Do you think being baptized in Jesus, into repentance, into water, and into the Holy Spirit are all the same thing that happen at the same time? (any scripture to support this?) Mark 1:8; Acts 1:5; Acts 10:47; Acts 19:2-6; )
Do you think we are sealed by water baptism or by the Holy Spirit? Or do you think we are sealed by hope (which maketh glad)? (any scripture to support this?) ( Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30; )
Do you have any scripture to support faith alone? (The only verse in my Bible where faith and alone are together in the same verse, is in James 2:24; where it specifically says "not by faith alone").
Why do you think Abraham was counted as faithful? Because of what he said he believed, or by his acts of faith? James 2:21-24;
I agree being set apart is not a yo-yo thing, it isn't casual, but it certainly can be given up, if someone wants to bad enough. ( Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26; Heb 10:29; 2 Pet 2:20-22; )
Ephesians
CHAPTER 1.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus
our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace
be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love
which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
6 Which is come unto you, as
it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as
it doth also in you, since the day ye heard
of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;
8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard
it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated
us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood,
even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether
they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all
things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased
the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him,
I say, whether
they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in
your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and
be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard,
and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26Eventhe mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27To whom God would make known what
is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Where unto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
@B-A-C
No sir, I do not have scriptures that say by faith alone, except that which you mentioned BUT I do have many, indeed we all do, that clearly resemble that which I attempted to say, being that faith alone is appropriate, IF such faith be what might be called living faith or as might sometimes be reasoned to be working faith (in contrast to broken or non-functioning faith).
Please, Brother, and all others, I do not wish to get into an argument or even a debate over this.
I think we all know and understand what is meant here and yet some can not rest at night without first entering into or adding to a divisional afterthought in order to appear before men as learned or 'more blessed' characters (and i am not pointing fingers at any one)
Faith without works is dead. But, the big problem that overcomes so many is the true understanding of exactly what 'work' are or is.
Before i get challenged and before anyone goes into a long or short attack on me or what i am saying, I ask that all might stop and consider this and really put an exact list of what works are (if they can). Most (very most - excuse the bad English) tend yo quote the words and phrases that everyone else quotes and that they are comfortable with before man/men.
Let us beware of such folly and instead seek out the Lord, the Living Word, as to what He counts as both Faith and Works (such that are faith without works is dead.)
Please also read James 2. Those who know understand also that reading little bits of Scripture can often leave out the actual message being conveyed, so please read the whole chapter to see the message regarding this.
*as a side note, the whole of James or any other assage/book eg the whole of a Gospel and not only a chapter, gives the whole message which is really quite different than the snippets we so often either talk about or hear being presented to justify doctrines that are in opposition to the Gospel.
@B-A-C Again, no sir, I do not have any Scripture to say 'sealed' with hope. I stand corrected on this BUT, again, I know also as you do, that what I am saying is correct in that such hope that we refer to is evident in those who have turned, repented, believed and been baptised , been translated from darkness into Light, His marvellous light, lost but found, restored, redeemed and become followers and Christians. Or would that be better put, there is clear evidence of the hope in us? It becometh as a seal or mark or evidence that can be seen ; Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ; where faith hope evidence works salvation and life all appear to blend together or can be seen in unity with and in one another, but only and always only by grace according to the Promise which is Christ Who did the Works of the Father, of Whom we take our name and in Whom our trust is persuaded to rest, in all things, not just a few.
Beloved Brother, I am not particularly the smartest writer or speaker or thinker, BUT, can i tell you, please, that in my own life, hope was not only not to be found, I actively preached and wrote against it, and had some strong arguments to back up my stand, YET, I heard the Gospel and was saved, was converted, was changed, was suddenly telling everyone I met about my darling Hope, Who first loved me working an effectual purchase for me, an utter and base sinner... and every day since, He has ever been my Delight and Love beyond compare, and no matter how one may put it all, I know Who I have and do believe and as my Anchor and Stronghold, my Refuge and my Defence, My Glorying and my Captain, the Lord Jesus Christ Son of God Son of Man Lamb of God, He is the Hope I refer to,. so I wrtite or wrote my reply with Him on my lips, so to speak, as if His His kiss that sealed my betrothal had only been a twinkling ago. Does that make sense? ( it does to me!)
May I ask?.... have you been baptised, and if so, why so? Please understand that you do not have to reply here to that, but I ask the question of you all, for it appears that with all the debating over Baptism near everyone on both or all sides has been baptised... perhaps they forget that and their Lord when getting excited about topics that they probably would be stuck on if they didn't have their favourite version of translated Scriptures to read or that of their pleasing company?
I often wonder how Abram got on without any translation to argue about or to get confused over by too much study and not enough action (living,working out of his faith).
There are scores of references in Scripture to Hope, Gladness, Rejoicing and the Life, Evidence/Result of being on the right side of the LORD. Dozens upon dozens and I will be so bold as to say that if you take the full meaning of Hope and related Gladness out from the Scripture, out from the Life, out from the new man, then you would not in any way shape or form imaginable have a Gospel that could or would save and all faith would be pointless.
BUT, again, no, I do not have Scripture specific as requested but I do have Him Who is my Hope of Whom the Scripture testify and are written.
B-A-C wrote:
Why do you think Abraham was counted as faithful? Because of what he said he believed, or by his acts of faith?
Or, was it the faith that did not wither and die, run and hide or plain out deny when confronted with such mortal opposition that he had before him, that enabled him and empowered him and kept him and manifested itself in what we might classify as works or actions?
Is Faith something constant and not an independent and personal enactment of a feeling or lust? Is the Faith that Abraham had the same as we have today if we believe and is alive as his was by the working of itself in its life, being living faith and not an action that we see him doing or another doing today?
Did Abraham have to keep the faith after going bush or after offering his son, or were those two acts sufficient and he could from there chill out and go easy about all this faith stuff? He had done enough and passed the test and was in the door and that was that? He certainly could not boast in his works of doing things, could he?
------ regarding the thief on the cross next to Jesus(?); he did not and was not going to walk, or live on, as he was being executed. Is Baptism for those who will proceed and walk the faith (work /walk)?
He would never ever need to look back and remember a time of anything much given that he was about to die and would have no time left behind him. He didn't as such have a beginning of his Christian walk as we do, ordinarily, that is.
------------------
Back to the original post/thread, perhaps I did not properly understand some dynamics between some here and my reply was not really sought after? By all means correct me here if need be, but it does appear that the most of the thread has little to do with the subject and original post.
Bless you ....><>
