Circmscision vs. Baptism

[Redeemed11]

Greetings @Redeemed11

Is that a typo or did you mean to say (write) that?

Bless you ....><>

No sir, I meant what I said (if we are thinking the same way) and I believe it wholeheartedly. I believe if we do what is commanded of us under this new covenant that we can KNOW that we have a hope of eternal life.
"Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life". (‭1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭24-25‬ ESV) I believe I have heard what was preached ( Romans 10:17 ) I have believed it ( John 8:24 ) I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and Christ; the son of God - and I pray I continue to confess Him every day - ( Matthew 10:32 ) and I was baptized for the remission of sins ( Acts 2:38 ). Also, Paul had it: "in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;" (‭Titus‬ ‭1‬:‭2-3‬ ESV) I believe God has promised it, told me how to get it, and I can obtain it if I do His blessed wil. Now, in regards the the Old Testament, I believe it holds a lot of good lessons for us to learn, it is after all "for our instruction" ( Romans 15:4 ) but does not have the answer to eternal life for the covenant that we are now under ( Hebrews 8, Hebrews 9 ). I pray that all may come to have the peace that comes with the knowledge of a hope of eternal life with Him one day.

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings, @Redeemed11
thank you sir for your reply. May I encourage you to look more and again into the Old Testament part of the Bible. The title, 'Old Testament' of course refers to exactly that, the Old as in contrast(?) with the 'New' but the part of the Bible we refer to as the Old Testament is in fact the Scripture where we will find the New and every aspect about it. In fact, we discover more and more about the excellency of the LORD and our mental understanding is enlightened, (if I may use that term) as the Old Testament (part of the Bible) is all about Jesus, the Word of God and it clearly shows mans interaction and response to the mercy and grace of God in relation to Judgement, Love and Faith.
Circumcision or Baptism?
Is there a difference and what is it and can we explain it using words of man?

Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

Circumcision or Baptism?
Is there a difference and what is it and can we explain it using words of man?
Bless you ....><>

Other than the obvious physical difference (being submerged in water vs having the skin removed from a specific part of the male anatomy).
There are over a dozen verses in the New Testament where we are specifically told to baptize and be baptized, another dozen that talk about Jesus and the disciples getting baptized.

Matt 3:6; Matt 3:13-16; Mark 1:5-9; Mark 16:16; Luke 3:7; Luke 3:12; Luke 3:21; Luke 7:29; John 3:23; Acts 2:38-41; Acts 8:12-16; Acts 8:36-38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:47-48; etc...
The Pharisee's specifically rejected being baptized. Luke 7:30; Some Bibles say they rejected God's purpose by doing this.

On the other hand, we are specifically told that circumcision no longer means anything.
Rom 2:25-29; Rom 3:1; Rom 4:11-12; 1 Cor 7:19; Gal 5:2-6; Gal 6:15; Php 3:2-3; etc...

In fact if you're doing circumcision under the law, then you should depend on the law to save you. ( Gal 5:2-3; )

Here is the US, over 90% of all males are circumcised before they leave the hospital. This isn't by choice (they are only a couple of days old at the time).
It may be specifically requested or denied by the parents, but generally it is done for health reasons.

 

[Redeemed11]

I

Other than the obvious physical difference (being submerged in water vs having the skin removed from a specific part of the male anatomy).
There are over a dozen verses in the New Testament where we are specifically told to baptize and be baptized, another dozen that talk about Jesus and the disciples getting baptized.

Matt 3:6; Matt 3:13-16; Mark 1:5-9; Mark 16:16; Luke 3:7; Luke 3:12; Luke 3:21; Luke 7:29; John 3:23; Acts 2:38-41; Acts 8:12-16; Acts 8:36-38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:47-48; etc...
The Pharisee's specifically rejected being baptized. Luke 7:30; Some Bibles say they rejected God's purpose by doing this.

On the other hand, we are specifically told that circumcision no longer means anything.
Rom 2:25-29; Rom 3:1; Rom 4:11-12; 1 Cor 7:19; Gal 5:2-6; Gal 6:15; Php 3:2-3; etc...

In fact if you're doing circumcision under the law, then you should depend on the law to save you. ( Gal 5:2-3; )

Here is the US, over 90% of all males are circumcised before they leave the hospital. This isn't by choice (they are only a couple of days old at the time).
It may be specifically requested or denied by the parents, but generally it is done for health reasons.

I am in school right now and don't have any time to respond fully @Br. Bear but I fully agree with this post @B-A-C
There is a difference between the purpose of the two.

 

[RJ]

Other than the obvious physical difference (being submerged in water vs having the skin removed from a specific part of the male anatomy).
There are over a dozen verses in the New Testament where we are specifically told to baptize and be baptized, another dozen that talk about Jesus and the disciples getting baptized

• I started this thread and the whole point was they are similar in the context of what is required for salvation. In the Old Testament, many felt / thought that circumcision ( man created not spirit created) was necessary for salvation. God said no, Abraham was saved not by circumcision but by God , spiritually, through faith!
• Similarly, now in the New Testament, baptism ( man created) does not save, but by God, spiritually through faith.
• Mark 16: 16 says, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Why does it not say, " whoever is not baptized will be condemned" ? As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation.
  

 

[Redeemed11]

God said no, Abraham was saved not by circumcision but by God , spiritually, through faith!

The way you propose this is a faith that is without works, a passive one, but let's not forget James though, "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when we offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with works, and faith was completed by his works; and the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed in God, and it was counted to him as righteousness' - and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." ( James 2:20-24 ). Works (the kind that it's talking about here, like the ones when you are baptized through faith ( Colossians 2:12 ) where the work takes place with God ("the powerful working of God")) are necessary for faith to be complete. Faith is active, or it is dead. That's why Ephesians 2:8-9 make so much sense with baptism! To complete faith one has to, through faith, be baptized in water. The very next verse even mentions works "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).

Similarly, now in the New Testament, baptism ( man created) does not save, but by God, spiritually through faith.

Like I said, it is only through faith that someone can be baptized: Acts 8:37. I also wish to know how baptism is man created if Jesus himself ordained that it saves us in verses like Mark 16:16?

Mark 16: 16 says, Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Why does it not say, " whoever is not baptized will be condemned" ? As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches through careful consideration of the language and context of the verse. We also filter it through what we know the Bible teaches elsewhere on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I will say this again: the absence of "whoever does not believe and is baptized will be condemned" doesn't change the message. Rather than looking to what is not said, let's look to what it does say, the way to be saved, not just how to avoid hell, because I, for one, am far more concerned with what Jesus says about being saved: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,..." Plus, there are many verses that exclude belief and only talk about baptism ( 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Galatians 3:27, 1 Corinthians 12:13, Romans 6: 1-11 just to name a few), does that diminish the necessity of belief? Certainly not! We believe it is necessary for our salvation because the New Testament (and more specifically Jesus) says it is, just like it does baptism. Further, only someone who believes can be baptized as I stated in my last passage above. And grammatically the absence here makes perfect sense, (in our language as well as in the Greek) example: “He who boards the plane and takes the flight will be in Phoenix, but he who does not board the plane will be left behind.” Does it need to say “and does not take the flight” for the message to be clear? Does it make either part of the sentence less true or necessary to obtain the end result? If one does not board the plane, then one cannot take the flight. Similarly, if one does not believe, then one cannot be scripturally baptized. Further, if we follow this reasoning to its logical conclusion, then the moment we have boarded the plane we are in Phoenix (whether we’ve taken the flight or not).

So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation is a faulty interpretation.

If you stand by this statement then you are saying hat confessing Christ does not save, because confession is with the mouth (a physical thing). You must have meant something different than what you said, because confession is an act we must do just like baptism and it saves: 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:10, Luke 12:8, Matthew 10:32

 

[RJ]

The way you propose this is a faith that is without works, a passive one, but let's not forget James though, "Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

• I think it is important that you listen clearly please! What you say and the verse in James for support, is an incorrect usage. It literally means that once presumably saved and you, in fact, do not have works from Jesus, through you, then your faith dead to start with and you are actually not saved! John15:5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. Apart from Jesus in you, the works (fruits) you produce, proves that your faith is useless!

You see that faith was active along with works, and faith was completed by his works

This is a statement that you made up; there is no scriptural proof of this!

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when we offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

• Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,...Justified...just as if you have never sinned. God says that by your faith and the evident works of Christ through you, he attributes you as justified. Faith comes with salvation instantaneously first, then soon after comes works. The works here belong to Christ (as seen in the above John 15) and come after faith. Yes, Abraham was justified by works but only after faith!

Any way Redeemed, we will never come to an agreement. I could go on but there is no sense in it, there is too much divide between us to keep going on and on. One of us speaks truth and one of us is a false teacher. Jesus said, that when we come to an impasse with one another, we should "dust off our feet" and move on! Let's dust off our feet and move on.
God bless you and your understanding and your spiritual growth!

 

[Redeemed11]

This is a statement that you made up; there is no scriptural proof of this!

Friend, James 2:22 is very plain when it says :"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;" I think the words "along with" and "by" are very important here for us to understand what is being said. Trying to explain a way around a passage does not change it's presence or message. If we will just look at what is said and understand it along with ALL other scripture we will see that we don't have to explain it away for it to be true. As for the usage of James, I do not seek to use it in any way, but to take it for what it says, and that includes the 22nd verse of the 2nd chapter.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,...Justified...just as if you have never sinned. God says that by your faith and the evident works of Christ through you, he attributes you as justified.

I find it interesting that there are those two words "through faith" (in which one is baptized) again. I applaud your zeal for the word sir, but I believe you are right, we cannot see eye to eye apparently. But I would ask if you could please answer my last question, please. In relation to confession and acts we must do. Thank you, RJ.

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Can we recall a verse that has these words in it....

"keep My Commandments" ?

A vine branch that has only a one-off surge of sap (or life) go through it, no matter how much it may grow with outward show, is not fit for keeping.
Likewise, Faith must be an ongoing obedience, lest it be found dead.
-----------------------
May I ask again what are the similarities between circumcision and baptism, as the original post mentioned?

Bless you ....><>

 

[RJ]

May I ask again what are the similarities between circumcision and baptism, as the original post mentioned?

I answered this in my original / opening thread and in the post below. It is an analogy between the Old Testament (circumcision) and the New Testament (baptism) where by man's works does not save a person but by faith and God's grace alone.

• I started this thread and the whole point was they are similar in the context of what is required for salvation. In the Old Testament, many felt / thought that circumcision ( man created not spirit created) was necessary for salvation. God said no, Abraham was saved not by circumcision but by God , spiritually, through faith!

• Similarly, now in the New Testament, baptism ( man created) does not save, but by God, spiritually through faith.

 

[RJ]

But I would ask if you could please answer my last question, please. In relation to confession and acts we must do. Thank you, RJ.

You asked please and I will do this one last time:

• I looked back and just can't find that question.
• But, it really makes no difference.
• You have given me your scriptures and I see them all differently and the same with you for the scriptures that I offered.
• Aside from scripture it comes down to faith. I have faith in God alone first by his grace, and then there are works that will prove and enhance my faith. You feel that you must perform works prior or in order to receive God's grace.
• You say water plays an integral role in your salvation and I say you can be saved in or out of water.
• So, I am hoping that we can agree to disagree and that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and, now, move on! God Bless

 

[Redeemed11]

I looked back and just can't find that question.

I suppose it was more of an implied question, I apologize. I said:

If you stand by this statement then you are saying hat confessing Christ does not save, because confession is with the mouth (a physical thing). You must have meant something different than what you said, because confession is an act we must do just like baptism and it saves:

That was what I wanted an answer to. I'll phrase it like this though: If our confession of Christ saves us, then physical things we must do save us: do you agree with this? Why or why not?
I really would like an answer to this. I am trying to fulfill the scriptures where it says: "For ye were once darkness, but are now light in the Lord: walk as children of light (for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth), proving what is well-pleasing unto the Lord; and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them;" (‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭8-11‬ ASV) and "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world." (‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬ ASV), because I believe that (like the water that saved some and destroyed the rest in the Noah anology in 1 Peter 3, I believe it is the same now, like Peter says; many choose not to obey the command to be baptized for the remission of sins, and it's detrimental to the kingdom) this is false doctrine being spread, just as you do with mine. Please reply, thank you.

Can we recall a verse that has these words in it....

"keep My Commandments" ?

John 14:15, That was my original comment @Br. Bear
I totally agree with this. I think if we obey all the commands He gave us, we are truly loving Christ. I think that's the whole gist of it, we cannot pick and choose.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

the following may be of some use for some?

Leviticus 20:22-26
¶Ye shall therefore keep all My statutes, and all My judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. 23 And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. 24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people. 25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. 26 And ye shall be holy unto Me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be Mine.

Being cut off, set apart, cleansed, sanctified, separate, one and a people.

Bless you ....><>

 

[RJ]

• ¶Ye shall therefore keep all My statutes, and all My judgments, and do them
• James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
• Try, yes, but keep all the statues and judgments is impossible.

 

[RJ]

I totally agree with this. I think if we obey all the commands He gave us, we are truly loving Christ. I think that's the whole gist of it, we cannot pick and choose

It is impossible for you to keep them, James 2:10

 

[Redeemed11]

It is impossible for you to keep them, James 2:10

I do not see how that verse says it is impossible for me to keep Jesus' commandments? It just says that people who keep the whole law and fail in one point is guilty of all of the law. How does that say I cannot obey the commands of Jesus and love him?

And would you please answer my question about confessing? That's what I really want to be made clear. And if you cannot prove your statement about acts not saving with the Bible then just say so, and explain what you actually meant, or if I misrepresented what you were saying, please.

 

[RJ]

I do not see how that verse says it is impossible for me to keep Jesus' commandments? It just says that people who keep the whole law and fail in one point is guilty of all of the law. How does that say I cannot obey the commands of Jesus and love him?

1. The Bible teaches that the laws are holy and righteous.
2. God calls us holy and righteous but not us, for it is the one inside us is that is! And because of this, God credits us with holiness and righteousness but not by our deeds!
3. In the James verse, He is actually talking about how the law can not save us; the only way that could possibly happen is if you could perform all the many points of the law and do it 24/7 without missing one point ever.
4. That is what its says, and if you are saying that you, Redeemed, are capable of doing all the points of the law perfectly, you do not know the fundamental difference between the Old and New Covenants, and you are living in a lie. There was only one person capable of performing all points of the law perfectly and they hung him on a cross!

If our confession of Christ saves us, then physical things we must do save us

1. In Protestantism, , righteousness from God is viewed as being credited to the sinner's account through faith alone, without works.
2. Romans 5:1
   Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
   Ephesians 2:8-9
   For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
   Romans 3: 28
   For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
   Galatians 2:16
   Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
   Romans 4:5
   And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
3. Your confession in Jesus Christ does not save you!!!!!.....God's grace saves you!
4. Who understands exactly how it all happens but God is explicit, works are not allowed to save you, by God's grace only!

I have relented and answered your questions one more time but I am respectfully done. I respect your right to think differently and I wish you would respect mine. I will avoid any further reply with concerning these issues. You have the last word...God Bless.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @RJ

for it is the one inside us is that is!

I have heard this said a lot but is this a Scripture or a notion that folk tend to say and repeat?
Maybe I am missing something? I understand the 'idea' presented here but as you (and others) like to stand so strongly on Scripture as it is written, I wanted to ask this of you, please.
It will be good for me and probably others if you put forth the Scriptures that reveal this 'doctrine'.
Thank you,
Bless you ....><>

 

[Redeemed11]

I have relented and answered your questions one more time but I am respectfully done. I respect your right to think differently and I wish you would respect mine. I will avoid any further reply with concerning these issues. You have the last word...God Bless.

I appreciate you giving me the last word. And I wish I could respect your point of view as well; but seeing as how it is not biblical, I cannot. But I do respect your decision not to answer me back anymore (if I didn't have any verses that proved my point I wouldn't want to continue either) and I will honor it and pose no questions for you to answer in this post; I will only pose rhetorical ones, ones that the viewing audience can read and find Bible answers for. Although, I wish you would have provided a verse that says "confession does not save you," or "baptism does not save you," or "repentance does not save you" so that the discussion could at least be fair. But the fact is you can't, because none of those statements are truer than any other man-made doctrine. That is why I am so relentless and concerned, RJ. Not because I want to be right or I want somebody else to be wrong; I simply want the truth to be made known to others who have been engulfed in this scriptureless "doctrine," some, for their whole life. There is a wise saying that goes "It is easier to believe a lie you've heard a thousand times, than to believe a truth you've heard once." And how are we to find truth or peace, or anything pertaining to our spiritual life for that matter, unless we can find it in the scripture? I don't think we can, friend. Just a thought.

In Protestantism, , righteousness from God is viewed as being credited to the sinner's account through faith alone, without works.

I am not concerned with anything but the New Testament church, the one established in 33 A.D. at the day of Pentecost belonging to Jesus Christ. Not the one established almost 1500 years too late. And if you accredit your belief to Protestantism, let's take a look at what the "father of the Protestant Reformation" had to say about baptism and other things that require outward obedience:

" affirm that Baptism is no human trifle, but that it was established by God Himself. Moreover, He earnestly and solemnly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. No one is to think that it is an optional matter like putting on a red coat. It is of greatest importance that we hold Baptism in high esteem as something splendid and glorious. The reason why we are striving and battling so strenuously for this view of Baptism is that the world nowadays is full of sects that loudly proclaim that Baptism is merely an external form and that external forms are useless.... Although Baptism is indeed performed by human hands, yet it is truly God’s own action" (1978, pp. 98-99)."

and;

"But our know-it-alls, the new spirit people, claim that faith alone saves and that human works and outward forms contribute nothing to this. We answer: It is of course true that nothing in us does it except faith, as we shall hear later. But these blind leaders of the blind refuse to see that faith must have something in which it believes, that is, something it clings to, something on which to plant its feet and into which to sink its roots. Thus faith clings to the water and believes Baptism to be something in which there is pure salvation and life, not through the water, as I have emphasized often enough, but because God’s name is joined to it.... If follows from this that whoever rejects Baptism rejects God’s word, faith, and the Christ who directs us to Baptism and binds us to it." (1978, pp. 101-102).

Both of these statements are from one of Martin Luther's own memoirs entitled Large Catechism.

Now I, personally believe that I am not to follow any man unless his words are in harmony with those of God (thus, supported by scripture); 1 Peter 4:11 "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God". Martin Luther was wrong about a lot of things, as was the catholic church, but to find true spiritual "enlightenment" (to use Br. Bear's word) we must make sure whatever is taught to us harmonizes with the Bible (like the Bereans in Acts 17:11 ). Luckily he was very right about this topic. Because there is ample scripture to support it.
I know that "protestantism" refers to everyone in "Christiandom" who is not affiliated with the catholic church, but there are many things that make me not want to affiliate myself with most Protestant churches either. Namely because not only have most of them left the Bible's teaching (which has given us everything pertaining to life and Godliness, and is all we need for matters pertaining to such 2 Peter 1:3 ), but the man they base their doctrine on's teaching, too. Now that is inconsistency!
Now, by no means am I saying a man should dictate what one is to and not to believe, Galatians 1:8-12 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ:" unless what he is saying is supported by scripture (and that means it can't make another scripture a lie).

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 3: 28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Galatians 2:16
Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Romans 4:5
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Again, we cannot just find a few verses that only include faith in them and say "Well, since it doesn't include an act here, that must mean they're not necessary!" It would be just as wrong of me to go to Romans 6:3-11 and read it and say "Well, it doesn't mention faith or repentance or grace or anything but baptism here, and this is a whole passage about it... That must mean that baptism is the only thing I need to do be saved!" Now how preposterous would either of those things be? Yet you are saying the first one is true. We cannot ignore dozens of other examples and verses just to try and say that these verses you've provided prove your doctrine. If that's how your faith system works, we need to be talking about something that has to be established before we get to the way to get saved; and that is the inspiration of all the scriptures: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and in training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, and equipped for every good work."
I think it would be best if you looked into the different meaning of "works" that are found in the New Testament. Meritorious works or works of the law do not save us, that would mean we have to earn our salvation and we would have something to boast about. But the fact is we don't, ( Luke 17:10 ), and, like this verse says, when we have done everything that is commanded of us, we are still unworthy servants. Works of the law do not save us. I would agree, we are under a new covenant that was bought with Christ's blood according to Hebrews 8-10. There were even some at Galatia who were "severed from Christ" for trying to be justified by the law of Moses ( Galatians 5:4 ). You see, we do not deserve God's grace (as I'm sure we both can agree) but to neglect what He has given us to come into contact with that grace would be blasphemous.

• I never have said that grace doesn't save, it is by the grace of God that we CAN be saved. We wouldn't have anything to lead us to that salvation if it weren't for Him and His grace. It is all because of that reason that we have the option to obey or not obey the gospel at all. The Bible says that God's grace saves us: Acts 15:11, 1 Timothy 1:9, Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8, etc.
  
• I have never said, nor would I ever say, that faith is not involved in one's salvation. The Bible provides verses that say that faith saves: John 8:24, John 3:15-16, Romans 10:9-11, Mark 16:16, etc.
• The Bible says that repentance saves us: Luke 13:3-5, Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Acts 17:30, 2 Corinthians 7:10, etc. Now how could you say salvation is before repentance if repentance chronologically comes before we are remissed of our sins according to Acts 2:38? Someone reading this might be saying "I didn't know I could be saved without having already had my sins removed." That's because, according to the Bible, you can't be.

Concerning confession (that is, confession of Christ with your mouth before others) you said:

Your confession in Jesus Christ does not save you!!!!!.....God's grace saves you!

I am not saying God's grace doesn't save us... as I just said, the Bible says it most certainly does save us. But watch this:
I'm going to use two of the very verses you used against me to support your idea that baptism and other acts don't save, and read what it really says to support the fact that because of God's grace it, and other acts, do save; but only those required by God. Let's go to Romans 10:8 "But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" So it IS with the mouth (a physical part of the body) that you are saved... Wait! That's what Jesus said too in Matthew 10:32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven."
Now notice I underlined verse 13 in Romans 10 "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Paul is quoting Joel! The same thing that peter did in Acts 2! But, as we are about to see, this cannot mean belief as so many say it does (or even confession for that matter); That would contradict what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21. So what is it? Well if we read a little farther we see that the "calling" has to come after belief:
Romans 10:14 "How then will they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" So one cannot call on the name of the Lord until after they have believed. Well that's in perfect harmony with Saul's conversion story in Acts 22. And what does he say about it? We read that Saul had been journeying, and heard a voice from heaven. Now, while all this is going on, Saul calls Jesus Lord! Is he saved at this point? He believes Jesus is Lord and even called Him that. He even prayed to God while on his way to his new destination. But was he saved then? Let's see: In Acts 22:16, once Saul has reached his destination, Ananias says to Saul "'And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'" So, if grammar applies here (both Greek and English) we see that "be baptized" is the antecedent of "calling on the name of the Lord." So they are referring to the same thing. And it is at that point that Saul's sins were "washed away." Peter said this in Acts 2; he had preached to them and quoted Joel 2:32, and when the crowd asked him in Acts 2:37 what they must do (after they had believed - the result of which was them being cut to their hearts - already), Peter answers and says in Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." So the answer to "What must we do?" was "Repent and be baptized." And so this is also in harmony with the scriptures we have just read. You see, confession IS required of you by the Lord, otherwise it wouldn't be in His word. Just like other acts we must perform, we believe that confession is necessary because God says so.
Backtrack with me real quick though; ultimately what finally put Paul in the realm of the saved? Well... We see that on the road he believed and confessed, he obviously repented of his previous lifestyle and turned towards a new one, and then he was baptized. How perfectly in line with scripture!

• And now to the topic of baptism. Since we have already established that one who acts and obeys the commands God gave us can, by the grace of God, have a hope of eternal life. But one of those things that must be done is to be baptized according to the Bible: 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Corinthians 12:13, etc.

One final point that I would like to make before moving onto the next section is the one I have pointed out about John 6:28-29. Here, the people following Jesus (after Jesus has just rebuked them for only following them so He will do a miracle and make more food for them) ask "What can we do to be doing the works of God." and Jesus answers "Believe on Him whom He has sent." So we see that believing (or faith) is a work that must be done by people. This is confirmed further be James 2:14-26 (Especially James 2:22 I would say). So how can it be that we have no part in our own salvation through the acts that we do when faith itself is an act and you say it saves us? We can't have it both ways. Either acts do save us, or they don't; we can't pick one and leave the rest out. So, as we have seen, acts do save, and this makes John 6:29 fit in perfectly and harmoniously with the other scriptures we've looked at, and the rest of them in general.
Let us all pray to be better students of the Bible.

Who understands exactly how it all happens but God is explicit, works are not allowed to save you, by God's grace only!

You say this, but I do not think that you have got this right at all, as we have just seen. The things we do play a part in our salvation. God has always required a person to take action in order to come into contact with His saving grace. For example: God, through Moses, parted the Red Sea. Now, with these walls of water before you, do you walk or not? God provided the Israelites a way to salvation from the Egyptians, but they had to choose to walk through, otherwise the walls of water would have been of no use to them. They had to put their faith into action to be saved. Again: in Numbers 21:4-9 (the background of John 3:16) we see another example of this. The people in the wilderness begin to complain and so God sends fiery serpents in among them. These people who were being bitten were dying, and so Moses, on their behalf, approaches God and asks for a way to salvation. God says that he is to erect a fiery serpent on a pole, and whoever looks at it, if they are bitten, will live anyway. So, you're an Israelite; and you get bitten by a snake. You know what God said to do and you have faith in Him, but you never look at the pole. You have all the faith in the world that God will save you, but you never do what He says you must to achieve that salvation. Are you saved, or do you die? Well, since God is true, and you chose not to do what he said, you die. Also, do you really have faith since you never truly obeyed God? The same is true today. If we have all this "passive faith" and don't act upon it will it save us? Let's read James 2:14-26 again and see what the answer is. Faith is ALWAYS active voice. Never passive, because a passive faith cannot and does not save today. John 3:16 says "... whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." So one who believes should not have to perish. That statement is a whole lot different that "will not perish" that some "translations" use. One who has faith should act upon it and do the rest that God commands.
I also think wrong again, and we can understand "how it all happens" because "God is not a God of confusion" ( 1 Corinthians 14:33 ) and Paul said in Romans 6:6 that we can "know" that through baptism "our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing,..." I want to know... I want to have the hope, and the peace. So I choose to believe the Bible's teaching on salvation.

God bless you too, sir! May He, truly, bless you abundantly, and open your heart to what the Bible teaches instead of clinging to a man-made doctrine that will not save. Because, if you have hardened your heart to the teaching of salvation from the Bible, and only are allowing a sriptureless, man-made doctrine to determine your eternal destination, then how are you to ever be open to the Bible's teaching and come to an understanding that provokes belief in action?

In hope and love,
Jacob

(P.S. I hope everyone has a blessed Lord's day seeing as it is Sunday! Please pray for those in countries who cannot meet together or are having to do so in secret for fear of persecution)

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings @Redeemed11
You write very well for a 17 year old.
May I clarify something?

"I didn't know I could be saved without having already had my sins removed." That's because, according to the Bible, you can't be.

Let us NOT forget hat the atonement made was and is all about forgiveness of sin, ie sins being removed, even nailed to the cross.
Forgiveness has been completed and while some might find it hard to understand or not, forgiveness has been paid for and is offered to all, and that spells good news to all AND that is whether one accepts the grace offered unto him or not.
A crude but still appropriate example is that you are welcome here, yes? You accepted the opportunity to join Talk Jesus, yes?
You didn't have to, BUT you did.
NOW, this is where some of the debate we are presently partaking in comes in.... while you are now a member (remember that you did nothing but accept the free offer to all) you can partake and be an active part of the forums OR not.
Of course, when we consider Jesus, Who, while we were yet sinners died for us, we can not compare anything in this world or the world to come with Him and what He has accomplished for man, what He fulfilled and paid for for man, what He was obedient unto death for all.

Our Lord Jesus Christ was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. He paid a price that no man can pay and absolutely nothing ever will begin to equal, and it pleased God. It is sufficient for God.
Do you believe this, even a little bit? If you are able to give thanks for, accepting/receiving unto yourself such a gift, it is faith AND, no matter how much anyone on the planet might attempt to reason out anything other than this, it would be deception, just as the original deception came upon mankind and resulted in the spotless Lamb of God pouring out His Blood in order that all might be saved, for as the Bible plainly teaches all, all have sinned, ALL, and the wages of sin is death.
What comes after this is the walk of faith which obeys as He leads.... or drops off and dwindles and is good for nought : Luke 8:10-15
10 And He said,
Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Isaiah 55:6-13 Seek ye the LORD while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. 38 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. 10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:11 So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. 13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

This thread, while starting about Circumcision and Baptism (I think?) has been majoring on some minors and forgetting the majors, or should that really be major or better still, the Captain (Prince Leader) of our Salvation*. Speaking of Baptism a verse that perhaps not as many as might think that they agree and are willing to follow states this,

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him. 10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Bless you ....><>

* 9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 2:9-10