Does God Love The Non-Elect?

[spirit1st]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Not a question of HIS LOVE! It is pure )Perfect Love3 toward all mankind!
It is a queation of us obeying Him And He cannot destroy His kingdom for beings that will not follow Him ,nor obey Him!
Rebellion Cannot be allowed!
Sin is the Very Worse thing to God, Nothing is worse and Nothing else can bring down HIS entire KINGDOM!It is far bigger than we know!

 

[hiselect]

John 3:16

Yes, whoever believes will be saved. There is nothing in John 3:16 that is at odds with the Bible's doctrine of election. Do you think one verse makes null another verse of the Bible? No way! The whole Bible is true! John 3:16 does not get rid of Eph 1:4-11 or John 10:26, for example.

That being said, I feel obligated to remind you that John 3:16 was not written in English. It was written in Greek. The English translation brings a lot of baggage with it because the words "so loved" and "whosoever" mean something different to you than John intended them to mean.

The word "so" in the Greek word Houto which means "in this manner". It does not mean intensely. You might have heard a teenage girl say that she loves her boyfriend sooooo much. But this is not how the Apostle John uses the word "houto".

You can see an example of this word in Acts 14:1 which states "they so spake that many believed". Obviously the word means "in this manner". Even more interesting is that in the Greek, the phrase "in this manner" comes before "God loved the world".

Thus, a literal rendering of John 3:16 would be "In this manner God loved the world..." In what manner? He gave His son to do such-and-such. For proof you can google this, or see a Strong's Concordance.

The verse in the original Greek is as follows (associated Strong's Number in superscript):

Οὕτως3779 γὰρ1063 ἠγάπησεν25 ὁ3588 Θεὸς2316 τὸν3588 κόσμον2889, ὥστε5620 τὸν3588 Υἱὸν[4] 5207 τὸν3588 μονογενῆ3439 ἔδωκεν1325, ἵνα2443 πᾶς3956 ὁ3588 πιστεύων4100 εἰς1519 Αὐτὸν846 μὴ3361 ἀπόληται622 ἀλλ᾽235 ἔχῃ2192 ζωὴν2222 αἰώνιον166

This could be translated literally as:
For in this way God loved the world: that he gave the unique son, so that all the ones trusting in him would not perish, but have eternal life.

So the verse is not saying that God is desperately in love with the world or that He intensely loves the world. The word "so" simply means "in this manner" or "in this way". It does not mean "intensely"

That being said, a second word that causes a lot to misinterpret this verse is the word "whosoever". It is important to understand that there is no Greek equivalent of the word "whosoever". That's right, there's no such thing as "whosoever" in Greek. The word "whosoever believes" is the translation of a Greek phrase. The phrase is "Pas ho pisteuwn", which literally means "all the believing".

Therefore, what John 3:16 is saying is that God loved the world in this manner, he gave His only Son to save all the believing. There is nothing in this verse about a universal desire of God to save everyone head for head. There is nothing about Christ dying for everyone. There is nothing in this verse that says everyone head for head has the ability to believe on the Son if they wish, for John 6:44,65 address that very issue. The verse says nothing more than that God demonstrated His love towards the world in such a way that it resulted in the salvation of BELIEVERS. Christ came into the world to save everyone who would, by the gracious working of God, put their trust in Jesus Christ.

The Son did not come for "whosoever", he came for "whosoever believes", Pas ho pisteuwn. You cannot rip apart the "pas" from the modifier "pisteuwn" because in the Greek language that is not allowed. The participle limits who the "pas" is. Only believers will be saved, and that is who the Father sent the Son to save.

As for 1 John 2:2, you need to understand the context. John was a Jew, writing to Jews, and he is simply saying that the Son's atonement was not for Israel alone, but for all the nations of the world. See the same thing said by the same Apostle (John) in John 11:51-52:

Joh 11:51-52
(51) He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
(52) and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

1 Jn 2:2 is not saying that Christ atoned for the sins of every single person head for head, for if that was true, all men would be saved. This verse is simply saying exactly what John 11:51-52, and Rev 5:9 say, that Christ's death purchased people to God out of every tribe, tongue, and nation (ie, the "whole world"). remember, Israel thought that the Messiah came to save Israel alone, but the Apostles kept correcting them that Christ was the Saviour of "the world", not just one nation (Israel), but all nations, every nation of the world.

Here is what Christ's death accomplished:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God out of every tribe and language and people and nation,

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

In that same Chapter, Christ says to some men "You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (v 26)

As for Heb 2:9 again you take it out of context I'm afraid.

The "every man" that the author of Hebrews is talking about is the men whom he describes in the very next verse as "the sons" (v11) who will be brought to glory by Christ's work. The English phrase "every man" is simply the word "Pas" in the Greek which usually means "some of all sorts", especially when the context calls for it.

The "all sorts" that is spoken of in this passage is these people that Christ is "not ashamed to call them brothers" "v12", and they are the "congregation that will sing your praise". Verse 13 calls them the "children that God has given me" (Christ speaking) Clearly, the Church, believers, Christians, God's elect, etc, are who are in view here.

A very simple look at the context of a passage will reveal that is teaches something other than what you asserted it was teaching. Plucking a lone verse out of context out of a whole passage is the worst way you can read the Bible. These verses simply do not say what you want them to say or what you thought they said.

If you disagree, please take the time to exegete the passages as I have done.

To make it clear:

Every single person who believes will be saved! Yes!

But the underlying truth of your salvation, that the Bible teaches, is that you believe because God did a mighty work in you to change your heart by grace and bring to you Himself because he chose you from eternity past as an object of His love, grace, and mercy. And all of this was for "the praise of His glorious grace" (Eph 1:4-11) God alone gets the glory for my salvation, and your salvation. You cannot boast that you were smart enough or more spiritual than your unbelieving friends. The reason you believe and not your neighbor is because God gave you grace. Salvation is all of grace and all of God!

Thanks!

In Christ,

Joe

 

[Bambi]

Hiselect

Ditto, and ditto again Joe.

 

[spirit1st]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I see GOD as Pure Perfect Love!

I also see hell as an act of love!

I do not think HE ever did one thing that was not out of LOVE!

Not hard for HIM to makec a NEW CREATURE out of us any of!

The NEW CREATURE HE makes has no flaws or problems!

Still I think some will never be Born -Again!
But I also believe HE has the Right to Do Anything HE wants with any of us! But has made Promises HE WILL KEEP!


1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


I trust the LORD to do as HE WILL?
I Cannot say for Sure !
But I know I LOVE HIM and desire vto serve HIM no matter what!

 

[hiselect]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Spirit1st you may want to look at the end of post #57 for a proper usage of 2 Pet 3:9 :shade:

I see GOD as Pure Perfect Love!

So do I, that's why I believe that God's love actually affects an outcome. He actually saves people. He doesn't try to save them, he actually saves them. His love for His chosen was so great he sent his son for them. Read the end of Romans 8, Paul talks about this exact thing.

Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

I also see hell as an act of love!

That's odd Hell is God's perfect justice and wrath and hatred poured out against sin and sinner, enemies of God who refuse to repent of their sins and who refuse to bow to God's excellency. Sinners and criminals who are in constant rebellion against Him, who never seek him.

Not hard for HIM to makec a NEW CREATURE out of us any of!

You're right, he can do this very easy. In fact, I'd say He has a 100% success rate. Every single person he chooses to make born again, are so. He is Almighty God and nothing can stop Him from accomplishing His purpose.

 

[spirit1st]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Maybe we just do not see this the same!

I believe He is trying everything ,other than forcing us!
Personal, I also believe hell is part of His trying!
So I see it as LOVE!
not punishment , But they do suffer!

 

[hiselect]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Friend, you are taking this verse out of context, plain and simple. To check for yourself, answer two questions for me:

1) What is the "promise" that Peter is talking about in this verse?

2) Who is God longsuffering (patient) towards?

The answers are simple. The promise is the return of Christ. See the following verse.

The next answer, who is God patient towards? Why, "us" of course! (Other translations say "you", but it's the same thing).

God is patient towards US, not wishing any to perish. Who is the "us"? Well, it's clear that the "US" is the recipients of Peter's letter, which just so happen to be "God's elect".

As I said, please see the post #57.

All you've done is repeatedly paste this verse, as if it proves anything. You need to take the time to explain the context if you plan on using the verse to support a particular belief :wink:

 

[Bambi]

Not willing any perish

2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again just like hiselect said, "taken out of contexts" Well lets just do that.
The part, "not willing that any should perish" This proves that God is a liar.
If Jesus had returned at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Then many of us today would not exist.
Neither would the Great Reform teachers that lived 500 years ago.
But since Jesus didn't return in 70 A.D. then look at all those people who PERISHED since then.
If it's true that God is not willing that anyone perish then we all go to heaven and no one goes to hell.
If you believe that you believe in universalism, which is not biblical.

 

[hiselect]

I wanted to offer some commentaries on 2 pet 3:9 that are very beneficial. Far from being a passage about God not desiring that any of the human race perish, it is a verse that teaches that God is delaying Christ's return until all of God's elect have repented and believed. Christ said he will bring all of His sheep into the fold, and if you trust Jesus like I do, he will most certainly do this without fail (John 10)

Here are the opening statements of Peter’s two letters. Notice who he is specifically addressing his letters to:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter...to God's elect...
2 Peter 1:1 Peter...to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours (ie, God’s elect, since God’s elect (chosen people) are the ones who obtain/receive the gift of faith)

And now, observe the opening line of 2 Peter Chapter 3:

(1) This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved…

I will paste the entirety of 2nd Peter Chapter 3 here. You’ll notice that anytime Peter says “you”, he’s referring to the recipients of his letter. Anytime Peter says “them” or “they” he is referring to a totally different group of people.

Peter strives here to make a distinction between these two categories of people, saying different things about each of them.

It’s simply a matter of following the pronouns, which are bolded and colored accordingly.
2Pe 3:1-18
(1) This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,
(2) that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
(3) knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
(4) They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation."
(5) For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
(6) and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
(7) But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
(8) But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(9) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
(10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
(11) Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
(12) waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
(13) But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(14) Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
(15) And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
(16) as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
(17) You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
(18) But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

It is clear that Peter strives to make the distinction between "you" and "them" - he distinguishes between two groups of people. The elect, and the ungodly. The Christians, and the unbelievers. The beloved, and the scoffers.Those that God is patiently waiting to repent unto salvation, and those he plans on destroying.


It is also clear that the "you" in 2nd Peter 3:9 is the controlling word, and we, as readers, are limited in who we can apply Peter's statement to since he has chosen to shift the focus onto the group he has been meticulously distinguishing away from the second group for the past 8 verses.

L Boettner Reformed Faith
Arminians insist that in 2 Peter 3:9 the words "any" and "all" refer to all mankind without exception. But it is important first of all to see to whom those words were addressed. In the first verse of chapter 1, we find that the epistle is addressed not to mankind at larger, but to Christians: "...to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us." And in the preceding verse (3:1), Peter had addressed those to whom he was writing as "beloved." And when we look at the verse as a whole, and not merely at the last half, we find that it is not primarily a salvation verse at all, but a second coming verse! It begins by saying that "The Lord is not slacking concerning his promise" [singular]. What promise? Verse 4 tells us: "the promise of his coming." The reference is to His second coming, when He will come for judgement, and the wicked will perish in the lake of fire. The verse has reference to a limited group. It says that the Lord is "longsuffering to usward," His elect, many of whom had not yet been regenerated, and who therefore had not yet come to repentance. Hence we may quite properly read verse 9 as follows: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise as some count slackness, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance."

A W Pink Sovereignty of God
Perhaps the one passage which has presented the greatest difficulty to those who have seen that passage after passage in Holy Writ plainly reaches the election of a limited number unto salvation is 2 Peter 3:9 "… not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".

The first thing to be said upon the above passage is that, like all other scripture, it must be understood and interpreted in the light of its context. Surely it must be allowed by all that the first half of the verse needs to be taken into consideration. In order to establish what these words are supposed by many to mean, viz., that the words "any" and "all" are to be received without any qualification, it must be shown that the context is referring to the whole human race! If this cannot be shown, if there is no premise to justify this, then the conclusion also must be unwarranted. Let us then ponder the first part of the verse.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise". Note "promise" in the singular number, not "promises". What promise is in view? The promise of salvation? Where, in all Scripture, has God ever promised to save the whole human race!! Where indeed? No, the "promise" here referred to is not about salvation. What then is it? The context tells us.

"Knowing this... (vv. 3, 4). The context then refers to God's promise to send back His beloved Son. But many long centuries have passed, and this promise has not yet been fulfilled. True, but long as the delay may seem to us, the interval is short in the reckoning of God. As the proof of this we are reminded, "But, beloved.... (v.8) In God's reckoning of time, less than two days have passed since He promised to send back Christ.

But more, the "delay" in the Father sending back His beloved Son is not only due to no "slackness" on His part, but it is also occasioned by His "longsuffering". His longsuffering to whom? The verse we are now considering tells us: "but to longsuffering to usward". And whom are the "usward"? - the human race, or God's own people? In the light of this context this is not an open question upon which each of us is free to form an opinion. The Holy Spirit has defined it. The opening verse of the chapter says, "This second Epistle, beloved, I now write unto you". And, again, the verse immediately preceding declares "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing etc" (v. 8). The "usward" then are the "beloved" of God. They to whom this Epistle is addressed are "them that have obtained (not "exercised", but "obtained" as God's sovereign gift) like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:11). Therefore we say there is no room for a doubt, a quibble or an argument - the "usward" are the elect of God.

Let us now quote the verse as a whole: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) Could anything be clearer? The "any" that God is not willing should perish, are the "usward" to whom God is "longsuffering", the "beloved" of the previous verses. 2 Peter 3:9 means, then, that God will not send back His Son until "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom 11:25). God will not send back Christ till that "people" whom He is now "taking out of the Gentiles" (Acts 15:14) are gathered in. God will not send back His Son till the Body of Christ is complete, and that will not be till the ones whom He has elected to be saved in this dispensation shall have been brought to Him. Thank God for His "longsuffering to us-ward". Had Christ come back twenty years ago the writer had been left behind to perish in His sins. But that could not be, so God graciously delayed the Second Coming. For the same reason He is still delaying His Advent. His decreed purpose is that all His elect will come to repentance, and repent they shall. The present interval of grace will not end until the last of the "other sheep" of John 10:16 are safely folded, - then will Christ return.

 

[spirit1st]

I do not think you understand GOD LOVES all mankind and not just a few of us !

Its the sin GOD hates and not the person!
WHY ,What do you have above others?

NO its the evil HE hates !
And HE has given all mankind the choice!
I think anyone can be saved on the earth!

Why preach to others if there is no hope for them , Why be left in these bodies if no matter what we do, the same out come!
No i do not agree
O know the gospel preached bring many into the kingdom
Many will answer its call!
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
is GOD dumb, is HE wasting HIS time calling many ,When He Already knows its worthless?


Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.





Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

HOW could they work it out ? If its was a done deal?

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Many HE does not MEAN Every Man , but just those predestined ! GOD can and will change ANYONE ON EARTH ,IF WE ARE WILLING?

why DID HE AND OTHERS LABOR SO HARD TO GIVE THE GOSPEL TO SO MANY ?
bECAUSE THEY COULD BE SAVED !

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
i WOULD SAY THESE ARE THE CALLED THAT FALL AWAY!

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
2Ti 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.


Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.



1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[hiselect]

You said:

"And HE has given all mankind the choice!"

Are you sure? What about all those that never even hear the gospel? God has chosen to leave them in complete darkness and ignorance. Millions and millions of people never hear a single word about Jesus. So much for God giving all mankind a choice.

Jesus makes it clear that God reveals the truth to some, and hides it from others, and Jesus THANKS GOD for doing such a thing:

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

That out of the way, I never said I denied that men make a choice. Everyone who hears the gospel either accepts or rejects it. Those that reject it do so because they want to. Those that accept it do so because they want to.

The problem is, the Bible is clear that all men, while in the fallen, unregenerate state, do not desire Christ, and are actually enemies of God, hostile towards God, and they do not desire Christ nor repentance.

In order for any at all to believe in Christ, God must change the person's heart by grace, he must make them born again, which is exactly what 1 Jn 5:1 says and Jn 1:12-13 state.

Salvation is not simply a matter of a human's choice. Instead, it is a matter of God setting His covenental love on a chosen people for Himself, for His own glory, from all eternity past.

"He chose us in Him before the foundations of the world, that we should be Holy and blameless before him. In love He predestined us unto the adoption of sons.." (Eph 1:4-11)

 

[spirit1st]

HE only hides the truth from those Who have rejected it!
He has revealed HIMSELF to all mankind!
At sometime they have rejected HIM!

then satan blinds them !

Salvation is very simple! But At salvation, we must give HIM everything we are and have !Few will!

But we lose nothing! We Gain everything!
that is a trick of the devil , making people think they will lose something!
But HE cannot enter into us , unless we allow HIM to have HIS proper place as LORD and Master!

the problem is not just mankind , But His entire Kingdom.They are All watching earth to see how the LORD handles such a rebellious people!

Even when Born -Again, we still do not listen well to the HOLY GHOST !
HE wants to teach us and guide us and reveal all Truth to us And to have us walk and live in HIS POWER!
Nothing he will not show us ,Nothing is hid from Him.
He knows everything about Heaven and earth!

And HE waits 24/7 for us to ASK!

 

[spirit1st]

The Heart is the Spirit and it is Not changed until we accept HIS GOSPEL as TRUTH

This is MY LORDS GOSPEL!
Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


And then accept HIM into our Heart [Spirit]As LORD and Master!
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Then He changes our heart [Spirit]Gives us a brand new one,that is not effected by sin!

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:


Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

This new spirit makes us a real New Creature ! A heavenly being!

but we still live in earthly bodies a short time!Only because? He wants to live though us to help and bless others!

Ow we are out of place!
Our proper place is New Jerusalem , Our Home

ambassadors for HIM

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
That is our HOME!

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
We are ALL spirit beings first! flesh Last!

GOD is a Spirit and All His children are Spirit beings too!

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
HE died that we would not be punished for our sins ! and He could change our Spirit out and give us a Spirit that was not defiled by Sin!
He does not save our bodies .But will give us New Bodies like our Lords ! When we get Home !

You know, I died thinking i was saved! No one taught me about Born -Again , that it is a true Birth! I thought i just said the words and it was automatic!
Now the reason i am preaching His Gospel and that salvation is a new birth? So others will seek to be Born -Again and have SALVATION!

Nothing on this planet is more important to mankind , than being Born -Again!

It quick and eternal!
But we must give Him His Rightful place in our Lives!
or we will never know God as Father and Friend!

The only different between the saved and unsaved is the Spirit within the body! All the bodies die because of SIN .But the SpiriTs Born of God ,have No sin and spirits Not Born of God are sinful!

It has nothing to do with the flesh we are in!

Salvation is Not of the flesh!
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Chad]

Are you sure? What about all those that never even hear the gospel? God has chosen to leave them in complete darkness and ignorance. Millions and millions of people never hear a single word about Jesus. So much for God giving all mankind a choice.

What happens to those who have never heard about Jesus?

 

[Chad]

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Commentaries on Matthew 11:25-30

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

King James Commentary

25-30. Answered. The words that follow are the response of Jesus to the circumstances just described. Thank (Gr ex-omologeoµ) is literally to acknowledge. Babes refers to spiritual babes who receive God's revelation in simple faith. The yoke refers to the teaching of Christ, which is represented as being light in comparison with the burdensome teaching of the Pharisees (see 23:4). Ye shall find rest unto your souls. These words are taken from Jeremiah 6:16. The LXX has “ye shall find purification unto your souls” and is corrected by Matthew to the original meaning in the Hebrew. Easy means good or kind. The entire passage is peculiar to Matthew's gospel.

Matthew Henry's Commentary

It becomes children to be grateful. When we come to God as a Father, we must remember that he is Lord of heaven and earth, which obliges us to come to him with reverence as to the sovereign Lord of all; yet with confidence, as one able to defend us from evil, and to supply us with all good. Our blessed Lord added a remarkable declaration, that the Father had delivered into his hands all power, authority, and judgment.

We are indebted to Christ for all the revelation we have of God the Father's will and love, ever since Adam sinned. Our Saviour has invited all that labour and are heavy-laden, to come unto him. In some senses all men are so. Worldly men burden themselves with fruitless cares for wealth and honours; the gay and the sensual labour in pursuit of pleasures; the slave of Satan and his own lusts, is the merest drudge on earth. Those who labour to establish their own righteousness also labour in vain. The convinced sinner is heavy-laden with guilt and terror; and the tempted and afflicted believer has labours and burdens.

Christ invites all to come to him for rest to their souls. He alone gives this invitation; men come to him, when, feeling their guilt and misery, and believing his love and power to help, they seek him in fervent prayer. Thus it is the duty and interest of weary and heavy-laden sinners, to come to Jesus Christ. This is the gospel call; Whoever will, let him come. All who thus come will receive rest as Christ's gift, and obtain peace and comfort in their hearts.

But in coming to him they must take his yoke, and submit to his authority. They must learn of him all things, as to their comfort and obedience. He accepts the willing servant, however imperfect the services. Here we may find rest for our souls, and here only. Nor need we fear his yoke. His commandments are holy, just, and good. It requires self-denial, and exposes to difficulties, but this is abundantly repaid, even in this world, by inward peace and joy. It is a yoke that is lined with love. So powerful are the assistances he gives us, so suitable the encouragements, and so strong the consolations to be found in the way of duty, that we may truly say, it is a yoke of pleasantness.

The way of duty is the way of rest. The truths Christ teaches are such as we may venture our souls upon. Such is the Redeemer's mercy; and why should the labouring and burdened sinner seek for rest from any other quarter? Let us come to him daily, for deliverance from wrath and guilt, from sin and Satan, from all our cares, fears, and sorrows. But forced obedience, far from being easy and light, is a heavy burden. In vain do we draw near to Jesus with our lips, while the heart is far from him. Then come to Jesus to find rest for your souls.

 

[spirit1st]

I think the Truth is in GODS LIVING WORDS!
but satan uses the things we do not understand to trick us into thinking, GOD is Not LOVE
of course Love gives mercy and Grace!

Once we no longer see God as LOVE? Then we start doubting Truth!
Because the beginning of All truth is Love and Love is the center of all understanding of Gods Living word!

He is Pure Perfect LOVE!
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

of course this is talking about babies!
Yet we can see that He is merciful and Loves and will judge correctly!
leaning toward LOVE which gives mercy always!
So then we can trust HIm, Even in the things we do not fully understand and are Able to accept His Perfect Will in all things!

We trust His judgment above ours Always!

 

[Bambi]

Debate

This debate has been going on since Pelagius and Augustine in the first century and it will continue till the Lord comes. The only way you will ever believe in the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinisim) is that the Holy Ghost reveal it to you. :handshake:

 

[StopPolloition]

I choose instead to form my theology on the Word of God. Calvinism and Arminianism have their pluses and minuses, but ultimately they're the doctrines of men.

 

[Bambi]

Look up your church history

Look up the records on Pelagius and Augustine and see what they discussed and how the church handle it. Augustine believed what Calvin believed, which is God's sovereignity and Pelagius believed in the free-will of man. The church agreed with Augustine.

 

[StopPolloition]

Look up the records on Pelagius and Augustine and see what they discussed and how the church handle it. Augustine believed what Calvin believed, which is God's sovereignity and Pelagius believed in the free-will of man. The church agreed with Augustine.

Again, I wont make hay about the rightness or wrongness of either viewpoint. Simply stating that because he agreed with Calvin makes Calvin's belief right is faulty logic. The devils believe and tremble. Do we take our doctrinal cues from them? Enough has already been said about both stances. On some particularly controversial issues, however, I think it best not to put too much stock in the words of men. Bear in mind that the "church" at the time of Augustine was the RCC, not the church from the book of Acts. The Biblical church had begun to go underground and certainly not publish many works of scholarship on what should have already been clear. The RCC was already fraught with indulgences, heresy and doctrines of devils.

Consider too, that Augustine believed in a host of blasphemous and unscriptural ideas, not the least of which is transsubstantiation (that the implements of communion actually became the blood and body of the Lord), Mass as a sanctioned practice of worship, purgatory and praying for the dead, the perpetual virginity of Mary, penance as a sacrament and the sterling and irrevocable authority of the "Mother Church".

He can hardly be considered a reputable source.