Yeah, I just about had to pry my face off the keyboard a few times too!
Eternity in Hell
- Thread starter Cody
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Yeah, I just about had to pry my face off the keyboard a few times too!
Can you make your post again including scripture references?Considering the potential for loss & penalty for satisfying worldly lusts, preferring desires of self & ego over the Gift of Salvation & Eternal Life, I shudder deep in my soul. I’ll never take a church's ‘Doctrinal Position’ as my own without first surely proving it myself, beyond any shadow of doubt whatsoever, by Scripture: the Word of Truth of my Almighty Holy God.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice
One knows in their heart, when they claim atheism, that they are fooling themselves. Simple to see: we know it’s impossible for one to even search all of earth in a lifetime, let alone the whole solar system, all the other solar systems, galaxies & vastness of universe to say for a certainty: “There is no God!” The agnostic knows they’re only ignoring the issue, hoping they can fool around and gamble that there’s no God, or else He’s really stupid & lame-brained, “Well it’s not my fault, God, I never knew you were there!” But He’ll say, “Nonsense: you could see I am there by my creation, and I spoke but you ignored me!”
Just what is 'damnation'? First, God doesn’t ever ‘SEND’ men to hell! Devils, yes: SENT! Man? No, it’s always a result of a man’s decisions in his personal free will, choosing to reject the good that is God, and choosing the opposite of good/God, which will eventually be evil/hell. Always a matter of personal choice, in the desires of the heart. No ‘good’ person is going to hell, in my opinion. Instead ‘good’ people are the ones mentioned in ‘Predestination’, chosen before the foundations of the world. God knows what they’ll choose, so He reveals the mystery to them, and allows them a free will decision: Good/God or Bad/Hell. However one can be led astray from ‘goodness’, so it’s always a choice, not a commission. It wouldn’t be fair to force a person to heaven either, and God wants everyone to be there of their own free will. Predestination in its deepest concept exceeds the ability of man to understand. In a certain respect, Satan himself caused hell to ever be caused as a place, when he desired & tried to usurp the Throne of God! Did God force him to? NO!
Some think Hell's an endless party, just in a different world of hell forever, with Satan reigning as host & king over the wild & bawdy celebrations, reveling in every lewd debauchery, perversion & wickedness for all the rest of eternity. Some imagine God leaves those hellions the earth, when He takes all the Christians to heaven. Others imagine that death will only bring that, and once over, ho-hum, that's it, gone. Others believe in some mysterious purgatorial place of penance, that after 'doing their time' with prayers of those still living on earth, they’ll soon be released to heaven's rewards. They believe they’ll somehow purge their own 'mortal & venial' sins in 'Purgatory' and then heap to themselves riches of heaven. Yet others believe in translation of spirit to a place of great joyful spiritual omnipotent oneness within some mystical universal omniscient life being existence; while others look forward to rebirth as a swift running gazelle or soaring eagle instead of a sewer rat or a microbe in a pile of camel excrement.
According to Scripture this Life is a Gift of the Entity of God, given from His own substance of Life in His Beings. If a man chooses to separate himself from God he has decided to separate from the Entity of God in His Beings forever; to cast away eternal Life in God, and choose instead eternal death without end. That’s death without end: as conscious ongoing death experience, not just a matter of ‘POOF’ going up in a vapor and gone.
In another day all Life will be drawn back in to God's Life in His Heaven of heavens; and we in it who have chosen Life in Him as the eternal bride of Christ, one flesh with Him for eternity. The lower heavens will be rolled up as a scroll, burning with fervent heat until heaven & earth pass away.
The 'others' as souls of the damned in death who refused God will exist as cognizant, thinking beings but in a void of lifeless, formless, motionless darkness forever. By the complex Physical Law created by God, science has proven Energy is neither created anew or destroyed in the physical world. One Physical Law of Entropy, 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, shows that at end of Motion, when all available Energy for Motion is consumned, the leftovers result only in heat; fervent heat as a flame of fire forever. God has caused that Energy may neither be created nor destroyed, because its Source is His own Entity of God.
Therefore this eternal Entropic heat may never be quenched! There will not be Energy given there by God to cause or allow Motion of life, He will take that Home. Still enough residuals of Entropic Energy after Motion’s work will remain to cause fervent expended heat forever. That's because there’ll be nowhere for this Energy to transfer to, as to a heat sink by conduction, or by convection or other cooling transferrence effect, or even any other place for it to travel to at all. It shall remain right where it is forever, within a being who formerly had life. Hell with all its resident beings will be cast off from the Presence of God forever as He draws all of His Truth of Life in Love Energy into himself, along with all His children who’ve chosen Father’s Life in Love as their own!
The rest inherit an empty void of shapeless nothingness immersed in fiery heat of spent Energy as searing Entropy for all of their days forever. By God’s design and Will just enough Energy for intellect & spirit of those continues in a black, smoldering, motionless void of horror, beause that spirit & intellect are comprised of Energy which cannot be destroyed. Receiving only that chief desire of their heart: SELF & only self alone in their eternal soul’s being, they’ll contemplate their decision for all of the yawning waste of dark eternity into trillions of years of forever. It’s to me incomprehensible to imagine an eternal existence of billions times trillions of years of motionless, formless, powerless, totally silent, utter blackness of emptiness beyond description as a being, burning in continual flames of fire without even the ability to cry out or turn away in any way! Not even one cool drop of water will exist to quench the insatiable thirst. The eternal mind/soul is Energy itself with thinking intellect; but with life taken away & only spirit consciousness remaining, married to the Entropic heat leftovers of all of its former motions in life forever.
The only miniscule consolation, for some: their Entropic existence is that which results from their own work of Motion in the world before death. For some this is very bad news, due to their extreme activity in ungodly things: more evil & wickedness = more heat! For others as various levels of couch potatoes in a godless life the heat will be less according to their lesser Energy spent in evil: but enough, surely enough. Because Energy can neither be created or destroyed, God simply [for Him] saves up all of a godless man's Energy residuals of Entropy from their activities wasted in the desires of their hearts of Self throughout life; then returns it to them for all of eternity of death, minus the life-motion Energy spent. It’s now contained in the vacuum of space, awaiting until that is rolled up & condensed into a single place of hell.
Therefore the penalty of suffering in hell is directly proportional to a man's activites in life. Of course this includes the Energy of thoughts & imagination, so no doubt there will be some very intense hot spots here & there throughout hell. No reason whatsoever to believe that there will be any social or other interaction at all with other formless, disembodied beings there after death, because any Energy required for that, even that needed for maintenance of a form & shape let alone motions, will be denied.
Elementary science: but the man inherits the exact eternal reward that he most desired in life: SELF! That’s enjoyed as a spent empty shell consumned in fire with an eternal intellect which will hear total silence, feel total emptiness, see total darkness to experience & feel nothing but intense heat forever as it becomes the center & total of his death’s being, while he cogitates over his former life's decisions for a very, very, very long time indeed.
Yes, that’s ‘Hell’ allright! Think I’ll pass on that one, thanks dear Jesus! All men choose....
JDFree
Hi Jiggy,
I may add some Scripture references at a later time. It's not all 'Scripture based', same as if I talked of an eyeball, or time/space continuums, or fluid dynamics or any other physical thing. Part is already revealed & known within creation, interpreted by Science. Almost hilarious, yet pitiful, that man in his terribly lofty view of self thinks he invented Science! No, pompous little man, what you did was finally find a way to partially interpret one miniscule smidgeon of the magnificent Science of God's creation!
It's for those who hold to secular view, insisting all of this silly stuff in the Bible is fairy tales for gullible idiots. Yeah? Well, think outside that box! Take what God has said, view what is known as Scientific fact, compare and weigh the evidences. What we find is our Bible's description of hell is perfectly in keeping with everything we know about atomic structure, theory, physics of Energy/Mass/Motion/Time, and any related Science!
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, an invaluable Bible study tool, gives every incidence of a word in the Bible with definitions & where it's found in particular verses. Hell is mentioned numerous times and various parts of descriptions are given. Most have a general picture: eternal, hot, painful, suffering etc. As for the other, we know the sinner is cast off, and "...that which he hath shall be taken away." Well, what hath he? Simple: spiritual & physical: Soul & body: SELF & form, all that he came into life with! So, leave him Self because that's eternal him & take away all the rest of his physical substance & what's left? Nothing, just as I described; thinking experiential intellect & formless, shapeless nothing.
Heaven & earth rolled up like a scroll, fervent heat, heaven [the lower heaven of creation, not the 3rd heaven of God] & earth destroyed we know from the Word. I simply showed it's perfectly in keeping with elementary Physical Science. God deals with His physical creation physically. The sinner desires SELF and the physical World, so, he receives the desires of his heart: but having no idea what it was he selfishly demanded, despite God's warning! The Bible explains Science, and Science proves the Bible, and God created both.
I may add some Scripture references at a later time. It's not all 'Scripture based', same as if I talked of an eyeball, or time/space continuums, or fluid dynamics or any other physical thing. Part is already revealed & known within creation, interpreted by Science. Almost hilarious, yet pitiful, that man in his terribly lofty view of self thinks he invented Science! No, pompous little man, what you did was finally find a way to partially interpret one miniscule smidgeon of the magnificent Science of God's creation!
It's for those who hold to secular view, insisting all of this silly stuff in the Bible is fairy tales for gullible idiots. Yeah? Well, think outside that box! Take what God has said, view what is known as Scientific fact, compare and weigh the evidences. What we find is our Bible's description of hell is perfectly in keeping with everything we know about atomic structure, theory, physics of Energy/Mass/Motion/Time, and any related Science!
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, an invaluable Bible study tool, gives every incidence of a word in the Bible with definitions & where it's found in particular verses. Hell is mentioned numerous times and various parts of descriptions are given. Most have a general picture: eternal, hot, painful, suffering etc. As for the other, we know the sinner is cast off, and "...that which he hath shall be taken away." Well, what hath he? Simple: spiritual & physical: Soul & body: SELF & form, all that he came into life with! So, leave him Self because that's eternal him & take away all the rest of his physical substance & what's left? Nothing, just as I described; thinking experiential intellect & formless, shapeless nothing.
Heaven & earth rolled up like a scroll, fervent heat, heaven [the lower heaven of creation, not the 3rd heaven of God] & earth destroyed we know from the Word. I simply showed it's perfectly in keeping with elementary Physical Science. God deals with His physical creation physically. The sinner desires SELF and the physical World, so, he receives the desires of his heart: but having no idea what it was he selfishly demanded, despite God's warning! The Bible explains Science, and Science proves the Bible, and God created both.
Thank you, and I pray that Jesus will bless you, even if your faith is gone. I pray whatever it may be that has caused it, that God will help you with it, and please friend always know that god loves you, and faith is what it is all about. Faith that the son came to die and to save us from our sins, and that does include all of our sins, those who choice to believe and those who do not. But you are loved by Him!
Tusk Barnes
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Thank YOU, for being Jesus-like and not just Christian.
Well I am not sure how to take that remark Tusk B.
As i have said before Tusk you need to meet Him. If you can possibly spend the time to engage in 'seeking for Jesus'.....by pray...if it takes weeks to get yourself away from all else, if you meet and find Him......You will never be the same again.
"Narrow is the Way"....it has been quoted......."few find it" and it was Jesus who said it. Some get religeous but they have not found it, or that way. That "Way" it is Jesus.
"That "Way" it is Jesus."
Man, oh man, oh man, oh man, YES! YES!
It's been a long time now, but I just don't think I'll ever really get used to it: GOD wants to be my best friend??? GOD sent me a 'friendship request'??? GOD, even GOD signed it in His own blood, with HIS life given for mine?
Man, oh man, oh man, beyond amazing! Amazing Grace that is...
Man, oh man, oh man, oh man, YES! YES!
It's been a long time now, but I just don't think I'll ever really get used to it: GOD wants to be my best friend??? GOD sent me a 'friendship request'??? GOD, even GOD signed it in His own blood, with HIS life given for mine?
Man, oh man, oh man, beyond amazing! Amazing Grace that is...
Tusk Barnes
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Rest assured, Stephen, you can take it in the most positive way possible. I am not here to attack people, so you never have to worry if an unclear comment is an insult.
Per your advice, I will continue seeking the way, the truth, and the life. Chad has given me a recommendation for reading as well as some similar filmography. I'll be looking into those, as well, since he believes they are a credible representation of the evidence for the truths of the Christian faith. I've also taken an indirect book recommendation from rojoloco.
I suppose the rest, seeking aside, is not up to me.
Per your advice, I will continue seeking the way, the truth, and the life. Chad has given me a recommendation for reading as well as some similar filmography. I'll be looking into those, as well, since he believes they are a credible representation of the evidence for the truths of the Christian faith. I've also taken an indirect book recommendation from rojoloco.
I suppose the rest, seeking aside, is not up to me.
Tusk Barnes
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JDFree...
I'm sorry, man. I couldn't do it. I tried and tried and tried to respond as kindly as possible, but I couldn't do it. There was just too much nonsense to glean through to try and pick out those nuggets of wisdom I know you have. I was hoping to go in depth, but when I realized how mean I sounded, I decided against it.
This is what is left.
If I may make a couple of requests in the nicest way possible. Please, learn what words mean. Your understanding of Atheism, Agnosticism, theism, and Gnosticism is void, at the moment. I encourage you to learn what these terms mean before you say...well anything...about people whom these words describe.
There's also a lot you've got to learn about physics. Your God is Energy quip made me think you were teetering on the edge of pantheism. If God is energy, then we already have a word or God...it's energy. What do we need Him for?
I'm sorry, man. I couldn't do it. I tried and tried and tried to respond as kindly as possible, but I couldn't do it. There was just too much nonsense to glean through to try and pick out those nuggets of wisdom I know you have. I was hoping to go in depth, but when I realized how mean I sounded, I decided against it.
This is what is left.
If I may make a couple of requests in the nicest way possible. Please, learn what words mean. Your understanding of Atheism, Agnosticism, theism, and Gnosticism is void, at the moment. I encourage you to learn what these terms mean before you say...well anything...about people whom these words describe.
There's also a lot you've got to learn about physics. Your God is Energy quip made me think you were teetering on the edge of pantheism. If God is energy, then we already have a word or God...it's energy. What do we need Him for?
That is the most wonderful thing you could ever say:embarasse but I do not deserve that. Thank you, and thank you for being open and honest, and I truly pray that you and God will once again regain a relationship my friend.
No, Tusk, you've never insulted me.... yet hah! My hot button is people TEACHING lies and heresies and apostacy on a CHRISTIAN FORUM as if their garbage is truth & fact & Scriptural & acceptable Christian doctrine. You've already seen some of my reactions. Also I do understand that men's beliefs will vary, and so did Jesus. I'm quite sure that's the purpose for inclusion of Acts 15 in Scripture, a pretty amazing treatise all in all!
I'm always pleasantly & enjoyably challenged by your keen mind and excellent command of language, and your understanding of many difficult things. In many cases it's obvious to me that your eduction & IQ very likely exceeds mine by leaps & bounds. That said, that may be our greatest enemy as well, or as worst. I for one am truly happy you're here and it's fun to read your very, hmmm, I don't want to say clever, because that sounds like it's devious... okay, 'erudite' is maybe the word I want; erudite posts.
The post about hell and references to physics of course isn't intended as venue for educating anybody on that subject of physics. It's merely to show, as simply as I could, that the Bible's words describing hell aren't some goofball spiritual wooie-wooie mumbo jumbo, but are instead 100% acceptable within a perspective of fundamentals of physical science. That is, that it makes perfect sense from a scientific standpoint, not just theological. Also, because realtively [pun] few have a working knowledge of physics it's rudimentary, bordering on incorrect concepts, for the sake of demonstration.
As for my understanding of agnosticism or atheism et al, that's based on personal experience with folks, and what they have said they believe, after claiming they are one or another of those non-beliefs. I was present at a most hilarious encounter you would have enjoyed immensely, between an avowed atheist and a very competent Christian thinker. The latter took about 2 minutes to reveal that the former's belief wasn't at all that there was no God! No, instead he clearly & succinctly proved that the person believed in his own god 'Atheos' and even explained the worship & ceremonies! As the atheist was a friend of mine I can say that this particular portrayal, with that underlined, was 100% accurate, even though this fella didn't know my atheist friend from Ronald McDonald.
It must be seen that within these 2 non-belief systems of belief, because all is addressed in the negative, that viewpoints can vary hugely! There cannot possibly ever be a solid foundation and clear cut distinction & description of belief in non-belief. What color is that which is not? The whole post is a generalized view of things so within that I'll have to stick by my understanding of the general view of Atheist and Agnostic thoughts. Truth be known, it's impossible for there to be an 'atheist belief' of no belief in God: because by that thought they have a belief, and it regards God, and they believe it! More correctly, it's just another religion by another name.
Thanks, Tusk, everything's okay on this end...
JDFree
By the way, couple of other things. I'm not properly schooled in basics of Physics though it's been a hobby of mine for about 20 years in Theorectical Physics. So that which was printed was more 'Physcial Science' than Physics per se. I'm in strong disagreement with some of the currently accepted fundamental 'beliefs' in Physics so whenever I address the subject I'm sure to tick somebody off haha!
But regarding God being Energy: no insult there to God, and He knows my views. It's sort of like your comment that if God is Energy then what do we ned God for if we've already got Energy? It's not about the Energy, but the Substance and attributes and fullness of just what that Energy might be. Obviously, God would have some real tactical problems if He wasn't in some part Energy, unless He's got some alternative thing besides Energy that we don't know about. I mean, Jesus came as a flesh & blood man, but not correct to say, "Well then, there's no difference between Him & any other man.": WRONG!
If God chooses His nature to be ensconced in Energy, that's His business, not mine. I do see however that Energy is most surely a focal point of much of His Entity and actions, so it's interesting to consider. If it is the entirety of all Energy as God with Intellect, Will, Personnage, Form, Substance, emotions, desires, and all the rest, then no matter if He's Energy or not, as long as He is happy with it. I am, if that's His Entity.
Tusk Barnes
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I'm not disagreeing with this idea, because God is so often undefined or counter-defined by various believers...and you are entitled to believe He is however you wish. The only problem I have with the idea though, is that energy is entirely physical. It is finite. It is measurable, it is observable. Its processes take place over durations of time and distances of space. God is said to exist outside of these parameters. An infinite, incorporeal, invisible being such as a god does not embody any of the known characteristics of energy.
This idea sort of runs along the lines of Zeus is lightning. Or Thor is thunder. Maybe you hadn't made that connection, and I certainly am in no place to judge you or your ideas, being a non-theist myself...but had you and I met during my years of belief, I might have admonished you for possibly putting such limitations as energy on God.
Let's both be glad those days are over. Haha.
Tusk Barnes
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Please accept the compliment. Rest assured, I will only ever say what is worth saying. Thank you for your well-wishes and hope. Perhaps you're correct, and perhaps I'll be "found" again, so to speak.
"I'm not disagreeing with this idea, because God is so often undefined or counter-defined by various believers...and you are entitled to believe He is however you wish."
*Amen!
"The only problem I have with the idea though, is that energy is entirely physical."
*Ah, but that may be a problem with perspective, and limited knowledge!
"It is finite."
*Correction: It is assumed to be finite: by those men whose thoughts and words are within a finite world.
"It is measurable, it is observable."
*Yes, of that which is revealed of it; but nothing says that is the whole of it, like the proverbial [though I must say, I've never seen mention of it in Proverbs] tip of the iceberg. They could at least say which iceberg, to help us out a little, or at the least, which Proverb.
"Its processes take place over durations of time and distances of space."
*Yes, in a Space/Time Continuum, which has no necessary or proven relationship to an Eternal God within His Eternity beyond Time & Space.
"God is said to exist outside of these parameters."
*Yes.
"An infinite, incorporeal, invisible being such as a god does not embody any of the known characteristics of energy."
*My God is infinite, but not incorporeal, not invisible: and is a multiplicity of Being within Entity: and embodies all of the characteristics of Energy, if He is: as He would thereby be the Master of Energy while being embodied of all of its characteristics: as Energy is a thing known, and it causes power, and causes motion, and can be seen at times, and can be felt, and can be heard, and causes language, and writing of words, and can be without, or can be within, or can be taken within, and is the substance of thought, and of intellect, and of emotion, and is the ruler of time, of birth, of life, of renewal, of death, of decay, of heat, of cold, of morning, of night, of stars and planets and celestial objects in the lower heavens, and of here, and of now, and of before, and of after, and of speed, and of acceleration, and of deceleration, and of weight, and of form, and of substance, and of mass, and of light, and of darkness, and of all things known to man ever, at any time, where time is applicable.
"This idea sort of runs along the lines of Zeus is lightning. Or Thor is thunder."
*Larger.
"Maybe you hadn't made that connection,"
*Maybe I had.
"and I certainly am in no place to judge you or your ideas,"
*Well, I think you are, for what it's worth.
"being a non-theist myself"
*Yes, maybe.
"...but had you and I met during my years of belief, I might have admonished you for possibly putting such limitations as energy on God."
*Then again, you might not: if there are no limitations whatsoever, other than that which He chooses, in the Eternal Almighty Lord God of all and forever.
"Let's both be glad those days are over. Haha"
*On the contrary, I believe it would have been most exciting; but that which has not yet been is not a limit to that which might be, unless it is not: and so be it as it shall be.
*Amen!
"The only problem I have with the idea though, is that energy is entirely physical."
*Ah, but that may be a problem with perspective, and limited knowledge!
"It is finite."
*Correction: It is assumed to be finite: by those men whose thoughts and words are within a finite world.
"It is measurable, it is observable."
*Yes, of that which is revealed of it; but nothing says that is the whole of it, like the proverbial [though I must say, I've never seen mention of it in Proverbs] tip of the iceberg. They could at least say which iceberg, to help us out a little, or at the least, which Proverb.
"Its processes take place over durations of time and distances of space."
*Yes, in a Space/Time Continuum, which has no necessary or proven relationship to an Eternal God within His Eternity beyond Time & Space.
"God is said to exist outside of these parameters."
*Yes.
"An infinite, incorporeal, invisible being such as a god does not embody any of the known characteristics of energy."
*My God is infinite, but not incorporeal, not invisible: and is a multiplicity of Being within Entity: and embodies all of the characteristics of Energy, if He is: as He would thereby be the Master of Energy while being embodied of all of its characteristics: as Energy is a thing known, and it causes power, and causes motion, and can be seen at times, and can be felt, and can be heard, and causes language, and writing of words, and can be without, or can be within, or can be taken within, and is the substance of thought, and of intellect, and of emotion, and is the ruler of time, of birth, of life, of renewal, of death, of decay, of heat, of cold, of morning, of night, of stars and planets and celestial objects in the lower heavens, and of here, and of now, and of before, and of after, and of speed, and of acceleration, and of deceleration, and of weight, and of form, and of substance, and of mass, and of light, and of darkness, and of all things known to man ever, at any time, where time is applicable.
"This idea sort of runs along the lines of Zeus is lightning. Or Thor is thunder."
*Larger.
"Maybe you hadn't made that connection,"
*Maybe I had.
"and I certainly am in no place to judge you or your ideas,"
*Well, I think you are, for what it's worth.
"being a non-theist myself"
*Yes, maybe.
"...but had you and I met during my years of belief, I might have admonished you for possibly putting such limitations as energy on God."
*Then again, you might not: if there are no limitations whatsoever, other than that which He chooses, in the Eternal Almighty Lord God of all and forever.
"Let's both be glad those days are over. Haha"
*On the contrary, I believe it would have been most exciting; but that which has not yet been is not a limit to that which might be, unless it is not: and so be it as it shall be.
