Contemporary Judaizers

[Barny]

I understand the spiritual meaning of adultery concerning Christians being married to Christ rather than the law.
But I do not understand what the spiritual meaning of incest is, as per 1 Cor 5:1, what is your answer? Or the spiritual meaning of homosexuality?
A Christian can commit spiritual adultery by turning to the law and away from Christ.
But how does a Christian commit spiritual incest or homosexuality against Christ?

I can only explain it as I did in post #273, regarding fornication with one's father's wife, 1Cor 5:1
The "wife" refers to Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.
The "father" is the devil, as Jesus described to the Pharisees in John 8:44.

Satan wants to bring us under the law for righteousness by works. He wants us to fornicate with his wife, Hagar. He wants us to not submit to God's righteousness and instead to establish our own righteousness.

What's Satan's purpose in wanting us to fornicate with his wife, Hagar (righteousness by works of the law)?
Rev 12:9,10
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Satan seeks to accuse man of unrighteousness, and he can do this if we are under the law for righteousness ( that is fornicating with his wife, Hagar).

As for spiritual homosexuality, I confess I don't have much understanding on that at the moment, except what is described in Rom 1:25-27.

Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

 

[Barny]

Christians can still sin because 1 John 1:9 says If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. So clearly, Christians can still be unrighteous and so they need to confess their sins to be made righteous again.

If we read 1John 1 from the beginning we will see it's evangelical context. It declares eternal life to the lost so that they to may have fellowship with the Father and His Son.

1John 1:2,3
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

As to your claim that Christians can still be unrighteous, this contradicts scripture.
For example, consider Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

As Christians have been justified by God, why are you then contradicting God and saying they still can be charged with sin/unrighteousness?

Who is it that can be charged with sin/unrighteousness?
It's those who have not been justified by God. It's the unbelievers who are of the devil, because they can be charged with sin/unrighteousness, 1John 3:8.

I suspect your claim above is made based on your desire to try to justify the doctrine you follow that Christians must obey the law perfectly or else they are lost.

What is unrighteousness? It is committing sin by breaking the law (1 John 3:4).

Agreed.

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
- to purify ourselves is to practice righteousness by obeying the law(verse 7)

How does one purify themselves?
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It was Christ's sacrifice that has purified Christians.

But, your claim that purification is through obedience to the law is not supported in scripture. What you are describing is righteousness by works of the law.

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
- If we abide in Him we do not sin, because in Christ there is no sin (verse 5). This is conditional upon us walking in fellowship with Christ and remaining in Him as per Christ's command (John 15:4)
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

To walk in fellowship is to believe on Jesus, which are the works he asked us to do, John 6:29.

Anyone who mixes works of the law with grace is not walking in the light.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
- He who practices righteousness is righteous. This is clear that he who obeys the moral law practices righteousness and is righteous.

How do we practice righteousness?

We believe on Jesus. Thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

Why would you add works of the law to this when scripture does not include it?

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
- He who breaks the law continually is of the devil (verse 4), because a believer has God's seed and cannot sin (verse 9).

Here you are speaking of "habitual" sin. This of course begs the question as to what defines "habitual". Do you have any scriptures giving us specifics on what is "habitual"?

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
-Not sin means that we do not live in sin continually. A believer may fall into sin occasionally, but God's life in him will not allow him to live in sin continually.

Sin = transgression of the law.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No. Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, Gal 3:24, 1Tim 1:9
Hence we see Rom 8:33. Ga; 2:15
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Thus we see in Gal 2:15.
We who are Jews by nature (Christians, Rom 2:29,),and not sinners

Christians have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1

The doctrine you follow contradicts scripture and tries to lure Christians back under the law so that Satan, the accuser, can charge them with sin still.

John also says in 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.". If we deny the indwelling sin in our nature, we deceive ourselves.

Only PAST sin was dealt with at the cross. .
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

As only past sin was dealt with at the cross, then that means there is no more future sin to be covered.
If we continue to believe in Jesus then we're covered by his righteousness, holiness, perfection. Hence we cannot be charged with sin Rom 8:33

But if we turn back to the law then we can be charged with sin, as whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law) , I make myself a transgressor.Sinner

The antinomian heresy says that Christians only have to believe in Christ and don't have to keep God's moral law.

You claim here that the thief on the cross who was saved by grace without any deeds of the law, was following the so called "äntinomian heresy"?

 

[james1523]

To walk in fellowship is to believe on Jesus, which are the works he asked us to do, John 6:29.

Anyone who mixes works of the law with grace is not walking in the light.

1 John 1:7 says Jesus walks in the light, and we are to walk in the light. What is this light? Letting the Bible speak for itself, we find that the light is the law and the Word of God. Proverbs 6:23 , Psalm 119:105.

You claim here that the thief on the cross who was saved by grace without any deeds of the law, was following the so called "äntinomian heresy"?

The thief on the cross story that is propagated in Christianity is an unsupported myth. Supposedly the thief had a conversion experience on the cross, no works required.
But how do you know? Scripture doesn't say when and where the thief was saved. He could have been saved before hand - his words about Christ being innocent indicates that the thief already knew something about Christ. The thief also knew Christ's teaching about Christ coming in his kingdom for the millennial reign of Christ. Maybe he was already a disciple of Christ before being crucified. Maybe he had already undergone water baptism , changed his life around and followed Christ, you don't know that. Maybe the thief was already living righteously before God, before being crucified, but still had to pay for his crime on a cross.
You cannot say that the thief was saved by faith alone and not by works.
As for being saved without works - the thief didn't merely believe in Christ or pray the sinners prayer... he did something.. he said some kind words to Christ, and rebuked the others . If anything it is because of these words that Christ forgave him.
Christ forgave the thief on the cross because of his righteous words. The thief didn't say "Lord I believe in you", neither did He say "You are the Son of God", neither did he say "forgive me Lord and save me" or "have mercy on me, a sinner". The thief only rebuked the other thieves, and asked Christ to remember Him in his kingdom. These are not the words of a man who had a conversion experience on the cross, but the words of a man who was already saved and a follower of Christ before going to the cross.

To be saved by grace means to believe that Jesus rose from the dead - the thief had no such opportunity, the thief was dead before Christ rose 3 days later.
To be saved by grace means to be born again by the Spirit - the thief did not receive the Spirit, because the thief died before Christ was resurrected and sent the Spirit.
The thief on the cross is actually not an example of instant Christian conversion, but an example of Christ's particular mercy and forgiveness to a man who showed him love.
As also with the woman who poured perfume on Christ's feet in Luke 7. Christ forgave this woman because of her act of love, and Christ forgave the thief on the cross because of his righteous words, which was also an act of love.
The thief on the cross (as well as the woman's act of love) proves that Christ takes our righteous words and deeds into account, and it is not based on faith alone.

 

[james1523]

As to your claim that Christians can still be unrighteous, this contradicts scripture.
For example, consider Rom 8:33

I am only quoting 1 John 1:9, that says Christ will cleanse us from unrighteousness if we confess our sins.
Now you may say this is written to unbelievers - fair enough, but John calls his readers "my little children" in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 5:13 says:" I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life", which is addressed to believers. So actually, 1 John 1:9 is written to believers, and if Christ cleanses us from unrighteousness, this proves that Christians can be unrighteous.

1 John 2:1 says "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin."
- "my dear children" - shows this is written to believers
- "I write this to you so that you will not sin", shows John's words are to encourage them not to sin, proving that Christians can sin.

And next sentence
"But if anybody does sin" proves that Christians are able to sin.

 

[james1523]

How does one purify themselves?
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It was Christ's sacrifice that has purified Christians.

But, your claim that purification is through obedience to the law is not supported in scripture. What you are describing is righteousness by works of the law.

The verse says we purify ourselves, not Christ purifies us. It is taken from Isaiah 1:16 "Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. Learn to do right; seek justice."
And James 4:8 "Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
And 2 Cor 7:1 " let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit"

So we have 4 scriptures which say we can purify ourselves and this is the meaning.

If we include your scripture Titus 2:14, it says Christ purifies us.

Putting two and two together, the bible says that Christians are to purify themselves and Christ also purifies them.

Purifying ourselves without Christ purifying us is legalism.
Christ purifying us without us purifying ourselves is lawlessness or faith without works which is dead.
Us purifying ourselves and Christ purifying us is what the Bible teaches - we put our trust in Christ and he purifies us, and at the same time we purify ourselves by the light of His Word and his law, which is the work which shows our faith.
You may call that mixing grace with law, but actually that's what the Bible teaches, it is not mixing grace with law but faith shown by works.

 

[B-A-C]

There are 2 different paths to righteousness.
1: Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. This is the path Christians choose, therefore we're not under the law for righteousness, Rom 10:4, Rom 8:2, Gal 5:18, Gal 3:24, 1 Tim 1:9
OR
2: Righteousness by works of the law. Legalists choose this path, even if they mix it with grace. Non-believers (even though they may reject the law) have only got righteousness by works of the law as their measure for righteousness as they have rejected the alternative of righteousness by faith.

A Gentile is a non-believer.
Christians are spiritual Jews. We are true Jews who have had circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:29.

So you're saying in path 2 above, it's possible for some people to get to heaven without Jesus? John 14:6; Acts 4:12;

A Gentile is a non believer? Well I have to agree there are Gentiles who are non-believers.
What do you consider non-Israelite s who are believers?
And you consider non believing Israelite s to be Gentiles?
What do you consider a non-believing, non Israelite?
Were all of the non-Christians Jews of the Old Testament actually Gentiles? (The word 'Jews' appears over 60 times in the OT)

So now you are saying both Israelite s and non-Israelite s can be under the law?
Does this mean they can commit sins such as murder and adultery?
Does this mean that people can commit others sins besides un-belief?

Was Paul an apostle to the non-believing Israelite s? Rom 11:13;
In Acts 10:45; Was the Holy Spirit given to non-believers?
In Acts 15:17; Are the Gentiles here believers or non-believers? Acts 21:21; Acts 14:1;
Acts 21:25; Are there Gentiles who are believers? Rom 3:29; Rom 15:9; Rom 15:18; Eph 3:6; Rom 1:16;
In Gal 2:9; why does it separate the circumcised from the Gentiles?

Are both the Jews and the Gentiles going to be judged? Rom 2:9-10; Rom 10:12;
Is Peter a Jew or a Gentile in Gal 2:14; ?

 

[Barny]

1 John 1:7 says Jesus walks in the light, and we are to walk in the light. What is this light? Letting the Bible speak for itself, we find that the light is the law and the Word of God. Proverbs 6:23 , Psalm 119:105.

Actually, 1John 1:7. does not say Jesus is "walking" in the light. Instead it says that Jesus is "in" the light.
And note John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

Here we see Jesus is the light. Those who believe on Jesus do not "walk" in darkness, but have the light of life (Jesus Christ).

As for your reference to the law being the light, you misunderstand those scriptures.
It was Jesus who delighted in the law of the Lord kept the law perfectly.
Ps 1:1,2
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Note Rom 7:22. .
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

A Christian's inner man is Christ. And it's Christ's righteousness, holiness, perfection that believers benefit from.

But, if someone mixes works of the law with grace, then they are denying grace. They are rejecting Christ's sacrifice. They are rejecting the need for his righteousness, holiness, perfection.
You simply cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:2
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

The thief on the cross story that is propagated in Christianity is an unsupported myth. Supposedly the thief had a conversion experience on the cross, no works required..

Legalists always ignore that our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.

I can only imagine this is because they are in rebellion against God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

The thief on the cross did the works of believing on Jesus and was saved, and that without any deeds of the law.

Scripture doesn't say when and where the thief was saved. He could have been saved before hand - his words about Christ being innocent indicates that the thief already knew something about Christ. The thief also knew Christ's teaching about Christ coming in his kingdom for the millennial reign of Christ. Maybe he was already a disciple of Christ before being crucified. Maybe he had already undergone water baptism , changed his life around and followed Christ, you don't know that. Maybe the thief was already living righteously before God, before being crucified, but still had to pay for his crime on a cross.
You cannot say that the thief was saved by faith alone and not by works.
As for being saved without works - the thief didn't merely believe in Christ or pray the sinners prayer... he did something.. he said some kind words to Christ, and rebuked the others . If anything it is because of these words that Christ forgave him.
Christ forgave the thief on the cross because of his righteous words. The thief didn't say "Lord I believe in you", neither did He say "You are the Son of God", neither did he say "forgive me Lord and save me" or "have mercy on me, a sinner". The thief only rebuked the other thieves, and asked Christ to remember Him in his kingdom. These are not the words of a man who had a conversion experience on the cross, but the words of a man who was already saved and a follower of Christ before going to the cross.

No doubt both thieves had heard the gospel beforehand. Note how the thief that mocked Jesus even said "If you are the Christ....."

Remember that one plants a seed, another waters it, and God provides the increase.
So it is with the gospel. One plants the seed of the gospel of grace and it could be quite some time later before they are ready to receive Christ.

But your assumption that the thief might have perfectly obeyed the law is unfounded and is merely an effort to continue preaching works of the law regardless that it contradicts scripture.

BTW, that thief admitted he was deserving of his punishment. He also called Jesus "Lord" and asked to be remembered in "thy kingdom". Clearly he was believing the gospel.

To be saved by grace means to believe that Jesus rose from the dead - the thief had no such opportunity, the thief was dead before Christ rose 3 days later.
To be saved by grace means to be born again by the Spirit - the thief did not receive the Spirit, because the thief died before Christ was resurrected and sent the Spirit.
The thief on the cross is actually not an example of instant Christian conversion, but an example of Christ's particular mercy and forgiveness to a man who showed him love.
As also with the woman who poured perfume on Christ's feet in Luke 7. Christ forgave this woman because of her act of love, and Christ forgave the thief on the cross because of his righteous words, which was also an act of love.
The thief on the cross (as well as the woman's act of love) proves that Christ takes our righteous words and deeds into account, and it is not based on faith alone.

1John 5:1-5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

And note 1John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

That thief on the cross overcame the world.
How?
he believed on Jesus, which are the works that we are asked to do, John 6:29.

I get the impression from what you have be preaching here that you think anybody with death bed salvation is lost because they never kept the law perfectly.

 

[Barny]

I am only quoting 1 John 1:9, that says Christ will cleanse us from unrighteousness if we confess our sins.
Now you may say this is written to unbelievers - fair enough, but John calls his readers "my little children" in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 5:13 says:" I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life", which is addressed to believers. So actually, 1 John 1:9 is written to believers, and if Christ cleanses us from unrighteousness, this proves that Christians can be unrighteous.

1 John 2:1 says "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin."
- "my dear children" - shows this is written to believers
- "I write this to you so that you will not sin", shows John's words are to encourage them not to sin, proving that Christians can sin.

And next sentence
"But if anybody does sin" proves that Christians are able to sin.

Terms like "children", "brethren" etc can refer to believers or non-believers. You have to consider the context.

Your claim that Christians can still sin contradicts scripture.

Note 1John 3:6-9.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Your claim that John says Christians can still sin suggests John contradicting himself with what he says in 1John 3:6-9.

Jesus set us free from sin, John 8:36. But you contradict this and claim he didn't quite complete it at the cross.

Only PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25. That means there is no more sacrifice for future sin. This means that once we are in Christ we're covered by his righteousness, holiness, perfection and Satan the accuser cannot charge us with sin.

Note 1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6.): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6, ) hath ceased from sin

Note Gal 2:15.
We who are Jews by nature (Christians, Rom 2:29.), and not sinners

Note Rom 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Yet you contradict this and try to bring Christians back under the law so that Satan, the accuser, can charge them with sin, resulting in the death penalty.

 

[Barny]

The verse says we purify ourselves, not Christ purifies us. It is taken from Isaiah 1:16 "Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. Learn to do right; seek justice."

Again, how do we purify ourselves?
I'll offer another scripture to confirm Titus 2:14

1John 3:1-3.
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
This speaks clearly of the gospel. God so loved the world that He gave his only begotton Son...
And how do we become Sons of God? We believe on Jesus, 1John 5:1

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Hope in WHO?
Christ Jesus.
Note that it does not include works of the law. In fact works of the law is unbelief in Jesus. You cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6.

Tit 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to thehope of eternal life.

And James 4:8 "Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

For context, note who James 4 is addressing.
James 4:4
Ye (spiritual) adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Hence when verse 8 says "Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded" it's speaking to unbelievers, who preach works of the law (James 4:12).
Unbelievers/those preaching the law have yet to receive Christ and thereby purify their hearts.

And 2 Cor 7:1 " let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit"

2Cor 7:1. says the following.
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And what does it refer to?
For context consider 2Cor 6:1 & 14-18.
We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Note it warns about falling from grace. .

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

And how are the Corinthians being potentially lured away from grace?
They are associating with unbelievers (those in darkness). They are associating with those who are fornicating with their father's (the devil) wife (Hagar/righteousness by works of the law), 1Cor 5.

Hence we see the context of the cleansing referred to in 2Cor 7:1.
We see similar warnings to some of the churches in Rev 2.

Us purifying ourselves and Christ purifying us is what the Bible teaches - we put our trust in Christ and he purifies us, and at the same time we purify ourselves by the light of His Word and his law, which is the work which shows our faith.
You may call that mixing grace with law, but actually that's what the Bible teaches, it is not mixing grace with law but faith shown by works.

Here you are claiming that Jesus did not do a good enough job at purifying us and that we have to finish off his incomplete task.

Nice try, but sadly you are mixing grace with works of the law.

 

[Barny]

So you're saying in path 2 above, it's possible for some people to get to heaven without Jesus?

No, as by the works of the law no man shall be justified. Gal 2:16
Under the law the whole world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.
.

What do you consider non-Israelite s who are believers?
And you consider non believing Israelite s to be Gentiles?
What do you consider a non-believing, non Israelite?
Were all of the non-Christians Jews of the Old Testament actually Gentiles? (The word 'Jews' appears over 60 times in the OT)

A real Jew is one who has had circumcision of the heart.
Rom 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rather than thinking in physical terms, refer to what God describes in scripture.
Believers have had circumcision of the heart. They are the real Jews.

Physical Jews are not real Jews. They are really Gentiles, in spiritual terms, as they have not had circumcision of the heart.
Note 1Cor 10:18-20

Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Here we see Israel after the flesh being described as Gentiles sacrificing to devils.
Physical Jews are in unbelief. They seek righteousness by works of the law instead of submitting to God's righteousness, Rom 10:3.

So now you are saying both Israelite s and non-Israelite s can be under the law?
Does this mean they can commit sins such as murder and adultery?
Does this mean that people can commit others sins besides un-belief?

Anyone who does not believe in Jesus (this includes those who mix grace with works of the law) will be judged by the only measure for righteousness, which is the law (Rev 20:12). Regardless of whether they choose to be under the law or not. And just one offence makes you guilty of ALL the law, James 2:10.

But those who believe on Jesus will be found in the book of Life (Jesus Christ) Rev 20:12.
It's Christ's righteousness, holiness, perfection that covers them.

Was Paul an apostle to the non-believing Israelite s? Rom 11:13;
In Acts 10:45; Was the Holy Spirit given to non-believers?
In Acts 15:17; Are the Gentiles here believers or non-believers? Acts 21:21; Acts 14:1;
Acts 21:25; Are there Gentiles who are believers? Rom 3:29; Rom 15:9; Rom 15:18; Eph 3:6; Rom 1:16;
In Gal 2:9; why does it separate the circumcised from the Gentiles?

We know who is a real Jew as described in Rom 2:29.
However, we have to consider the context of each scripture to discern whether it speaks in a physical term or spiritual term. Therefore consider the context of each of the verses you listed above and you will see.

Are both the Jews and the Gentiles going to be judged? Rom 2:9-10

To do evil is to be in unbelief. This is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9

To do good is to believe on Jesus. This is the gospel of grace.

So your quote from Romans is referring to both physical Jews and physical Gentiles all facing the same judgement. If you believe on Jesus, then you receive glory, honour, and peace.

But if either physical Jews or physical Gentiles reject Christ (which includes if you mix grace with works of the law) then such face tribulation and anguish.

;

Rom 10:12;

Note the verse before this.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The scripture you quoted refers to the gospel, and that regardless of whether you are a physical Jew or physical Greek, God is rich to all who call upon Him.

Note the next verse
Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Is Peter a Jew or a Gentile in Gal 2:14; ?

Consider the scriptures around this for context. .
Gal 2:14-18
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a (physical) Jew, yet you live like a (physical) Gentile and not like a (physical) Jew. How is it, then, that you force (physical) Gentiles to follow (physical) Jewish customs?


“We who are (spiritual) Jews by birth and not sinful (spiritual) Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.


“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If I rebuild what I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), then I really would be a lawbreaker/Sinner.


Here we see it speaks in both physical and spiritual terms.
Peter was physically born as a physical Jew. And physical Gentiles were physically born as physical Gentiles.
But we see it speaking about the spiritual side too, in verse 15.
All believers, whether they come from physical Jew or physical Gentile background, are spiritual Jews through their spiritual birth.

Phew....that was a marathon answering 4 posts, especially yours B-A-C. Would appreciate fewer questions in one post thanks,

 

[james1523]

Terms like "children", "brethren" etc can refer to believers or non-believers. You have to consider the context.

Your claim that Christians can still sin contradicts scripture.

Note 1 John 3:6-9
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Your claim that John says Christians can still sin suggests John contradicting himself with what he says in 1 John 3:6-9

Jesus set us free from sin, John 8:36. But you contradict this and claim he didn't quite complete it at the cross.

Only PAST sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25. That means there is no more sacrifice for future sin. This means that once we are in Christ we're covered by his righteousness, holiness, perfection and Satan the accuser cannot charge us with sin.

Note 1 Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6.): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6, ) hath ceased from sin

Note Gal 2:15.
We who are Jews by nature (Christians, Rom 2:29.), and not sinners

Note Rom 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Yet you contradict this and try to bring Christians back under the law so that Satan, the accuser, can charge them with sin, resulting in the death penalty.

Unless John was a new ager or universalist, unbelievers are not called children or brethren. 1 John was written from Ephesus to the churches in Asia Minor.
You are contradicting Scripture that says Christians should confess their sin.

 

[james1523]

For context, note who James 4 is addressing.
James 4:4
Ye (spiritual) adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Hence when verse 8 says "Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded" it's speaking to unbelievers, who preach works of the law (James 4:12).
Unbelievers/those preaching the law have yet to receive Christ and thereby purify their hearts.

It is written to believers, because unbelievers aren't married to Christ, therefore they cannot commit spiritual adultery.

 

[james1523]

Legalists always ignore that our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.

I can only imagine this is because they are in rebellion against God's will that we believe on Jesus, John 6:40.

The thief on the cross did the works of believing on Jesus and was saved, and that without any deeds of the law.

You are misquoting John 6:29, John 6:29 says work, singular, not works. Believing is the greatest work. But then James says faith without works (plural) is dead. So we need work (faith), and we need works.

The thief on the cross may have believed in Jesus, but he didn't receive the Spirit, therefore was not born again. Rom 8:9 says "and if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ".

No doubt both thieves had heard the gospel beforehand. Note how the thief that mocked Jesus even said "If you are the Christ....."

Remember that one plants a seed, another waters it, and God provides the increase.
So it is with the gospel. One plants the seed of the gospel of grace and it could be quite some time later before they are ready to receive Christ.

But your assumption that the thief might have perfectly obeyed the law is unfounded and is merely an effort to continue preaching works of the law regardless that it contradicts scripture.

BTW, that thief admitted he was deserving of his punishment. He also called Jesus "Lord" and asked to be remembered in "thy kingdom". Clearly he was believing the gospel.

The fact that the thief called Jesus Lord, suggests he was already a believer in Christ before going to the cross. Most likely the thief was also water baptized, as many were baptized in that region. You cannot prove that the thief was saved by faith alone, because you cannot prove when the thief believed in Christ. You cannot prove that the thief first believed in Christ on the cross. His acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord and his knowledge of the kingdom indicates the thief was already following Christ to some extent.

1 John 5:1-5
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

And note 1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

That thief on the cross overcame the world.
How?
he believed on Jesus, which are the works that we are asked to do, John 6:29.

I get the impression from what you have be preaching here that you think anybody with death bed salvation is lost because they never kept the law perfectly.

It was impossible for the thief to be born of God, because the Spirit was not sent , Jesus had not risen.
Belief in Jesus means believing that God raised Him from the dead. Rom 10:9 says "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
The thief did not have this opportunity to believe in the risen Christ.

 

[Barny]

You are contradicting Scripture that says Christians should confess their sin.

Apart from the evangelical context this chapter speaks in towards the lost who are still in their sin, note the contradictions the doctrine you follow has with 1John 1:9.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You claim this verse speaks to Christians. Such a reading has many contradictions.

Firstly, such a claim contradicts 1John 3:6-9 which says Christians "cannot sin" and that anyone who does sin is "of the devil". The doctrine you follow has scripture contradicting itself.

The 2nd contradiction is that your reading of verse 9 above suggests that Christians become unclean/unrighteous again, after Jesus cleansed them originally, having made them righteous. The doctrine you follow suggests a see-saw life for Christians as they slip in and out of righteousness, again and again, and again, throughout their lives. And this is also all dependent on whether they repent or not, according to your reading of 1John 1:9. What if a Christian forgets to repent?

3rd contradiction. The doctrine you follow has Christians still being charged with sin. But scripture tells us that nobody can lay ANY THING to the charge of those God has justified, Rom 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Why are you charging Christians with sin when scripture says otherwise.

4th contradiction. Only PAST sin was remitted at the cross. Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

This scripture is consistent with all the others that state that Christians cannot sin. When we receive Christ, only past sin was remitted and after that there is no more sin that can be charged against us.
But your reading of verse 9 in 1John says Christians are still having to have more sins dealt with even after Christ's remittance of only past sin. The doctrine you follow contradicts scripture again.

There are more contradictions I could point our but for the sake of keeping posts shorter I'll stick with these for now.

 

[Barny]

It is written to believers, because unbelievers aren't married to Christ, therefore they cannot commit spiritual adultery.

Matt 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman (such as Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24) to lust after her hath committed (spiritual)adultery with her already in his heart.

 

[Barny]

You are misquoting John 6:29, John 6:29 says work, singular, not works. Believing is the greatest work. But then James says faith without works (plural) is dead. So we need work (faith), and we need works.

Note John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The thief on the cross may have believed in Jesus, but he didn't receive the Spirit, therefore was not born again. Rom 8:9 says "and if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ".

Here you seem to claim the gospel of grace is false and that scripture such as John 3:16 is not to be considered valid.

The fact that the thief called Jesus Lord, suggests he was already a believer in Christ before going to the cross. Most likely the thief was also water baptized, as many were baptized in that region. You cannot prove that the thief was saved by faith alone, because you cannot prove when the thief believed in Christ. You cannot prove that the thief first believed in Christ on the cross. His acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord and his knowledge of the kingdom indicates the thief was already following Christ to some extent.

No point arguing over hypothetical's. But the fact remains that the thief's experience on the cross was consistent with the gospel of grace. This contradicts your claim that deeds of the law are required. There is nothing in scripture to support your wish that the thief might have kept the law, nor do we see scripture suggesting the keeping of the law as being works required in salvation.

It was impossible for the thief to be born of God, because the Spirit was not sent , Jesus had not risen.,
Belief in Jesus means believing that God raised Him from the dead. Rom 10:9 says "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
The thief did not have this opportunity to believe in the risen Christ.

You at first suggest that the thief may have heard the gospel before going to the cross but now you contradict yourself and claim that he knew nothing about Christ was to rise again? Even the thief who mocked Jesus had heard that Jesus was the alleged Christ, the savior. Why wouldn't the thief who called Jesus "Lord" also have heard this?

I can see from your posts that you seem determined to mix works of the law with grace. Such a lukewarm mix is not acceptable though, Rev 3:15. God calls upon any under such doctrines to repent, Rev 3:19. He loves you.

 

[B-A-C]

I find it difficult to follow some of this.


According to some on here...
Only Jews are under the commandments, but Gentiles become Jews when they get saved?
But after they become Jews, they still aren't under the commandments?

The only sin we can commit is unbelief, but mixing belief with works is also a sin?
The only sin we can commit is unbelief, but we can "commit spiritual fornication" by returning to the law that we aren't under anyway?
Is spiritual fornication considered a sin or not?

Yes Hagar represents the Old covenant, (the law) but she wasn't a Jew. Or was she exempt from the law, since she wasn't a Jew?
I'm wondering why God would want us to repent of these things if they aren't sin?

Also if unbelief is the only sin we can commit, does 1 Jn 2:1; mean Jesus is only our advocate if we don't believe in Him?
Is Matt 5:28; about the spiritual or the physical?

 

[DHC]

I find it difficult to follow some of this.


According to some on here...
Only Jews are under the commandments, but Gentiles become Jews when they get saved?
But after they become Jews, they still aren't under the commandments?

The only sin we can commit is unbelief, but mixing belief with works is also a sin?
The only sin we can commit is unbelief, but we can "commit spiritual fornication" by returning to the law that we aren't under anyway?
Is spiritual fornication considered a sin or not?

Yes Hagar represents the Old covenant, (the law) but she wasn't a Jew. Or was she exempt from the law, since she wasn't a Jew?
I'm wondering why God would want us to repent of these things if they aren't sin?

Also if unbelief is the only sin we can commit, does 1 Jn 2:1; mean Jesus is only our advocate if we don't believe in Him?
Is Matt 5:28; about the spiritual or the physical?

Hello B-A-C.

Only Jews are under the commandments, but Gentiles become Jews when they get saved?

Where does it state that Gentiles become Jews after they are saved?

The only sin we can commit is unbelief, but we can "commit spiritual fornication" by returning to the law that we aren't under anyway?
Is spiritual fornication considered a sin or not?

You have really confused the issue deeply with that statement B-A-C. Gentiles cannot return to the law
as they were never under the law. A Gentile can fall from Grace by adopting the law as a means of
obtaining a self righteousness. Spiritual fornication is the combination of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
and obedience to the law.

Abraham and Hagar was pure spiritual and physical adultery B-A-C, Abraham's attempt to achieve in
the promise of God that he would bear offspring. Abraham committed a work of the flesh in joining with
Hagar to fulfill God's promise. So the law given at Mt Sinai can be seen as Hagar, in that it is a work of
the flesh in trying to fulfill God's promise of sanctification in you. Legal obedience is in direct violation of
the Grace given to you in Christ. You have been instructed to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

B-A-C you have been asking a lot of questions lately. May I ask you a question B-A-C.

Here are a few verses that I still have not yet received a reply to my earlier question.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions,
factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these.

Sorcery is listed within the deeds of the flesh. How do you obey the law to avoid this
sin and do you place yourself under the entire law in doing so?

 

[Barny]

I find it difficult to follow some of this

Look to Jesus your teacher, he will teach you all things.
1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

According to some on here...
Only Jews are under the commandments, but Gentiles become Jews when they get saved?
But after they become Jews, they still aren't under the commandments?

You misunderstand because you are looking in the physical.
Christians are spiritual Jews as we've had circumcision of the heart, Rom 2:29.
As for the physical part of us that you focus so much upon, it's already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin. As it's already dead (by faith) why would anyone then want to judge it's imperfect behavior by deeds of the law? It's already been put to death because of sin. That's why Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9. They've already been crucified (with Christ) because of their sin. They've gone through the first death. The second death will not come to them now.

The only sin we can commit is unbelief, but mixing belief with works is also a sin?
The only sin we can commit is unbelief, but we can "commit spiritual fornication" by returning to the law that we aren't under anyway?
Is spiritual fornication considered a sin or not?

Christians are saved by grace. This means works of the law do not apply at all. You cannot mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6. Either we're saved by grace OR works of the law. There is absolutely no mixing of these 2 possible.

Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The doctrine of works of the law is also described symbolically as Hagar, Gal 4:24.

Spiritual fornication with Hagar is mixing works of the law with grace.

To mix works of the law with grace is unbelief. Read Rom 11:6.

Is spiritual fornication sin?
Yes, as it's unbelief in Jesus.
We are complete in Christ, Col 2:10. Righteous (Rom 4:5. ), holy (Rom 11:16.), perfected (Heb 10:14.). How is physical deeds of the law going to add this what we already have when we believe on Jesus?

But if we doubt that we are righteous in Christ, based on our imperfect physical behavior, and we start saying that deeds of the law must be attained to be righteous, then that is unbelief in Jesus, which is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

Is Matt 5:28; about the spiritual or the physical?

It's both, but the Bible's main focus is about the spiritual.
As for the more important spiritual side, Christians do not lust after Hagar/righteousness by works of the law. We have the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/righteousness, 2Cor 3:7-11

 

[james1523]

Apart from the evangelical context this chapter speaks in towards the lost who are still in their sin, note the contradictions the doctrine you follow has with 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You claim this verse speaks to Christians. Such a reading has many contradictions.

Firstly, such a claim contradicts 1 John 3:6-9 hich says Christians "cannot sin" and that anyone who does sin is "of the devil". The doctrine you follow has scripture contradicting itself.

The 2nd contradiction is that your reading of verse 9 above suggests that Christians become unclean/unrighteous again, after Jesus cleansed them originally, having made them righteous. The doctrine you follow suggests a see-saw life for Christians as they slip in and out of righteousness, again and again, and again, throughout their lives. And this is also all dependent on whether they repent or not, according to your reading of 1 John 1:9 What if a Christian forgets to repent?

3rd contradiction. The doctrine you follow has Christians still being charged with sin. But scripture tells us that nobody can lay ANY THING to the charge of those God has justified, Rom 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Why are you charging Christians with sin when scripture says otherwise.

4th contradiction. Only PAST sin was remitted at the cross. Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

This scripture is consistent with all the others that state that Christians cannot sin. When we receive Christ, only past sin was remitted and after that there is no more sin that can be charged against us.
But your reading of verse 9 in 1John says Christians are still having to have more sins dealt with even after Christ's remittance of only past sin. The doctrine you follow contradicts scripture again.

There are more contradictions I could point our but for the sake of keeping posts shorter I'll stick with these for now.

1 John 3:6-9 is speaking of practicing sin, which is practicing sin by nature, not by mistake. Those who practice sin by nature are of the devil, those that don't practice sin are of God. Christians are referred to as sheep. Sheep sometimes fall into mud and get dirty, but they don't stop being a sheep. In contrast to pigs, who love to get into mud and stay there.