Eternity in Hell

[jiggyfly]

Great idea! How will I know when I've actually met Him? Will it be when my impression of Him aligns with your own personal bias?:wink:

You will know because He will reveal Himself to you someday. He may have already done so in some subtle ways in the past but since you ignore His existence you were blind to it. You have been exposed to religion but that is not God nor is it of God. But one day you along with everyone else, will meet and recognize Him, bow and confess allegiance to Him.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hell

Tusk Barnes:

No disagreement here. But again didn't God know, before all of this ever happened, what the "decisions" of 60-80% of mankind would be? Even those who don't believe in Satan have apparently elected to swear allegiance to him. Even they are treated as if they serve a king who was never their own...and punished in kind. That's pretty messed up. Where's all this justice I've been hearing about?

Only those that believe in Calvinism believe that God is twisted, a respecter of Persons, and totally evil. They believe that everyone deserves to go to hell, and if you get picked to make it, then you were just one of the Lucky ones... If I were a Calvinist, I could not with good conscience even believe in Hell. I would have to convince myself it does not even exist and talk about trash heaps and the Greek for eternity to prove my false assumptions..

Hell is real, it's a real place. Mary K Baxter even said she has been there with Jesus. I don't know.. but what she described is not a place to be.

You choose what you believe, I would very strongly suggest that you believe the Word of God.. Its a choice. It's called Faith.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Hell is real, it's a real place. Mary K Baxter even said she has been there with Jesus. I don't know.. but what she described is not a place to be.

Have you done any research on Mary K. Baxter?

She's a quack, a heretic, and a liar. She has been exposed by atheists and Christians alike, as such. In all likelihood she had a bad dream one night, and decided to call it "a vision" so she could write books and get money from suckers whose love for God is only founded on a fear of His damnation. This is no way to live a life.

Loving someone simply because you're afraid He'll destroy you otherwise, is what any psychologist will call "Living in an abusive relationship."

Live your life, man. You have nothing to be afraid of. God can't hurt you or anyone.

You choose what you believe, I would very strongly suggest that you believe the Word of God.. Its a choice. It's called Faith.

I have precious little choice in what my mind believes. It will only believe what it has a reason to believe. I am not a gullible person, so if someone tells me there's a place as awful as Hell or a land as magical as Heaven, but gives me no location, no souvenirs, no pictures, no evidence, I have no reason to believe such a place exists. At least Dante had the courtesy to place Hell under Tuscany. If it's a real place, but it's not on Earth, how are we supposed to get there when we're dead? When I'm dead, I don't anticipate doing a whole lot of traveling.

This thing called faith sounds a lot like wish-thinking. Why you would wish-think that such a horrible and abysmal place as Hell actually exists and/or is necessary, is beyond me, but personally, I have no reason to. And I couldn't be happier or less afraid.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Great idea! How will I know when I've actually met Him?

Are you willing to admit the possibility that He does exist? That's the starting point.

SLE

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Are you willing to admit the possibility that He does exist? That's the starting point.

SLE

Certainly! But before we get to He (God), we're going to have to tackle the issue of a god, and then we're going to have to tackle the issue of one god. Notice that a god and one god are not necessarily the same. For example, if there are 50,000 gods then certainly there is a god. I'll need to know why I should believe in a god. Then I'll need to know why I shouldn't believe in many gods, but only believe in one god. Then we can get into why that one god is, in fact Him.

But to answer your question, it's possible, yes. It's a big big universe, and I only have a small amount of knowledge. Just about anything is possible without any of us ever being aware.

 

[Word of Life]

Loving someone simply because you're afraid He'll destroy you otherwise, is what any psychologist will call "Living in an abusive relationship."

Having a relationship and getting to know God and His Son, takes time. It's a different kind of love, the world teaches a false love, which is on the surface, this goes much deeper.

I am 50 years old, and I was 44 when I accepted Jesus as my saviour and it's grown, ever since. Before that, I did not grow up in religious environment, my interest were not of God, nor did I have the Word of God. I was witnessed too, over the internet, made mistakes. I looked at all this as carnal as could be. I was walking in the flesh instead of the sprit. God is patient. You spoke of mocking, God revealed that to me, and I had to make some serious decisions. Now both me and my husband are Born Again believers.

Live your life, man. You have nothing to be afraid of. God can't hurt you or anyone.

You can grow in His love, and this takes time, you grow each day, in knowledge of Him, and having a deep relationship. Pray and ask God to reveal Himself to you. God knows exactly how to reach you, I don't. Whether it might be through other people or through His Word, God can do it. God reached me through the internet, so I have no doubts, He can reach anyone anywhere. Nothing is impossible with God, just put your trust in Him and acknowledge Him and thank Him for things He has done for you already.

I have precious little choice in what my mind believes. It will only believe what it has a reason to believe. I am not a gullible person,

We have all been there Tusk Barnes, I did not believe, but when God gives you of His spirit, a person changes. I was told about God, and I wanted to know all about this God, which was spoken to me about. Ask God to reveal Himself to you, speak to Him, ask Him what He loves, what He hates, what His plan for mankind is. He can do this.

so if someone tells me there's a place as awful as Hell or a land as magical as Heaven, but gives me no location, no souvenirs, no pictures, no evidence, I have no reason to believe such a place exists. At least Dante had the courtesy to place Hell under Tuscany. If it's a real place, but it's not on Earth, how are we supposed to get there when we're dead? When I'm dead, I don't anticipate doing a whole lot of traveling.

I am not interested in speaking of Hell, I am more interested in guiding people back to God, for eternity and the Kingdom, so I glorify and preach what God has instore for us. Spend more time understanding what God has promised and about the Kingdom. God has given us the location in His Word, which I quoted in my previous post, God is going to create a New Heaven and New Earth, where righteousness will dwell.

This thing called faith sounds a lot like wish-thinking. Why you would wish-think that such a horrible and abysmal place as Hell actually exists and/or is necessary, is beyond me, but personally, I have no reason to. And I couldn't be happier or less afraid.

Forget about hell, and focus on the Kingdom, find out what that's all about and about His promises.

Mat 5:18
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If you don't believe in God, just speak to Him anyway, and ask Him to reveal Himself, He will surprise you.

 

[Tusk Barnes]

I do like your sunshiny version of God belief, but it is difficult to forget about Hell in a thread titled, "Eternity in Hell."

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Certainly! But before we get to He (God), we're going to have to tackle the issue of a god, and then we're going to have to tackle the issue of one god.

Tusk,

You are obviously highly skilled in what might be called the art of debate at the academic level. Few, if any. members here at TalkJesus can match your skills in that area,myself included. So, let me level the playing field a bit: Have you ever read with a truly open mind any of the works of Christian apologists such as Josh McDowell, Charles Colson, Dallas Willard, C. S. Lewis?

SLE

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Tusk,

You are obviously highly skilled in what might be called the art of debate at the academic level. Few, if any. members here at TalkJesus can match your skills in that area,myself included. So, let me level the playing field a bit: Have you ever read with a truly open mind any of the works of Christian apologists such as Josh McDowell, Charles Colson, Dallas Willard, C. S. Lewis?

SLE

Thank you for the accolades, sir. However undeserved they are, I am not here to debate. I already understand that is against the rules, but I will definitely accept and appreciate your compliment in kind.

In response to your references, I have read Lewis' Mere Christianity, Screwtape Letters, and The Great Divorce. Although, I don't know if I can say I read them with a truly open mind, because I was already a believer at the time. I haven't read any Josh McDowell, but I have been podcasting his sermons for a while now. As for Colson and Willard, I'm ashamed to admit I haven't heard of them yet. I'll gladly look into them though.

Why do you ask?

Tusk

 

[jiggyfly]

Loving someone simply because you're afraid He'll destroy you otherwise, is what any psychologist will call "Living in an abusive relationship."

Tis true and is common in many religions including the christian religious institution.

I'm curious, what motivated you to become a christian?

 

[kyval82]

[/COLOR]

Firstly, this opportunity has not been granted to all...say everyone who ever lived anywhere in the world prior to Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. And do you anticipate having free will in Heaven?

Ahhh.. but it has! Salvation has and will be taught to all souls. ALL will have a chance to hear and accept salvaton, for god said so, and what god says i shall believe..

Yes, yes, yes. We're all told about it, but IS IT REAL? I am doubtful. None of us actually knows what it's like, by the way. None of us has been there, and none of us has ever come back. We're told about Santa's workshop at the North Pole too, but you may be surprised to find Santa's workshop is actually just a story used to get children to behave.

HaHaHa.. First, I do not promote Santa Clause, When my Son asks I tell him that santa is simply the guy dressed up at the mall that you get your picture taken with, my son is five and knows that Christmas Is Jesus' Birthday!!!

You are right, I have not seen Hell, nor do I ever want to.. This is the same debate as for why you do not belive in Heaven as well although.. It is all by Faith that we believe. I have Faith that what God says is so. And I know it is real, both heaven and hell, because god says it is, and I choose to believe in His words.

 

[Word of Life]

Goodness, where to begin? The author is God? I don't believe you.

1Th 2:13
(13) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth the word of God, , which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

2Ti 3:16
(16) Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval.

God used believers of that time, who were guided by His spirit. As they were guided by God, they wrote down the scriptures, ''the written Word''.

Mar 12:36
(36) David, guided by the Holy Spirit, said, 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Take the highest position in heaven until I put your enemies under your control."'

Rom 8:14
(14) Certainly, all who are guided by God's Spirit are God's children.

2Pe 1:21
(21) No prophecy ever originated from humans. Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under God's direction.

And I don't know how many Christians will disagree with you...especially when an alleged contradiction arises.

What contradictions? The Word of God, cannot contradict itself. One needs to know the ages of administration, and who it's referring too, and what available for the beleivers today.

Rom 15:4
(4) For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

I can't count the times I've been told, "Well, you're just reading it out of context," or, "This is a book still written by fallible men." C'mon...if the God who loves us all wrote it, He would have made the text clearer, the language would have been understandable to all mankind.

The Word of God is clear. Learn about the administration and ages, who it's referring to, and what is our hope. I have found 95% of the Word of God, fits like a hand in a glove.

There would have been no reason for this current contention, and nothing to disagree about. It would be evident to everyone. It would definitely not look so human. And if the author is God, you are going to run into a whole lot of problems reading the OT.

Nope, for what I have learnt so, far, I have no problems with the OT, it's crystal clear and it's in alignment with the NT. Knowing the ages of aministations, is important.

"God has CLEARLY(?) told us..."? Again, I don't believe you. Don't get upset, just tell me why I should. Because this is absolutely unclear.

Why do you have a problem with this verse, why is it so un-clear to you.

1Jo 1:3
(3) This is the life we have seen and heard. We are reporting about it to you also so that you, too, can have a relationship with us. Our relationship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

If I came and said, it would be wise to have a good relationship with your mum and dad, is that unclear?

If it were clearly stated, we wouldn't have apologists around the world trying to explain and justify and make clear the atrocities of the past. People aren't stupid.
The Word of God is the will of God. OK, how do you know this?

God's will is written throughout His Word. Genesis through Revelation, reveals His plan. He has told us what He loves, and told us what He hates. He has told us His plan for Mankind, and reveals His promises. He promised to give us a new spirit and kept His promise.

Sit in your own room, your own private place and ask God to give you His spirit. Asking God to guide you, and He will. Go to God first, Put Him first and forget about man, and go to Him. Spend time with Him and speak to Him and He will guide you.

Luk 11:9-13
(9) And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
(10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
(11) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
(12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
(13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

[Tusk Barnes]

HaHaHa.. First, I do not promote Santa Clause, When my Son asks I tell him that santa is simply the guy dressed up at the mall that you get your picture taken with, my son is five and knows that Christmas Is Jesus' Birthday!!!

You are right, I have not seen Hell, nor do I ever want to.. This is the same debate as for why you do not belive in Heaven as well although.. It is all by Faith that we believe. I have Faith that what God says is so. And I know it is real, both heaven and hell, because god says it is, and I choose to believe in His words.

Haha. Alright, you are entitled to whatever faith you desire. I have no problem with that. And I salute your honesty with your child regarding Santa Claus...but just remember, Christmas isn't actually Jesus birthday either. Maybe that talk can wait though...He's only five, and saying "we don't actually know the date of Jesus' birthday" would probably just end up becoming a witch's brew.

Always good to hear from you.

 

[Tusk Barnes]

I've been researching this for a while.

I posted it in the blog section too, but I'll take your thoughts anywhere.

The concept of Hell is what got me started on my journey out of Christendom. I could not bear the thought that God would be punishing people I knew, or even people I didn’t know, in eternal hell. It was tearing me up so I started doing some research. Ironically, it is this same concept of Hell that keeps many people from questioning their religious beliefs. Seeing the many comments and concerns voiced by visitors and contributors to various threads on TJ, I thought it would be a good idea to revisit this topic myself.



Firstly, it is important to understand that only Christians would care about the concept of eternal hell and only Christians are worried about having a god that is roasting untold millions of people. Much of the world does not believe in Christianity and would have their own concerns with life and the prospective hereafter.

Vast numbers of people live in fear of this place of imagined unending torments in which Satan rules an underworld filled with unbelievers in Christ. Eternal punishment. Forever and ever and ever. I am not among this vast number, because all of this is nonsense. These are not interpretation of the Greek words of the Bible into English but rather theological overlays. Don't take my word for it. Let's look at what a few scholars have to say. This is by no means an exhaustive listing of the information available. So is “eternal hell” even in the Bible?

What of the word "eternal?"

Hebrew “olam” and Greek “aionios”. These are the two words that were erroneously translated into "everlasting" and "eternal." These words do not have those meanings. They refer to “age” or “eon“. Those might be long periods of time but they are not eternity.

• "All the way through it is never feasible to understand 'aionios' (Greek word translated eternal, everlasting, and for ever in many English Bible translations.) as everlasting." Dr. Nigel Turner

• "'Olam (the Hebrew for aion) simply signifies for a long time. The Hebrew Scriptures do not contain any doctrine of everlasting punishment." Rabbi Loewe

What about "hell?"

• Concordant Publishing Concern is a well-known publisher of Bible literature, including the Concordant Literal New Testament, Concordant Version of the Old Testament, Concordant Greek Text, and Concordant Commentary. They make the point strongly that the English word "hell" should NO LONGER be used in Bible texts because of the "corrupting influence of human tradition" that has given it the image of a place of torment where judged souls are condemned to spend eternity, an image that is simply untrue:

THE OLD ENGLISH “hell,” denoted that which is covered (hidden or unseen). Consequently, it once served as a suitable translation of the Greek "Hades," which means “imperceptible” or "unseen.” In modern English, however, due to the corrupting influence of human tradition, “hell” has come to mean “the abode of the dead; the place of punishment after death [in which the dead are still alive].” Consequently, since in modern English the notion represented by the term “hell” constitutes, to say the least, interpretation, not translation, it is unconscionable for modern translators to render either the Hebrew "Sheol" or the Greek "Hades" by this expression.

Yet it is worse still, whether in old English or modern English, to render the Greek "tartarosas" and especially the Greek "geenna," also as “hell.” Such “translations” are not translations at all; they are but the product of circular reasoning and hoary tradition. Whatever one’s understanding may be concerning the matters to which these words make reference, as a translation of the Original, the rendering “hell,” in all cases, is wholly unjustifiable. . (James Coram, "The Gahanna of Fire," Concordant Publishing Concern, 2006)​

The word hell does not appear in numerous editions of the Bible. For instance, the Young’s Literal Translation and the NAB [the New American Bible]. The other Bibles that have retained the use of the word hell have cut back on the number of times it is used. That would include the King James Version. Kind of like when an alcoholic “cuts back” on his drink of choice. He isn’t quite ready to give up drinking yet.

What of "fire and brimstone?"

Okay, so there is no "eternal" associated with divine punishment in the Bible nor is there the word hell. But doesn’t the lake of fire in Revelations prove that there is a hell? Great question, you guys.

• Charles Pridgeon addresses this in his scholarly work on the term BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulfur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulfur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' J. Preston Eby The Lake of Fire

So add it up, kids. The Bible actually says that God will judge in a given period of time for the purification and divine consecration of people. Wow! Where did the eternal torture chamber go? For surely it does not exist in this statement.

I could go on with this line of thinking, but truly the concept of an eternal hell in which people are endlessly tortured is not originally a concept that the Jews nor early Christians [who were, ahem, also Jews] "believed in".

Over time, the multicultural influences of other religions were incorporated into the Bible and Christian belief. But it is the medieval Christians, perhaps 1,000 years after Christ is said to have lived and died that perfected the belief in hell. And ever since then the depictions of hell have grown ever more graphic. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," anyone?


So how did we get to the hell being preached today? One reason is the drama of theater. Church was often just about the only entertainment available. It's definitely the only one I can still afford. Surely, there is the control aspect. If your priest or preacher tells you about hell and then saves you from it [all the while humbly proclaiming to only be doing God's work] then you owe him, don't you? There is the very human need to embellish. Some people like that God chose to save them from eternal hell and that makes them extra special Perhaps the saddest reasons is that those who are brainwashed into this mindset then go on to brainwash others, never giving any thought to whether or not hell might be a false concept.

I think there is one more reason hell has been elevated to above and beyond the pale of decency. The clergy can no longer force you to come to church by placing you in stocks or torturing you to turn to their version of Jesus. Thank God, I guess. So, they have perfected mental anguish and torment.

Use your own discernment and not the judgment of others when it comes to deciding whether or not there is an eternal hell. I certainly do not believe that this concept is contained in the Bible. Judgment and punishment, yes. But being damned to hell eternally. It just isn't there. So why not let it go?

I got over my belief in hell before I left the Christian faith but I did not get over my fear of hell until I did leave the Christian faith. I had to keep using my reasoning to over ride my ingrained fears that my slowly creeping apostasy would ruin me forever. It took a bit of time, but I no longer have panic attacks or nightmares. There is no eternal hell, and I will not be punished forever and ever. As one of our finest has said “And if you are worried about the consequences of a mistake, of hell for instance, just remember that fine old quotation which we all prove day after day after day, “To err is human. . .” (Alexander Pope – poet).

If there is a God, then he is surely aware of this, and cannot reasonably fault you for being . . . human.

For those who would give up their faith if it were not for eternal hell there should be nothing holding you back. Do not let other people think for you. Do your own thinking, whatever your religion or lack of religious beliefs. Maybe next time we can explore the morality of an eternal hell. Or delve deeper into the mistranslations of the Bible and why they have yet to be corrected. Or why the use of eternal hell elevates Christianity to the level of destructive cult. Or why hell concept is bad for children.

 

[jiggyfly]

Tusk as I asked before, what motivated you to become a christian?

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Tusk as I asked before, what motivated you to become a christian?

Oh yeah. Haha. Sorry, jiggyfly. I hope you didn think I was ignoring you. I just forgot you had asked.

Being "motivated" to become a Christian is a tricky concept, depending on whether you're Armenian or Calvinist, but I suppose if motivation is a factor, than I would say it was the same thing than motivates anyone to become a Christian...a desire to commune with the everlasting Godhead forever while avoiding Hell. I suppose I was motivated out of gratitude for Christ's sacrifice for me. For you. For everyone.

 

[jiggyfly]

I've been researching this for a while.

I posted it in the blog section too, but I'll take your thoughts anywhere.

The concept of Hell is what got me started on my journey out of Christendom. I could not bear the thought that God would be punishing people I knew, or even people I didn’t know, in eternal hell. It was tearing me up so I started doing some research. Ironically, it is this same concept of Hell that keeps many people from questioning their religious beliefs. Seeing the many comments and concerns voiced by visitors and contributors to various threads on TJ, I thought it would be a good idea to revisit this topic myself.



Firstly, it is important to understand that only Christians would care about the concept of eternal hell and only Christians are worried about having a god that is roasting untold millions of people. Much of the world does not believe in Christianity and would have their own concerns with life and the prospective hereafter.

Vast numbers of people live in fear of this place of imagined unending torments in which Satan rules an underworld filled with unbelievers in Christ. Eternal punishment. Forever and ever and ever. I am not among this vast number, because all of this is nonsense. These are not interpretation of the Greek words of the Bible into English but rather theological overlays. Don't take my word for it. Let's look at what a few scholars have to say. This is by no means an exhaustive listing of the information available. So is “eternal hell” even in the Bible?

What of the word "eternal?"

Hebrew “olam” and Greek “aionios”. These are the two words that were erroneously translated into "everlasting" and "eternal." These words do not have those meanings. They refer to “age” or “eon“. Those might be long periods of time but they are not eternity.

• "All the way through it is never feasible to understand 'aionios' (Greek word translated eternal, everlasting, and for ever in many English Bible translations.) as everlasting." Dr. Nigel Turner

• "'Olam (the Hebrew for aion) simply signifies for a long time. The Hebrew Scriptures do not contain any doctrine of everlasting punishment." Rabbi Loewe

What about "hell?"

• Concordant Publishing Concern is a well-known publisher of Bible literature, including the Concordant Literal New Testament, Concordant Version of the Old Testament, Concordant Greek Text, and Concordant Commentary. They make the point strongly that the English word "hell" should NO LONGER be used in Bible texts because of the "corrupting influence of human tradition" that has given it the image of a place of torment where judged souls are condemned to spend eternity, an image that is simply untrue:

THE OLD ENGLISH “hell,” denoted that which is covered (hidden or unseen). Consequently, it once served as a suitable translation of the Greek "Hades," which means “imperceptible” or "unseen.” In modern English, however, due to the corrupting influence of human tradition, “hell” has come to mean “the abode of the dead; the place of punishment after death [in which the dead are still alive].” Consequently, since in modern English the notion represented by the term “hell” constitutes, to say the least, interpretation, not translation, it is unconscionable for modern translators to render either the Hebrew "Sheol" or the Greek "Hades" by this expression.

Yet it is worse still, whether in old English or modern English, to render the Greek "tartarosas" and especially the Greek "geenna," also as “hell.” Such “translations” are not translations at all; they are but the product of circular reasoning and hoary tradition. Whatever one’s understanding may be concerning the matters to which these words make reference, as a translation of the Original, the rendering “hell,” in all cases, is wholly unjustifiable. . (James Coram, "The Gahanna of Fire," Concordant Publishing Concern, 2006)​

The word hell does not appear in numerous editions of the Bible. For instance, the Young’s Literal Translation and the NAB [the New American Bible]. The other Bibles that have retained the use of the word hell have cut back on the number of times it is used. That would include the King James Version. Kind of like when an alcoholic “cuts back” on his drink of choice. He isn’t quite ready to give up drinking yet.

What of "fire and brimstone?"

Okay, so there is no "eternal" associated with divine punishment in the Bible nor is there the word hell. But doesn’t the lake of fire in Revelations prove that there is a hell? Great question, you guys.

• Charles Pridgeon addresses this in his scholarly work on the term BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulfur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulfur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' J. Preston Eby The Lake of Fire

So add it up, kids. The Bible actually says that God will judge in a given period of time for the purification and divine consecration of people. Wow! Where did the eternal torture chamber go? For surely it does not exist in this statement.

I could go on with this line of thinking, but truly the concept of an eternal hell in which people are endlessly tortured is not originally a concept that the Jews nor early Christians [who were, ahem, also Jews] "believed in".

Over time, the multicultural influences of other religions were incorporated into the Bible and Christian belief. But it is the medieval Christians, perhaps 1,000 years after Christ is said to have lived and died that perfected the belief in hell. And ever since then the depictions of hell have grown ever more graphic. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," anyone?


So how did we get to the hell being preached today? One reason is the drama of theater. Church was often just about the only entertainment available. It's definitely the only one I can still afford. Surely, there is the control aspect. If your priest or preacher tells you about hell and then saves you from it [all the while humbly proclaiming to only be doing God's work] then you owe him, don't you? There is the very human need to embellish. Some people like that God chose to save them from eternal hell and that makes them extra special Perhaps the saddest reasons is that those who are brainwashed into this mindset then go on to brainwash others, never giving any thought to whether or not hell might be a false concept.

I think there is one more reason hell has been elevated to above and beyond the pale of decency. The clergy can no longer force you to come to church by placing you in stocks or torturing you to turn to their version of Jesus. Thank God, I guess. So, they have perfected mental anguish and torment.

Use your own discernment and not the judgment of others when it comes to deciding whether or not there is an eternal hell. I certainly do not believe that this concept is contained in the Bible. Judgment and punishment, yes. But being damned to hell eternally. It just isn't there. So why not let it go?

I got over my belief in hell before I left the Christian faith but I did not get over my fear of hell until I did leave the Christian faith. I had to keep using my reasoning to over ride my ingrained fears that my slowly creeping apostasy would ruin me forever. It took a bit of time, but I no longer have panic attacks or nightmares. There is no eternal hell, and I will not be punished forever and ever. As one of our finest has said “And if you are worried about the consequences of a mistake, of hell for instance, just remember that fine old quotation which we all prove day after day after day, “To err is human. . .” (Alexander Pope – poet).

If there is a God, then he is surely aware of this, and cannot reasonably fault you for being . . . human.

For those who would give up their faith if it were not for eternal hell there should be nothing holding you back. Do not let other people think for you. Do your own thinking, whatever your religion or lack of religious beliefs. Maybe next time we can explore the morality of an eternal hell. Or delve deeper into the mistranslations of the Bible and why they have yet to be corrected. Or why the use of eternal hell elevates Christianity to the level of destructive cult. Or why hell concept is bad for children.

Very nice post Tusk and it seems you may have answered my question of "what motivated you to become a christian". It seems by your post here that it was a fear of "hell".

 

[jiggyfly]

Tusk it seems we were posting at the same time. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[JDFree]

Considering the potential for loss & penalty for satisfying worldly lusts, preferring desires of self & ego over the Gift of Salvation & Eternal Life, I shudder deep in my soul. I’ll never take a church's ‘Doctrinal Position’ as my own without first surely proving it myself, beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever, by Scripture: the Word of Truth of my Almighty Holy God.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />

One knows in their heart, when they claim atheism, that they are fooling themselves. Simple to see: we know it’s impossible for one to even search all of earth in a lifetime, let alone the whole solar system, all the other solar systems, galaxies & vastness of universe to say for a certainty: “There is no God!” The agnostic knows they’re only ignoring the issue, hoping they can fool around and gamble that there’s no God, or else He’s really stupid & lame-brained, “Well it’s not my fault, God, I never knew you were there!” But He’ll say, “Nonsense: you could see I am there by my creation, and I spoke but you ignored me!”

Just what is 'damnation'? First, God doesn’t ever ‘SEND’ men to hell! Devils, yes: SENT! Man? No, it’s always a result of a man’s decisions in his personal free will, choosing to reject the good that is God, and choosing the opposite of good/God, which will eventually be evil/hell. Always a matter of personal choice, in the desires of the heart. No ‘good’ person is going to hell, in my opinion. Instead ‘good’ people are the ones mentioned in ‘Predestination’, chosen before the foundations of the world. God knows what they’ll choose, so He reveals the mystery to them, and allows them a free will decision: Good/God or Bad/Hell. However one can be led astray from ‘goodness’, so it’s always a choice, not a commission. It wouldn’t be fair to force a person to heaven either, and God wants everyone to be there of their own free will. Predestination in its deepest concept exceeds the ability of man to understand. In a certain respect, Satan himself caused hell to ever be caused as a place, when he desired & tried to usurp the Throne of God! Did God force him to? NO!

Some think Hell's an endless party, just in a different world of hell forever, with Satan reigning as host & king over the wild & bawdy celebrations, reveling in every lewd debauchery, perversion & wickedness for all the rest of eternity. Some imagine God leaves those hellions the earth, when He takes all the Christians to heaven. Others imagine that death will only bring that, and once over, ho-hum, that's it, gone. Others believe in some mysterious purgatorial place of penance, that after 'doing their time' with prayers of those still living on earth, they’ll soon be released to heaven's rewards. They believe they’ll somehow purge their own 'mortal & venial' sins in 'Purgatory' and then heap to themselves riches of heaven. Yet others believe in translation of spirit to a place of great joyful spiritual omnipotent oneness within some mystical universal omniscient life being existence; while others look forward to rebirth as a swift running gazelle or soaring eagle instead of a sewer rat or a microbe in a pile of camel excrement.

According to Scripture this Life is a Gift of the Entity of God, given from His own substance of Life in His Beings. If a man chooses to separate himself from God he has decided to separate from the Entity of God in His Beings forever; to cast away eternal Life in God, and choose instead eternal death without end. That’s death without end: as conscious ongoing death experience, not just a matter of ‘POOF’ going up in a vapor and gone.

In another day all Life will be drawn back in to God's Life in His Heaven of heavens; and we in it who have chosen Life in Him as the eternal bride of Christ, one flesh with Him for eternity. The lower heavens will be rolled up as a scroll, burning with fervent heat until heaven & earth pass away.

The 'others' as souls of the damned in death who refused God will exist as cognizant, thinking beings but in a void of lifeless, formless, motionless darkness forever. By the complex Physical Law created by God, science has proven Energy is neither created anew or destroyed in the physical world. One Physical Law of Entropy, 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, shows that at end of Motion, when all available Energy for Motion is consumned, the leftovers result only in heat; fervent heat as a flame of fire forever. God has caused that Energy may neither be created nor destroyed, because its Source is His own Entity of God.

Therefore this eternal Entropic heat may never be quenched! There will not be Energy given there by God to cause or allow Motion of life, He will take that Home. Still enough residuals of Entropic Energy after Motion’s work will remain to cause fervent expended heat forever. That's because there’ll be nowhere for this Energy to transfer to, as to a heat sink by conduction, or by convection or other cooling transferrence effect, or even any other place for it to travel to at all. It shall remain right where it is forever, within a being who formerly had life. Hell with all its resident beings will be cast off from the Presence of God forever as He draws all of His Truth of Life in Love Energy into himself, along with all His children who’ve chosen Father’s Life in Love as their own!

The rest inherit an empty void of shapeless nothingness immersed in fiery heat of spent Energy as searing Entropy for all of their days forever. By God’s design and Will just enough Energy for intellect & spirit of those continues in a black, smoldering, motionless void of horror, beause that spirit & intellect are comprised of Energy which cannot be destroyed. Receiving only that chief desire of their heart: SELF & only self alone in their eternal soul’s being, they’ll contemplate their decision for all of the yawning waste of dark eternity into trillions of years of forever. It’s to me incomprehensible to imagine an eternal existence of billions times trillions of years of motionless, formless, powerless, totally silent, utter blackness of emptiness beyond description as a being, burning in continual flames of fire without even the ability to cry out or turn away in any way! Not even one cool drop of water will exist to quench the insatiable thirst. The eternal mind/soul is Energy itself with thinking intellect; but with life taken away & only spirit consciousness remaining, married to the Entropic heat leftovers of all of its former motions in life forever.

The only miniscule consolation, for some: their Entropic existence is that which results from their own work of Motion in the world before death. For some this is very bad news, due to their extreme activity in ungodly things: more evil & wickedness = more heat! For others as various levels of couch potatoes in a godless life the heat will be less according to their lesser Energy spent in evil: but enough, surely enough. Because Energy can neither be created or destroyed, God simply [for Him] saves up all of a godless man's Energy residuals of Entropy from their activities wasted in the desires of their hearts of Self throughout life; then returns it to them for all of eternity of death, minus the life-motion Energy spent. It’s now contained in the vacuum of space, awaiting until that is rolled up & condensed into a single place of hell.

Therefore the penalty of suffering in hell is directly proportional to a man's activites in life. Of course this includes the Energy of thoughts & imagination, so no doubt there will be some very intense hot spots here & there throughout hell. No reason whatsoever to believe that there will be any social or other interaction at all with other formless, disembodied beings there after death, because any Energy required for that, even that needed for maintenance of a form & shape let alone motions, will be denied.

Elementary science: but the man inherits the exact eternal reward that he most desired in life: SELF! That’s enjoyed as a spent empty shell consumned in fire with an eternal intellect which will hear total silence, feel total emptiness, see total darkness to experience & feel nothing but intense heat forever as it becomes the center & total of his death’s being, while he cogitates over his former life's decisions for a very, very, very long time indeed.

Yes, that’s ‘Hell’ allright! Think I’ll pass on that one, thanks dear Jesus! All men choose....
JDFree

 

[Tusk Barnes]

Tusk it seems we were posting at the same time. Thanks for answering my question.

Sure thing! Sorry about the confusion. I just forgot. Haha. I'm only human, eh?


JDFree,

I can't wait to get into your post. I'm sorry it's so late, or I would delve into it right now!

Tusk