Do we still abide by the laws of the Old Testament?

[sergent]

When we read of the laws of the Old Testament, are we to follow them in todays day and age? Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them". But it also states how we should live by the spirit of the law in Romans 8:12, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." All of your input into this subject will be greatly appreciated!

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[spirit1st]

LOVE and Faith are greater laws . Which we are under and in.

The law of our LORD JESUS is Love and faith which are much more and the eternal laws of His kingdom and always were .

2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1Th_5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Jn_4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Love and faith are the Only two laws He writes in our heart [Spirit]

Rom_5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Rom_12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Many still preach parts of the laws that the Jews in the old testament were under. Because they refuse to live under the new covenant.

People make Lots of money preaching the old laws.
They do not want to be like this church.

Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

But I believe there are some who do not know any better . They were taught to preach this stuff and must to be able to stay in there religion.

Fear keeps them in it.


Gal_3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Jas_2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith:
People try to mix Law and Faith together. But it does not ever work.


1Pe_2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[DHC]

When we read of the laws of the Old Testament, are we to follow them in todays day and age? Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them". But it also states how we should live by the spirit of the law in Romans 8:12, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." All of your input into this subject will be greatly appreciated!

God Bless

Hello Sergent.

A Gentile roughly speaking is all those people outside the nation of Israel.
Gentiles are all non Jewish people.
So Gentiles were never associated with the Mosaic Covenant.
Scripture fully supports this proposition Sergent.

Since Gentiles were not included in God's covenant with Israel then logically,
Gentiles are not required to pursue a Law of Righteousness. Rather Gentiles
are grafted into the New Covenant established by Jesus Christ. We are foreigners to
the older covenants, the law, the temple, etc.

We Gentiles do not follow the teaching of the decalogue.
The decalogue is simply the 'ministry of condemnation'.
The law condemns period, a Gentile that believes in Jesus is not condemned.
We follow the teachings of Jesus Christ!

We are given the Holy Spirit when we believe in Jesus.
The Holy Spirit guides and teaches us all things.

I must also add that Spirit1st mentioned the two outstanding features
of the Gentile Christian doctrine. Namely 'Love' and 'Faith'.

The goal of the Christian instruction is Love from a Pure heart!

If your Love and Faith in Jesus Christ is constantly growing then
you have it all Sergent. Any attempt to obey the decalogue is doomed.
All that happens when one reads the law is an ever increasing failure
of the 'flesh' to obey the law.

To sum up the New Testament Sergent.

Walk by the power of the Holy Spirit with your focus on Jesus.

 

[Boanerges]

Just my thoughts; The Word could not be any plainer on the subject- we are not under the Law.

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Christ has come, and we have a new and better covenant.
We have a better covenant, we walk in the spirit, are led of the Spirit , empowered by the Spirit who leads and guides us in all truth. While He will not lead us into violating the Law, we are now free from following it. Those who are the born again sons of the Living God are now free from the tutorship of the Law and have moved into a restoration of what man had in the garden- walking hand and hand with the Living God Himself.



2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Not in those tablets of stone for we do not follow the ten commandments given to Moses

We are specifically not under the Law:

1. Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
   Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
   
2. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
3. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
   Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
4. Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
   Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
   Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
5. Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
   Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
6. Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
   Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
   
   I could of course go on in some length but it would be more efficient to sum it all up like this; We walk in the Spirit as did our great example Jesus Christ. Though God He walked as a man; He spoke only the Father's Words; He did only the Father's works; He did all these things in the power of and at the leading of the Holy Spirit. While we do not follow the Law, we do follow the One who leads us in all truth and righteousness- the very Spirit of the Living God. God Himself is Love (1Jn_4:8 ) and it is the very nature of Love revealed that violates no commandment (Rom_13:8, Gal_5:14 )- therefore, the ones it is only the ones who do not follow the Law that can ever hope to fulfill it. Selah.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

 

[B-A-C]

You will get many opinions about all of this. It has been a debated subject on TalkJesus many times.

Some say Gentiles aren't under the law. Yet the Gentiles were read the law and expected to follow it before the Jews ever inhabited Israel.
Jos 8:32; And as the Israelites watched, Joshua copied onto the stones of the altar the instructions Moses had given them.
Jos 8:33; Then all the Israelites—foreigners and native-born alike—along with the elders, officers, and judges, were divided into two groups. One group stood in front of Mount Gerizim, the other in front of Mount Ebal. Each group faced the other, and between them stood the Levitical priests carrying the Ark of the LORD's Covenant. This was all done according to the commands that Moses, the servant of the LORD, had previously given for blessing the people of Israel.
Jos 8:34; Joshua then read to them all the blessings and curses Moses had written in the Book of Instruction.
Jos 8:35; Every word of every command that Moses had ever given was read to the entire assembly of Israel, including the women and children and the foreigners who lived among them.

In fact Paul says we wouldn't even know what sin was if it wasn't for the law.
Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Jesus said...
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

You will get much disagreement about this but, some feel verses such as..
Rom 6:14; For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
..mean we are not under the law at all.

Other's, such as myself take them to mean, we are not under the penalty of law (death) but we are still obligated to try to keep them.
Also some teach, it means we aren't under any of the law at all, other's (such as myself) teach it means we aren't under the part of the law that has to do with confessing and sacrificing to priests and circumcision.

Paul called himself the apostle to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:13; But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
1 Tim 2:7; For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Yet he mentions the commandments and law in every one of his letters. His belief was that if you are loving one another, you are really keeping the law of Moses.
Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

John apparently felt the same way.
1 Jn 2:7; Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
1 Jn 2:8; On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
1 Jn 2:9; The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
1 Jn 2:10; The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

2 Jn 1:5; Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Both of these are similar to what Jesus said.
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

So the law of the Spirit, isn't really all that different from the law of Moses.

 

[sergent]

I completely agree! Thats a very interesting way to look at it though, but none the less, makes the most sense to me. Thank you very much

 

[farout]

I completely agree! Thats a very interesting way to look at it though, but none the less, makes the most sense to me. Thank you very much

We are still required to keep the Ten Commandments. They prove we are still sinners in need of our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive our sins.

 

[Boanerges]

Of course that was all they had been given to that point- Jesus was talking to practicing Jews- the Way to eternal life was not open till the cross; the church was not yet born.


As far as 1st John- it was a rehash of what Jesus was trying to tell the Jews- the answer was not law but Love.

If you try to keep the Law and are guilty of one point hell is your home as you are guilty of all.
If you follow Jesus commands: Love-forgive- Love then you will know His heart. For any other clarification one only has to read the Book of Galatians.

 

[DHC]

You will get many opinions about all of this. It has been a debated subject on TalkJesus many times.

Some say Gentiles aren't under the law. Yet the Gentiles were read the law and expected to follow it before the Jews ever inhabited Israel.
Jos 8:32; And as the Israelites watched, Joshua copied onto the stones of the altar the instructions Moses had given them.
Jos 8:33; Then all the Israelites—foreigners and native-born alike—along with the elders, officers, and judges, were divided into two groups. One group stood in front of Mount Gerizim, the other in front of Mount Ebal. Each group faced the other, and between them stood the Levitical priests carrying the Ark of the LORD's Covenant. This was all done according to the commands that Moses, the servant of the LORD, had previously given for blessing the people of Israel.
Jos 8:34; Joshua then read to them all the blessings and curses Moses had written in the Book of Instruction.
Jos 8:35; Every word of every command that Moses had ever given was read to the entire assembly of Israel, including the women and children and the foreigners who lived among them.

In fact Paul says we wouldn't even know what sin was if it wasn't for the law.
Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Jesus said...
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

You will get much disagreement about this but, some feel verses such as..
Rom 6:14; For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
..mean we are not under the law at all.

Other's, such as myself take them to mean, we are not under the penalty of law (death) but we are still obligated to try to keep them.
Also some teach, it means we aren't under any of the law at all, other's (such as myself) teach it means we aren't under the part of the law that has to do with confessing and sacrificing to priests and circumcision.

Paul called himself the apostle to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:13; But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
1 Tim 2:7; For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Yet he mentions the commandments and law in every one of his letters. His belief was that if you are loving one another, you are really keeping the law of Moses.
Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

John apparently felt the same way.
1 Jn 2:7; Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
1 Jn 2:8; On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
1 Jn 2:9; The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
1 Jn 2:10; The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

2 Jn 1:5; Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Both of these are similar to what Jesus said.
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

So the law of the Spirit, isn't really all that different from the law of Moses.

Hello B-A-C.

I found your post (# 5) to be rather confusing.

Here is the first line that I had difficulty with, you appear to be loose with
specific terminology.

"Some say Gentiles aren't under the law. Yet the Gentiles were read the law and expected to follow it before the Jews ever inhabited Israel."

The point is that one who is called a "Jew" in the Bible is not necessarily a chosen man of God, a follower of Moses and the prophets,
a member of the tribe of Judah, an Israelite, or even a Semite, but one who is a resident of Judea.

It is impossible to call a person a 'Jew' until the establishment of Judea.
Hence it is illogical to state that 'before the Jews ever inhabited Israel'.

Then you quoted the following verse as some form of validation of your point.

Joshua 8:35
Every word of every command that Moses had ever given was read to the entire
assembly of Israel, including the women and children and the foreigners who lived among them.

1) Gentile nations were never given the law of Moses only the 'assembly of Israel'.
This text distinctly identifies the party as the 'assembly of Israel'.

2) You need to explain the term 'foreigners' who lived among the Israelites.
What exactly is a foreigner to this covenant?
How can one be a foreigner in the first place in you understanding?

3) You also need to explain the term 'Israel' as I think it has two
distinct Biblical definitions. Note 'assembly of Israel' in your quote.

Looking forward to your reply B-A-C.

 

[B-A-C]

The point is that one who is called a "Jew" in the Bible is not necessarily a chosen man of God, a follower of Moses and the prophets,
a member of the tribe of Judah, an Israelite, or even a Semite, but one who is a resident of Judea.

For the purpose of this thread, the Jews were "the sons of Israel, the descendents of Abraham".
Jos 1:2 "Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.
Jos 1:3 "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses.
These were of course the next generation of those who Moses led out of Egypt. The children of those who followed Moses when he received the commandments on the mountain.

The land of Israel (I concede it wasn't called that yet) was called Canaan at that time. Canaan is the land God promised to Abraham's descendents.
It is interesting, although all of these people were living together in the same place. The Bible still differentiates the descendents of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc..)
from the rest of the population.

 

[B-A-C]

We can spiritually become Jews...
Rom 2:29; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Col 2:11; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

But only God makes certain people Jews physically.
Rom 9:7; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
Rev 2:9; 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.
Rev 3:9; 'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

What is interesting about this, is that at one time, Gentiles became followers of Judaism but following a physical aspect of the law.
Acts 15:1; Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Acts 16:3; Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

The obvious question here is... if Gentiles were never under the law..
why would the religious teachers of the time (the pharisees) and other Jews want them to be circumcised?

Gal 5:3; And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Why would he say this to the Galations.. (who were Gentiles).

 

[B-A-C]

How can one be a foreigner in the first place in you understanding?

An example of this would be Rahab and her family. They were not Jews, they were Canaanites, but they joined the Jews.
This would be an example of the foreigners amongst them when the commandments were read.

 

[spirit1st]

I asked the LORD once? Lord what does our Spirits mind take with it after we leave this body? He said ? Only those things we did out of pure Love. I said ,What happens to all those thoughts we now have in our flesh mind? He said they are gone once we leave those bodies.
He also said that why we remember our DADS and MOMS , because we really loved them .

 

[Glow]

You will get many opinions about all of this. It has been a debated subject on TalkJesus many times.

Some say Gentiles aren't under the law. Yet the Gentiles were read the law and expected to follow it before the Jews ever inhabited Israel.
Jos 8:32; And as the Israelites watched, Joshua copied onto the stones of the altar the instructions Moses had given them.
Jos 8:33; Then all the Israelites—foreigners and native-born alike—along with the elders, officers, and judges, were divided into two groups. One group stood in front of Mount Gerizim, the other in front of Mount Ebal. Each group faced the other, and between them stood the Levitical priests carrying the Ark of the LORD's Covenant. This was all done according to the commands that Moses, the servant of the LORD, had previously given for blessing the people of Israel.
Jos 8:34; Joshua then read to them all the blessings and curses Moses had written in the Book of Instruction.
Jos 8:35; Every word of every command that Moses had ever given was read to the entire assembly of Israel, including the women and children and the foreigners who lived among them.

In fact Paul says we wouldn't even know what sin was if it wasn't for the law.
Rom 3:20; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Jesus said...
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

You will get much disagreement about this but, some feel verses such as..
Rom 6:14; For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
..mean we are not under the law at all.

Other's, such as myself take them to mean, we are not under the penalty of law (death) but we are still obligated to try to keep them.
Also some teach, it means we aren't under any of the law at all, other's (such as myself) teach it means we aren't under the part of the law that has to do with confessing and sacrificing to priests and circumcision.

Paul called himself the apostle to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:13; But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
1 Tim 2:7; For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Yet he mentions the commandments and law in every one of his letters. His belief was that if you are loving one another, you are really keeping the law of Moses.
Rom 13:8; Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

John apparently felt the same way.
1 Jn 2:7; Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
1 Jn 2:8; On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
1 Jn 2:9; The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
1 Jn 2:10; The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him.

2 Jn 1:5; Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.

Both of these are similar to what Jesus said.
Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

So the law of the Spirit, isn't really all that different from the law of Moses.

B-A-C, I am confused. Are you saying that Jesus isn't the only way of salvation? Are you denying that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way? You seem to be saying that the only laws abolished by Jesus when He came were the "sacraments" and "ceremonies," when in fact, the whole purpose of the law was to show that we CAN NOT keep it.

"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made...." (Galatians 3:19)

B-A-C, I am very confused at your post. Why did Jesus come if we still have to try and, on our own power, obey the ten commandments? The whole purpose of the law was to reveal sin, and to show mankind how much the law was impossible to be followed in the first place in our own power.

By placing their faith in Jesus Christ, a person will receive the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will come into that person and MAKE them want to follow the law anyways, not for salvation, but because He will fill their heart with love and give them the desire to do so. However, trying to follow the law on our own willpower will not earn us salvation, since every person everywhere has broken every single commandment at least once in their lives, and if you break a single law, you are guilty of breaking the whole law.

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker." (James 2:10-13)

Please tell me I'm just misunderstanding you.

 

[DHC]

For the purpose of this thread, the Jews were "the sons of Israel, the descendents of Abraham".
Jos 1:2 "Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel.
Jos 1:3 "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses.
These were of course the next generation of those who Moses led out of Egypt. The children of those who followed Moses when he received the commandments on the mountain.

The land of Israel (I concede it wasn't called that yet) was called Canaan at that time. Canaan is the land God promised to Abraham's descendents.
It is interesting, although all of these people were living together in the same place. The Bible still differentiates the descendents of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc..)
from the rest of the population.

Hello B-A-C.

Once again you need to understand the terms used in the Bible B-A-C.

A 'Jew' is a resident of Judea, the term 'Jew' is wrongly ascribed to all members of the nation of Israel.

Bible translators up to the 18th century also made the same mistake.

That is why your sentence below is incorrect.

For the purpose of this thread, the Jews were "the sons of Israel, the descendents of Abraham".

The first Biblical usage of the term 'Jew' occurs in 2 Kings. Now this was about 600 years BCE.
Hence B-A-C there was a northern and southern kingdom in Israel at this time. So Judea which
is the southern kingdom has residents referred to as 'Jews'.

Older Bible translations misuse the term 'Jew'.

 

[DHC]

An example of this would be Rahab and her family. They were not Jews, they were Canaanites, but they joined the Jews.
This would be an example of the foreigners amongst them when the commandments were read.

Yes B-A-C that is correct, they joined the nation of Israel. They would also be required to be circumcised in keeping
with the Covenant God established with Abraham and his descendants. They would be forbidden from taking part
in Passover celebrations unless they were circumcised.

There we have it, the physical nation of Israel in a covenant by agreement with God.
If they were not circumcised they would be expelled from the nation.

 

[spirit1st]

Gen_32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[DHC]

Galatians 3
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

In heaven there is no gender, no nationality, we are all one.

No denominations, no theology, no philosophy and definitely no politics.

 

[bgsda]

Hello all, been away for a while on tj but glad to be back. I see lots of new members ,,mostbimportantly brothers and sisters. Yeah this topic is much debated but nonetheless VERY IMPORTANT as the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write in Romans 8:6-8. "For to be CARNALLY mind is death; but to be spiritual minded is life and peace" Dont know about you guys but I really strive for better life here and for eternal life and peace.

Next verse tells us how we can be hating God(emnity) and how we can be subject or obedient. Gid bless
G

Next s
Read the next verse to find out

 

[B-A-C]

B-A-C, I am confused. Are you saying that Jesus isn't the only way of salvation? Are you denying that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way? You seem to be saying that the only laws abolished by Jesus when He came were the "sacraments" and "ceremonies," when in fact, the whole purpose of the law was to show that we CAN NOT keep it.

Sorry,
Yes of course once we receive Christ we are free from the penalty of the law. The discussion above was in answer to the OP. Are Gentiles under the law?
The answer depends on whether you are saved or not. If you aren't, you will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:11; For God does not show favoritism.
Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God's written law. And the Jews, who do have God's law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn't make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in His sight.
Rom 2:14; Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know His law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15; They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
Rom 2:16; And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone's secret life.

As for the law being "abolished" when Jesus came, no I disagree.

Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
Matt 5:18; "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matt 5:19; "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17; "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

The difference is, Jesus paid the price of the penalty of sin for believers. No we can not keep the law. But does that mean we shouldn't try?
Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2; May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:15; What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

It comes down to your definition of a Christian. Some believe it merely means "I believe in Jesus" (some don't even say that, they say "I believe in God").
Other believe it means you are a follower of Jesus, you live liked he lived, you love like he loved. You stand for the things he stood for. You oppose sin and wickedness. You repent of your sins.
You quit living like you did before you became a Christian. You love God/Jesus (with all your heart soul mind and strength) more than you love the world. (even your own family).
It means you bear fruit in keeping with repentance. (Matt 3:8; )
I don't believe merely believing in Jesus will save you.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.

Unbeliever will be judged by their deeds. What deeds? The ones that are "against the law".
Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.