Does God create people to go to hell

[Bendito]

Answer me this one question my brother , what is Christ?

Christ is an untranslated Greek word that means " The Messiah...The anointed one and his anointing.

 

[Bill]

I simply asked what the Word says about the question. Does God create men to go to hell? In light of the Word, it becomes a ridiculous question.
John 3:14-17 (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.





2 Peter 3:9 King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Of course its a ridiculous question. But you would be amazed at how many Christains think that way.

I was at a Christian conferance in Michigan a few years ago. And after listening to a number of preachers talk about how exclusive it was to be Christian, i brought this question up.

To my amazement, many felt God did create many ppl in this manner.

 

[Bill]

Christ is an untranslated Greek word that means " The Messiah...The anointed one and his anointing.

Would it be safe to say, Jesus the Messiah, is our Salvation?

 

[Bendito]

Would it be safe to say, Jesus the Messiah, is our Salvation?

Absitively and posiloutly

 

[Bill]

Would it be safe to say, Jesus the Messiah, is our Salvation?

I think where we miss eachother is that you are way more technical in your thinking when it comes to what causes a person to be drawn to Jesus.

A good example of your thinking is the possessed person who comes out of the caves. Remember the darkness would want nothing to do with Jesus, yet the man, unable to talk, came out of the caves.

There is a Why factor involved. I doubt it was do to faith. In my experience with most possessed ppl. The host person , if a severe case. Recognizes the reaction of the darkness in them. The person would have felt the fear from the darkness. I believe this is what caused the man to come out of the caves.

However , the faith i am speaking of is the trust that one has, or the hope in forgiveness. Or hope in healing when we are first drawn to Jesus. This type of faith always draws us to Jesus, who is our Salvation. But we can only recieve that Salvation that is Jesus by recieving Him in our heart.

Does this clarify my position for you

 

[Dave M]

I think where we miss eachother is that you are way more technical in your thinking when it comes to what causes a person to be drawn to Jesus.

A good example of your thinking is the possessed person who comes out of the caves. Remember the darkness would want nothing to do with Jesus, yet the man, unable to talk, came out of the caves.

There is a Why factor involved. I doubt it was do to faith. In my experience with most possessed ppl. The host person , if a severe case. Recognizes the reaction of the darkness in them. The person would have felt the fear from the darkness. I believe this is what caused the man to come out of the caves.

However , the faith i am speaking of is the trust that one has, or the hope in forgiveness. Or hope in healing when we are first drawn to Jesus. This type of faith always draws us to Jesus, who is our Salvation. But we can only recieve that Salvation that is Jesus by recieving Him in our heart.

Does this clarify my position for you

sounds to me like you are trying to say people can come to Jesus know Jesus with out knowing his name is Jesus. Is that what your saying?

 

[Bill]

sounds to me like you are trying to say people can come to Jesus know Jesus with out knowing his name is Jesus. Is that what your saying?

Does the knowledge of Jesus save a person. Or does having Jesus in your heart save you?

The scripture all points to the latter.

Scripture states , "the Law will not save you"

Knowing the Word and having the Word in your heart are two separate things.

Certainly, knowing who Jesus is and having Jesus in your heart is best. But we can become like the Pharisees, holding the knowledge of the Word like a gavel to condemn others who dont think like we do. And not seeing the potential for all God's created children, in bringing them home.

Do you ever hear this phrase, "you dont know who Jesus is, therefore you are not saved"

Will we walk as the Pharisees or as a true child of God?

 

[Dave M]

Certainly, knowing who Jesus is and having Jesus in your heart is best. But we can become like the Pharisees, holding the knowledge of the Word like a gavel to condemn others who dont think like we do. And not seeing the potential for all God's created children, in bringing them home.

I concur, and seee people blinded by scripture sort of say, I have a saying dont let your theology get in the way of your relationship with Jesus. Most people dont get what I am saying

 

[B-A-C]

Certainly, knowing who Jesus is and having Jesus in your heart is best. But we can become like the Pharisees, holding the knowledge of the Word like a gavel to condemn others who dont think like we do. And not seeing the potential for all God's created children, in bringing them home.

Jesus didn't condemn the Pharisees because they followed thew law, He condemned them because they didn't.

Matt 15:2; "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Matt 15:3; And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Mark 7:5; The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
Mark 7:6; And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
Mark 7:8; "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

Mark 7:13; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

 

[Bill]

Jesus didn't condemn the Pharisees because they followed thew law, He condemned them because they didn't.

Matt 15:2; "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Matt 15:3; And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

Mark 7:5; The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
Mark 7:6; And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
Mark 7:8; "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

Mark 7:13; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Correct.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You are not hearing the scripture. Paul writes concerning pagans, that a person who does not know the Law, (or the Word) yet does by reason what the Law requires.

What does the Law requier. What does the Word require. What does Jesus tell us to do. LOVE. LOVE GOD WILL YOUR WHOLE SELF. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

If a pagan Love's deeply in his heart, Jesus is already present. The pagan may not consciencely know Jesus. But the love of God is engraved on his heart

The pagan is already "born again"

This scripture is where Jesus is talking about judgement. Where those who have gone to eternal life say to the Lord. "When did we see you" and the Lords responce. "When you did this for the least, you did it for me"

Brother no offense meant but this entire thought you are claiming is so against The Written Word of God.

Scripture clearly says there is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ.

Scripture also talks about an important fact that you must be born again.

Loving something does not get you saved even if it is loving the creator or the bible or cats and dogs.

Yes Love is Required but it is not enough.

Sinners love people.
Sinners feed people
Sinners help those in need

Those same sinners miss out on Heaven if they have not been born again into the Family of God.

Do you not understand you will be held accountable to your every word and if those words lead people a stray then it won't go well with you.

Blessings

 

[Bill]

Brother no offense meant but this entire thought you are claiming is so against The Written Word of God.

Scripture clearly says there is only one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ.

Scripture also talks about an important fact that you must be born again.

Loving something does not get you saved even if it is loving the creator or the bible or cats and dogs.

Yes Love is Required but it is not enough.

Sinners love people.
Sinners feed people
Sinners help those in need

Those same sinners miss out on Heaven if they have not been born again into the Family of God.

Do you not understand you will be held accountable to your every word and if those words lead people a stray then it won't go well with you.

Blessings

Yes i understand all that my friend, what you have said.

Let us look at what a sinner is . Seriously. One who doesnt follow the will of God.

In your mind , to be saved is to what . Acknowledge Jesus is Lord, with your lips.

But a person can scream from the highest mountain and scream from his lips that Jesus is Lord. And still not have Jesus in his heart.

It is best to have Jesus in your heart. And being in love with God will save you. Btw.

Faith alone - gong in wind.

But faith is not limited to physical knowledge and love isnt limited to the mind. Both are of the spirit and heart

 

[Dave M]

In your mind , to be saved is to what . Acknowledge Jesus is Lord, with your lips.

Brother Bill Jim said you have to be born again which is getting a new heart,

It is best to have Jesus in your heart. And being in love with God will save you. Btw.

yes he said that, the only way to do that is being born again

so I think the difference is what you guys might consider being born again, or should I say HOW you get born again

 

[Dave M]

Scripture also talks about an important fact that you must be born again.

@Bill you might of over looked this in Jims post, you guys seeem to be saying close to the same thing,

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

so I think the difference is what you guys might consider being born again, or should I say HOW you get born again

Hi Brother @Dave M

The following statement that Brother @Bill said is what or why I even responded.

Bill said (If a pagan Love's deeply in his heart, Jesus is already present. The pagan may not consciencely know Jesus. But the love of God is engraved on his heart

The pagan is already "born again")

It seems he is saying if you have love in your heart then you are already saved even if you did not get born again.

A pagan would not be a pagan if he was born again and saved, he would be a child of God then.

Blessings and Love in Christ

 

[Bill]

Hi Brother @Dave M

The following statement that Brother @Bill said is what or why I even responded.

Bill said (If a pagan Love's deeply in his heart, Jesus is already present. The pagan may not consciencely know Jesus. But the love of God is engraved on his heart

The pagan is already "born again")

It seems he is saying if you have love in your heart then you are already saved even if you did not get born again.

A pagan would not be a pagan if he was born again and saved, he would be a child of God then.

Blessings and Love in Christ

You are mixing apples with oranges.

Christains often have a certain criteria they feel has to be met to be born again.

What i am showing is outside of that criteria, yet is within the very scripture you read .

The only difference between us, is the criteria you are certain of, is not exactly the same as God Word.

Christian's, as a whole want the physical connection, to ensure a person is saved. This is not all of the teaching of scripture.

You shall confess with your mouth.

That is one. It is for the person who KNOWS who he is, and what he is. It is for the meat eaters.

But there are those, who do not KNOW the Word, and yet are saved.

Tell me, did Enoch KNOW Jesus. My answer to that is simple. Yes

Scripture states, NO ONE can go to the Father but through me. (Jesus)

The simple fact is, Enoch Loved God. You cant love God, without loving Jesus first.

A person can not have his heart circumcised with out loving Jesus first.

The scripture states clearly that a pagan who never heard the Law.
..... they can point to the substance of the Law engraved on thier hearts.

(I have to go shortly, so im paraphrasing)

 

[Bill]

Hi Brother @Dave M

The following statement that Brother @Bill said is what or why I even responded.

Bill said (If a pagan Love's deeply in his heart, Jesus is already present. The pagan may not consciencely know Jesus. But the love of God is engraved on his heart

The pagan is already "born again")

It seems he is saying if you have love in your heart then you are already saved even if you did not get born again.

A pagan would not be a pagan if he was born again and saved, he would be a child of God then.

Blessings and Love in Christ

You are mixing apples with oranges.

Christains often have a certain criteria they feel has to be met to be born again.

What i am showing is outside of that criteria, yet is within the very scripture you read .

The only difference between us, is the criteria you are certain of, is not exactly the same as God Word.

Christian's, as a whole want the physical connection, to ensure a person is saved. This is not all of the teaching of scripture.

You shall confess with your mouth.

That is one. It is for the person who KNOWS who he is, and what he is. It is for the meat eaters.

But there are those, who do not KNOW the Word, and yet are saved.

Tell me, did Enoch KNOW Jesus. My answer to that is simple. Yes

Scripture states, NO ONE can go to the Father but through me. (Jesus)

The simple fact is, Enoch Loved God. You cant love God, without loving Jesus first.

A person can not have his heart circumcised with out loving Jesus first.

The scripture states clearly that a pagan who never heard the Law.
..... they can point to the substance of the Law engraved on thier hearts.

(I have to go shortly, so im paraphrasing)

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You are mixing apples with oranges.

Christains often have a certain criteria they feel has to be met to be born again.

What i am showing is outside of that criteria, yet is within the very scripture you read .

The only difference between us, is the criteria you are certain of, is not exactly the same as God Word.

Christian's, as a whole want the physical connection, to ensure a person is saved. This is not all of the teaching of scripture.

You shall confess with your mouth.

That is one. It is for the person who KNOWS who he is, and what he is. It is for the meat eaters.

But there are those, who do not KNOW the Word, and yet are saved.

Tell me, did Enoch KNOW Jesus. My answer to that is simple. Yes

Scripture states, NO ONE can go to the Father but through me. (Jesus)

The simple fact is, Enoch Loved God. You cant love God, without loving Jesus first.

A person can not have his heart circumcised with out loving Jesus first.

The scripture states clearly that a pagan who never heard the Law.
..... they can point to the substance of the Law engraved on thier hearts.

(I have to go shortly, so im paraphrasing)

@Bill
You are trying to put old wine into a new wine skin.
You can not take events such as Enoch and make it part of the NT Covenant.

I ask , who is leading you to this thinking?

 

[Bill]

Hi Brother @Dave M

The following statement that Brother @Bill said is what or why I even responded.

Bill said (If a pagan Love's deeply in his heart, Jesus is already present. The pagan may not consciencely know Jesus. But the love of God is engraved on his heart

The pagan is already "born again")

It seems he is saying if you have love in your heart then you are already saved even if you did not get born again.

A pagan would not be a pagan if he was born again and saved, he would be a child of God then.

Blessings and Love in Christ

Ah, maybe i missread your letter. Its been a long day, and forget my own advise. Not to write when tired. Lol

 

[Bill]

@Bill
You are trying to put old wine into a new wine skin.
You can not take events such as Enoch and make it part of the NT Covenant.

I ask , who is leading you to this thinking?

Btw why cant we use Enoch. The OT only confirms the NT. Peter writes that the rock that Moses struck with his staff where water flowed, that the Rock was Jesus. Peter clearly shows that Jesus was present, even though the Israelites never recignized Him.

Recognizing with your eyes, knowing with your mind will never save you . Unless you bring Jesus into your heart. It is the only way to Complete salvation.

The pagan doesnt know Jesus, cant recognize Jesus in his life. Yet the one who does by reason, whose heart is engraved.

For it is written. "Come who my Father has blessed ..... I was thirsty, and you gave me water, ........ I was a stranger and you made me welcome ......... then the virtuous will say to Him in reply, "when did we see you a stranger" ........... "one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."

Matthew 25 : 31 - 46