Do we have freewill ? did we have freewill since the beginning ?

[twcstp]

You know, one of the things the Holy Spirit brought to my attention as I continue to seek God & Jesus Christ His Son is that there is a lot of debate & arguments erected only for the sake of debating & arguing against the truth.

It comes in many forms, but ultimately it comes down to the love of God.

For instance, some unfortunate souls know the scriptures through & through with limited understanding, and seek continually reasons to debate, argue, and prove against it; what they are missing is the Love of God.

What is free will in the Presence of the Lord? What is it? Since I know the Love of God is everything, then free will is truly nothing; what is in it? What does it do? What does it prove? Nothing at all. If free will is erected as a means to protect sin, of any kind, that is not free will, even the word structure 'free will' seems to have been something that came from the devil to cause us to separate from God.

What has my own free will ever gotten me, but to confirm me in rebellion against the Word of God and His Love? What is free will? A choice between what is good, of God, in His Word & Truth, or what is not? Hell! I can not see anything at all about free will that encourages anything other than rebellion, and what is rebellion, other than to despise and reject God's truth, His Word, His Commandments, His Son Jesus, His Holy Spirit, and .... His Love? God forbid.


That's why I'm saying this. There is so many arguments that are erected that truly hold nothing in them other than to fuel opportunity for rebellion & falling away. For example, the debates & arguments between genuine, God loving and God fearing men and women, and atheist or agnostics or whatever. 'Prove it, prove it..' Prove what? For God so loved the world that He Sent His only Begotten Son Jesus to die for the sins of mankind! What is there to prove? Jesus commanded us to not even be angry with our brothers without just cause, and to seek reconciliation even so, and to forgive even so, or WE would not be forgiven, to love God first, and to love one another second! Prove what? Nothing to prove. His Word says it all. Love. Love. Love. Be holy. Walk righteously. Walk by the Spirit and we would not fulfill the lusts and desires of the flesh. Exalt God in your life. Exalt God through your life. Share the love of God with all those around you. Prove what?

I have seen someone use on a letter to me to influence my vote for that year the word 'free will' to defend someone who is pro abortion and to abase someone who is anti-abortion, to keep abortion legal, and to prop it up under the satantic guise of 'free will' God forbid it for ever. Then comes the devil saying 'well she was raped,' to defend abortion! God forbid. Do you see what the devil is doing? The devil attacks an innocent woman, puts a seed in her, then uses filthy devices to cause the defilement of murder to flow from her belly, and then uses that to trap her! To trap those around her! To prop up his own device, abortion! All under the guise of 'free will.' Free will what? Free from who? From God's Will? GOD Forbid. Never.

 

[Bill]

No one is perfect before we judge others and take decisions correctly not base on anger or ones personal experience it must be done if God does it already, if God moves destiny, predestination, and God's will and you see he those things he's way. God does not need us because we humans make errors. I will say bill USA one of best governments of the world. Remember God's government is better and it was not David or Solomon. It is Jesus when he governs on Israel and on Zion.

I talk more advance way bill i'm sure you have analyze the politics and you know how the system works there Bill but USA has very powerful christian system. I know about the system I lived for along time in USA more than 10 yrs know them have many good friends wish them all good. After I left I studied alot of history and politics but unlike many I always check all the corners and viewpoints of all articles of politics and religion. Don't go normal or mainstream always seek God's viewpoint and God's viewpoint he sees more than we do. And on every subject of the bible God wants a special thing of each story of the bible. What Moses did and got desperate and hit the rock, when Elijah wanted to leave because he was gonna be tortured by Jezabel and Ahab, and Peter denied he's lord 3 times and shows we all fail for were sin.

People can say their just and perfect because they want it but their not no matter what they say. USA is one of the greatest countries in the world because of Jesus Christ. All this belongs to God.

But the promblem Bill is that if you want to be human because you repented and you been baptized and you do things been human and do God's will and live like jesus okay Bill. But will tell ya if you want to know Bill the personal mission God sent you. The one where God told you bill when you were heaven and he told to come here and I don't know you bill he told all of us and he told us differently our mission our purpose. He did do it, why. Remember God is a God of order and he doesn throw people in space randomly and good luck to you find the reason why sent without help and go do it. He is not that Bill he sent the bible to help, he sent the prophets and kings so we can copy them in the bible and live their lives so we can find the mission like they have. I will tell ya it is hard for we are all different some of us are shovels, some of us picks, some of us the bag to carry the dirt, and some of us other utensils God created to help his Garden grow !

And bill will continue in another post !

Lol .

God sent me . To not break the bending reed nor put out the flickering flame .

It would not be easy to count the multitude of times i have been to heaven with God the Father and back. Sometimes i do it a few times in a day.

You are right, you have no idea who i am.

 

[twcstp]

None of us really know one another, but God does. He knows us. When He is our life, and the center of our life, and we are rooted in Him and not in ourselves, we can best walk in His Will. We can serve the Lord our God, and through Him Jesus we best love one another in Spirit (by not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh & desires of the wicked heart) (living according to His Word and Commandments (New Testament!)), and in truth, which is walking in the Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

 

[Bill]

None of us really know one another, but God does. He knows us. When He is our life, and the center of our life, and we are rooted in Him and not in ourselves, we can best walk in His Will. We can serve the Lord our God, and through Him Jesus we best love one another in Spirit (by not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh & desires of the wicked heart) (living according to His Word and Commandments (New Testament!)), and in truth, which is walking in the Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Where your heart is so shall your treasure be.

Your love is in the Lord, and your treasure is Jesus

 

[Dylan569]

Returning to the OP: Do we have freewill? Did we have free will since the since the beginning?

Since this uses the pronoun "we", it is apparently in reference to our father Adam, the first man. The OP involves some of the most complex topics, it is difficult, but no matter how you approach it, you ultimately end up with "the problem of evil" and how do you explain it. No philosophy or theology has satisfactorily given an answer. I'd like to give an approach on free will some may find helpful, it is as with most subjects, that definitions and how we view the meaning of words is critical to accurate communication.

Do we have free will? No, we do NOT have free will, we have free agency. We obviously make choices, and they are not dictated from outside our persons so they are free. That is free agency which every person has. But free will involves our very nature, and our will is bound to our sinful nature, and our choices are always sinful, unless moved upon by the Holy Spirit. Martin Luther and his followers, and John Calvin and his followers are in general agreement here. Luther wrote Bondage of the Will and the followers of Calvin teach Total Depravity. J I Packer Describes this well -

The Distinction Between Free Will and Free Agency | Monergism

INABILITY: FALLEN HUMAN BEINGS ARE BOTH FREE AND ENSLAVEDby J.I. PackerThe heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? -

www.monergism.com

The second question in the OP, I take it refers to Adam. Adam had both free agency and free will. Once he sinned, he lost freedom of the will, he became a sinner. The day he sinned, he died spiritually, and eventually died physically.

The second complex subject involves defining and giving meaning to: fatalism, determinism and predestination distinguished from both fatalism and determinism.

Fatalism conceives of god or some other inscrutable power as decreeing the end, and then waiting till the appointed time to bring it about, regardless of human will or the prior course of events.

Determinism asserts that events are determined by the events that immediately precede them, which allows for the human will as a factor.

Predestination must be distinguished from both fatalism and determinism. Predestination is determinism plus the belief in a supernatural power that establishes the determining natural order, which includes the will. I find the following verses give an illustration of this:

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. It was for this that he called you through the gospel we brought, so that you might come to possess the splendour of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2Thess 2:13-14 REB)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

God predestined his elect to find salvation, BUT, he also predestined the means, (his gifts of repentance and faith) by which He accomplishes his purpose.

The "problem of evil" is a philosophical question regarding how the following three ideas can coexist: God is almighty, God is perfectly good, and yet evil exists. This is not a problem for the theist alone, atheistic philosophies struggle with this as well.

In spite of my clumsiness of expression, hopefully it will help stir biblical investigation into truth. The difficulty as I see the problem of evil, the truth of the matter involves delving into the mind of God, and we humans just cannot go there.

 

[Rhema]

What is free will in the Presence of the Lord? What is it?

Amazon.com

 

[Rhema]

Thank you Rhema if you study deep scripture the word plan exist in this versions of the bible I will tell ya rhema the word plan in hebrew is different and you search it. It is not expressed like we talk in english. In hebrew the word plan is

​

MAHESHEBETH – מחשבות​

BDB Hebrew: 4284. מַחֲשָׁבָה (machashabah or machashebeth) -- thought, device

The problem with Hebrew is that you have a single word that has, what, ten, twenty English possibilities?

So it becomes a free-for-all, where people choose whatever English word they happen to like, especially with scripture that was created out of thin air.

That specific verse Jeremiah 29:11 is not in our Bible (the OT that Jesus used). How did it get in to yours?

The Orthodox Study Bible

The FIRST EVER Orthodox Study Bible presents the Bible …

www.goodreads.com

Rhema

 

[twcstp]

Rhema, the question I asked really wasn't meant to be literal

I guess I'm at that point where I count free-will to be loss, and the Presence of the Lord to be gain. Personally, I don't want to be doing anything that goes against the Will of God. My will is to do His Will, with His Help.

 

[Rhema]

My will is to do His Will, with His Help.

And His will is for you to do your will without sinning.

Might the Westminster Catechism apply here?

Q. What is the chief end of man?​

A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.​

And that would include His creation.

Rhema, the question I asked really wasn't meant to be literal

Why do you think I'm supposed to read minds? May I suggest adding (rhetorical) after the text then?

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[twcstp]

And His will is for you to do your will without sinning.

Might the Westminster Catechism apply here?

Q. What is the chief end of man?​

A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.​

And that would include His creation.


Why do you think I'm supposed to read minds? May I suggest adding (rhetorical) after the text then?

Kindly,
Rhema

I don't, I was only saying it to lighten up the context. All I know is everytime I've seen free will used as a word phrase, it has been used in some type or form of rebellion and separation from God to justify something outside of God.

 

[twcstp]

At worst, I've seen free will used as a word phrase to justify abortions, and to derail the work of anti-abortion bodies. We all know the children are a gift from God, a Heritage of the Lord God Himself. Truly, nothing that God gives us is grievous but always blessed in every way. But then we see the devil working craftily through the deceptive words, 'free will,' to justify a demonic institution like abortion; honestly, if lawmakers were just, they would have removed even pornographic materials from the whole land rather than legalizing things that permit predators to target young men and women, children still right out of school, to pull them into lasciviousness, debauchery, and sexual immorality. God through His Word showed me that those are His children. None of this is free-will. It's bondage with delusional band-aids slapped on it.

 

[Rhema]

I don't, I was only saying it to lighten up the context. All I know is everytime I've seen free will used as a word phrase, it has been used in some type or form of rebellion and separation from God to justify something outside of God.

That's why I suggested the book to inform on the issue of the Will and one's Freedom to choose, but all I know is that I have never seen free will used as a word phrase to justify rebellion or separation from God (i.e. sin). Not even in the philosophy classes that I took in college.

Free Will was basically used in contract to Determinism, and Determinism was used to justify sin, i.e. the Devil made me do it (my actions were pre-determined). Of course today's Devil is DNA (as understood by the unwashed masses).

Free Will is the basis for modern jurisprudence and penal consequences. If there is no Free Will, then no one can be held accountable for his or her actions.

None of this is free-will. It's bondage with delusional band-aids slapped on it.

Then as you are a Determinist (everything being the result of bondage) so how could sin ever be punished? There was nothing that you or anyone else could do about their actions.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[twcstp]

nevermind.

 

[Rhema]

nevermind.

Kind sir, it was never my intention to stomp on your views, or drive you away.

And describing my experience doesn't invalidate yours, so why would you reply in such a dismissive manner?

There is a widespread belief within the Evangelical community that people sin because they are in bondage and have no other choice.

I think this belief is important to discuss (if you so wish) given this scripture verse:

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.​

(Hebrews 12:3-4 KJV)

While I'm not completely sure what the author means here, there is some indication that people are to use their free will to resist and strive against sin. Why give this instruction if bondage rules supreme.

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[emanuel88]

We have freewill and it is limited the reality of it all is that if I ask you if you have freewill ? is that the majority will say they didn't realize they had freewill and don't know what to do with it ?

That's reality of people around the world. You limited freewill but still gave you freedom to do with your life what you want to do and do it all wrong because you didn't know you can choose but all the decisions you amde buy a can of soda, go to the cinema, go to work, and live your life in bondage. You had thousands and thousands of decisions to do and you did and they were different. The promblem is that people because they want more they wil lie to themselves they will ! God let me one lane and one path of my life to buy things and do things but I awlays repeat they won't say they did go buy movies or drinks and have a good time, God didn't give a me choice but in your life the doctor ask you opinion to decide for medicine he wanted prescribe you alternatives medicine to you, your mom let you decide go buy the toy you want the majority of you can choose so many things their is diversity in all malls, and you choose to do whatever you want in the internet.

The reality is that other people in the world like in Africa, China, and India still have people living in tribes and don't technology don't have the fortunate things you have. You do choose and thanks to people who were in the 1950's realize that they also had limited life and they wanted thier children to have better future than their time. They told ya to finish school and get to college becuase back in those days you did finish your college you did have chance to live your dreams and do everything. But today government has realize that through era's people who achieve college didn't pursue anymore and they are faulty and finish their carrer they don't change they become sinful and ungrateful people. They realize to take away and make life hard on you to make you realize what type of person you are like all of society is !

And if you look today see those people who have finish college I know hundreds of my friends have college have no job ! And they do this in your life, government does only for you to realize what type of person you are and how to find yourself and be the person you want to achieve ( This about the world that wants people to have the mindset to achieve their dreams but to give it all to the world their is difference from God's ) You leave college as a dropout and discover you never needed the world and you hvae an idea to create the best business ever and you make it. You don't thank God you don't thank your family you worked and suffer. And you did but you still give all your money and work to government and the system and still you do what they want and let them decide and the worst still be fooled by the world. The christian who has done all make his business succeed and thanks God and put his will to God and puts things in God's hands and doesn't give credit to governemnt or to schools but himself and his God. That's the good one you should do that you deserve it.

 

[emanuel88]

People their are traps in life and you don't know it your life has been planned by governments and your parents do it because they continue with governsment system to work for them and don't work for yourself you can find that you worked you whole life for government and others but not for yourself and you realize after working 20 years for the man in the office he made millions out of you and you got paid but still the people in office and corporation win more and are ungrateful. And you gave your time, you gave your families time to them, and you did nothing for you !

People God have many choices he gave you the choice from one you are born in this world to speak and be a baby, when your child your parents give you choice to go buy toys and have movie, when you in school you decide if you want to be a doctor or lawyer, when your in highschool meet a girl and find the love of your life, when you leave college be the smart one that changes his destiny and wants to make a business make his dreams come true, and when your old decide how you want to die with family, alone or with someone.

Lets see I will make simple 12 decisions you can make but guess what in your life you will make more 100,000 decisions you do't know you made or if you phone operator and talk to so many people you will ahve 300,000 to 400,000 to make if you live to 82 years old. See all that ! You can decide people you do get freedom and you have freedom to choose and believes yourself lucky God gave you all those decisions. No that thing that many write here and say God didn't give them a solution their wrong. And do thigs because they want to blame God he didn't give them choice ?

There are more people who didn't have what you have and didn't work their people in Africa who worked thier whole life doing one thing in their life making pottery, hunter, or fishermen and suffer more than you and they didn't have that and had less than 10,000 choices of their life. In China slaves had less than that if they were not free person and worst of it all they had indeed no choice and died. India millions had the same fate as those slaves and worst they had no choice and did not have good life at all and had a bad life of been beating up and they did not have education and didn't know they had choice and they were important. This world is not fair.

But you don't qualify that you who read this don't have that you did have good things and you do have a choice if they ahd what you had they will be grateful and merry with God and thank him for the choice. No you can do something you can do anything you want and live the happy life if you pray for God and search it. Don't give me a no or God didn't give me anything and I got it all myself and he didn't give me choice the pyschologist and doctors who write that down and say they were not given a choice is that they don't want to take responsibility of themselve and change. You can change and if you pray to God and want to do it you can have it.

 

[twcstp]

I wasn't being dismissive. I typed out a response but found that I didn't have concrete knowledge to back it all up, and I prefer not to leave messages, posts, or remarks that would upset the truth with any sort of falsehood, and so I deleted my original post and typed out 'nevermind' instead. Better for me not to misinform anybody whatsoever. In Jesus Name, Amen.

 

[emanuel88]

BDB Hebrew: 4284. מַחֲשָׁבָה (machashabah or machashebeth) -- thought, device

The problem with Hebrew is that you have a single word that has, what, ten, twenty English possibilities?

So it becomes a free-for-all, where people choose whatever English word they happen to like, especially with scripture that was created out of thin air.

That specific verse Jeremiah 29:11 is not in our Bible (the OT that Jesus used). How did it get in to yours?

The Orthodox Study Bible

The FIRST EVER Orthodox Study Bible presents the Bible …

www.goodreads.com

Rhema

Rhema the reality of it all is that when God told his prophets or Moses we were not their and we lost the way of talk back then some people of the tribe of Israel have it today, but God goes inside of his prophets and talks to them in their mind. What he meant when he told them they said to Israel and what time has passed we read it wasn't the same as we see the world today. The reality Rhema is that perhaps he did talk with some prophets and did tell them to do all of them because of the circumstance humanity does not know and Judaism says something in the bible they are not sure which way were told and if all definitions were said or some chosen ones where and God told the prophet to say it includings those definitions or not sure.

But I assure the people in those time did do things when the prophets told them and Israel did obey it they did know what God meant when they had his presence among them with Moses. Unfortunately the miracle and the power of God and all his marvelous acts cannot be told in simple words we use on a piece of paper and can explain with all the details all that power becasue humans eyes and simple words from humans with fears and small hands and they did not know science cannot comprehend all of God's powers. We are not worthy we are animals. Did he tell Israel with great details to do his will ? Yes Rhema he is God and he is perfect but the reality Rhema only God's true people can see the details only God's true people can see that in hebrew follow it how really God said and do it all like he wants because he wanted it to be done that way and he can make you do it becasue made the prophets and his real people do it and the secret way he really meant and not the people of this age modern world that only depend on technology to see things. Some scientist can see with different visions x-ray and ultraviolet things we cannot see with the naked eye.


But God chose people like Isaiah to let them see his Throne and know more than us, even though he wrote it and tried the best to tell it what he saw that God wanted him to see was more great, more splendor, and greatest to see heaven all of it in grandeur. Faith and the tests God give to his people in the time of Israel with moses were given and it was hard and not all given to his people but thats why God decided it that way. And if people today can find those secret ways and definitions of what they really meant they can. God decides it that way but he will test you and make it hard. But for people to find it they must be worthy and God will not give that to everybody not even modern day Israel knows because God will chose gentiles to know and some Jews too depending if they are worthy.

Today the modern city of Israel do not know what God says sometimes in prophecy because the language of prophecy God spoke is complicated and God could mean many things completed when prophecy is done. Will tell ya Rhena everything is planned by God and all of it is part of the plan of God.


And God will reveal answers of the past and people in the future will discover because prophecy of the end times of revelations it secrets and what prophets like Ezekiel and Isaiah and what Jesus will come to light and we see he did mean in many ways one word and it came out as prophecy complete in a different way we didn't realize he did meant in more definitions and more words all together God is being that secretly does that to show who are his people who knew and were told bu him in secret and those who didn't were not his people ( but still they didn't know but still are saved ) Some are chosen to know more like John writter of revelations and Isaiah, you will see in end times christians and jews won't know those things but prophets and chosen people by god will ! Apology do not wish to offend you all and tell you this because it is the truth. Their will be people God chose to know more than others for a reason we put in God's hands.

That in the end times they do things for God in secret becasue the devil will always try and stop it. But he will fail because prophecy says it and God's word is law. Their are more answers Rhema pray to god so you can find it.

 

[emanuel88]

I wasn't being dismissive. I typed out a response but found that I didn't have concrete knowledge to back it all up, and I prefer not to leave messages, posts, or remarks that would upset the truth with any sort of falsehood, and so I deleted my original post and typed out 'nevermind' instead. Better for me not to misinform anybody whatsoever. In Jesus Name, Amen.

Didn't notice Twcstp don't worry Twcstp you will find the answer you want to find the personal mission God gave I pray for it. I wrote all that about people who don't realize they do have a choice and it was not meant for you but some person I just check on this thread wrote something and he is from another forum following me and posted about God didn't give me a choice he's a type of doctor or pyschologist and put that their to help he did have a choice. Hope he's changes his ways.

 

[emanuel88]

I do wish help to rhema see God does talk in many ways and sometimes what he's definitions are were more.What he said to the people of Israel simply we were not there and God does speak in more advance way that he does reaches to his propose commandments to what he wants and make us change and rid of sin of our lives to be better servants and love to achieve to be his people of that old time it is hard. But even if we do make it and have love and faith he will not let us find out because he will tests us and he knows some secrets wont' be told becasue we are not worthy.