Does God Love The Non-Elect?
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StopPolloition
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Bambi, what truth have I missed? I think you've taken this the wrong way. Read my earlier posts. I, like you, believe in election. But I don't believe in it because Calvin did or because Augustine cosigned on it or because my grandmother, a rabbi, a trio of nuns and a judge swore to its validity. I believe it because it seems to line up with scripture to me. It's the only way to reconcile the truth that God desires all men to be saved yet most will be lost. None can come to salvation apart from the drawing of the Spirit, intended since before the foundation of the world. We're saying the same thing, I just have problems with both Calvin and Augustine. :shade:
With all due respect, this statement is an error StopPolloition. Calvinism as we know it today is simply the doctrines formulated in the acrostic T.U.L.I.P. What you must understand is that John Calvin did not invent what we call Calvinism. He never sat down and wrote out TULIP. John Calvin had no idea what TULIP is, nor does he have any idea what a "Calvnist" was. He died long before the Synod of Dordt occurred.
Calvinism is actually a result of the Synod of Dordt whereby they weighed the Bible against the claims of the Arminians who sparked a controversy who were disagreeing with the Protestant Reformation churches.
A "synod" is another word for "council" or "court", and they simply weighed certain assertions against the Bible and the Bible alone. You can see the Canons of Dordt on the web by doing a search for "canons of dordt", (I cannot link you here) and you will notice that every single proclamation of the Canon is based on scripture and scripture alone.
I submit to you that Calvinism is fully Biblical, and Arminianism is fully in error and a false doctrine. Being that Calvinism, as you can see with your own eyes, is based fully on scripture, you can in no sense accuse it of being "the doctrines" or inventions of men.
Calvinism is simply exactly what the Bible teaches about God's Sovereignty, Man's sinfulness, and the necessity and sufficiency of God's grace in salvation.
Thanks for your time.
Joe
(PS. Also, no where, not even once, does the Bible teach that God desires that every single person, head for head, will be saved. If you're referring to 2 Pet 3:9 or 1 Tim 2:4, you are taking them out of context, plain and simple. See an earlier post on 2 Pet 3:9 for a full exegesis of the passage in context. The only people that God desires to be saved are the ones He predestined to save and intends to save)
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StopPolloition
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Hiselect, I maintain my original point and lovingly disagree. I diverge from Calvin's understanding of the scripture at the P in tulip. I don't believe the perserverance of the saints to be scriptural. The POS asserts that God's will is irresistable and thus once a person is saved theyre locked and loaded, irrespective of what they do or how they live. When there is a preponderance of scriptural evidence that if we defile the temple of God he will destroy us.
POS seeks to amerliorate this seeming gaffe by stating that if someone is lost they were never truly saved to begin with. This is about as weak as iced tea.
Space will simply not allow me to list the number of scriptures that adjure us to stand, to resist, to fight, to study, to repent, to crucify, to buffet ourselves, to guard ourselves, to refrain from, to watch and be vigilant and sober.
This is hardly the "I repeated some words so I'm on vacation till Jesus comes" foolishness that POS undergirds. I'm not speaking of salvation by our works, yet our faith will produce works and we have to work at staying saved. POS takes one scripture from John so far out of context about none being able to snatch from the Father's hands that it no longer resembles the Bible. Within the context of the passage Jesus isn't asserting that those who are saved need do nothing to maintain it as an a priori concept, it seems instead to say that once a person is saved and makes up their minds to stay saved, no one can remove them.
Further, that someone used the scripture as a starting point is in no regard proof of their beliefs remaining in situ. There is a panoply of belief systems that used the Bible as a starting point and then hybridized the Holy writ with their own input; underscoring what works for them and jettisoning what doesnt. I don't see anything in wrong in saying if you want the truth, go to the source, not someone's interpretation of the source. I read the Apostles inspired works, the works of Calvin or any other can line up where they will or fall where they may.
POS seeks to amerliorate this seeming gaffe by stating that if someone is lost they were never truly saved to begin with. This is about as weak as iced tea.
Space will simply not allow me to list the number of scriptures that adjure us to stand, to resist, to fight, to study, to repent, to crucify, to buffet ourselves, to guard ourselves, to refrain from, to watch and be vigilant and sober.
This is hardly the "I repeated some words so I'm on vacation till Jesus comes" foolishness that POS undergirds. I'm not speaking of salvation by our works, yet our faith will produce works and we have to work at staying saved. POS takes one scripture from John so far out of context about none being able to snatch from the Father's hands that it no longer resembles the Bible. Within the context of the passage Jesus isn't asserting that those who are saved need do nothing to maintain it as an a priori concept, it seems instead to say that once a person is saved and makes up their minds to stay saved, no one can remove them.
Further, that someone used the scripture as a starting point is in no regard proof of their beliefs remaining in situ. There is a panoply of belief systems that used the Bible as a starting point and then hybridized the Holy writ with their own input; underscoring what works for them and jettisoning what doesnt. I don't see anything in wrong in saying if you want the truth, go to the source, not someone's interpretation of the source. I read the Apostles inspired works, the works of Calvin or any other can line up where they will or fall where they may.
Friend, you didn't get but three sentences into your post before you made an error, created a strawman, and misrepresented the view you are opposing.
The POS does not teach that once saved a person can live however they want, even in unbelief and sin, and still be saved. In fact, the POS teaches the exact opposite.
Do you see a significant word in "Perseverance of the Saints?" Precisely. The saints "persevere". They keep doing good works. They continue to be sanctified by God's Holy Spirit working in them to do good works and walk a Christlike life. They never backslide completely into a worldly, ungodly life or unbelief. They persevere in the works that God has predestined them to do.
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Bottom line. If you're in Christ Jesus (saved), that means you are created in Him to do good works. Every person in Heaven has lived a life of persevering in good works, because that's what God predestined us to do. We aren't saved by works, but our works are evidence of our salvation (James 2:18)
Hope this clears things up for you. I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your post. Yes, the Bible commands and urges Christians to "stand, to resist, to fight, to study, to repent, to crucify, to buffet ourselves, to guard ourselves, to refrain from, to watch and be vigilant and sober." That's precisely what POS teaches.
All of that being said, this statement of yours is obviously false:
This is hardly the "I repeated some words so I'm on vacation till Jesus comes" foolishness that POS undergirds.
As I said above, the doctrine of POS absolutely does not mean that one is saved by easy believism. In fact, opponents of Calvinism often attack POS for its strong view on Lordship salvation. Ever heard of the easy-believism/Lordship controversy?
Calvinism lines up against easy believism and on the side of Lordship.
Please do not misrepresent the position you set out to oppose, that's the logical fallacy of building a strawman.
It's easier to knock down a strawman of your own creation than to stand toe to toe in the ring with the actual boxer =]The point is this: Calvinism teaches, and POS teaches, and the Bible teaches that Jesus didn't just save us from the guilt or consequences of sin, but also sin itself. Christians, true Christians who have true saving faith, no longer live the sinful lives they used to live. There is a battle, and a struggle against sin to be sure, but there is victory over sin, with God's help, for the child of God. The child of God "puts to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit's help, in order to live" - Romans 8
Surely you agree with this brother? In fact, since you feel so strongly about Holy living, you'd make a pretty good Calvinist
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1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
StopPolloition
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I think we can discuss these issues without the rather obtuse snipes on what one knows or doesnt know. Simply because you disagree with me, don't take it upon yourself to brand me as being unclear on something or imply that I am not familiar enough with the concept of strawman tactics to not stagger blithely into the use of one or deny the fact that a large number of congregations teaches POS in such a way that easy believism would seem stern in comparison. There are far too many individuals and bodies who are so afraid of living holy being construed as a work that they do nothing at all to deny the trap that POS can become. It isn't a matter of understanding it. I'm saying that in the centuries since it has been written down, none have done a convincing job in my opinion of presenting it as scriptural. To take something and think it doctrine when it seems to be full of holes is dangerous. I'm as sola scriptura as the next fella, not because I was spoonfed it but because it has stood the test of time and there isnt anyone who halfreads the Bible who can say that it isnt the inspired word of God and is the most important aspect of Christianity. Even you did a better example of presenting POS than Calvin, no offense. I don't take anything I read to heart, no worries. I just think your last comment was a little jagged, is all. One thing I'm certain we can agree on, I can't wait until we know him even as he is known, to be able to sit down together, see what we were right about in the fulness of his presence and laugh about what we had wrong. Maranatha!
StopPolloition
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The Bible speaks of Israel's perpetual backsliding. Though they were saved from the Egyptians after passing through the Red Sea, the bulk of them died in the wilderness because of their continual sin and unbelief. All were under the cloud, all were baptized unto Moses (a curious inclusion if baptism werent essential, but that's for another post). Yet God was not pleased with many of them and overthrew them in the wilderness. So were Korah and Achan, for example saved after all, even though they too experienced a type of salvation? I don't believe so. I believe they languish in Hell to this day. I'm not one given to assigning anyone to Hell all willy nilly but having died as a result of the judgement of God while in their unrepented sin, I think it's fair to conclude that they're lost. Paul wrote of these things and says they are for our example, an admonishment. What is the point of admonishment if there is no risk of waywardness? And further to him that thinks he stands to take heed lest he fall. Fall how? This isn't a gaffe or a stumble then you repent. This is loss of salvation.
The inevitable question is were they ever saved? I believe they were at some point. They had to have applied to blood of the lamb to their doorposts, they escaped Egypt but died at the hand of God.
Later David prayed that God wouldnt take his Spirit from him. Would he have been concerned if this were an impossibility? Jesus said no man could pluck one of his out of his Father's hand. This is external- nobody can make you be lost if you intend on being saved. I don't think it's splitting hairs to say that a person couldnt, however, decided to step out of that hand. Why then the warning to those who would put their hands to the plow and look back? Does scripture bear out the Spirit of God living inside someone yet them turning away? I don't have any doubt that Paul thought of Demas as saved at one point. Surely he must have exhibited some proof of regeneration to work so closely with the apostle.
I don't live in terror of condemnation or judgement; my sin debt was paid on the Cross. Yet I am ever mindful that if I don't diligently line myself up with the word of God, I could be lost. If I were to be lost, I was never elected for salvation. Redemption was completed at the cross, salvation is completed when we leave this world. Only when we can no longer sin can we ever say, in my opinion, that salvation is eternal. (Work out our own salvation with fear and trembling) seems to indicate a process. There will be many people who "knew" they were saved- these people will stand before the throne and say "Lord didnt we prophesy and cast out devils, etc, etc. This also indicates to me the elect will be those alone who stand before God and hear him say "Well done".
I guess that's a very long way of saying yes, I believe you can.
The inevitable question is were they ever saved? I believe they were at some point. They had to have applied to blood of the lamb to their doorposts, they escaped Egypt but died at the hand of God.
Later David prayed that God wouldnt take his Spirit from him. Would he have been concerned if this were an impossibility? Jesus said no man could pluck one of his out of his Father's hand. This is external- nobody can make you be lost if you intend on being saved. I don't think it's splitting hairs to say that a person couldnt, however, decided to step out of that hand. Why then the warning to those who would put their hands to the plow and look back? Does scripture bear out the Spirit of God living inside someone yet them turning away? I don't have any doubt that Paul thought of Demas as saved at one point. Surely he must have exhibited some proof of regeneration to work so closely with the apostle.
I don't live in terror of condemnation or judgement; my sin debt was paid on the Cross. Yet I am ever mindful that if I don't diligently line myself up with the word of God, I could be lost. If I were to be lost, I was never elected for salvation. Redemption was completed at the cross, salvation is completed when we leave this world. Only when we can no longer sin can we ever say, in my opinion, that salvation is eternal. (Work out our own salvation with fear and trembling) seems to indicate a process. There will be many people who "knew" they were saved- these people will stand before the throne and say "Lord didnt we prophesy and cast out devils, etc, etc. This also indicates to me the elect will be those alone who stand before God and hear him say "Well done".
I guess that's a very long way of saying yes, I believe you can.
But friend, my post to you was not a reaction to an opinion. My post was a reaction to a assertion. (A false one) An assertion is something stated as if it were a fact.
You said outright, and I quote "The POS asserts that God's will is irresistable and thus once a person is saved theyre locked and loaded, irrespective of what they do or how they live."
The whole point of my reply to you is that no, POS does not ASSERT any such thing. Hence my accusation that you built a strawman. To assign an attribute or accuse something of something that is untrue is a strawman, and that's precisely what you did
The most you can honestly say is that adhering to POS can sometimes lead to people who live loose lifestyles, thinking all the while that they are saved. But even then, that is not the fault of the doctrine itself, but the people who aren't following the doctrine very close. It's the fault of the person, not the doctrine. Therefore, POS cannot be accused of "asserting that people can live loosely and still be saved".
I was simply correcting your assertion, not your opinion. Assertions can be true or false, but opinions cannot be challenged. I never challenged your opinion, I defended the POS against your false assertion.
I do not wish to come across as unfriendly or anything brother. I am simply a firm believer in accurate presentations when theological views are being discussed and opposed. Please understand this.
Thanks
God bless,
Joe
(PS, I also wanted to point out an apparent contradiction of yours. Perhaps you can clear this up for me.)
In one post, you said:
"If I were to be lost, I was never elected for salvation"
Yet in another post, the post attacking POS, you said:
"POS seeks to amerliorate this seeming gaffe by stating that if someone is lost they were never truly saved to begin with. This is about as weak as iced tea."
You said outright, and I quote "The POS asserts that God's will is irresistable and thus once a person is saved theyre locked and loaded, irrespective of what they do or how they live."
The whole point of my reply to you is that no, POS does not ASSERT any such thing. Hence my accusation that you built a strawman. To assign an attribute or accuse something of something that is untrue is a strawman, and that's precisely what you did
The most you can honestly say is that adhering to POS can sometimes lead to people who live loose lifestyles, thinking all the while that they are saved. But even then, that is not the fault of the doctrine itself, but the people who aren't following the doctrine very close. It's the fault of the person, not the doctrine. Therefore, POS cannot be accused of "asserting that people can live loosely and still be saved".
I was simply correcting your assertion, not your opinion. Assertions can be true or false, but opinions cannot be challenged. I never challenged your opinion, I defended the POS against your false assertion.
I do not wish to come across as unfriendly or anything brother. I am simply a firm believer in accurate presentations when theological views are being discussed and opposed. Please understand this.
Thanks
God bless,
Joe
(PS, I also wanted to point out an apparent contradiction of yours. Perhaps you can clear this up for me.)
In one post, you said:
"If I were to be lost, I was never elected for salvation"
Yet in another post, the post attacking POS, you said:
"POS seeks to amerliorate this seeming gaffe by stating that if someone is lost they were never truly saved to begin with. This is about as weak as iced tea."
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Bambi
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Salvation is eternal
If it’s true that you can lose your salvation then you can never get it back. And if you can lose your salvation then Christ’s atonement on the cross was insufficient and for you to gain salvation again Christ would have to be crucified again. Hebrews Chapter 6.
The book of Hebrews was written to Christian Jews to tell them to stop being Hebrews. They like you, believed they could lose their salvation because according to the Law they continually had to present a sacrifice for theirs sins, because their sacrifices was imperfect. The priest that presented the sacrifices were imperfect. In Hebrews it tells them that Christ was the perfect High Priest, the perfect sacrifice.
Hebrews 2:17; 4:14-16; Chapter 5, 7, 8. 9
The entire book of Hebrews is something you need to read. There are so many passages there that will help you to know that your salvation is eternal.
When Christ died on the cross he said, “It is finished” that means there is no more need for sacrifices. When it was finished he covered the sins in the past, present and future. His atonement for our sins are for all of ours sins, even the ones we haven’t committed yet.
If it’s true that you can lose your salvation then you can never get it back. And if you can lose your salvation then Christ’s atonement on the cross was insufficient and for you to gain salvation again Christ would have to be crucified again. Hebrews Chapter 6.
The book of Hebrews was written to Christian Jews to tell them to stop being Hebrews. They like you, believed they could lose their salvation because according to the Law they continually had to present a sacrifice for theirs sins, because their sacrifices was imperfect. The priest that presented the sacrifices were imperfect. In Hebrews it tells them that Christ was the perfect High Priest, the perfect sacrifice.
Hebrews 2:17; 4:14-16; Chapter 5, 7, 8. 9
The entire book of Hebrews is something you need to read. There are so many passages there that will help you to know that your salvation is eternal.
When Christ died on the cross he said, “It is finished” that means there is no more need for sacrifices. When it was finished he covered the sins in the past, present and future. His atonement for our sins are for all of ours sins, even the ones we haven’t committed yet.
