Circmscision vs. Baptism

[Redeemed11]

I find this very odd and telling for two reasons:

• You use of, circumstantial ad hominem logical fallacy is a mighty impressive term but, in fact, your exercising this theorem yourself! Stating that I follow what man says is a presumed fallacy, when you have no knowledge or proof that I follow ANY man! In fact, go back to all of my previous posts on this subject and where I quoted anything but God's word!
• It is you that follow the works of man, not me! I stand firm on God's work alone and have stated such, and this belief requires nothing from man! If you believe in the requirement of water baptism for salvation, then you believe in, and trust in the person who presides over the ceremony, some one to make the baptismal, someone to find the water, someone to provide the clothing. Now, who is it that relies on, not only other men, but their works? Not to forget the work you must do yourself! And then, who is it here that relies solely on God alone but me?!

Again, I know you don't like hearing from me, but you said you haven't quoted anything but God's word, yet you said that acts do not and can not save us. Where in God's word do we find this statement? You "called me out" (so to say) on James 2:22 and said that there was no scripture and I made it up... Now, obviously you didn't read it or you would have seen it in your Bible. I'm going to do the same now, in a kinder way: RJ, if what you say is true... And we are 1.) not saved by the things we do and 2.) saved by faith alone then do not hesitate any longer to provide the verse that says this, please. I know it is getting more and more confusing to everyone when you say you are only speaking the truth, yet have no truth to back up your statement. So now I say, either it is in the truth or there is no scripture and you or some other man made this idea up, not God. I think Br. Bear said it perfectly. It's both right! I believe I am saved by the grace of God. Like I have said, without it I cannot be saved. There is no salvation without Him. And through my faith I am also saved! That's what the verse says (as much as you may want to put two "alone"'s in there, they aren't there); through faith we are saved. I wouldn't dare go against the word of the LORD! Through my faith I am saved. And through my faith I repent, confess, and am baptized. Then, I have done all that God has commanded me. And can say that I am just an undeserving servant. So, either it's in God's word, or it isn't. Either it's from God, or it's from man. You have been saying over and over that this is what God says and what He wants... but He doesn't say it in His word? I just don't see how anyone can believe something that isn't in the Bible.

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[RJ]

Dear RJ, if you stand so firm on God's work then why do you not stand firm on the basis of being baptized through faith? It is mentioned in Colossians 2:12 as being the work of God.

Dear Redeemed, I previously and respectfully, asked and thought we agreed to "agree to disagree" on this subject. I would appreciate that you just move on!:thumbsup:

 

[RJ]

Again, I know you don't like hearing from me, but you said you haven't quoted anything but God's word, yet you said that acts do not and can not save us. Where in God's word do we find this statement? You "called me out" (so to say) on James 2:22 and said that there was no scripture and I made it up... Now, obviously you didn't read it or you would have seen it in your Bible. I'm going to do the same now, in a kinder way: RJ, if what you say is true... And we are 1.) not saved by the things we do and 2.) saved by faith alone then do not hesitate any longer to provide the verse that says this, please. I know it is getting more and more confusing to everyone when you say you are only speaking the truth, yet have no truth to back up your statement. So now I say, either it is in the truth or there is no scripture and you or some other man made this idea up, not God. I think Br. Bear said it perfectly. It's both right! I believe I am saved by the grace of God. Like I have said, without it I cannot be saved. There is no salvation without Him. And through my faith I am also saved! That's what the verse says (as much as you may want to put two "alone"'s in there, they aren't there); through faith we are saved. I wouldn't dare go against the word of the LORD! Through my faith I am saved. And through my faith I repent, confess, and am baptized. Then, I have done all that God has commanded me. And can say that I am just an undeserving servant. So, either it's in God's word, or it isn't. Either it's from God, or it's from man. You have been saying over and over that this is what God says and what He wants... but He doesn't say it in His word? I just don't see how anyone can believe something that isn't in the Bible.

In hope and love,
Jacob

I will say this again!

Dear Redeemed, I previously and respectfully, asked and thought we agreed to "agree to disagree" on this subject. I would appreciate that you just move on!:thumbsup:

 

[Redeemed11]

I will say this again!

Sir, I have yet to "agree to disagree." I do not intend to agree on any kind of man-made doctrine. I will agree on the truth, and I will defend the truth. Why will you answer the others that have come along and not my question now? If there is something to be learned, I would like to learn it; but only if it is coming from the Bible. I had hoped you felt the same way, but seeing as how I have presented a great portion of scripture and you still deny it, I cannot say I see you feeling that way. I apologize if that was offensive, sir, it is only what I have perceived and not an accusation. You say you defend the truth, I say I defend the truth, but you have yet to put forth truth for your 2 main points. Please provide a verse or verses if you could. If you choose not to respond I understand, it will not stop me from trying to interject the truth when I see an opportunity or trying to expose false teachings using the Bible. To add to the verses about false teachers I had given previously I'll say this: Ephesians 5:11 "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them."

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[RJ]

Sir, I have yet to "agree to disagree." I do not intend to agree on any kind of man-made doctrine. I will agree on the truth, and I will defend the truth. Why will you answer the others that have come along and not my question now? If there is something to be learned, I would like to learn it; but only if it is coming from the Bible. I had hoped you felt the same way, but seeing as how I have presented a great portion of scripture and you still deny it, I cannot say I see you feeling that way. I apologize if that was offensive, sir, it is only what I have perceived and not an accusation. You say you defend the truth, I say I defend the truth, but you have yet to put forth truth for your 2 main points. Please provide a verse or verses if you could. If you choose not to respond I understand, it will not stop me from trying to interject the truth when I see an opportunity or trying to expose false teachings using the Bible. To add to the verses about false teachers I had given previously I'll say this: Ephesians 5:11 "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them."

Spoken like a True Christian ....this is my final good bye young man!

 

[Chad]

Again, I know you don't like hearing from me, but you said you haven't quoted anything but God's word, yet you said that acts do not and can not save us. Where in God's word do we find this statement?

Scripture is very clear on this.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

The "works" after being saved is a result of the Holy Sprit living inside the born-again believer, "working" in fruitful ways to benefit the kingdom. It has nothing to do with saving us.

Don't twist Scripture.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Dear RJ, if you stand so firm on God's work then why do you not stand firm on the basis of being baptized through faith? It is mentioned in Colossians 2:12 as being the work of God.

Colossians 2:12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

I interpret this verse as saying God already baptized us in Christ.
The verse is saying God himself already immersed you in Christ and rose you up.
Through God's gift of faith I can see that I was there and that it was done by God and not me.

Don't get all caught up in a translated word.
It means "to immerse".
Think about it,how are we supposed to baptize a nation?
Is that what this global warming thing is about?
Are we going to force them?
We are not ISIS

No we immerse them in the love,truth and the grace of God and tell them God already raised them up in Christ.

 

[RJ]

No we immerse them in the love,truth and the grace of God and tell them God already raised them up in Christ.

He has done all this himself and further more, by his work alone, He seated us in the heavens with Christ!
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:6

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

He has done all this himself and further more, by his work alone, He seated us in the heavens with Christ!
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 2:6

I was thinking about the reality of Eph.ch 2-- and I just got all exited-it is real-more real than what my five senses can handle
Let every man be a liar,let God be true.
The immersion that baptism symbolizes is ,I think an immersion into the reality of the world which is so far above my earthy senses.
Death,burial and resurrection.We were dead,God buried us with Christ and raised us in him.
We are missing so much by making the whole thing about what happens after you die.
Why worry about what happens after you die?Why not believe God that you already died and you can live the resurrection now.

God's reality is the only permanent reality.
A modern car has more than 20 sensors to navigate in this temporary reality.
That's 20 ways to see reality and we have only five.
A car has a better grasp of reality than we do.
The Holy Spirit equips us to see reality through God's word.

 

[RJ]

I get a little giddy myself, especially when I think he is so perfectly magnificent that He did all this at the foundation of the world! What joy!

 

[Redeemed11]

Scripture is very clear on this.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

The "works" after being saved is a result of the Holy Sprit living inside the born-again believer, "working" in fruitful ways to benefit the kingdom. It has nothing to do with saving us.

Don't twist Scripture.

Hey Chad! This is my first time having an encounter with you very nice to meet you! But I am not trying to twist scripture. Mosty I've just put it out there. I just want to know how we are to save ourselves ( Acts 2:40 ), be doers of the word ( James 1:22 ), or obey the words of Jesus ( Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16 ) if things we do don't save us? I'm saying even faith is something we have to do ( John 6:28-29 ) and that through our faith we are saved, just like the verse says. And that it is through our faith that we are baptized ( Acts 8:37 ) because only one who believes can be baptized. Romans 10:10 states that confession saves us and 1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism saves us. How can things we do not save us if it says so right there? Meritorious works and works of the law don't saves us (as is stated in multiple verses) but it would be very in keeping with the Bible to say that these kind do.

In hope and love,
Jacob

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Hey Chad! This is my first time having an encounter with you very nice to meet you! But I am not trying to twist scripture. Mosty I've just put it out there. I just want to know how we are to save ourselves ( Acts 2:40 ), be doers of the word ( James 1:22 ), or obey the words of Jesus ( Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16 ) if things we do don't save us? I'm saying even faith is something we have to do ( John 6:28-29 ) and that through our faith we are saved, just like the verse says. And that it is through our faith that we are baptized ( Acts 8:37 ) because only one who believes can be baptized. Romans 10:10 states that confession saves us and 1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism saves us. How can things we do not save us if it says so right there? Meritorious works and works of the law don't saves us (as is stated in multiple verses) but it would be very in keeping with the Bible to say that these kind do.

I think Chad already answered your very intelligent questions.

The "works" after being saved is a result of the Holy Sprit living inside the born-again believer, "working" in fruitful ways to benefit the kingdom. It has nothing to do with saving us.

By grace (unmerited favor) you were given the gift of faith from God.
It means you can't boast that you did anything.
If you could do it then Jesus died for nothing.

You see if I said I had the faith I could go around beating people over the head and command them to have the faith.
If God gave me the faith to believe then I would know the way to lead people to Christ is by asking the Father to give them the faith to believe.
That way when it happens God gets the credit he so rightly deserves.

So if I fail to enjoy doing works then I have to wonder if I'm generating some kind of false faith in myself.
As Chad said,it's the Holy Spirit who enables true repentance and good works.

 

[William Christopher]

The gift of salvation is there for the entire world. The sins of the entire world are already forgiven. Christ's sacrifice was absolutely perfect. Choosing to act on what has been freely given doesn't save us; submission allows God to change our hearts and turn us into the citizens of His kingdom that He wants us to be.

If you're terrified at the prospect that there are consequences for a life not in submission to Christ, GOOD! The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Look at Hebrews 10:26-27. Does this warning exist for no one? Look at the back half of 2 Peter 2. If after they escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, AND OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Questioning the purpose of baptism proves a fundamental misunderstanding of the gift of salvation itself, not baptism. We, through the salvation of our Lord and Savior, have the potential to know REAL faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly love, and charity. Unfeigned love of the brethren. Anyone, with or without the Holy Spirit, can go through the motions just because they're afraid, and rightfully so. Feigned love, in speech or in action, not only brings no pleasure to God, but when our lives are judged at the end, those feigned behaviors will be burned up and we will be put to shame. The difference is being truly conformed in our hearts to our God. Suggesting salvation is merely fire insurance is a disgusting perversion. Say all you want about me, accuse me of twisting the scripture or presenting some flaw or fallacy in my argument if you so desire, but if you ask God to reveal the truth to you, the WHOLE truth, you'll learn that this is it.

 

[William Christopher]

Oh, and if this is the last thing I'm ever allowed to say on TJ due to permaban or something like that, I would like to say that I'm thankful for every last one of you. None of my beliefs would be as sharpened as they are right now without the fellowship of this forum. I would not even be a real Christian without the encouragement to obey I have been given by this community in the little over a week I've been here. I'm still a really rough little child, and God knows it's going to take a lot more discipline before I'm where he wants me to be, but for the first time in my life, I can rest easy while trusting in Him. Each and every one of you, directly or indirectly, has a hand in that, and in turn, everything God does through my life from here on out. We're a body.


The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

[RJ]

Oh, and if this is the last thing I'm ever allowed to say on TJ due to permaban or something like that

Why would that happen?

 

[William Christopher]

Why would that happen?

Oh, I don't know, dissenting opinion, Mr. Moderator?

I guess with all of this back and forth I just expected what I had to say to get attacked.

 

[RJ]

Oh, I don't know, dissenting opinion, Mr. Moderator?

I guess with all of this back and forth I just expected what I had to say to get attacked.

• Well, I can't speak for any of the moderators, but it is my impression that they are concerned about truth teaching at T.J.
• I would say, if you always speak the truth, there is nothing to worry about!
• I started a recent poll for this exact purpose, for searching out what others thought of about a truth.
• The poll was about salvation by grace alone or salvation by grace plus works.
• I have no way of knowing if or how you voted in the poll, but I think it is important to note, that the last I looked, the poll was a 100 % of 7 people in favor of salvation by grace alone.
• I would add, that I think this a significant 7 out of 7, especially with polling here at TJ being very unique. That is not 7 from the same church, city or state but 7 from all over the country.
• You may very well have your theology based how you have been taught, read the Bible, or otherwise feel you are correct, but I would think the result would hopefully give you pause to rethink your position!:thumbsup: God Bless

 

[William Christopher]

@RJ I'm grateful for you, and I think you're a source of incredible inspiration and encouragement in this community. We're a body, and you exhort us in a way that I don't believe myself gifted to.

That being said, I have my concerns about your position. As far as a step by step analysis of the components of your belief, I cannot actually spot an inherent flaw, and for all I know, maybe the level of faith you're working with is more pleasing to the Lord than any of what I perceive to be correct knowledge on the subject. It's been my personal experience that such a fixation on a key element pertaining to doctrine causes the big picture to come out of focus. That can be a stumbling block; maybe not for you, maybe not for this community at large, but it is clearly a stumbling block to some here... and a point of division.

I believe that you are right, but only partially so.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Yes, Ephesians is clear: saved by grace through faith. Whether or not we are recipients of that freely given grace, however, is our choice.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

The faith is worthless if we fail to act upon it. This is why we are given examples of faith and how it is the key to justification, or to be made righteous in the eyes of God:

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all... ...yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.…

In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Thus Jesus's own words:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Nothing about salvation through grace is conditional. Your choice, whether or not to act upon the faith which God has given you, will either allow God to attribute's Christ's righteousness to you (justify you) or damn you.

 

[William Christopher]

Verses supporting justification, also referred to as imputed righteousness:

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith

For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous

Again, salvation is not fire insurance. It is the most brilliant and perfect plan ever created, flawlessly blending perfect and eternal grace with perfect and eternal justice. All praise and honor to Him.

 

[RJ]

That being said, I have my concerns about your position. As far as a step by step analysis of the components of your belief, I cannot actually spot an inherent flaw, and for all I know, maybe the level of faith you're working with is more pleasing to the Lord than any of what I perceive to be correct knowledge on the subject. It's been my personal experience that such a fixation on a key element pertaining to doctrine causes the big picture to come out of focus. That can be a stumbling block; maybe not for you, maybe not for this community at large, but it is clearly a stumbling block to some here... and a point of division.

• We could go on, back and forth forever. You have your verses, which plainly tell me you don't understand, and I have verses that you see differently. We certainly don't agree on the foundation of salvation , nor do we agree on how to appropriately interpret justification. I offer that the majority here agrees with me and you feel it is a stumbling block for the rest of us.
• You may have a friend here, Redeemed11. He shares your view. There has been always been a standard here at TJs that when two come to a cross road of disagreement, they "agree to disagree" and move on. I offered that to Redeemed and he openly refused. More important to me than that, it is Redeemed's contention that I was , therefore not saved. I never said or intimated, not once, that with his belief in water baptism, that he was not saved! Nevertheless, he appeared quite prideful (boasting, as apposed to Ephesians 2, as well) and would not "agree to disagree"!
• So, I come to this cross road with you and now ask you to agree to disagree and move on!
• You too, may refuse this offer but hopefully can at least agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior!