a prerequisite for salvation is best seen in the example of a saved man who was not baptized in water, the criminal on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). This self-confessed sinner came to acknowledge Jesus as his Lord while dying on a cross next to Him, and he asked for salvation and was forgiven of his sins. Although he never experienced water baptism, at that moment he was baptized into Christ’s death, and he then was raised to life by the power of Christ’s word (Hebrews 1:3).

Christians have been commanded to be baptized, and we should do so out of obedience to, and love for, our Lord Christ Jesus (John 14:15). Water baptism is the biblical method of baptism because of its symbolic representation of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Read more: What is the symbolism of water baptism?

God Bless

 

[Stickz]

RJ: "These verses are saying it is not the act of being in the water that saves you but a good conscience. Are you telling me that there are not many ways to appeal to God with a good conscience? Having to do it by water baptism alone is absurd. It is by faith (a good conscience) in Jesus Christ that saves you alone!"

RJ: "Again, so I don't say things unclear here, My stance has always been, long before we met, that water baptism in conjunction with something else or totally by itself, has nothing to do with salvation!"

That's fine, RJ, I believe I've known your stance on it for some time now. And now everyone that reads this thread, that has any questions about the baptism, can take everything into consideration and make their own decisions about what the Bible says and what to decide is truth. That's all we're trying to do here, right? Because none of us have ALL the answers, right? Since most Christians seem to admit that then all things should be taken into consideration about everything.

"Since you are not in an offensive mind-set, could you please show me where I ever said, you didn't have a right to your opinion, so I can quickly correct that?!"

Since I'm not in an offensive mind-set or an offended mind-set?

RJ, I can't show you word for word where you've said that people don't have a right to their own opinions but your posts are often only corrective and argumentative. You've argued with me in threads where I was agreeing with what YOU had said in the thread. Relax, Man, I'm a much calmer person than I used to be. I haven't changed the things that I believe much though.

Peace be unto you, RJ.

 

[Stickz]

Edward, no offense, and I'm not wanting to debate it with you, but I do find it kinda interesting that the ONLY example of someone that was saved without water baptism ANYONE has ever offered me was the thief on the cross. The gospels start out submerged in water, everyone from all around the land of Israel and beyond was coming in to be baptized by John the Baptist or Jesus' disciples, and there was probably millions of people that had been baptized in water at that time, right? For all we know?

Jesus started his ministry after being baptized by John and receiving the Holy Ghost and it lasted three years, right? Honestly, since the Bible doesn't really tell us much at all about the thief, I don't see how anyone can actually be sure that the thief had NOT been baptized at one time or another since everyone seemed to be getting baptized in that region during that time. Because he had been arrested for having been a thief, he could not have been baptized before that? I'm not saying that is what happened, I'm just saying that I see it as something possible. Perhaps he did the thievery, felt badly and turned to God and was baptized, but was finally arrested for the crime and punished accordingly? Who knows? I just find it really odd that pretty much everyone in the entire Bible was baptized ( including Old Testament people ) and people who don't believe in the baptism of water pick the one guy out as proof that it isn't important. And we make that assumption based on what? The handful of verses that he exists in in scripture? Just saying.

 

[RJ]

RJ, I can't show you word for word where you've said that people don't have a right to their own opinions but your posts are often only corrective and argumentative. You've argued with me in threads where I was agreeing with what YOU had said in the thread. Relax, Man, I'm a much calmer person than I used to be. I haven't changed the things that I believe much though.

• O.K. so you can't show me where I said others can't have opinions?
• You said: RJ, but you DID post that I said that baptism "alone" saves us and I didn't say that. So now, you're saying that you miss-spoke about what I said and that wasn't really true!
• Thank you for your honesty!