Contemporary Judaizers

[james1523]

Hello James.

I was reading your post to Barny and you said the following.

Jesus was sent firstly to the Jews!

The Israelites that Jesus spoke to in this Gospel were subject to the Old Covenant
of Mt Sinai. Israel was a theocracy governed by God Himself, no other nation was
governed by God, James. Jews were the chosen people of God, their nation was a
unique nation with a divine legal system. Israel was given the seat of Moses, Israel
was given the Covenants. Israel had the Temple and the Levitical Priesthhood.

Israel was blessed and protected by God, Israel had defined borders. Israel had a
history stretching far back into ancient history. Israel had the Ark of the Covenant,
Israel had been released from Egyptian captivity. Israel celebrated numerous
festivals and feasts. Israel had prophets to warn and to reveal God's plans.
No other Gentile nation had any of the involvement that God had with Israel.

To place yourself under the Old Covenant by selecting a number of laws to follow
from the Jewish legal system. Is not something I would recommend you do James.
As far as I am concerned, to attempt to obey one of the laws requires that all the
laws are obeyed. Because the law is bound into the Covenant, Law and the Old Covenant
are in the same deal.

I have read about the Old Covenant in the books of Exodus and Leviticus. If I am not
wrong, I distinctly remember that one needs to be circumcised in order to enter into this
Covenant with God. Did not a Gentile need to be circumcised to be considered a member
of Abraham's clan?

James you were never raised under the Old Covenant. You were not raised under the
law of Moses either. Why would a Gentile want to become a member of the Jewish
nation?

Only a number of those laws were related to Israel as a nation. A number also apply to gentiles also. God's moral law applies to everyone. Both Jew and Gentile must keep commandments in order to enter life.

God's moral laws which predate the law of Moses apply to all gentiles, under the covenant God established with Noah.

Just because Gentiles were not God's chosen people, does not mean God was not God of all the peoples on the earth, and does not mean God does not have laws for them too. Romans 1 say the gentiles are without excuse - you cannot say that because they are not under Moses they are not under any laws.

But when we come to Christ, Christians become Jews inwardly, so therefore all Christians are true Jews:
Rom 2:29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law.

 

[Barny]

Unfortunately, James, you have not addressed your doctrinal contradictions that I raised with you.

You believe Christians cannot sin. I believe Christians can keep the law perfectly. We both believe the same thing on this point. You just haven't realized that when John says Christians cannot sin, he means they can keep the law perfectly, because sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4). You take issue with those who say they can keep the law perfectly, but you also say that Christians cannot sin - this seems a bit contradictory. If Christians cannot sin, it means they cannot break God's law.

Here's a brief outline to explain how Christians cannot sin.

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No! Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9
And where there is no law there is no transgression/sin, Rom 4:15.

How is it that Christians are righteous without being under the law of righteousness?
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
As our faith is counted for righteousness and therefore Christians are not under the law for righteousness, who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of those God has justified? Rom 8:33. Clearly sin cannot be charged against Christians as God has justified us. Clearly sin/transgression of the law, cannot be charged against us as we're not under the law and we all know that whatever the law says it says to those under it.

This outline above supports the gospel of grace. Here we see scripture confirming scripture, clearly showing how it is that Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law. Hence there is no contradiction, as you try to allege.

Now, let's consider the doctrine of contradiction that you preach.
Perfect obedience to the law is required to enter into eternal life. Without perfect obedience to the law one is a "servant of sin" (John 8:34.), and is "of the devil" (1John 3:8).
So we see that those nearing physical death need not even bother to receive Jesus as they will not have any perfect works of the law to attain eternal life.Simply they are of the devil.
Also, anyone professing to know Christ is of the devil until they can consistently maintain perfect obedience to the law. This all contradicts the gospel of grace.

Another contradiction is the likes of you, James. You say you cannot sin because you obey the law perfectly, but then this contradicts scripture which says that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us,1John 1:8 . So we see according to the doctrine you follow, James, that you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you.

As only past sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3:25.) you still haven't explained how any future sin is dealt with. You suggested that God has some limited forgiveness to offer to Christians in their path towards attaining perfect obedience to the law.
How is this future sin dealt with, considering that the cross only remitted past sin.?
And what are the limits to God's forgiveness, that your doctrine refers to?

Jesus said if we want to enter life we need to keep the commandments (Matt 19:17). Why are you ignoring the words directly from Christ's mouth?

Jesus said this before the cross.
Note Matt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The law is just, good, holy, Rom 7:12. The law is the principles of God. And our inward man (Christ) delights after the law (Rom 7:22).
But under the law the whole world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.
Mankind needed a savior. Hence we see the gospel of grace offered to mankind. Now it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, instead of works of the law.

We can't really understand what faith in Christ or love for Christ is unless we see it is connected to obedience to God's law.
Your doctrine says that faith is believing Jesus is Lord (even demons believe that), but there is no law to keep so you can live your life however you want

Actually scripture does not say that the demons believe Jesus is their Lord.
Note James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
.
As for what commandments Christians obey, see 1John 3:22,23.
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Regarding your allegation that without the law (which includes the 10 commandments) Christians would live selfishly in debauchery, this is unfounded. In fact it's a very common allegation that legalists throw out.

What is knowing Christ? To know Christ is to keep His commandments: 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments

.

And his commandments are?
1John 3:22,23.
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

If you say that Christians cannot keep the law perfectly, you are saying that 1) Christ didn't keep the law perfectly, because Christ is now our righteousness 2) the problem which prevented Christians keeping the law has not been dealt with 3) God has not given us His Spirit to give us the power to keep His law.

Your allegation 1: This makes no sense.
Your allegation 2: It has been dealt with. It was crucified with Christ (by faith). Our life is now hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
Your allegation 3: Here you are pushing your lukewarm doctrine of mixing works of the law with grace. This is not supported in scripture.

Regarding physical evidence, is there any other kind of evidence except physical? How about you show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by works. James 2:14-26 says that without works, you are foolish, your faith is useless, and your faith is dead. An idea of spiritual evidence or "no evidence required" is completely wrong

.

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Christians walk by faith.
Sadly, those under the doctrine you follow seem to reject walking by faith.
I already showed a few posts ago, with scripture confirming scripture, how God describes those who are spiritually naked, spiritually hungry, etc. But you deny this to your loss. Your focus is limited to the physical only, centering on the law for righteousness. The Pharisees tried a very similar path to you and they did not attain righteousness, Rom 9:32. Sadly, legalists stumble at the stumbling stone.

 

[RJ]

Originally Posted by james1523 You believe Christians cannot sin. I believe Christians can keep the law perfectly. We both believe the same thing on this point. You just haven't realized that when John says Christians cannot sin, he means they can keep the law perfectly, because sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4). You take issue with those who say they can keep the law perfectly, but you also say that Christians cannot sin - this seems a bit contradictory. If Christians cannot sin, it means they cannot break God's law.

The scriptures tell me to look at it a different way:

• We are still sinful...I will only use one of many scriptures here: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12....Some Bibles say when the "imperfection leaves" and the "perfection comes". We are not perfected yet, not until we die our physical death and God glorifies us in his presence.
• Until that time we are still sinful to varying degrees ( we are all different) but Paul says: Romans 8:1
• We are not capable of keeping all the law. Just because Christ is in use doesn't mean that we are now void of failure, we are still human and imperfect: James 2:10

 

[DHC]

Originally Posted by james1523 You believe Christians cannot sin. I believe Christians can keep the law perfectly. We both believe the same thing on this point. You just haven't realized that when John says Christians cannot sin, he means they can keep the law perfectly, because sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4). You take issue with those who say they can keep the law perfectly, but you also say that Christians cannot sin - this seems a bit contradictory. If Christians cannot sin, it means they cannot break God's law.

The scriptures tell me to look at it a different way:

• We are still sinful...I will only use one of many scriptures here: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12....Some Bibles say when the "imperfection leaves" and the "perfection comes". We are not perfected yet, not until we die our physical death and God glorifies us in his presence.
• Until that time we are still sinful to varying degrees ( we are all different) but Paul says: Romans 8:1
• We are not capable of keeping all the law. Just because Christ is in use doesn't mean that we are now void of failure, we are still human and imperfect: James 2:10

Hello RJ.

I noticed the same contradiction but was not going to draw attention to it.
James is a very polite fellow and I was more interested in showing some respect.
Though I do agree with you and James needs to attend to this post of his.

 

[james1523]

Originally Posted by james1523 You believe Christians cannot sin. I believe Christians can keep the law perfectly. We both believe the same thing on this point. You just haven't realized that when John says Christians cannot sin, he means they can keep the law perfectly, because sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4). You take issue with those who say they can keep the law perfectly, but you also say that Christians cannot sin - this seems a bit contradictory. If Christians cannot sin, it means they cannot break God's law.

The scriptures tell me to look at it a different way:

We are still sinful...I will only use one of many scriptures here: 1 Corinthians 13:8-12....Some Bibles say when the "imperfection leaves" and the "perfection comes". We are not perfected yet, not until we die our physical death and God glorifies us in his presence.
Until that time we are still sinful to varying degrees ( we are all different) but Paul says: Romans 8:1
We are not capable of keeping all the law. Just because Christ is in use doesn't mean that we are now void of failure, we are still human and imperfect: James 2:10

We still have sin indwelling in our members, yes. We are still capable of sin. But if we live and walk in the Spirit, we will not be in sin. Barny believes Christians cannot sin, but cannot keep the law. I believe Christians can still sin, but can keep the law, not by our own strength, but by the law of the Spirit within us.
If we don't have perfect righteousness we cannot enter Heaven. We have perfect righteousness because of Christ "our righteousness" in us as the Spirit, who fulfilled the law perfectly.
For example in the last 5 minutes I have not murdered anyone, I have not hated, I have not lusted, I have kept the law perfectly (as far as is known to me). It is possible to be blameless before God, as was the parents of John the baptist. They were blameless, yet not incapable of sin.

 

[james1523]

Here's a brief outline to explain how Christians cannot sin.

Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No! Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1 Tim 1:9
And where there is no law there is no transgression/sin, Rom 4:15.

How is it that Christians are righteous without being under the law of righteousness?
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
As our faith is counted for righteousness and therefore Christians are not under the law for righteousness, who shall lay ANY THING to the charge of those God has justified? Rom 8:33. Clearly sin cannot be charged against Christians as God has justified us. Clearly sin/transgression of the law, cannot be charged against us as we're not under the law and we all know that whatever the law says it says to those under it.

This outline above supports the gospel of grace. Here we see scripture confirming scripture, clearly showing how it is that Christians cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law. Hence there is no contradiction, as you try to allege.

Now, let's consider the doctrine of contradiction that you preach.
Perfect obedience to the law is required to enter into eternal life. Without perfect obedience to the law one is a "servant of sin" (John 8:34.), and is "of the devil" (1 John 3:8.
So we see that those nearing physical death need not even bother to receive Jesus as they will not have any perfect works of the law to attain eternal life.Simply they are of the devil.
Also, anyone professing to know Christ is of the devil until they can consistently maintain perfect obedience to the law. This all contradicts the gospel of grace.

Another contradiction is the likes of you, James. You say you cannot sin because you obey the law perfectly, but then this contradicts scripture which says that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us,1 John 1:8 So we see according to the doctrine you follow, James, that you are deceiving yourself and the truth is not in you.

As only past sin was remitted at the cross (Rom 3:25.) you still haven't explained how any future sin is dealt with. You suggested that God has some limited forgiveness to offer to Christians in their path towards attaining perfect obedience to the law.
How is this future sin dealt with, considering that the cross only remitted past sin.?
And what are the limits to God's forgiveness, that your doctrine refers to?

Our faith is counted for righteousness, and what is faith? Faith is belief in action, which is obedience to the moral law, or the law of the Spirit, or the law of Christ. James 2:24 "you see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." Hebrews 11 says faith is evidence of things not seen, and then we are given countless examples of things people did by their faith. Faith is evidence, faith has something to show. Scripture also says righteousness is not by faith alone but by what we do. Who will you believe? James the brother of Jesus, or Paul the apostle to the gentiles?

Christians are not under law, does not mean without law, without law is lawlessness. It means not under the law of Moses, the written law. We now have Christ who fulfilled the law perfectly, living in us, and now we live by the law of the Spirit, and obtain a righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisees.
There would be no need for confession (1 John 1:9) if we could not sin.
None of Jesus's messages to the churches (believers) in Revelation would make sense, if Christians could not sin, such as Jesus calling a church to repent, in Rev 2:16.
Jesus would not have taught us to pray "forgive us our trespasses..." in the Lord's prayer, if we could not sin.
I'm not claiming we cannot sin, that is you. I'm saying we can keep the law perfectly, but when we don't, we sin, and we can confess our sins and be forgiven.
Your doctrine claims that Christians cannot sin, and yet somehow cannot keep the law?
By teaching others that the law is not important, you are effectively sending yourself to a lowly position in the kingdom of heaven (Matt 5:19).
By teaching others that they cannot sin, you are promoting self-deception (1 John 1:8).

Jesus said this before the cross.
Note Matt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The law is just, good, holy, Rom 7:12. The law is the principles of God. And our inward man (Christ) delights after the law (Rom 7:22).
But under the law the whole world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.
Mankind needed a savior. Hence we see the gospel of grace offered to mankind. Now it's our faith that is counted for righteousness, instead of works of the law.

John 11:25 "..The one who believes in me will live.." - Jesus said this before the cross too.. so what?
Faith is counted for righteousness, which is shown by obedience to the law.
Faith without obedience to the law, which is God's will, is not faith at all (see James), and is called lawlessness (Matt 7:21).

Actually scripture does not say that the demons believe Jesus is their Lord.
Note James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
.
As for what commandments Christians obey, see 1 John 3:22, 23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Regarding your allegation that without the law (which includes the 10 commandments) Christians would live selfishly in debauchery, this is unfounded. In fact it's a very common allegation that legalists throw out.

1 John 3:22,33 says commandments "His commandments".. but belief in Jesus is but one of these commandments "His commandment".
Demons called Jesus the Son of God - Matt 8. I think that's what I meant .

Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Christians walk by faith.
Sadly, those under the doctrine you follow seem to reject walking by faith.
I already showed a few posts ago, with scripture confirming scripture, how God describes those who are spiritually naked, spiritually hungry, etc. But you deny this to your loss. Your focus is limited to the physical only, centering on the law for righteousness. The Pharisees tried a very similar path to you and they did not attain righteousness, Rom 9:32. Sadly, legalists stumble at the stumbling stone.

Please consider the whole chapter Hebrews 11, it is always "by faith they did.....". A faith walk is doing something by faith. As Hebrews 11:1 says, faith has substance and faith has evidence.
You don't seem to understand what faith is. Mark 2:5 Jesus saw their faith. True faith has something which is seen. True spirituality does not deny the physical, just as Jesus Christ was both the Son of God and Son of Man, yet was and is the most spiritual person ever. You show me your so-called "faith walk" (and the word walk implies action, doing something) without works, I will show you my faith walk by my works.
True Christianity does things by faith. Judaizing is to do things without faith, and false Christianity has only faith and does nothing. We are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24), and this is just as much scripture as any other book of the Bible.

 

[Barny]

Our faith is counted for righteousness, and what is faith? Faith is belief in action, which is obedience to the moral law, or the law of the Spirit, or the law of Christ. James 2:24 "you see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." Hebrews 11 says faith is evidence of things not seen, and then we are given countless examples of things people did by their faith. Faith is evidence, faith has something to show. Scripture also says righteousness is not by faith alone but by what we do

Making claims without scripture to support it does not make it true. You claim that obedience to the law is works that shows our faith, but then have no scripture to support this.

Sadly, you ignore the scripture that tells us what our works are.
John 6:29
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

This is consistent with the gospel of grace, John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

It is consistent with the will of God, John 6:40.
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is no mention of obedience to the law anywhere in the gospel message.

In fact scripture tells us specifically not to mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Gal 2:16.
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

You might want to reconsider the error doctrine you follow, as scripture clearly contradicts it.

.

Who will you believe? James the brother of Jesus, or Paul the apostle to the gentiles?

Can you explain yourself here? Are you saying James and Paul contradict each other?

Christians are not under law, does not mean without law, without law is lawlessness

What is lawlessness?
1. Unrestrained by law; unruly: a lawless mob.
2. Contrary to the law; unlawful: the lawless slaughter of....
3. Not governed by law:We see here a few varying definitions.
But you are focusing on the wrong definition, thinking that "lawlessness" (as spoken about in 1John 3:4.) is being without the law (definition 3: not governed by law).

Instead we see Bible versions defining sin as "transgression of the law" or "lawlessness". Both are the same meaning. They both fit definition 2: "Contrary to the law; unlawful". And the law applies only to those who are under it. For example, the laws of Saudi Arabia does not apply to you, James. You cannot be charged with "lawlessness" by Saudi Arabia if you reject Islam as the false religion that it is.

So all those scriptures which say that Christians are not under the law are also saying that we cannot be charged with transgression of the law as we're not under the laws jurisdiction. Christians cannot be charged with transgression of the law/unrighteousness/sin because we are under the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness,2Cor 3:7. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

As for the law, consider Rom 3:19
we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law
And Rom 4:15.
where there is no law there is no transgression/SIN

None of Jesus's messages to the churches (believers) in Revelation would make sense, if Christians could not sin, such as Jesus calling a church to repent, in Rev 2:16.

Let's consider the Church you refer to in Rev 2:16
The church of Pergamos.
Rev 2:14-16.
But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

What is the stumbling block spoken of here?
It's the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law.

And what is the sexual immorality spoken of here?
It's sexual immorality with Hagar (symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

This is the same warning we see in 1Cor 5.Christians should not associate with anyone calling themselves a Christian brother, who preaches righteousness by works of the law.
1Cor 5. warns against this spiritual fornication with Hagar.
It also says to purge out the old leaven (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law, Matt 16:12).
Gal 5:9.
A little leaven, leavens the whole lump"

God does not want any Christian to tolerate any doctrines (leaven) that preaches righteousness by works of the law. Christians can potentially be corrupted by such a stumbling block. And it is this tolerance of those preaching works of the law, that the church of Pergamos is asked to repent of.

I'm not claiming we cannot sin, that is you. I'm saying we can keep the law perfectly, but when we don't, we sin, and we can confess our sins and be forgiven.

James, you are under the law and you have claimed that you keep it perfectly. This is a claim that you don't sin. In fact you even claim we all have to attain this same sinlessness that you claim you have, in order to enter into eternal life.

But your claim of sinlessness contradicts your understanding of 1John 1:8.
Thus we see in your use of this scripture, that it therefore says that you deceive yourself and do not the truth.

Your doctrine claims that Christians cannot sin, and yet somehow cannot keep the law?

As I said before, Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Therefore we cannot be charged with it's transgression/Sin.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We've been justified by God.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing(this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

You have no scripture to support your continual rejection of this scripture above.

Faith is counted for righteousness, which is shown by obedience to the law.
Faith without obedience to the law, which is God's will, is not faith at all (see James), and is called lawlessness (Matt 7:21)

.

You misunderstand your quote of Matt 7:21.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

What is His will?
John 6:40
this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This contradicts your claim that it refers to works of the law.

Please consider the whole chapter Hebrews 11, it is always "by faith they did.....". A faith walk is doing something by faith. As Hebrews 11:1 says, faith has substance and faith has evidence.
You don't seem to understand what faith is. Mark 2:5 Jesus saw their faith. True faith has something which is seen. True spirituality does not deny the physical, just as Jesus Christ was both the Son of God and Son of Man, yet was and is the most spiritual person ever. You show me your so-called "faith walk" (and the word walk implies action, doing something) without works, I will show you my faith walk by my works.
True Christianity does things by faith. Judaizing is to do things without faith, and false Christianity has only faith and does nothing. We are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24), and this is just as much scripture as any other book of the Bible.

Heb 11:1,2
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony

The scriptures I've shared above all point to our works that shows our faith, which is to believe on Jesus. And in believing on Jesus we obtain a good testimony. In believing on Jesus we obey God's will.

But those who mix works of the law with grace are showing by their works that they 're in unbelief. They see Christ's sacrifice as being insufficient when they preach that works of the law must be added to grace. See Heb 10:26.

Scripture gives many warnings against mixing grace with works of the law.
Anyone following the lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace, must repent, Rev 3:19.

 

[RJ]

We still have sin indwelling in our members, yes. We are still capable of sin. But if we live and walk in the Spirit, we will not be in sin. Barny believes Christians cannot sin, but cannot keep the law. I believe Christians can still sin, but can keep the law, not by our own strength, but by the law of the Spirit within us.
If we don't have perfect righteousness we cannot enter Heaven. We have perfect righteousness because of Christ "our righteousness" in us as the Spirit, who fulfilled the law perfectly.
For example in the last 5 minutes I have not murdered anyone, I have not hated, I have not lusted, I have kept the law perfectly (as far as is known to me). It is possible to be blameless before God, as was the parents of John the baptist. They were blameless, yet not incapable of sin.

"If we don't have perfect righteousness we cannot enter Heaven. We have perfect righteousness because of Christ "our righteousness" in us as the Spirit, who fulfilled the law perfectly."

• James,I know you love the Lord and you are a dedicated person to your type of theology but, for me, I can only point out what I consider a flaw in your thinking that supports some of your beliefs. Maybe you're saying the same thing but I see a major conflict. From your above statement, what you say is true; yes with out being blameless, holy and righteous, we can not enter heaven. But we are not perfect yet and these are not our values but Christ's, in us, alone. It is part of grace, the free gift of perfection in us but not us; we are still imperfect. We, personaly, can no more be perfectly righteous right now as we could keep the law perfectly all the time. Jesus can do or is all of these things perfectly, we are not.
• Our actions, at times, can be perfect but that is not enough. For us to be totally righteous, we would have to be perfect in all elements of God's requirements 24/7 which we are not capable but, one day, we will be. As long as we are alive, we will make mistakes that, any one of wich, will render us guilty of failing all of God's requirements for righteousness.
• The "Good News" by God's grace alone, when we die and come before him with all our faults,God will look at us and only see the righteousness of his son in us.
• It is all of Jesus Christ and none of us until that day.

 

[james1523]

"If we don't have perfect righteousness we cannot enter Heaven. We have perfect righteousness because of Christ "our righteousness" in us as the Spirit, who fulfilled the law perfectly."

James,I know you love the Lord and you are a dedicated person to your type of theology but, for me, I can only point out what I consider a flaw in your thinking that supports some of your beliefs. Maybe you're saying the same thing but I see a major conflict. From your above statement, what you say is true; yes with out being blameless, holy and righteous, we can not enter heaven. But we are not perfect yet and these are not our values but Christ's, in us, alone. It is part of grace, the free gift of perfection in us but not us; we are still imperfect. We, personaly, can no more be perfectly righteous right now as we could keep the law perfectly all the time. Jesus can do or is all of these things perfectly, we are not.
Our actions, at times, can be perfect but that is not enough. For us to be totally righteous, we would have to be perfect in all elements of God's requirements 24/7 which we are not capable but, one day, we will be. As long as we are alive, we will make mistakes that, any one of wich, will render us guilty of failing all of God's requirements for righteousness.
The "Good News" by God's grace alone, when we die and come before him with all our faults,God will look at us and only see the righteousness of his son in us.
It is all of Jesus Christ and none of us until that day.

You are right in that God is not interested in improving our fallen self. Instead, our old self is killed, crucified, with Christ, and our new self, is raised with Christ and now we must live in our new self, our new identity. But it is not about Him only or us only, it is actually Him and us joined together.
The Scripture teaches that we have been joined to the Lord through faith, and have become one spirit with Him:
1 Cor 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Our self has been crucified and we no longer live but Christ lives in and through us:
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

We can now do all things through Christ:
Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

So His abilities become our abilities, His nature becomes our nature. We are identified with His crucifixion and resurrection (Rom 6:5)...
but few seem able to accept the idea that we are also identified with Christ's perfect human living and His fulfillment of the law:
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The righteous requirement of the law is not fulfilled outside of us, but in us, by Christ, as we walk according to the Spirit of Christ.
The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us, because we are now joined to Christ who fulfilled the law perfectly.

In ourselves, we are not righteous, but in Christ we are righteous. Jesus becomes our righteousness:
1 Cor 1:30 Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God, our righteousness, our holiness, and our ransom from sin

The Spirit within us fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law through us when we walk in Him.
Romans 8:2 says For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

The idea that God doesn't see us and only sees Christ is not quite true. Firstly, God sees and knows all things (Heb 4:13). Secondly, because we are joined to Christ, He becomes our righteousness. So when God looks at us, He doesn't just see Christ and He doesn't just see us, He sees us, as a copy, an image of his Son Jesus. Thirdly, God also sees our righteousness because we must give account for our lives:
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
If God only saw Christ's righteousness and never saw our own, He could never judge us for the good or bad that we do, or the words that we say (Matt 12:36).

 

[RJ]

You are right in that God is not interested in improving our fallen self. Instead, our old self is killed, crucified, with Christ, and our new self, is raised with Christ and now we must live in our new self, our new identity. But it is not about Him only or us only, it is actually Him and us joined together.
The Scripture teaches that we have been joined to the Lord through faith, and have become one spirit with Him:
1 Cor 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Our self has been crucified and we no longer live but Christ lives in and through us:
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.

We can now do all things through Christ:
Phil 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

So His abilities become our abilities, His nature becomes our nature. We are identified with His crucifixion and resurrection (Rom 6:5)...
but few seem able to accept the idea that we are also identified with Christ's perfect human living and His fulfillment of the law:
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
The righteous requirement of the law is not fulfilled outside of us, but in us, by Christ, as we walk according to the Spirit of Christ.
The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us, because we are now joined to Christ who fulfilled the law perfectly.

In ourselves, we are not righteous, but in Christ we are righteous. Jesus becomes our righteousness:
1 Cor 1:30 Jesus has become our wisdom sent from God, our righteousness, our holiness, and our ransom from sin

The Spirit within us fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law through us when we walk in Him.
Romans 8:2 says For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

The idea that God doesn't see us and only sees Christ is not quite true. Firstly, God sees and knows all things (Heb 4:13). Secondly, because we are joined to Christ, He becomes our righteousness. So when God looks at us, He doesn't just see Christ and He doesn't just see us, He sees us, as a copy, an image of his Son Jesus. Thirdly, God also sees our righteousness because we must give account for our lives:
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
If God only saw Christ's righteousness and never saw our own, He could never judge us for the good or bad that we do, or the words that we say (Matt 12:36).

• You are right in that God is not interested in improving our fallen self Could you please show where I stated that?
• 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 ( we are not perfect yet)
• Romans 8:23 ( we only have the first fruits of the spirit at this point)
• Alas my brother, you are perfect and I am not and this is what separates our understanding.

 

[james1523]

• You are right in that God is not interested in improving our fallen self Could you please show where I stated that?
• 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 ( we are not perfect yet)
• Romans 8:23 ( we only have the first fruits of the spirit at this point)
• Alas my brother, you are perfect and I am not and this is what separates our understanding.

You said that here - "But we are not perfect yet and these are not our values but Christ's, in us, alone. It is part of grace, the free gift of perfection in us but not us; we are still imperfect. We, personaly, can no more be perfectly righteous right now as we could keep the law perfectly all the time. Jesus can do or is all of these things perfectly, we are not."

If you are not perfect how are you going to enter heaven?
1 Cor 6:8-10 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

What is the use of having been crucified with Christ , raised with Him and receiving the Spirit, if you are still in your sins?

 

[RJ]

You said that here - "But we are not perfect yet and these are not our values but Christ's, in us, alone. It is part of grace, the free gift of perfection in us but not us; we are still imperfect. We, personaly, can no more be perfectly righteous right now as we could keep the law perfectly all the time. Jesus can do or is all of these things perfectly, we are not."

If you are not perfect how are you going to enter heaven?
1 Cor 6:8-10 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

What is the use of having been crucified with Christ , raised with Him and receiving the Spirit, if you are still in your sins?

I gave you the verses: 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 and Romans 8:23 that have the answers to your questions but you either just disagree or you are not listening to what they say.

• If you are not perfect how are you going to enter heaven? James, I just don't know what else I can say from my perspective. Are you not ever negative, doubtful, arogant, prideful, etc., not even just a little...not just one time? Jesus died and paid the price for these sins as well and still does. You have Christ in you and you are in a progress toward perfection. When you die your physical, mortal death and with, Christ in you, He will perfect you, making you complete in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. In your now physical and mortal state, you only have the "first fruits" or a "foretaste" of what is to come.
• What is the use of having been crucified with Christ , raised with Him and receiving the Spirit, if you are still in your sins? In a spiritual sense, yes you have been regenerated and raised with Christ, in fact, spiritually, you are seated with him in heaven now. On a side not, this is one of the reasons that I believe in OSAS.
• But while also in this physical state, on this opposite side of the spiritual realm, you are still subject to the sin nature. Oh, you are a believer and you have a repentant heart, the unbeliever does not and the non-believer is not in a regenerated state. When a non-believer dies, he does not have Christ in him and is doomed for destruction.
• If you, right now, while still in this physical state, think you are perfect in this condition, you are subject to mistakes and if you think you must be perfect but eventually find yourself not, you are subject to error or doubt. This doubt is sinful and you are back to square one. God has set up his standard, not me and if you are going to be "perfect", you must be perfect everytime, every day, 24-7 or, if you fail in your perfection just once, you have failed in perfection completely.
• Look at 1 Corinthians 13: 4-6....right now, in your present state, can you do all these types of love 24-7....of course not...well, you sinful. I am not perfect and I fail some of these a lot and I am therefore also sinful!
• But there is hope for all of us who love the Lord: Romans 8:1

 

[james1523]

I gave you the verses: 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 and Romans 8:23 that have the answers to your questions but you either just disagree or you are not listening to what they say.

• If you are not perfect how are you going to enter heaven? James, I just don't know what else I can say from my perspective. Are you not ever negative, doubtful, arogant, prideful, etc., not even just a little...not just one time? Jesus died and paid the price for these sins as well and still does. You have Christ in you and you are in a progress toward perfection. When you die your physical, mortal death and with, Christ in you, He will perfect you, making you complete in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. In your now physical and mortal state, you only have the "first fruits" or a "foretaste" of what is to come.

I believe in Christ we are perfect. The spirit is now perfect, where the Spirit dwells. Yes the soul is not perfect, and will take some work, over a life time. Yes perfection of the body is something yet to come, that is true. What does it mean that "Jesus is our righteousness"? It is not my righteousness that gets me to heaven, but Christ's perfect righteousness. His righteousness is now my righteousness. Therefore I, in Christ, am perfect. It is not I by myself, or Christ by Himself, but "I in Christ". In Christ means to dwell and abide in Christ (John 15).

I know I can be perfect because Jesus said I must be perfect, and I know there are many perfect people in the Bible, I will list them below.
Matt 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect<wbr style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 10.40000057220459px;">.

• What is the use of having been crucified with Christ , raised with Him and receiving the Spirit, if you are still in your sins? In a spiritual sense, yes you have been regenerated and raised with Christ, in fact, spiritually, you are seated with him in heaven now. On a side not, this is one of the reasons that I believe in OSAS.
• But while also in this physical state, on this opposite side of the spiritual realm, you are still subject to the sin nature. Oh, you are a believer and you have a repentant heart, the unbeliever does not and the non-believer is not in a regenerated state. When a non-believer dies, he does not have Christ in him and is doomed for destruction.

Dying with Christ and being buried with Him through baptism (spiritual, water, or otherwise, we already debate this elsewhere ), means our sin nature is put to sleep. We still have it, but it's inactive. Now it has no power over us unless we let it. We must reckon ourselves dead to sin (Rom 6:11) and alive to God. If we are dead to sin, are we still sinners? Not unless we do actually sin, are we perfect? In some sense yes.

• If you, right now, while still in this physical state, think you are perfect in this condition, you are subject to mistakes and if you think you must be perfect but eventually find yourself not, you are subject to error or doubt. This doubt is sinful and you are back to square one. God has set up his standard, not me and if you are going to be "perfect", you must be perfect everytime, every day, 24-7 or, if you fail in your perfection just once, you have failed in perfection completely.
• Look at 1 Corinthians 13: 4-6....right now, in your present state, can you do all these types of love 24-7....of course not...well, you sinful. I am not perfect and I fail some of these a lot and I am therefore also sinful!
• But there is hope for all of us who love the Lord: Romans 8:1

Perfection can mean a few things. It can mean without sin, it can be blameless, it can mean unable to sin, it can mean complete. Sinful means full of sin. Sinless means without sin. Maybe we cannot be perfect in the sense of not being capable of sin, but we can be sinless, we can be without blame.

In accordance with typical protestant evangelical doctrine, probably you have been taught that Jesus was the only perfect person and that everyone on the earth except Christ is imperfect. I will show now that this is not true according to the Bible. Jesus was the only sinless person. But not the only perfect person. Job and Noah are two examples, and Psalm 37 says there are more perfect men, and James 3:2 tells us how to be a perfect man:

Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright..... (KJV).
Psalm 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace
James 3:2 And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.

Probably you have also been taught that we cannot be perfect without the Holy Spirit's help, and that we shouldn't even try to be perfect because it is impossible, right?
Well guess what? Job and Noah were able to be perfect, without being born again, without regeneration, and without the Holy Spirit, and so too those perfect men in Psalm 37:37, whoever they may be.

Now we can see that God's standard of perfection is not to be without the ability to sin, but to be blameless and upright in our generation.

Probably you have also been taught that no one can keep God's commands, it's impossible, they say. And that apart from Christ no one is righteous.
But Zechariah and Elizabeth were able to do it, to be righteous in God's sight, and observe all God's commands:
Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Hopefully now you can see that even people without the Holy spirit and regeneration were able to be righteous and blameless, perfect before God.

So now, that our old nature is crucified with Christ, and we have received the power of the Holy Spirit, will you still say you cannot be perfect ?

Or will you continue to believe in the doctrines of man, even religion (the bad kind), which want to keep you in bondage to sin, by convincing you that you are hopeless, you cannot be perfect, you cannot do anything, you are sinful, and hope that sometime in the future eg at death, God will make you perfect...despite the facts - we are crucified with Christ, we are raised with Him, we have received the Spirit of sonship, the Spirit of Christ. God doesn't just "declare" that we are righteous even though we are not, neither does He sprinkle fairy dust righteousness on us and now say we are righteous. When God looks at us , in Christ, we are as righteous and perfect as Christ Himself. For these reasons I believe we can be perfect, but not sinless.

 

[RJ]

James:

• What does it mean that "Jesus is our righteousness"? Just what it says, his righteousness through us...not our righteousness!
• In accordance with typical protestant evangelical doctrine, probably you have been taught that Jesus was the only perfect person and that everyone on the earth except Christ is imperfect. I will show now that this is not true according to the Bible. Jesus was the only sinless person. But not the only perfect person. Job and Noah are two examples, and Psalm 37 says there are more perfect men, and James 3:2 tells us how to be a perfect man:
  
  Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright..... (KJV).
  Psalm 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace
  James 3:2 And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
  Oh James, none of these verses say or mean perfect, you have inserted that term. Galatians 3:6 and James 2:21...like Abraham, God had imparted righteous on these men. For a human to be perfect is impossible. Your only using these statements to justfy your perfection. I find it sad that you equate these men's rigteousness as perfection and equal to Jesus Christ. If Noah and Job , in fact, were perfect, then Christ was not the perfect sacrifice and atonement for all of man, including Noah and Job!
• Or will you continue to believe in the doctrines of man, even religion (the bad kind), which want to keep you in bondage to sin, by convincing you that you are hopeless, you cannot be perfect, you cannot do anything, you are sinful, and hope that sometime in the future eg at death, God will make you perfect...despite the facts - we are crucified with Christ, we are raised with Him, we have received the Spirit of sonship, the Spirit of Christ. God doesn't just "declare" that we are righteous even though we are not, neither does He sprinkle fairy dust righteousness on us and now say we are righteous. When God looks at us , in Christ, we are as righteous and perfect as Christ Himself. For these reasons I believe we can be perfect, but not sinless.
  I won't even recognize these ridiculus statements with an answer.
• James, I truly love you as a brother or a neighbor but I am finally done with your doctrines.

 

[james1523]

It is common for protestants to say that for a human to be perfect is impossible yet I just quoted scriptures which says Noah, Job and Zechariah and Elizabeth were perfect. John the baptist was probably perfect too. Either Scriptures are lying or there is some perfect people. And if it was impossible to be perfect, Jesus wouldn't have said we had to be. This doesn't mean incapable of sinning or without sinning, it means being blameless in the eyes of God.

I will highlight a number of incorrect views in protestant theology, which are very close to the truth but not quite there:
"Jesus Christ was the only perfect person" - Scripture says there were other perfect men too, and were able to be so without regeneration of the indwelling of the Spirit. Jesus Christ was the only sinless person, but not the only perfect person. Even though Noah and Job were perfect, they still sinned and needed sacrifice to cover their sins.
"Righteousness is something we get or is attributed to us" - Scripture says Christ Himself is our righteousness.
"Righteousness is a gift" - Righteousness is not a thing that can stand alone by itself or be given like a gift. It is Christ our righteousness who is the gift, and given to us by the gift of the Holy Spirit.
"We can never be perfect" - Jesus told us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect, and the problem of sin and death has been dealt with and we have received the power of the Spirit, so that we can be perfect.
"God doesn't see us, He only sees Christ" - not really true, God sees us in Christ, according to the Bible we are now one with Him (1 Cor 6:17).
"God doesn't see our sins" - this view is not true, because we will be held accountable for everything we do (Rom 14:12). God forgives, He forgets, but He still sees them.