Circmscision vs. Baptism

[RJ]

I have heard this said a lot but is this a Scripture or a notion that folk tend to say and repeat?
Maybe I am missing something? I understand the 'idea' presented here but as you (and others) like to stand so strongly on Scripture as it is written, I wanted to ask this of you, please.
It will be good for me and probably others if you put forth the Scriptures that reveal this 'doctrine'.
Thank you,

Excuse me? You are a Moderator and you do not understand these things? I will answer this a best I can, but you tell me what you disagree with, or is it something else that you are missing?
1. Christ In Us
John 6:54-56
"Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal Life, and I will raise him up at the last Day. For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed. He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me, and I in him."
John 14:19-20
“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."
John 15:3-5
"You are already clean because of the Word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
John 17:22-23
"And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are One: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in One, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
Romans 8:9
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
2 Corinthians 4:8-11
"We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed— always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the Life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the Life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."
2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."
Galatians 1:15-17
"But when it pleased God, Who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..."
Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the Life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Galatians 4:19
"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you..."
Ephesians 3:14-17
"For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from Whom the whole Family in Heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...".
Philippians 3:7-8
"But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for Whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ..."
Colossians 1:27
"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Colossians 3:9-11
"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the Image of Him Who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."
1 Timothy 1:16
"For this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all long-suffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting Life."
Hebrews 3:14
"For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end..."
1 John 3:24
"Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit Whom He has given us."
1 John 4:4
"You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He Who is in you is greater than he who is in the world."
1 John 4:12-16
"No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal Life, and this Life is in His Son. He who has the Son has Life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have Life."

2. Not Our Righteousness But Christ's In Us -or- Not Our Righteousness But Imputed Righteousness And Another Gift From God

1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption
Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

3. Scripture is very important! Aside from all the scriptures in the Bible, there is only one thing alone that proves to me that these above things are true and that is by the faith given to me by faith!

 

[Redeemed11]

Greetings @Redeemed11
You write very well for a 17 year old.
May I clarify something?


Let us NOT forget hat the atonement made was and is all about forgiveness of sin, ie sins being removed, even nailed to the cross.
Forgiveness has been completed and while some might find it hard to understand or not, forgiveness has been paid for and is offered to all, and that spells good news to all AND that is whether one accepts the grace offered unto him or not.
A crude but still appropriate example is that you are welcome here, yes? You accepted the opportunity to join Talk Jesus, yes?
You didn't have to, BUT you did.
NOW, this is where some of the debate we are presently partaking in comes in.... while you are now a member (remember that you did nothing but accept the free offer to all) you can partake and be an active part of the forums OR not.
Of course, when we consider Jesus, Who, while we were yet sinners died for us, we can not compare anything in this world or the world to come with Him and what He has accomplished for man, what He fulfilled and paid for for man, what He was obedient unto death for all.

Our Lord Jesus Christ was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. He paid a price that no man can pay and absolutely nothing ever will begin to equal, and it pleased God. It is sufficient for God.
Do you believe this, even a little bit? If you are able to give thanks for, accepting/receiving unto yourself such a gift, it is faith AND, no matter how much anyone on the planet might attempt to reason out anything other than this, it would be deception, just as the original deception came upon mankind and resulted in the spotless Lamb of God pouring out His Blood in order that all might be saved, for as the Bible plainly teaches all, all have sinned, ALL, and the wages of sin is death.
What comes after this is the walk of faith which obeys as He leads.... or drops off and dwindles and is good for nought : Luke 8:10-15
10 And He said,
Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.12Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.14And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.15But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Isaiah 55:6-13 Seek ye the LORD while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. 38 For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. 10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:11 So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. 12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. 13 Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

This thread, while starting about Circumcision and Baptism (I think?) has been majoring on some minors and forgetting the majors, or should that really be major or better still, the Captain (Prince Leader) of our Salvation*. Speaking of Baptism a verse that perhaps not as many as might think that they agree and are willing to follow states this,

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?4 Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him. 10 For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Bless you ....><>

* 9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and by Whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 2:9-10

Thank you for your compliment, sir. It means a lot! I try my best to study the Bible as often as I can, and sharpen my writing and speaking skills. I do think it would be shameful not to remember the atonement made once for all on the cruel tree. I emphasized Romans 6 (like you) for just that reason. To forget the whole reason any kind of forgiveness is even possible would be blasphemous, and would take for granted the purpose/cause in God's plan from before time as to our salvation. Thank you!

 

[Redeemed11]

Excuse me? You are a Moderator and you do not understand these things? I will answer this a best I can, but you tell me what you disagree with, or is it something else that you are missing?
1. Christ In Us
John 6:54-56
"Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal Life, and I will raise him up at the last Day. For My Flesh is food indeed, and My Blood is drink indeed. He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me, and I in him."
John 14:19-20
“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."
John 15:3-5
"You are already clean because of the Word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."
John 17:22-23
"And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are One: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in One, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me."
Romans 8:9
"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."
2 Corinthians 4:8-11
"We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed— always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the Life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the Life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."
2 Corinthians 13:5
"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified."
Galatians 1:15-17
"But when it pleased God, Who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles..."
Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the Life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me."
Galatians 4:19
"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you..."
Ephesians 3:14-17
"For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from Whom the whole Family in Heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...".
Philippians 3:7-8
"But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for Whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ..."
Colossians 1:27
"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Colossians 3:9-11
"Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the Image of Him Who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."
1 Timothy 1:16
"For this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all long-suffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting Life."
Hebrews 3:14
"For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end..."
1 John 3:24
"Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit Whom He has given us."
1 John 4:4
"You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He Who is in you is greater than he who is in the world."
1 John 4:12-16
"No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
1 John 5:11-12
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal Life, and this Life is in His Son. He who has the Son has Life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have Life."

2. Not Our Righteousness But Christ's In Us -or- Not Our Righteousness But Imputed Righteousness And Another Gift From God

1 Corinthians 1:30
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption
Philippians 3:9
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

3. Scripture is very important! Aside from all the scriptures in the Bible, there is only one thing alone that proves to me that these above things are true and that is by the faith given to me by faith!

Even after the word has been opened to you, you choose to shut it out and cling to this "doctrine" that cannot hold its ground against scripture.

 

[RJ]

Even after the word has been opened to you, you choose to shut it out and cling to this "doctrine" that cannot hold its ground against scripture.

• Politely, my message and answer was addressed specifically to Br. Bear and not you!
• But since your are bent on hurling insults, and since all the scriptures I quoted were about Jesus Christ being inside a Christian, what exactly is it that you don't agree / understand ,or believe that Christ is in you?

 

[Redeemed11]

I apologize, sir, I do not intend to insult you. I only wish to point out how you are not letting the scriptures speak, and continue to throw out verses that still do not prove your doctrine. The question was asked if you could supply a verse that supports your idea of faith alone. Yet, in those verses, as you said, you only quoted verses about Jesus being inside of Christians. I do not object to this point, the Bible says that He is in us, not only do I believe that He is in us, I believe that we can be in Him. Galatians 3:27, and Romans 6:3 both state that we are baptized into Christ. So not only does He dwell in me, but I in Him. So, you have supplied these verses about how Christians have Christ in them, but the question remains: how does one become a Christian? You say the answer is by grace alone through faith alone. But, in my previous replies we have seen that this cannot be the case. There is more required of a person to become a Christian than just belief. Grace plays its part no matter what we do, but it is like Br. Bear said in his analogy about the website, we have to choose to take a part in that grace for it to affect us. So, He has set guidelines for anyone to follow to come into contact with the saving blood of Christ; if we follow them we are covered by that saving grace, and if we do not, we are not. It's still extended freely! But we have to choose to accept it. The question is still: could you please supply a verse or verses that support this idea of faith alone. This isn't my question though, it's Br. Bear's. I will be waiting with eagerness for an answer, sir. And, I again may reply, I didn't know that just because the question wasn't directed towards me I wasn't supposed to respond, I thought this was an open forum. I apologize once more if I may have offended you, but sir, you must realize that nothing I said wasn't true: this is a man made doctrine that cannot hold when compared to scripture. This is not different from what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 15:9 and Mark 7:7. But we are told to only teach what is in accord with sound doctrine in Titus 2:1. So, until there is something to make this idea of yours sound, something that can shatter all the biblical evidence that has been supplied, this "faith alone" belief is still man-made. I understand if you choose not to reply again.

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[RJ]

I apologize, sir, I do not intend to insult you. I only wish to point out how you are not letting the scriptures speak, and continue to throw out verses that still do not prove your doctrine. The question was asked if you could supply a verse that supports your idea of faith alone. Yet, in those verses, as you said, you only quoted verses about Jesus being inside of Christians. I do not object to this point, the Bible says that He is in us, not only do I believe that He is in us, I believe that we can be in Him. Galatians 3:27, and Romans 6:3 both state that we are baptized into Christ. So not only does He dwell in me, but I in Him. So, you have supplied these verses about how Christians have Christ in them, but the question remains: how does one become a Christian? You say the answer is by grace alone through faith alone. But, in my previous replies we have seen that this cannot be the case. There is more required of a person to become a Christian than just belief. Grace plays its part no matter what we do, but it is like Br. Bear said in his analogy about the website, we have to choose to take a part in that grace for it to affect us. So, He has set guidelines for anyone to follow to come into contact with the saving blood of Christ; if we follow them we are covered by that saving grace, and if we do not, we are not. It's still extended freely! But we have to choose to accept it. The question is still: could you please supply a verse or verses that support this idea of faith alone. This isn't my question though, it's Br. Bear's. I will be waiting with eagerness for an answer, sir. And, I again may reply, I didn't know that just because the question wasn't directed towards me I wasn't supposed to respond, I thought this was an open forum. I apologize once more if I may have offended you, but sir, you must realize that nothing I said wasn't true: this is a man made doctrine that cannot hold when compared to scripture. This is not different from what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 15:9 and Mark 7:7. But we are told to only teach what is in accord with sound doctrine in Titus 2:1. So, until there is something to make this idea of yours sound, something that can shatter all the biblical evidence that has been supplied, this "faith alone" belief is still man-made. I understand if you choose not to reply again.

In hope and love,
Jacob

Like I said, I have no further comment on your false theology. Most kindly, the only thing I have left to do and will continue to do is pray for your deliverance to the truth before time runs out. God Bless.

 

[Redeemed11]

Like I said, I have no further comment on your false theology. Most kindly, the only thing I have left to do and will continue to do is pray for your deliverance to the truth before time runs out. God Bless.

You say that what I believe (and is) the biblical teaching of salvation is, is false doctrine, yet you have yet to even give one verse that supports your viewpoint. Not one verse that says 1.) acts don't save or 2.) faith alone is all that's required to be saved. I fail to see how the view that I have presented, the one in this discussion that has biblical backing and explicit verses to support it, is the false teaching in this situation. I, as well, will be praying, sir. Not only for you, but for anyone else who may believe this "doctrine" can bring them salvation, and for everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth; and through the only means it can be reached: the Bible, not a made up idea.

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[RJ]

I fail to see how the view that I have presented, the one in this discussion that has biblical backing and explicit verses to support it, is the false teaching in this situation. I, as well, will be praying, sir. Not only for you, but for anyone else who may believe this "doctrine" can bring them salvation, and for everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth; and through the only means it can be reached: the Bible, not a made up idea.

In hope and love,
Jacob

You are very young and have a lot to learn yet...God willing you will!

 

[Redeemed11]

You are very young and have a lot to learn yet...God willing you will!

I agree, sir, I do have much to learn. I do not think I can ever know all that there is to learn. But, I do not see a time in my future when I will stop to search and fight for the truth. I believe there is much for your eyes to be opened to, as well. The way to salvation is a very important topic, and the fact that the Bible speaks against your view, yet you still cling to that view, is very nerve-racking. I hope that your heart can be softened to the truth, and you will accept it. I will say this quote again; "It is easier to believe a lie you've heard a thousand times than to believe a truth you've heard once." We cannot just discard the word of God because it doesn't agree with what we've been taught our entire lives. May God bless you, sir.

In hope and love,
Jacob

P.S. I'm sure Br. Bear and all viewing this thread would still like a verse to support your idea. I know I would.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

NIV
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
living translation
And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
KJV
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
ISV
Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,

I am thinking the verse refers to water baptism as a symbol of something just as circumcision was a symbol of something.
Flesh circumcision was a symbol of the the true circumcision,that of the heart.

Water is a symbol for the word and baptize means"to immerse" so I think it's a physical sign of the true immersion that saves and that is immersion in the word.
The word is a person named Jesus.
So there is a spiritual immersion and maybe that was the immersion that the thief on the cross experienced.
Is it possible that being saved is not about a ticket to heaven or hell,could it be that it is a ticket out of a wasted life into an abundant one.?

Jesus spoke of Gehenna which was Jerusalem's garbage dump. Could be it that he was referring to a waisted life?
I think I now see "saved" in a broader perspective almost like an environment more than a ticket to wonderland.
But really I just depend on grace because I don't get all the time.

You guys are intimidating because your really smart,I've been studying this 25 years and I still haven't got it figured out.
.

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 19:2; He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3; And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4; Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 2:38; Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 10:48; And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Of course all this started with the Old Testament practice of baptizing in water. It really isn't mentioned in the Bible often.
But it was part of the ritual to become a priest. Today we are all considered priests, with Jesus being our high priest.

Lev 8:6; Then Moses had Aaron and his sons come near and washed them with water.
Lev 16:4; "He shall put on the holy linen tunic, and the linen undergarments shall be next to his body, and he shall be girded with the linen sash and attired with the linen turban (these are holy garments). Then he shall bathe his body in water and put them on.
Lev 16:24; "He shall bathe his body with water in a holy place and put on his clothes, and come forth and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people and make atonement for himself and for the people.

Numb 8:7; "Thus you shall do to them, for their cleansing: sprinkle purifying water on them, and let them use a razor over their whole body and wash their clothes, and they will be clean.
Some orthodox Jews, even today practice something called Mikveh (sometimes spelled Mikvah). Rather than post a link, you might want to do a search on it.

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

I am not a Baptist, but I attended a Baptist church for many years. The majority of course say baptism is required for salvation.
However, the reasons for Baptism have changed.

For example Rom 6:3-4; seems to indicate it symbolizes the death of our old flesh. The rising up out of the water symbolizes
rising up out of the grave with Christ. The death of the old man remains in the grave so to speak.

Heb 10:22; seems to be referring back to the old Testament practice of Mikveh.
1 Jn 5:8; talks about being baptized by the Spirit, the water and the blood.

Acts 2:38; seems to say baptism is done for the forgiveness of sins.
1 Pet 3:21; says that Baptism saves us, not by removal of dirt

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Of course all this started with the Old Testament practice of baptizing in water. It really isn't mentioned in the Bible often.
But it was part of the ritual to become a priest. Today we are all considered priests, with Jesus being our high priest.

Very interesting,I can see a valid connection.It was exclusionary at first just as the priesthood.
The priesthood was a lifestyle.The priests had no inheritance other than God himself.
That speaks to me of total immersion into Gods ways/environments/kingdom/paths.

Look here is God making himself available,what prevents me from fully immersing myself in him?
I wonder if that would be as effective as a physical bath.

 

[William Christopher]

@RJ I would like to make you aware of a mistake in your attempts to rationally present your case:

You are very young and have a lot to learn yet...God willing you will!

This is what is known as a circumstantial ad hominem logical fallacy.
By attacking the personal circumstances of the other person in an argument, you establish a lack of quality in the premise of your own. In other words, you're no longer attempting to argue that your case is reasonable on the value of God's Word. It is my sincere wish that you further examine the scripture that you may believe in spirit and in truth, no matter what any man says.

@B-A-C I went to baptist churches for a while, but I was unfortunately taught that baptism was an outward expression of an inward act. Did anyone try to teach you this?

 

[B-A-C]

@B-A-C I went to baptist churches for a while, but I was unfortunately taught that baptism was an outward expression of an inward act. Did anyone try to teach you this?

No, I was taught that in Pentecostal and Evangelical churches. I still have many friends from the Baptist churches I went to. Just to make sure, I called a couple of them tonight.
They haven't changed their minds.

 

[William Christopher]

@B-A-C Thanks. I'm really curious as to when this division became so prevalent. It certainly couldn't have been argued from the beginning of the church. You mentioned you were old. How long has this argument been around? I peeked around Google for a bit, and I can't even find anyone claiming that baptism is anything BUT an outward expression of an inward act of faith. I don't believe it, mind you, but this is another one of those times where the gate looks pretty narrow.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings
@RJ AND EVERYONE ELSE

Dear Brother and Brothers,
I thank you so very much for the Scripture you provided relating to Christ in Me the Hope of Glory. Most definitely. Thank you RJ!
and @RJ (and ALL) for the record, my being a Moderator, regardless of this thread and yours and my replies, is not an occasion for me to either be considered full-bottle on all Scripture or to consider myself as such (I think I can say the other Moderators would take the same view, not only of me but of themselves)
Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, Who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Regarding 'Faith alone', I am 100% about this, it is only through Faith alone that Grace can and does save us.
I am also 100% for Baptism (but not so keen on circumcision). To quote a Brother, Robert Evans in one of his songs, "If it's good enough for Jesus then it's surely good enough for me." Jesus was baptised.
Some might not like to hear this, but both sides are right (although at times we lose the love between ourselves that rebukes the world of it's sin and rebellion) and the only thing we now need to do is put Jesus Christ in the middle and worship Him, rather than leave Him outside while we argue about Him.

A couple of days ago a brother sent me a text asking if, at my convenience, I /he could make use of my sewing machine (modern tent making gadget) to sew a pocket. It was only about an 80millimeters long straight stitch needed. I was thinking today about it and when it could be fitted in and thought, "mmmmm 80mm, that's a bit over three inches."
We could possibly argue over this, he insisting it is about 80mm and me that it's a bit over 3 inches. Why would we do that? We could even fall out over it if we were stupid enough but guess what, we're both right!

It's 50 miles to DC... no it isn't, it's 80km!!! Let me see your map! Why, can't you read yours?!!
(km = kilometre)
then at 25 miles or 40 kms, We're half way there.. NO!! We're only got half the way to go!!! Get out of my bus, deceiver!!

Bible Study is fun, it's good for you and it is rewarding. Let us take the attitude of giving thanks, being humble and enjoying fellowship, edifying and being edified, for His Names sake, not our own. Does anyone here ever discover something really beautifully amazing in Scripture along the way to searching out other things? I do and I reckon it's one of the best things about being a Christian in this world, dicovering and seeing more and more of Jesus Christ, Son of Man, Son of God, the Living Word.
There are those who make doctrines and those who reject and are offended by such. Let us be neither, but let us love one another as He has loved us... and thereby be His disciples, for nobody is with Him unless they are one with Him and no matter what we do, if we do not have charity, the rest is a WASTE OF TIME.

Bless you and thank you for being patient with me.
Please don't take sides with or against me but follow Jesus, come unto Me, He said. Let's put aside everything else before we write any more on this thrashed out debate and do that, returning with minds and hearts and souls in love with Him, together dividing the word and enjoying the meal... there's always enough for everyone!


Bless you ....><>

Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how He had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

ps.. remember, you (we) can be totally right about something but,
without love......
(did anyone ever notice that the much quoted passage in 1Corinthians 13 -often used at weddings, etc!! - - that it is smack bang in the middle of 1Corinthians 12 and 1Corinthians 14 ? Might sound obvious, but go and read them and you'll see what I mean if you don't know already, and what the Apostle and the LORD meant when it was written ....><>)

pps... I was doing some carpentry today and I couldn't see the measurement too clearly: I saw it was over 22 inches and on the other side of the measuring tape there was a 7 (as in metric centimetres/metres) so I remembered that and did my cut at that length, 22 and the 7 combined - a perfect fit, using both sides of the measuring tape to get my rule. The only trouble I had was when I went to cut it, my sword saw wasn't cutting very well.
I told my brother (sewing job brother) about my measuring 'skill' and he admitted that he does the same -he's a good carpenter!)

 

[RJ]

It is my sincere wish that you further examine the scripture that you may believe in spirit and in truth, no matter what any man says.

I find this very odd and telling for two reasons:

• You use of, circumstantial ad hominem logical fallacy is a mighty impressive term but, in fact, your exercising this theorem yourself! Stating that I follow what man says is a presumed fallacy, when you have no knowledge or proof that I follow ANY man! In fact, go back to all of my previous posts on this subject and where I quoted anything but God's word!
• It is you that follow the works of man, not me! I stand firm on God's work alone and have stated such, and this belief requires nothing from man! If you believe in the requirement of water baptism for salvation, then you believe in, and trust in the person who presides over the ceremony, some one to make the baptismal, someone to find the water, someone to provide the clothing. Now, who is it that relies on, not only other men, but their works? Not to forget the work you must do yourself! And then, who is it here that relies solely on God alone but me?!

 

[RJ]

Regarding 'Faith alone', I am 100% about this, it is only through Faith alone that Grace can and does save us.
I am also 100% for Baptism (but not so keen on circumcision). To quote a Brother, Robert Evans in one of his songs, "If it's good enough for Jesus then it's surely good enough for me." Jesus was baptised.

Jesus was circumcised, does that fit into your song too?

 

[Redeemed11]

@B-A-C Thanks. I'm really curious as to when this division became so prevalent. It certainly couldn't have been argued from the beginning of the church. You mentioned you were old. How long has this argument been around? I peeked around Google for a bit, and I can't even find anyone claiming that baptism is anything BUT an outward expression of an inward act of faith. I don't believe it, mind you, but this is another one of those times where the gate looks pretty narrow.

Around where I live and where I've researched online and in books I haven't been able to find but one, a primitive baptist church (can't remember the name, it's been a while since I read the book). They believed in baptism for salvation (the bible view) up until very recently according to the book (published in 2005 I believe, I may again be completely wrong ). But I thank you for pointing out the ad hominem. We're very discouraged from using that kind of strategy in my debate class (we fail a debate grade if we do). I hope to hear from you in PM sometime soon, maybe, and we can talk about the view it sounds like we share.

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[Redeemed11]

I find this very odd and telling for two reasons:

• You use of, circumstantial ad hominem logical fallacy is a mighty impressive term but, in fact, your exercising this theorem yourself! Stating that I follow what man says is a presumed fallacy, when you have no knowledge or proof that I follow ANY man! In fact, go back to all of my previous posts on this subject and where I quoted anything but God's word!
• It is you that follow the works of man, not me! I stand firm on God's work alone and have stated such, and this belief requires nothing from man! If you believe in the requirement of water baptism for salvation, then you believe in, and trust in the person who presides over the ceremony, some one to make the baptismal, someone to find the water, someone to provide the clothing. Now, who is it that relies on, not only other men, but their works? Not to forget the work you must do yourself! And then, who is it here that relies solely on God alone but me?!

Dear RJ, if you stand so firm on God's work then why do you not stand firm on the basis of being baptized through faith? It is mentioned in Colossians 2:12 as being the work of God.