Contemporary Judaizers

[james1523]

Note John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus said there is only one work of God, to believe in Christ. This statement is evangelical in nature, and Christ was pointing them to the most important thing. But this does not mean there are not additional works that a Christian must do, these are detailed in James. It is best we consider the whole of scripture and not try to put John versus James etc.

Here you seem to claim the gospel of grace is false and that scripture such as John 3:16 is not to be considered valid.

The "gospel of grace" didn't start until after Jesus rose from the dead, it is not mentioned before the book of Acts, Acts 20:24. I invite you to do a bible word search to confirm this. The gospel of grace includes believing Jesus rose from the dead and receiving the Spirit. The thief did none of these. No one was born again by the Spirit before Jesus rose from the dead Barny, including the thief on the cross.

No point arguing over hypothetical's. But the fact remains that the thief's experience on the cross was consistent with the gospel of grace. This contradicts your claim that deeds of the law are required. There is nothing in scripture to support your wish that the thief might have kept the law, nor do we see scripture suggesting the keeping of the law as being works required in salvation.

As I said previously, gospel of grace didn't start until after Jesus rose from the dead. There is nothing in the thief on the cross to say when he first believed in Christ. The idea that the thief believed in Christ on the cross and had no works, is an unsupported myth. There is however one work the thief did - he showed love to Christ in his words.

"nor do we see scripture suggesting the keeping of the law as being works required in salvation." - you ignore the words of Christ - Matt 19:17 "Jesus replied. "....If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.""

You at first suggest that the thief may have heard the gospel before going to the cross but now you contradict yourself and claim that he knew nothing about Christ was to rise again? Even the thief who mocked Jesus had heard that Jesus was the alleged Christ, the savior. Why wouldn't the thief who called Jesus "Lord" also have heard this?

I can see from your posts that you seem determined to mix works of the law with grace. Such a lukewarm mix is not acceptable though, Rev 3:15. God calls upon any under such doctrines to repent, Rev 3:19. He loves you.

The thief called Jesus Lord on the cross, it suggests he already believed in Christ before going to the cross. You have nothing to prove that the thief first believed in Christ on the cross.

 

[Barny]

1 John 3:6-9 is speaking of practicing sin, which is practicing sin by nature, not by mistake. Those who practice sin by nature are of the devil, those that don't practice sin are of God. Christians are referred to as sheep. Sheep sometimes fall into mud and get dirty, but they don't stop being a sheep. In contrast to pigs, who love to get into mud and stay there.

The term "practice" sin is an ambiguous translation found in some Bibles.
Other Bibles use the specific translation "cannot" sin.

"Practice" is defined in various ways.
1:To do or perform habitually or customarily; make a habit of.
This is the definition you prefer, in spite of the fact that it contradicts the rest of scripture and also rejects translations from other Bibles that say "cannot" instead of "practice".

2: To work at, especially as a profession.
This definition is not relevant to 1John 3

3:The act or process of doing something; performance or action.
This is consistent with the Bible translations that say "cannot sin". In other words Christians do not "practice", that is do the act of, sin. There is nothing about "habitual" about this definition of "practice". It is consistent with "cannot sin", and also consistent with the the overall message within the Bible.

I listed some contradictions within the doctrine you follow in an earlier post, but you have not addressed them. I'll post them again below, and note your contradiction as I described in point No:2 below about the "habitual" ("practice") sin claim.

Apart from the evangelical context this first chapter of 1John 1 speaks in towards the lost who are still in their sin, note the contradictions the doctrine you follow has with 1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You claim this verse speaks to Christians. Such a reading has many contradictions.

Firstly, such a claim contradicts 1 John 3:6-9 hich says Christians "cannot sin" and that anyone who does sin is "of the devil". The doctrine you follow has scripture contradicting itself.

The 2nd contradiction is that your reading of verse 9 above suggests that Christians become unclean/unrighteous again, after Jesus cleansed them originally, having made them righteous. The doctrine you follow suggests a see-saw life for Christians as they slip in and out of righteousness, again and again, and again, throughout their lives. And this is also all dependent on whether they repent or not, according to your reading of 1 John 1:9 What if a Christian forgets to repent?
And can you provide scripture giving specifics about what determines "habitual" (practice) sin?
How often can a Christian "repent", before it's deemed as "habitual" (practicing sin) and thus exceeding God's limits of forgiveness, under this doctrine you follow?

3rd contradiction. The doctrine you follow has Christians still being charged with sin. But scripture tells us that nobody can lay ANY THING to the charge of those God has justified, Rom 8:33.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Why are you charging Christians with sin when scripture says otherwise.

4th contradiction. Only PAST sin was remitted at the cross. Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

This scripture is consistent with all the others that state that Christians cannot sin. When we receive Christ, only past sin was remitted and after that there is no more sin that can be charged against us.
But your reading of verse 9 in 1John says Christians are still having to have more sins dealt with even after Christ's remittance of only past sin. The doctrine you follow contradicts scripture again.

 

[DHC]

.
"nor do we see scripture suggesting the keeping of the law as being works required in salvation." - you ignore the words of Christ - Matt 19:17 "Jesus replied. "....If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.""

Hello James.

you ignore the words of Christ - Matt 19:17 "Jesus replied. "....If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.""

Well James, we would be in a very sorry state if we read the following verse and assumed
that the ten commandments can save someone.

Matthew 19
17...but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

That is what Jesus said, but we must consider the rest of the text and context to boot.
Otherwise we only partly realize what Jesus is saying and to whom. The ten commandments
will only do to you what they did to Paul, convict you of sin. They will not save you!

Shall we venture a little further into the scripture James.

18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Yes James, you read the above verse the same way I did. But yet you would have missed
the obvious. Loving your neighbor is not one of the ten commandments is it James.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you
shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

This is a direct commandment of God to the nation of Israel, in my opinion that is.

I am interested in how you interpret the law, James. How do you read this, as a commandment or not?

 

[Barny]

Jesus said there is only one work of God, to believe in Christ. This statement is evangelical in nature, and Christ was pointing them to the most important thing. But this does not mean there are not additional works that a Christian must do, these are detailed in James. It is best we consider the whole of scripture and not try to put John versus James etc.

Let's consider James 2:14-18
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

We see the same type of message in Matt 25 where the sheep and the goats are separated.
The sheep being those who showed their faith by their works.
The goats professed to know God, but in works (of the law/unbelief) they denied Him, Tit 1:16.

And note the same reference to the "naked" and the "hungry".
It speaks of the spiritually "naked" and spiritually "hungry". In other words, those who show their faith by their works are those who preach the gospel of grace to the lost, the spiritually hungry, the spiritually naked, etc.

Matt 25:33-40
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Let's consider the spiritual message in Matt 25.

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
It's Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's spiritually sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.


And how are the spiritually naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,


And who is the spiritual stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.


Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,


So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And in doing the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29, Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29), and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Christians (the sheep) are saved by grace. And we show our faith by our works of believing on Jesus, John 6:29. And this includes letting out light shine, sharing the gospel to the spiritually hungry, spiritually naked, spiritual strangers, spiritually sick, those in spiritual prison. In other words, we share the gospel of grace with the lost.

The goats, however, profess to know God (saying "Lord, Lord....") but in works (of the law for righteousness, which is unbelief in Jesus) they deny Him, Tit 1:16.

 

[james1523]

Let's consider James 2:14-18
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

We see the same type of message in Matt 25 where the sheep and the goats are separated.
The sheep being those who showed their faith by their works.
The goats professed to know God, but in works (of the law/unbelief) they denied Him, Tit 1:16.

And note the same reference to the "naked" and the "hungry".
It speaks of the spiritually "naked" and spiritually "hungry". In other words, those who show their faith by their works are those who preach the gospel of grace to the lost, the spiritually hungry, the spiritually naked, etc.

Matt 25:33-40
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Let's consider the spiritual message in Matt 25.

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
It's Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 10:3-4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Who are those in spiritual prison?
It's those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's spiritually sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5-6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.


And how are the spiritually naked clothed?
Isa 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,


And who is the spiritual stranger?
Eph 2:12
that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.


Eph 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,


So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And in doing the works of believing in Jesus, John 6:29, Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29), and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Christians (the sheep) are saved by grace. And we show our faith by our works of believing on Jesus, John 6:29. And this includes letting out light shine, sharing the gospel to the spiritually hungry, spiritually naked, spiritual strangers, spiritually sick, those in spiritual prison. In other words, we share the gospel of grace with the lost.

The goats, however, profess to know God (saying "Lord, Lord....") but in works (of the law for righteousness, which is unbelief in Jesus) they deny Him, Tit 1:16.

The words of James 2 and Matthew 25 are very much practical in nature. There is nothing in these verses to give us reason to spiritualise them.
James 2 talks about showing faith, which means practical and visible good works.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

Well James, we would be in a very sorry state if we read the following verse and assumed
that the ten commandments can save someone.

Matthew 19
17...but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.

That is what Jesus said, but we must consider the rest of the text and context to boot.
Otherwise we only partly realize what Jesus is saying and to whom. The ten commandments
will only do to you what they did to Paul, convict you of sin. They will not save you!

Shall we venture a little further into the scripture James.

18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Yes James, you read the above verse the same way I did. But yet you would have missed
the obvious. Loving your neighbor is not one of the ten commandments is it James.

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you
shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.

This is a direct commandment of God to the nation of Israel, in my opinion that is.

I am interested in how you interpret the law, James. How do you read this, as a commandment or not?

Matthew 19:17 says if we keep the commandments we will enter life. Here Jesus quoted 5 of the 10 commandments and the most important of the Leviticus laws, but these are not exclusive. This does not mean the other 5 commandments such as idolatry etc are not also important to keep. By only quoting some of the laws, is Jesus saying that murder is worse than idolatry? Of course not. This proves, contrary to Barny's suggestion, that keeping God's laws is related to salvation.

Although these laws are to the nation of Israel (particularly the ones about tithing etc), many are also to the Gentiles, coming straight from God's moral law.

We best be familiar with these laws, these laws, minus a few concerning sacrifices etc, are the same laws that will be in force during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, and Christians will be ruling over and enforcing them on the nations.

 

[DHC]

Matthew 19:17 says if we keep the commandments we will enter life. Here Jesus quoted 5 of the 10 commandments and the most important of the Leviticus laws, but these are not exclusive. This does not mean the other 5 commandments such as idolatry etc are not also important to keep. By only quoting some of the laws, is Jesus saying that murder is worse than idolatry? Of course not. This proves, contrary to Barny's suggestion, that keeping God's laws is related to salvation.

Although these laws are to the nation of Israel (particularly the ones about tithing etc), many are also to the Gentiles, coming straight from God's moral law.

We best be familiar with these laws, these laws, minus a few concerning sacrifices etc, are the same laws that will be in force during the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, and Christians will be ruling over and enforcing them on the nations.

Hello James.

Your the expert on Mt Sinai law, so you tell me how many commandments there are in all
that Gentiles must keep.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

Your the expert on Mt Sinai law, so you tell me how many commandments there are in all
that Gentiles must keep.

It is really easy to know. Gentiles are under the covenant God made with Noah and his descendants (that's you and me also) - Genesis 9:9. Here it prohibits eating blood and murder. These are the first two, and one is also repeated in Acts 15.
The Bible reveals more as we go on through the old testament and new testament. Gentiles must keep about 8 commandments plus the two greatest commandments on love. They include laws against idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality, blasphemy, strangled animals and blood, and the two greatest commandments. Ones about Sabbath, circumcision, unclean meats , tithing, etc, gentiles don't have to keep.

Keeping the commandments is a condition for entering life. But one's justification is not based upon keeping the commandments perfectly, that is why we are under grace, but it is possible to observe all the Lord's commands blamelessly, but not possible to be without sin or keep the law perfectly:
Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Matt 19:17 - there is no real life without obedience. There must be observance of God's laws to win eternal life, not merely in an outward way but from a pure motive. Faith, is belief in action, and true obedience by keeping the law is the outcome of true faith.

There are a few problems with a view that gentiles don't have to keep any laws. One is that the old testament such as Genesis 9:9, clearly gives laws for mankind under the covenant that God made with Noah and his descendants (that's every person on the face of the earth). Another is that Jesus said we must keep the commandments to enter life.

The meaning of being "under grace" has no meaning if we do not have any laws to keep. If we have no laws to keep, then there is no laws to break, and if no laws to break, we don't need God's grace. Sin is breaking the law of God (1 John). If we do not sin by breaking the law of God, we have nothing to confess. So the purpose of the law is to continually turn us to Christ. We must live a perfect life to enter heaven (or the New Jerusalem, more specifically), this can only be accomplished by having a righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees (Matt 5:20), which is accomplished by abiding in Christ who was the one who fulfilled the law perfectly.

We can be like Paul who delighted in God's law in his inner man (Rom 7:22) - the Spirit causes us to love God's law and be obedient to it. No one has ever been saved by faith alone without obedience, only by faith and obedience.

 

[B-A-C]

Christians are saved by grace. This means works of the law do not apply at all. You cannot mix works of the law with grace, Rom 11:6. Either we're saved by grace OR works of the law. There is absolutely no mixing of these 2 possible.

Ok, For now lets agree that Christians aren't under the law.
"Either we're saved by grace OR works of the law." This sentence seems to say there is another way to be saved, other than grace.

My question wasn't really who isn't under the law, but rather who IS under the law?

Lets say I have a sink in my house, it doesn't say "hot" and "cold". It simply says "believe in Jesus" and "don't believe in Jesus".
Now unlike all of the other sinks in my house, which let me turn hot and cold on at the same time (making the water lukewarm).
This particular sink only lets me turn on one side or the other. Not both at the same time. Because really, you can't believe in Jesus and not believe
in Jesus at the same time. Besides you state above "you cannot mix works with grace". So if works and the law have no intrinsic value, how can
they make the water any warmer or colder? According to you, the only sin I can commit, is non-belief. If I'm not under the commandments anyway,
how does obeying them make the water any warmer or colder? After all, there isn't a "obey the commandments" knob on my sink. That isn't an option.

Also, If I'm not under the law, never was under the law, and couldn't be under the law even if I wanted to. How can I commit spiritual fornication
by returning to the law that I was never under, and can't be under even if I wanted to?

 

[B-A-C]

Where does it state that Gentiles become Jews after they are saved?

That wasn't my quote, I was quoting Barny, but in this case he got it from Rom 2:28-29;

You have really confused the issue deeply with that statement B-A-C. Gentiles cannot return to the law
as they were never under the law. A Gentile can fall from Grace by adopting the law as a means of
obtaining a self righteousness. Spiritual fornication is the combination of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
and obedience to the law.

This still doesn't make sense to me. How can I (a gentile) return to the law, that I was never under?
You say Gentiles were never under the law, then you turn around and say spiritual fornication is obedience to the law.
Am I under the law or not? If not, how does obeying the commandments affect me?

So according to you, I can mix works and grace? But according to Barny, I cannot mix works and grace?

 

[B-A-C]

So by obeying the commandments (even if we believe in Jesus) we are going against what God wants?

I guess what he really meant was, hate God, kill your neighbors, commit adultery with their wives, lie to them whenever you can, steal from them whenever possible.
Otherwise if you don't these things you are obeying those awful commandments.

Now it all makes sense... ?? ( Well, it is April Fools Day )

 

[B-A-C]

A Gentile can fall from Grace by adopting the law as a means of
obtaining a self righteousness. Spiritual fornication is the combination of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
and obedience to the law.

So in other words, it's not what we believe that determines if we have grace, it's what we do (our actions) that causes us to fall from grace?

Here are a few verses that I still have not yet received a reply to my earlier question.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions,
factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these.

Sorcery is listed within the deeds of the flesh. How do you obey the law to avoid this
sin and do you place yourself under the entire law in doing so?

1. I don't recall ever specifically committing sorcery, at least not of purpose, but I have broken a few of the others listed in Gal 5.
2. To avoid committing sorcery, don't take hallucinogenic drugs. Don't try to do magic. Don't try to communicate with the dead.
3. Don't commit sorcery is not one of the 10 commandments. I have always separated the commandments and the entire law as
two different things. But to answer your question, if we break part of the law, we break all of the law. ( James 2:10; )

This is where we see grace differently. It seems you think we only need grace for unbelief.
I believe we need grace for all sin, for breaking all of the commandments. Unlike you, I believe Gentiles were under the law.
Unlike you, I believe Gentiles can commit other sins besides unbelief. Keep in mind, belief in God was a command in the old testament.
( Psa 78:22; Jonah 3:5; Isa 43:10-12; Exod 20:2-5; ) indeed how could you pray to someone you didn't believe in? So by believing in God, are
we under the whole law?

It seems one thing we see differently is grace.
The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23;
And everyone has sinned. Rom 3:23;
So we are all going to die. Of course the gift of God is grace. Grace for what? Unbelief? I can't be forgiven nor do I see the need to be forgiven of anything if I don't believe. Grace is for the sins we committed before we were a Christian, and for the sins we sometimes commit after we are Christians.
Grace is what keeps us saved, even though we sometimes as Christians fail to be perfect. If we could be perfect, we wouldn't need grace, because we
could have eternal life on our own. If we never sinned, then death has no power over us.

 

[Barny]

So by obeying the commandments (even if we believe in Jesus) we are going against what God wants?

We established in our earlier debates that you never did obey the law. Remember?
To obey (or keep) the law means you have to obey it perfectly, James 2:10.

Your original point about "habitual" sin and if we slip up once to often then we're lost, I suspect you have since discarded as error.

James, on the other hand, persists with an ambiguous doctrine insisting that perfect obedience to the law is required to enter into life, but then he contradicts himself and says that we need to repent when we don't keep it perfectly. The doctrine James preaches on this forum is full of contradictions which he avoids to deal with.

The debate has always centered around how is righteousness determined. Some here have always insisted that obedience to the law determines this. And even those who take this position have contradictory claims, with one saying perfect obedience to the law is required, whilst others claim some ambiguous minimum standard of obedience is required and that each of us is supposed to know what our individual specific minimum standard is as God does not give such specifics in scripture.

But as this issue is touching on how Christians are to behave, then the answer here is simply to love one another. And in this imperfect world that is going to require a lot of loving forgiveness, like 7x70.

I'll get back later as I'm off to work now.

 

[DHC]

So in other words, it's not what we believe that determines if we have grace, it's what we do (our actions) that causes us to fall from grace?
1. I don't recall ever specifically committing sorcery, at least not of purpose, but I have broken a few of the others listed in Gal 5.
2. To avoid committing sorcery, don't take hallucinogenic drugs. Don't try to do magic. Don't try to communicate with the dead.
3. Don't commit sorcery is not one of the 10 commandments. I have always separated the commandments and the entire law as
two different things. But to answer your question, if we break part of the law, we break all of the law. ( James 2:10; )

This is where we see grace differently. It seems you think we only need grace for unbelief.
I believe we need grace for all sin, for breaking all of the commandments. Unlike you, I believe Gentiles were under the law.
Unlike you, I believe Gentiles can commit other sins besides unbelief. Keep in mind, belief in God was a command in the old testament.
( Psa 78:22; Jonah 3:5; Isa 43:10-12; Exod 20:2-5; ) indeed how could you pray to someone you didn't believe in? So by believing in God, are
we under the whole law?

It seems one thing we see differently is grace.
The wages of sin is death. Rom 6:23;
And everyone has sinned. Rom 3:23;
So we are all going to die. Of course the gift of God is grace. Grace for what? Unbelief? I can't be forgiven nor do I see the need to be forgiven of anything if I don't believe. Grace is for the sins we committed before we were a Christian, and for the sins we sometimes commit after we are Christians.
Grace is what keeps us saved, even though we sometimes as Christians fail to be perfect. If we could be perfect, we wouldn't need grace, because we
could have eternal life on our own. If we never sinned, then death has no power over us.

Hello B-A-C.

Thanks B-A-C for bearing with me on this thread and I know it has not been a pleasant
experience for you. I had to press the argument concerning the whole law, in order to
dispel the great myth, that all that is required of obedience is to obey ten commandments.

I have always separated the commandments and the entire law as two different things.

Yes B-A-C, that was the real problem from the very beginning. The 'deeds of the flesh'
include many other types of sin such as 'sorcery' or even 'drunkenness'. There is no line of
separation between the ten commandments and the other laws. All law has to be taken into
account and carries equivalent weight.

Further the sin of drunkenness is widespread in our societies and is not even in the law.
Add to that drug addiction and gambling and we have in the end. Not a failure to obey
any number of commandments but the absolute failure of our own inherent nature. The
'deeds of the flesh' encompass the whole scope of sin and not just the sins the law depicts.

I believe we need grace for all sin, for breaking all of the commandments. Unlike you,
I believe Gentiles were under the law.

The law is made for the unrighteous B-A-C.

1 Timothy 1:9
realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless
and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill
their fathers or mothers, for murderers.

So by believing in God, are we under the whole law?

This is the problem that any legalist faces, they are in fact under the whole law. Otherwise
they fall into the trap of breaking the laws outside of the ten commandments. Which the
sin of 'sorcery' clearly demonstrates, study astrology and you are committing sorcery.

Gentiles were never under the law of Mt Sinai which the scripture declares. So how does
a Gentile become holy, how does a Gentile become righteous?

God's solution to this deep, sinful condition of mankind is not a Pharisee type of legal
obedience. It is the fruit of the Holy Spirit which not only meets the law but surpasses
the law. The deeds of the flesh are not fully met by the law system of Mt Sinai. Paul
knew that obedience to the law did not produce righteousness. Paul claimed in Romans
chapter seven that he did the opposite of what was required by the law.

Paul received the Holy Spirit and this was the life changing process that Paul noticed
within himself. Paul, day by day was growing up under the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul
witnessed this power working in his heart and mind. Paul was becoming a kinder, gentle
and far more loving person than what he was before meeting the Christ.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

These are the traits that are from God Himself and dwell within each of us who has
committed to Jesus Christ. If you examine these traits, they far exceed the requirements
of even the wider law. Kindness does not steal or kill, kindness meets and surpasses
the demands of the law. Gentleness does not provoke riots and disorder, a gentle person
is not a threat to anybody. No church division ever arose from a person who was growing
in a gentle disposition. No law is applicable to a person who exhibits love towards all.

That is why Paul instructs us to live and breath in the Holy Spirit. It is the fruit that
the Holy Spirit brings that is from above. We exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees
through this fruit bearing. Mercy and compassion moves within us, but we must allow
the Holy Spirit to do his work within us. We do not seek a legal righteousness by obedience
to the law, we bear the nature of the law giver within which is the true sanctification.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

There was never a legal requirement for any Christian because they are a new spiritual
creation. We are required to be what we really are, fully reconciled to God through
Jesus Christ. The tree will bear the fruit and the fruit is produced by God within us.

The law states that 'you shall not steal', but the person who has the Spirit is growing
in kindness and charity. Hence, it is not hard to see that the law of theft has no juristiction
over the kind and gentle person. We are not under the law and never were, but we are under
the law of Christ. Which is powered by the Holy Spirit, God transforms us daily into
the very righteousness of Christ.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound,
so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:4
so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to
the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:23
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves
groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us adequate as servants of a New Covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 

[james1523]

To obey (or keep) the law means you have to obey it perfectly, James 2:10.

You believe that Christians cannot sin, which means you believe Christians keep the law perfectly, because sin is breaking the law.

And contrary to some on this forum who on the one hand say our flesh and sinful nature has been dealt with and yet contradict themselves by saying we cannot keep the law, the bible shows that it is possible to be blameless in observing God's commands, and this makes us righteous in the sight of God:

Luke 1:6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.
Mark 10:20 "Teacher," the man replied, "I've obeyed all these commandments since I was young."

We love God by keeping his commands, and it is not difficult to do so:
1 John 5:3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

I think most Christians are talking about the old man being crucified and the Spirit as doctrinal concepts not as experience. Because if you have the experience you will not be able to say that we cannot do anything, for with God all things are possible.
The Bible says that the problem of our sinful nature has been dealt with and we have been given the gift of the Spirit of life who gives us the power to live victoriously, and we are under God's grace to overcome our shortcomings and failures.
Therefore we are able to obey God's commands, they are not burdensome for us, both the heart intent of it and the outward practice.

A person who cannot keep Gods commands is not a Christian, they are a person who has not been crucified to deal with their 'old man' (not been water baptised) and not received the Spirit (Spirit baptised).

 

[DHC]

It is really easy to know. Gentiles are under the covenant God made with Noah and his descendants (that's you and me also) - Genesis 9:9. Here it prohibits eating blood and murder. These are the first two, and one is also repeated in Acts 15.
The Bible reveals more as we go on through the old testament and new testament. Gentiles must keep about 8 commandments plus the two greatest commandments on love. They include laws against idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality, blasphemy, strangled animals and blood, and the two greatest commandments. Ones about Sabbath, circumcision, unclean meats , tithing, etc, gentiles don't have to keep.

Keeping the commandments is a condition for entering life. But one's justification is not based upon keeping the commandments perfectly, that is why we are under grace, but it is possible to observe all the Lord's commands blamelessly, but not possible to be without sin or keep the law perfectly:
Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Matt 19:17 - there is no real life without obedience. There must be observance of God's laws to win eternal life, not merely in an outward way but from a pure motive. Faith, is belief in action, and true obedience by keeping the law is the outcome of true faith.

There are a few problems with a view that gentiles don't have to keep any laws. One is that the old testament such as Genesis 9:9, clearly gives laws for mankind under the covenant that God made with Noah and his descendants (that's every person on the face of the earth). Another is that Jesus said we must keep the commandments to enter life.

The meaning of being "under grace" has no meaning if we do not have any laws to keep. If we have no laws to keep, then there is no laws to break, and if no laws to break, we don't need God's grace. Sin is breaking the law of God (1 John). If we do not sin by breaking the law of God, we have nothing to confess. So the purpose of the law is to continually turn us to Christ. We must live a perfect life to enter heaven (or the New Jerusalem, more specifically), this can only be accomplished by having a righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees (Matt 5:20), which is accomplished by abiding in Christ who was the one who fulfilled the law perfectly.

We can be like Paul who delighted in God's law in his inner man (Rom 7:22) - the Spirit causes us to love God's law and be obedient to it. No one has ever been saved by faith alone without obedience, only by faith and obedience.

Hello James.

Good answer and one I do feel compelled to debate this post of yours with you.

Keeping the commandments is a condition for entering life. But one's justification is not
based upon keeping the commandments perfectly

Given your list of some eight commandments plus the two great commandments (love) in Leviticus.
We run headlong into a serious shortfall using the commands you listed with the 'deeds of the flesh'.
Paul's list far exceeds the constraints of the commandments that you indicated James.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry,
sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying,
drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned
you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul has included 'sorcery' which you did not address, no sorcerer will be in heaven.
Paul cited 'drunkenness' which you omitted, drunkards also have no place in heaven.
Paul mentioned 'jealousy' though you did not even mention, they will not be upstairs.
Paul would have included 'gambling' and gamblers are not players in heaven.
This list would be almost endless as the deeds of the flesh are endless and creative.

In fact James, the list Paul has given us far exceeds the legal requirements of the law.
Paul is not only effectively place the entire law system on our shoulders. Paul is
constantly adding innumerable other offences that the law omits. Such as not using
foul language, coarse joking, and numerous other practices of the flesh. Did I mention
kidnapping, child prostitution, pornography, fraud, or even greed.

So the commandments themselves are deficient in dealing with the corruption of the flesh.
No sins of the flesh were ever really met by the commandments, the law only condemns.
The law effectively partly convicts of sin but the true problem has always been our flesh.

Try to keep the eight plus two and you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Your theology must deal with the problem of the flesh, we do not put lipstick on
the pig.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

Good answer and one I do feel compelled to debate this post of yours with you.


Given your list of some eight commandments plus the two great commandments (love) in Leviticus.
We run headlong into a serious shortfall using the commands you listed with the 'deeds of the flesh'.
Paul's list far exceeds the constraints of the commandments that you indicated James.

Galatians 5
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry,
sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying,
drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned
you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul has included 'sorcery' which you did not address, no sorcerer will be in heaven.
Paul cited 'drunkenness' which you omitted, drunkards also have no place in heaven.
Paul mentioned 'jealousy' though you did not even mention, they will not be upstairs.
Paul would have included 'gambling' and gamblers are not players in heaven.
This list would be almost endless as the deeds of the flesh are endless and creative.

In fact James, the list Paul has given us far exceeds the legal requirements of the law.
Paul is not only effectively place the entire law system on our shoulders. Paul is
constantly adding innumerable other offences that the law omits. Such as not using
foul language, coarse joking, and numerous other practices of the flesh. Did I mention
kidnapping, child prostitution, pornography, fraud, or even greed.

So the commandments themselves are deficient in dealing with the corruption of the flesh.
No sins of the flesh were ever really met by the commandments, the law only condemns.
The law effectively partly convicts of sin but the true problem has always been our flesh.

Try to keep the eight plus two and you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Your theology must deal with the problem of the flesh, we do not put lipstick on
the pig.

Hello DHC I appreciate your attempts to highlight the difference between Moses's law and new testament deeds of the flesh. God's law is on the objective side, and the deeds of the flesh are on the subjective side. Sin is in our members, and the law of good in our mind desires to keep the law but is defeated by the sin in our flesh. That is why we need the Spirit which is stronger than sin and the flesh. Drunkenness is covered by the law against idolatry, pornography is covered by adultery, jealousy is covered by the law on covetenuous. All of the fleshly deeds are covered by Christ's command to deny ourselves, and to love God and love one another. There is no deed of the flesh which is not covered by one of the commandments. Plus, gentiles have a moral compass, their conscience, given by God, which tells them right from wrong.
You are talking about the problem of the flesh, but the flesh has been dealt with already. This was an accomplished fact 2000 years ago, and is applied to us today by the Holy Spirit, enabling us to live righteously by keeping the law The Bible says we are crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20), we have died to sin (Rom 6:2). Romans 6 says we have become slaves to righteousness. This means previously we could not help sinning (slave to sin) but now, we cannot help but be righteous by keeping God's law.

"Try to keep the eight plus two and you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." is contrary to what Christ said in Matt 19:17 "But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments".
Matt 5:20 "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Hebrews 12:14 "Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord"
Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

If there are no laws to keep, there is no accountability for it, there is no sin which is breaking the law, there is no need for grace, justification, or for the power of the Spirit, there is no need to be crucified with Christ, and there is no need to be pure or to be holy.

“This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3)
John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments"
1 John 2:3 "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands."
1 Cor 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts."

Faith and obedience go hand in hand. We obey God's commandments by faith. Heb 11:8 "It was by faith that Abraham obeyed...."

The phrase "not under law but under grace" in Rom 6:14 is misinterpreted often, to mean we are not under any law. But Paul counters this idea with Rom 6:15 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!" Not under law refers to the law of Moses, but Christians are under the law of Christ (Gal 6:2), and have obligation and duty to obey the commands of Christ, from love and grace, and transgression of this law is sin, and punished by God as a father punishes his disobedience children, although God does not remove His love, nor His Spirit or promise of salvation from them.

2 Timothy 3:17 the law is profitable for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:17)

The law is not brought to nothing by faith but rather upheld: - Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. (Rom 3:31)

 

[Barny]

You believe that Christians cannot sin, which means you believe Christians keep the law perfectly, because sin is breaking the law.

Actually it was Jesus who kept the law perfectly and we Christians benefit from what Jesus did for us.

Note how you avoid the scriptures which state that Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Instead, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

You fail to see that the physical body is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6), and thus, like doubting Thomas, you reject what God has promised us unless you can see physical proof, in the form of perfect works of the law as evidence that one is righteous. Hence you continue to preach the old ministry of condemnation/death that had been replaced by the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/Righteousness, 2Cor 3:7-11. You continue to judge righteousness by physical works of the law, regardless of the fact that the physical body is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

As the physical body has already been crucified for sin, why would you then continue to judge it? It's already dead (by faith)! It was put to death for sin, Rom 8:10.
Or are you looking for physical evidence, like doubting Thomas did. If so, then you have failed to see that Christians walk by faith.

You fail to see that it's Christ's sacrifice that sanctified us (Heb 10:10.), and perfected us (Heb 10:14). Christians are complete in Christ ( Col 2:10.), but you deny this until you see physical proof of perfect works of the law.

Clearly the legalistic doctrine you follow suggests that anybody with deathbed salvation shouldn't even have bothered with it, because without perfect works of the law to accompany them, they're lost.

Your view that perfect obedience to the law is required for salvation contradicts scripture, John 3:16. Gal 2:16, etc.

Only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25. Christ's sacrifice does not cover any future sin. This contradicts your claim that Christians have limited forgiveness available to us, hence we need to become perfect in obedience or else we're lost. You have been unable to give any scripture specifying what these forgiveness limits are.

And contrary to some on this forum who on the one hand say our flesh and sinful nature has been dealt with and yet contradict themselves by saying we cannot keep the law, the bible shows that it is possible to be blameless in observing God's commands, and this makes us righteous in the sight of God:

Luke 1:6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.
Mark 10:20 "Teacher," the man replied, "I've obeyed all these commandments since I was young."

Let's consider a couple of others of those who kept the law?

Phil 3:4-10
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Matt 19:20-21
The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.

Both these scriptures support each other. Both individuals were blameless regarding the law and yet both acknowledged it did nothing for them. Both heard the gospel message to follow Jesus, and one of them did.

I think most Christians are talking about the old man being crucified and the Spirit as doctrinal concepts not as experience. Because if you have the experience you will not be able to say that we cannot do anything, for with God all things are possible.

The Bible says that the problem of our sinful nature has been dealt with and we have been given the gift of the Spirit of life who gives us the power to live victoriously, and we are under God's grace to overcome our shortcomings and failures.

Like doubting Thomas, you refuse to see that it was Christ's sacrifice that gave us the victory. Instead you look for physical evidence before you will believe. I seen this from others who follow the same doctrine that you do. They proclaim that one day they will eventually reach the stage where they can keep the law perfectly. They even claim of having gone through periods where they were able to do it, but then slipped up.
Unfortunately, all of them did not see what Christ had already done for them.

A person who cannot keep Gods commands is not a Christian, they are a person who has not been crucified to deal with their 'old man' (not been water baptised) and not received the Spirit (Spirit baptised).

The lukewarm doctrine that you preach contradicts scripture. You have consistently been unable to answer the many contradictions your doctrine has with God's word.
We simply cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer works

 

[james1523]

Actually it was Jesus who kept the law perfectly and we Christians benefit from what Jesus did for us.

Note how you avoid the scriptures which state that Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1 Tim 1:9
Instead, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

You fail to see that the physical body is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6), and thus, like doubting Thomas, you reject what God has promised us unless you can see physical proof, in the form of perfect works of the law as evidence that one is righteous. Hence you continue to preach the old ministry of condemnation/death that had been replaced by the much more glorious ministry of the Spirit/Righteousness, 2 Cor 3:7-11 You continue to judge righteousness by physical works of the law, regardless of the fact that the physical body is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ) because of sin, Rom 8:10.

As the physical body has already been crucified for sin, why would you then continue to judge it? It's already dead (by faith)! It was put to death for sin, Rom 8:10.
Or are you looking for physical evidence, like doubting Thomas did. If so, then you have failed to see that Christians walk by faith.

You fail to see that it's Christ's sacrifice that sanctified us (Heb 10:10.), and perfected us (Heb 10:14). Christians are complete in Christ ( Col 2:10.), but you deny this until you see physical proof of perfect works of the law.

Clearly the legalistic doctrine you follow suggests that anybody with deathbed salvation shouldn't even have bothered with it, because without perfect works of the law to accompany them, they're lost.

Your view that perfect obedience to the law is required for salvation contradicts scripture, John 3:16. Gal 2:16, etc.

Only past sin was remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25. Christ's sacrifice does not cover any future sin. This contradicts your claim that Christians have limited forgiveness available to us, hence we need to become perfect in obedience or else we're lost. You have been unable to give any scripture specifying what these forgiveness limits are.

You believe Christians cannot sin. I believe Christians can keep the law perfectly. We both believe the same thing on this point. You just haven't realized that when John says Christians cannot sin, he means they can keep the law perfectly, because sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4). You take issue with those who say they can keep the law perfectly, but you also say that Christians cannot sin - this seems a bit contradictory. If Christians cannot sin, it means they cannot break God's law.

Jesus said if we want to enter life we need to keep the commandments (Matt 19:17). Why are you ignoring the words directly from Christ's mouth?
I do not deny that Christians walk by faith, but I maintain that faith is believing and obedience to God. Heb 11:8 - by faith Abraham obeyed.
We can't really understand what faith in Christ or love for Christ is unless we see it is connected to obedience to God's law.
Your doctrine says that faith is believing Jesus is Lord (even demons believe that), but there is no law to keep so you can live your life however you want. That is not living faith, that is not living in the kingdom of God, that is not Christianity (which has laws - every kingdom has laws, even God's surprisingly ).

On a side note - "deathbed salvations", they are rare, and even of the few that happen, I am skeptical that most are genuine. If there is such a thing, it is probably people turning to God out of fear, they want a spiritual life insurance policy, they want the best of both worlds, a good life on earth and a home in heaven too, or they realize what they should have done 20 or 30 years before. God is Sovereign, He gives people plenty of time to turn to Him, the gospel has gone out everywhere, people don't have excuses. We don't have any excuses for rejecting God's law, by using the example of the thief on the cross, the little house on the prairie, or the tribe in the jungle that has never heard the gospel, or some hypothetical "deathbed salvation". Instead of using hypotheticals (which do happen, by the way, I'm not denying that), why not consider what is plainly revealed in the whole of scripture? A person who is forced to use hypothetical situations to prove their argument, is a person who doesn't have any clear scripture to support their doctrine.

Let's consider a couple of others of those who kept the law?

Phil 3:4-10
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death

Matt 19:20-21
The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.

Both these scriptures support each other. Both individuals were blameless regarding the law and yet both acknowledged it did nothing for them. Both heard the gospel message to follow Jesus, and one of them did.

This refers to Paul's keeping the law by external observance, before he found faith in Christ. Now that he found Christ, he kept the law inwardly by the law written on his heart, he had found a better righteousness.
Rom 2:29 "No, a person is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, brought about by the Spirit, not by a written law." Rom 2:15 "They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right." It is the same law Barny, if the written commandment says "do not murder", the law written on the heart also says "do not murder". What is knowing Christ? To know Christ is to keep His commandments: 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Like doubting Thomas, you refuse to see that it was Christ's sacrifice that gave us the victory. Instead you look for physical evidence before you will believe. I seen this from others who follow the same doctrine that you do. They proclaim that one day they will eventually reach the stage where they can keep the law perfectly. They even claim of having gone through periods where they were able to do it, but then slipped up.
Unfortunately, all of them did not see what Christ had already done for them.

My posts all along have been about Christ's sacrifice giving us the victory. We are crucified with Him our old nature has been dealt with on the cross.... and it is for this reason we can now keep the law which is written on our hearts. If you say that Christians cannot keep the law perfectly, you are saying that 1) Christ didn't keep the law perfectly, because Christ is now our righteousness 2) the problem which prevented Christians keeping the law has not been dealt with 3) God has not given us His Spirit to give us the power to keep His law.

Regarding physical evidence, is there any other kind of evidence except physical? How about you show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by works. James 2:14-26 says that without works, you are foolish, your faith is useless, and your faith is dead. An idea of spiritual evidence or "no evidence required" is completely wrong. Reading through the gospels, Jesus always looked for and responded to physical evidence of a person's faith - their words, their actions. The woman who touched Jesus's cloak, the centurion who said "only say the word and my servant will be healed", the man who picked up his mat, and then walked, and man who stretched out his hand. The Samaritan woman who called herself a dog which ate the crumbs under her master's table. Salvation came to the tax collectors house when he repayed what he had taken. The prostitute was forgiven when she showed love by wiping Jesus's feet with her tears. There is no example of anyone being saved or healed by faith, without some sort of evidence. Faith and evidence/works go hand in hand, without works, it is not faith, it is just wishful thinking and imagination. Genuine faith always produces obedience and works, whether that is confession with the mouth that Jesus is Lord, or an eagerness to be water baptized, or helping a neighbor.

The lukewarm doctrine that you preach contradicts scripture. You have consistently been unable to answer the many contradictions your doctrine has with God's word.
We simply cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer works

It is not faith only or works only, it is faith shown by works. There is no mixing, it is clear cut, genuine and living faith, results in works. James 2:24 says we are saved by faith and works, and works here has no spiritual meaning, it is all physical and practical:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

 

[DHC]

Jesus said if we want to enter life we need to keep the commandments (Matt 19:17). Why are you ignoring the words directly from Christ's mouth?

Hello James.

I was reading your post to Barny and you said the following.

Jesus said if we want to enter life we need to keep the commandments (Matt 19:17).
Why are you ignoring the words directly from Christ's mouth?

Jesus was sent firstly to the Jews!

The Israelites that Jesus spoke to in this Gospel were subject to the Old Covenant
of Mt Sinai. Israel was a theocracy governed by God Himself, no other nation was
governed by God, James. Jews were the chosen people of God, their nation was a
unique nation with a divine legal system. Israel was given the seat of Moses, Israel
was given the Covenants. Israel had the Temple and the Levitical Priesthhood.

Israel was blessed and protected by God, Israel had defined borders. Israel had a
history stretching far back into ancient history. Israel had the Ark of the Covenant,
Israel had been released from Egyptian captivity. Israel celebrated numerous
festivals and feasts. Israel had prophets to warn and to reveal God's plans.
No other Gentile nation had any of the involvement that God had with Israel.

To place yourself under the Old Covenant by selecting a number of laws to follow
from the Jewish legal system. Is not something I would recommend you do James.
As far as I am concerned, to attempt to obey one of the laws requires that all the
laws are obeyed. Because the law is bound into the Covenant, Law and the Old Covenant
are in the same deal.

I have read about the Old Covenant in the books of Exodus and Leviticus. If I am not
wrong, I distinctly remember that one needs to be circumcised in order to enter into this
Covenant with God. Did not a Gentile need to be circumcised to be considered a member
of Abraham's clan?

James you were never raised under the Old Covenant. You were not raised under the
law of Moses either. Why would a Gentile want to become a member of the Jewish
nation?