Circmscision vs. Baptism

[Thiscrosshurts]

I can see the merit of both positions.
In order to find common ground we need to be able to come to a common consensus of exactly what saved means?
Is it about escaping eternal torture or is it about living a victorious life in and through Christ.
Is there a fire insurance?
Do we need fire insurance?
Is this whole thing about living right or dying right?
What if the moment you believe is an eternal moment?
If eternal means "no beginning and no end" then how would eternal punishment even work?
We might be trying to understand eternal concepts with temporal information.

Saul was confronted by Jesus and suddenly believed.
To suddenly believe in Jesus when he is before you is grace for sure but not faith.
So was Paul even saved?
There is even some scripture that lends the appearance that you can be saved by proxy.

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.'
Acts 16:31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

The verses say your household "will be saved" ,it does not say "may be".

There is always the option that the truth is bigger than our logic and the answer is "something we have not yet considered".

 

[William Christopher]

@RJ

how to appropriately interpret justification

It is not my interpretation of justification... it is what scripture, even what the dictionary says:

Full definition of Justification: 1. the act, process, or state of being justified by God

Between the scripture and the dictionary, I don't understand how else we CAN interpret justification, but I'd love to hear the scriptural rock on which your belief is built.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Do you know what the literal, physical difference between sand and rock is? Are you building your house on solid rock, or a bunch of tiny pieces of it that you've arranged?

@Thiscrosshurts

Is it about escaping eternal torture or is it about living a victorious life in and through Christ.

This is the million dollar question, brother.

If eternal means "no beginning and no end" then how would eternal punishment even work?

Who said anything about eternal punishment?

There is always the option that the truth is bigger than our logic and the answer is "something we have not yet considered".

Are you inferring the Word is incomplete?

 

[RJ]

It is not my interpretation of justification... it is what scripture, even what the dictionary says:

Between the scripture and the dictionary, I don't understand how else we CAN interpret justification, but I'd love to hear the scriptural rock on which your belief is built.

Well there you go, the dictionary has nothing to do with interpreting the Bible!
I am not sure yet....did you "agree to disagree" with me yet, like I asked?!

 

[William Christopher]

Well there you go, the dictionary has nothing to do with interpreting the Bible!
I am not sure yet....did you "agree to disagree" with me yet, like I asked?!

I'm not sure. Depends on how we define agree and disagree. What shall we use to define them?

 

[RJ]

I'm not sure. Depends on how we define agree and disagree. What shall we use to define them?

You're certainly smart enough to know what I meant with out a poor attempt at being condescending brother. So, regardless, I personally "agree to disagree" with you and I am moving on! Just like your current choices in life, you choose what you need to do! The best of wishes on your continued spiritual growth.

 

[William Christopher]

@RJ I said what I said to make you think. You choose to attack my character (AGAIN):

a poor attempt at being condescending

instead of addressing the rock: the scriptural premise of the argument that refutes your personal belief.
You do this because you cannot argue your way around the rock.

You even tried to refute the dictionary, for crying out loud.

 

[RJ]

I said what I said to make you think.

I do not need your assistance in helping me think!
You pride will be your undoing in the end!
I am done, you can have the last word!

 

[William Christopher]

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[RJ]

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Yes and no water required!:thumbsup:

 

[William Christopher]

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings.

@RJ

To quote a Brother, Robert Evans in one of his songs, "If it's good enough for Jesus then it's surely good enough for me." Jesus was baptised.

Jesus was circumcised, does that fit into your song too?

Brother, this has been on my mind and please accept my appologies for a 'late' reply - I went walkabout for a week and one thing and another....

Firstly I would like to make it clear to all and everyone that the song I mentioned and the brother whose song it is does not specifically mention either baptism or circumcision but the words I used here being that if it's good enough for Jesus it's surely good enough for me. Please don't judge Robert Evans on me or what I wrote, I ask humble of you.
However, if I may mention of that song, the key part that was on my mind at the time of writing was about becoming a living sacrifice.
To be a little clearer (and again, I can honestly say that this does not in any way -for or against or indifferent to- represent Robert Evans and his thoughts or belief on any of this matter but I am inspired by his song in the message it gives and I personally consider it fit to mention here), below are the words to the mentioned song with source to justify our brother in this as he has had no say in it and I have used his name and work without request and my post has received comment in reply about it (-RJ)

from Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs - ALL FREE - Scripture
Songs - Bible Songs - Christian MP3 Music
(all songs totally free to download)

Good Enough
Song Description: There is no other way but to let go of all that's in our past and take up our cross daily and follow where Jesus leads.

It seems today
everyone wants to be holy
to be pure and pleasing in Your sight
but it seems that so few want to die
to be truly born again
to make themselves a living sacrifice

If it's good enough for Jesus
it's good enough for us

if it's good enough for You Lord
it's surely good enough for us

It seems today
everyone could use a blessing
just to share in the fruits of righteousness
but it seems so few want to share
in the sufferings of the Lamb
to make themselves a living sacrifice
to make themselves a living sacrifice

Robert Evans
---------------------------------------
As far as the bit about being circumcised, you have a point, RJ.
Was baptism (John's baptism) an Old Testament thing as circumcision was? Please tell me what you think or know about this?
I overlooked if it was or not and I confess that I have seen baptism as in the Baptism of Jesus, as a New Testament thing (sorry Lord and others for referring to such as 'thing'.)

Bless you ....><>

 

[RJ]

Was baptism (John's baptism) an Old Testament thing as circumcision was? Please tell me what you think or know about this?

I am honored to have felt good about everything you have represented in the past, and blessed that we agree mostly, something I can not say of others here these days. Though we may agree on most things, we can't say for sure because, for now, we only know in part, but I understand when God told Paul that his Grace was sufficient for him. So, I see this at work:

• Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
• I know many would disagree but having received God's free gift, I personally understand that Abraham wasn't credited righteous by circumcision ( the standard in that day) but by faith. I see the same for for Baptism... it is not the act of washing one's self, but the change in conscientiousness towards God and the gift of faith....especially in light of, it is Jesus who baptizes by the Holy Spirit.....that would be in or out of water.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed." Genesis 17: 11-12

I know of no statement in the New Testament saying "You shall be baptized."

John the Baptist said in Matthew 3: 11: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." Acts 1: 4-5

"Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost." Acts 11: 16

Once it is established in scripture that Christ's baptism is with the Holy Spirit, then any reference to baptism without defining it as immersion in water is Christ's baptism by the Holy Spirit. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" I Peter 2: 3: 21

And Christ in John 3: 4-7 says "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

"Ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin." "Ye must be born again." "John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost."

In the remaking of Old Covenant Israel and the transformation from the Old to the New Covenant, circumcision which was a requirement under the Law of Moses was done away with. In the New Covenant you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God, and this is a spiritual thing, not physical, like circumcision. And being baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit is that transition from the flesh to the Spirit, though it does not always happen all at once at one time.

 

[Chad]

I know of no statement in the New Testament saying "You shall be baptized."

Matthew 28:18-20
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Water Baptism | Talk Jesus
Baptism in Water | Talk Jesus

 

[tulsa 2011]

Yes, a doctrine of the Catholic Church affirms that water baptism saves. See: The Necessity of Baptism | Catholic Answers
"And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257)."

"The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6)."

Those who want an easy salvation would see water baptism as a procedure which will save a person. And the implication seems to be that water baptism will save a person even though he is not born again or baptized with the Holy Spirit. But scripture does not disagree with itself. That we must be born again to become saved is absolute truth and cannot be compromised, and being born again means one is baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit, which is not a physical act of being immersed in water.

The reference to John 3: 5 in the Catechism above is about this statement " Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Being born of water means physical birth from one's mother's womb. And even if it were true that Christ means water baptism here he also says one must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

Man leans to his own understanding in interpreting scripture. He does not easily leave his physical state and take on a spiritual one. Yet the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant is such a change from that which is physical under the Old Covenant to that which is spiritual under the New Covenant. Several traditions of men cause their followers to hold on to that which is physical and in doing so they do not become born again by the Holy Spirit into the Spirit.

 

[RJ]

Those who want an easy salvation would see water baptism as a procedure which will save a person. And the implication seems to be that water baptism will save a person even though he is not born again or baptized with the Holy Spirit. But scripture does not disagree with itself. That we must be born again to become saved is absolute truth and cannot be compromised, and being born again means one is baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit, which is not a physical act of being immersed in water.

Baptism can be and is a wonderful thing and can be very rewarding way to respect and follow in Jesus footsteps. The key here is footsteps, because Jesus has lead the way for many things, of which we are still not perfect at yet and these failures to live up to his standards do not preclude our salvation. God himself says it best in Ephesians 2:8-9 , For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. This is a gift and not of your own works, unless you could boast. There is too much of man's works involved in any Baptism, which precludes it from being an absolute necessity for salvation.

The reference to John 3: 5 in the Catechism above is about this statement " Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Being born of water means physical birth from one's mother's womb. And even if it were true that Christ means water baptism here he also says one must be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

I completely agree. Jesus follows up his explanation to Nicodemus by saying: John 3: 6 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit, gives birth to spirit.

Man leans to his own understanding in interpreting scripture. He does not easily leave his physical state and take on a spiritual one. Yet the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant is such a change from that which is physical under the Old Covenant to that which is spiritual under the New Covenant. Several traditions of men cause their followers to hold on to that which is physical and in doing so they do not become born again by the Holy Spirit into the Spirit.

And such is the case with circumcision or baptism because God can not allow ANY participation of man to preclude his salvation by grace and his work alone! You see this is his divine plan which defeats Satan perfectly, just like Jesus finished work on the cross perfectly atones for our sins!