Does God create people to go to hell

[Dovegiven]

This sounds absurd, but look at what we think scripture says about being saved . So is there something more?

If it is by faith alone , then only those with faith or a certain knowledge will ever be saved. Faith is the precursor to knowledge. And if only the final outcome is based on knowledge, why are not the fallen Angels not back in heaven.

It is because faith alone only brings us to Jesus . Faith alone will not take you to the Father in heaven.

It is faith that brings us to the door to knock. "Knock and it shall be opened" but we HAVE TO RECIEVE JESUS INTO OUR HEARTS. Sorry didnt mean to yell. Lol

But this is true, we have to find love in our hearts. It is what all of scripture is based on.

Faith alone is like a gong clanging in the wind. Paul says that. But he also says , faith , hope, and love . And the greatest of these is love.

Jesus teaches us "Love God" with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your spirit and with all your strength.

So where does those who never knew God come in. How can they be saved.

What is written in the New Testiment is this . For those who do not know the law, but are lead by reason to do what the Law commands, may not actually "posses" the Law, but they can be said to be the Law. They can point to the substance of the Law engraved on thier hearts.

You see, for even the pagans and all who do not know God are subject to Him. They are all His created children.

Just because we are privileged knowing we are Christian's, still does not give us the right to feel it is only "us" who are saved. Those who choose to think that way condemn themselves.

I'd say the idea of faith before knowledge is a problem. I need to sit down, being tired. OH, there's a chair. I will sit on it. I saw the chair first, then had enough faith it would hold me up. Then I put my faith in action and seated. Sure enough, it looked sturdy enough and was.

Once faith is employed, Peter wrote to add to that knowledge. Why would we need more knowledge? I say there's a learning spiral for humans. A cone, to stay a cone, must sit on it's tip and become ever wider, adding volume. A child learns a little then enters a spiral upwards to more advanced knowledge and experience, and comes back full circle to a higher level of learning. Even a child can teach a younger toddler why not to touch fire.

So there is responsibility for us Christians to ever grow in knowledge to teach (disciple) others to enter into that spiral of knowledge of God, that they too can live all the more by faith to please God.

God doesn't cause people to go to hell. People must follow Jesus to Heaven, or follow Satan to Hell which was reserved for fallen angels. It's "mouth" (gate) has had to be made larger for followers of Satan. Calvinism teaches somewhat along the line of predestination of some preselected people, but it's not from God. His will, what He prefers and works towards, is that all sinners repent and turn to Jesus. But the choice is theirs. He has declared His choice, but mankind must voluntarily believe to be saved. There is no group of people reserved for eternal life no matter their decisions.

 

[Bill]

Bill,
Slow down and please stay on one point.
All you do is add confusion to the thread when you take a quote on one thing and reply with it on something else.

Now lets stick to one point.
You claim if a pagan has love in his heart they are already saved even if they have not heard the Gospel or Know Jesus.

That is nothing but confusion and false truth.

Blessings

That is not what i said. What i said was knowing who Jesus is , inly with your mind is not good enough.

Jesus says, no one can go to the Father but through me.

Think of a doorway. To get to heaven, you must go through the doorway. Jesus is that doorway. You have to go through him. You have to recieve Jesus in your heart.

Scripture talks about the virtuous. Doesnt say they even know who the Lord was. When did we see you,

There is a ton of scripture. But you are missing it.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

If a pagan Love's deeply in his heart, Jesus is already present. The pagan may not consciencely know Jesus. But the love of God is engraved on his heart

The pagan is already "born again"

That is not what i said.

Its exactly what you said Bill.
If you were thinking something else when you wrote this then that is yet another thing.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Scripture talks about the virtuous. Doesnt say they even know who the Lord was. When did we see you,

Bill that is not correct.
Its a question of when did we see you? Not we don't know you.

 

[Dovegiven]

That is not what i said. What i said was knowing who Jesus is , inly with your mind is not good enough.

Jesus says, no one can go to the Father but through me.

Think of a doorway. To get to heaven, you must go through the doorway. Jesus is that doorway. You have to go through him. You have to recieve Jesus in your heart.

Scripture talks about the virtuous. Doesnt say they even know who the Lord was. When did we see you,

There is a ton of scripture. But you are missing it.

OK, please show your major scripture reference, making sure the context around it supports such a benefit for being virtuous. You will also need to supply more scriptures that back that up.

 

[Dovegiven]

You are not hearing the scripture. Paul writes concerning pagans, that a person who does not know the Law, (or the Word) yet does by reason what the Law requires.

What does the Law requier. What does the Word require. What does Jesus tell us to do. LOVE. LOVE GOD WILL YOUR WHOLE SELF. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

If a pagan Love's deeply in his heart, Jesus is already present. The pagan may not consciencely know Jesus. But the love of God is engraved on his heart

The pagan is already "born again"

This scripture is where Jesus is talking about judgement. Where those who have gone to eternal life say to the Lord. "When did we see you" and the Lords responce. "When you did this for the least, you did it for me"

Bill,

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. Acts 10:1-6 (KJV)

So there we have a pagan who is obviously living like a person you think must already have Jesus in his heart, and is saved. Yet, we read on to learn he and his family received the word preached by Peter, and believed, and were born again, then baptized in the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues, and baptized in water. That's typical of Christian outreach. God by His Spirit does plow hearts like a field being prepared for seeding. Cornelius got God's attention, and obeyed unto salvation in Christ Jesus.

Now it would be good for all of us to examine the place a man's love for others has towards his salvation, and exactly what Jesus requires of any man wanting to be saved. This is a long passage, but will explain why it is necessary for a man to respond to the invitation of Father God to approach Jesus. Look for the word "love" here to support your belief:
John 6:26-65 (KJV)
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[R. Roger Harris]

What exactly are you trying to say?

In Exodus 20:18-21 showed people where deathly afraid of God at Mount Sinai where Moses met with God. Even the apostle Paul wrote, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (Galatians 4:6). It seems that the gospel message of "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) seems to be missing from our personal experience, and people today are ignorant of their spiritual heritage. Remember, God is in complete control of Heaven and earth and all that is in them!

 

[R. Roger Harris]

OK, please show your major scripture reference, making sure the context around it supports such a benefit for being virtuous. You will also need to supply more scriptures that back that up.

We, as humans, can sin with our minds. Therefore, anything we do is never enough on our own terms. We need to submit our lives, body, soul, and spirit to our loving and Holy God.

 

[R. Roger Harris]

Ya know, Dr. John Barnett said in one of his sermons on youtube, that one of his professors taught scripture in a more profound way than he had heard taught before. So, his professor said his rule of thumb was for every year that the Lord allows you to live we are to read through the scriptures once for every year we are alive. This rule of thumb gave me a very clearer picture of what exactly God is wanting to tell us and wanting us to know about Him.

 

[R. Roger Harris]

Ya know, Dr. John Barnett said in one of his sermons on youtube, that one of his professors taught scripture in a more profound way than he had heard taught before. So, his professor said his rule of thumb was for every year that the Lord allows you to live we are to read through the scriptures once for every year we are alive. This rule of thumb gave me a very clearer picture of what exactly God is wanting to tell us and wanting us to know about Him.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

In Exodus 20:18-21 showed people where deathly afraid of God at Mount Sinai where Moses met with God. Even the apostle Paul wrote, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (Galatians 4:6). It seems that the gospel message of "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) seems to be missing from our personal experience, and people today are ignorant of their spiritual heritage. Remember, God is in complete control of Heaven and earth and all that is in them!

That would be false.
God is not in full control of this world and all that happens in it.

Blessings

 

[Dovegiven]

In Exodus 20:18-21 showed people where deathly afraid of God at Mount Sinai where Moses met with God. Even the apostle Paul wrote, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (Galatians 4:6). It seems that the gospel message of "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27) seems to be missing from our personal experience, and people today are ignorant of their spiritual heritage. Remember, God is in complete control of Heaven and earth and all that is in them!

I preached and taught "God is in control" a long time because I was taught that belief. I do believe God was in complete control of everything in Genesis 1&2, and whatever was before then, and will be again in the New Earth. However, He gave man dominion, letting dominion of things on earth be transferred. Well, man messed it up with the original sin, which brought curses from God. Later we learn Jesus took the keys to it all, but gave those keys to the Church, which was a symbol of power, authority, in His name.

Was God in control over the rebels drowned in the Flood? Would you drown a kid for rebellion? Was God responsible for the Jewish Holocaust? Is He in direct control of a serial murderer on a rampage? He directs cancer to destroy people? I say not at all. He is letting the wages of sin to be death, but letting man find remedy through Jesus Christ, not that arrows and pestilence won't happen around every person. He gave men the power of governments to deal with such things, but men don't always act on their God-given authority on earth. So it is we all live in this fallen world where a majority of people don't employ that authority well enough, yet in the name of Jesus we Christians have power to live and benefit at least according to this which Jesus quoted from in His wilderness temptation:
Psalm 91:1-16 (KJV)
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Living in the will of God is conditional. It doesn't just happen for anyone. David 'said' to God what he learned from God to be what was (and is for us today) available. Without such confessions and determination of habit in the presence of God, the confession of many is to blame God for all that happens against us. Here's an easier version:
Psalm 91:1-16 (ESV)
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say to the LORD, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”
3 For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his pinions, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.
5 You will not fear the terror of the night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness, nor the destruction that wastes at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.
8 You will only look with your eyes and see the recompense of the wicked.
9 Because you have made the LORD your dwelling place— the Most High, who is my refuge—
10 no evil shall be allowed to befall you, no plague come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways.
12 On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread on the lion and the adder; the young lion and the serpent you will trample underfoot.
14 “Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name.
15 When he calls to me, I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will rescue him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him and show him my salvation.”

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

I'd say the idea of faith before knowledge is a problem. I need to sit down, being tired. OH, there's a chair. I will sit on it. I saw the chair first, then had enough faith it would hold me up. Then I put my faith in action and seated. Sure enough, it looked sturdy enough and was.

Once faith is employed, Peter wrote to add to that knowledge. Why would we need more knowledge? I say there's a learning spiral for humans. A cone, to stay a cone, must sit on it's tip and become ever wider, adding volume. A child learns a little then enters a spiral upwards to more advanced knowledge and experience, and comes back full circle to a higher level of learning. Even a child can teach a younger toddler why not to touch fire.

So there is responsibility for us Christians to ever grow in knowledge to teach (disciple) others to enter into that spiral of knowledge of God, that they too can live all the more by faith to please God.

God doesn't cause people to go to hell. People must follow Jesus to Heaven, or follow Satan to Hell which was reserved for fallen angels. It's "mouth" (gate) has had to be made larger for followers of Satan. Calvinism teaches somewhat along the line of predestination of some preselected people, but it's not from God. His will, what He prefers and works towards, is that all sinners repent and turn to Jesus. But the choice is theirs. He has declared His choice, but mankind must voluntarily believe to be saved. There is no group of people reserved for eternal life no matter their decisions.

Why would people choose to follow Satan to Hell if it is such a horrible place like the Bible describes. No sane person would and if someone did he would need psychiatric help.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Why would people choose to follow Satan to Hell if it is such a horrible place like the Bible describes. No sane person would and if someone did he would need psychiatric help.

Actually it is through deception. Some don't know the truth and some don't care because again they don't know the truth.

satan is god of this world where deception runs rampant and viewed as the norm.

Where there is no light there remains darkness and in that darkness is confusion and acceptance of the darkness brings no hope.
Blessings

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Actually it is through deception. Some don't know the truth and some don't care because again they don't know the truth.

satan is god of this world where deception runs rampant and viewed as the norm.

Where there is no light there remains darkness and in that darkness is confusion and acceptance of the darkness brings no hope.
Blessings

If Satan is god of this world why is it our fault if we are deceived by a god.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

If Satan is god of this world why is it our fault if we are deceived by a god.

I said he is god over this sin cursed world and not thee one true God.

We all were deceive until we heard the truth of the Good News of Jesus Christ, then we choose one way or the other.

Everyone will hear of Jesus and Gods saving Grace. There will be no excuses on Judgment day.

You can make food your god if you allow.

 

[Dovegiven]

If Satan is god of this world why is it our fault if we are deceived by a god.

A reason so many people are in danger of hell is they don't believe there is a Devil, nor will they believe there is a place of torture like hell, but might dare hope there is a Heaven, some accepting that if every human gets to go regardless of behavior or decision. It's a poor example perhaps, but denying such things Jesus warned about would be like leaving your doors open day and night, believing your high crime neighborhood is a safe one devoid of evil people.

Much of this world is like ancient times when people just felt like they needed to appease some divine entity by keeping an idol image of whatever they suspect it is named, is represented by. Hindus fill their homes with such things in respect of some of millions of gods and goddesses. Many choices! But none of those is the right one if adding a false god to an image of our living God. Having an image of Jehovah is prohibited in the Bible anyway.

There is only one living contestant for the throne of God in Heaven, who was defeated by Jesus. He, Satan, is allowed to remain free, and is allowed to deceive nations to hold idols, remaining distracted from truth. He is the world's default "god" on the level of "idol", regardless of whatever his de facto followers name his de facto self. The situation requires Christians to obey such as Jesus' commandment to keep going to every person on earth preaching the gospel of Christ, and making disciples of them.
Mark 16:14-16 (KJV)
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Dave M]

Ya know, Dr. John Barnett said in one of his sermons on youtube, that one of his professors taught scripture in a more profound way than he had heard taught before. So, his professor said his rule of thumb was for every year that the Lord allows you to live we are to read through the scriptures once for every year we are alive. This rule of thumb gave me a very clearer picture of what exactly God is wanting to tell us and wanting us to know about Him.

Dr Barnett is awesome learn a lot from that guy

 

[Dave M]

That would be false.
God is not in full control of this world and all that happens in it.

Blessings

brother nothing happens with out God allowing it to happen, he is all sovereign. The devil is on Gods leash and does nothing with out God allowing it to happen

if God is not in control of this world how in the world does all the prophecy foretold in the bible come true then??

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

brother nothing happens with out God allowing it to happen, he is all sovereign. The devil is on Gods leash and does nothing with out God allowing it to happen

if God is not in control of this world how in the world does all the prophecy foretold in the bible come true then??

So if you ate corn flakes or eggs for breakfast it was Gods choice.
So why should we have doctors or police officers if its Gods doing?

Brother satan is not on Gods leash nor does God give him approval to do anything.

Scripture won't back that thinking Dave.
That thinking was sowed into the church long ago by the devil.

Why? Because you won't bother him if you believe God had a choice.

Blessings