Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Gracealone]

Thank you ElderPaul, I can understand now why we differ, but that is ok.
When the rapture comes ,and we rise to meet our Lord in the air I'm sure it wont matter anymore whether it is pre, post, or which ever, it will happen, and that is what counts.
I am a Pre- trib, and that's OK also, it isn't a salvation issue.
I'm sure you love the Lord with all your heart, as I do, so Praise God we are covered by his marvelous grace..... amen

 

[ElderPaul]

Thank you ElderPaul, I can understand now why we differ, but that is ok.
When the rapture comes ,and we rise to meet our Lord in the air I'm sure it wont matter anymore whether it is pre, post, or which ever, it will happen, and that is what counts.
I am a Pre- trib, and that's OK also, it isn't a salvation issue.
I'm sure you love the Lord with all your heart, as I do, so Praise God we are covered by his marvelous grace..... amen

Yes my dear, I love the Lord with all my heart, and I love His word as well. That is why It disturbs me when someone twists scripture to make it say what they want it to say.

The apostle Paul told young Timothy, 'And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful
men, who shall be able to teach others also". 2 Tim 2:2.

We should be very careful of what we teach. The Lord gave a very harsh warning in Rev 22:18, 19. He said that if you add anything to the
prophecy of this book [ Revelation ] he will add the plagues of this book to you. And, if you take anything away, he will take away your part out of the book of life. That sounds like a salvation issue to me.

Let me give an example:
I have debated people who believe in a pre-trib rapture. They TEACH
that Rev 4:1 is the rapture of the church. John is told to "come up hither" to be shown things that must be hereafter. John said that he was immediately IN THE SPIRIT, and he saw many things around the throne of God.

First of all, they are ADDING another meaning to this verse. Second, they are taking away the real meaning. They are guilty of doing both of the thing Jesus said not to do in Rev 22:18, 19. Do they worry? They
don't even blush. How about you Grace, would you feel comfortable doing that?

Another example:
Jesus dictated seven letters to the seven churches that were in existence at the time John was on Patmos. While we know that ALL
SCRIPTURE is to be used for teaching, exhortation, edification, and etc,
we need to keep scriptures in context. Pretribs teach that the seven letters are seven church ages, and that we are now in the last one,
Laodicea. They teach that the Laodicea church age is the apostate
church that will fall to antichrist. Those that still believe in the true God, and his son Jesus, are of the Philadelphia church age, which is the
sixth. As you probably already know, there was a promise made to the Philadelphian church. Because they had kept the word of His patience,
he was going to keep them from the hour of temptation that was going to come on the whole earth to try them that dwell upon the earth.

If you do a search, you can find, as I did, a great persecution came upon the churches in and around the area we call Turkey at the turning of the first century. The church of Philadelphia was taken care of by God, and survived the persecution. He KEPT THEM FROM the evil, John
17:15. Jesus gave them a promise, and he kept it.

Pretribs base their pretrib belief on scripture like Rev 3:10, & 4:1. They teach that the Philadelphian letter is a direct letter to the endtime church, promising escape from the tribulation period. Not to be kept from the evil, but to be taken out of this world before it begins.

I don't know how much you know about what your belief [ pretrib ] is based on, but if I were you, I would start studying it for myself. God is a great God of love, but he is also a jealous God of wrath. I wouldn't be in those pretrib teachers boots for the world.

Sorry I wrote so much. I just want everyone to have knowledge about
things that concern them.

Love you in the Lord,
elderPaul

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

ElderPaul,

Do you still believe in the post-tribulation rapture, as you so vehimently have stated on talkjesus before?


LoJ

 

[Gracealone]

I gave my heart to the Lord when I was 6 1/2 years old.
Jesus saved my life, both spiritual, and physical, and he will never leave me, nor forsake me.
I count it all joy when men revile me ,persecute me, and say all manner of evil against me falsely, for great is my reward in Heaven.
May God be glorified.

You said, and I quote:

We should be very careful of what we teach. The Lord gave a very harsh warning in Rev 22:18, 19. He said that if you add anything to the
prophecy of this book [ Revelation ] he will add the plagues of this book to you. And, if you take anything away, he will take away your part out of the book of life. That sounds like a salvation issue to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Salvation is by grace alone, but I do agree we should be very careful what we teach.
To miss represent our Lord can be a serious matter.

To say we have to believe in a mid trib, or pre trib to be saved ,or be in danger of losinng ones salvation is a wrong teaching
.
Eph. 2:8
For by grace are you saved, though faith, and that not of yourselves
it is a gift of God. Not of works less any man should boast.

God knows my heart, and I can depend on him.
My heart belongs to Jesus, and I have no fear he will ever reject me.
My Hope is built on nothing less than His Love, and His righteousness.
His word is my strong tower, and it is truth, and it is life.

I believe we will be taken up to be with our Lord very soon, and I have no doubt that he will welcome me with loving arms.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
On this I rest, and find my peace, for he chose me,and now I love him for all eternity.

 

[youngjohn]

If we accept Isaiah 26:17 - 27:6 as a valid outlline of future events, we notice some points. If the Great Tribulation is in verse 18, and the Wrath of God is in verse 21, then the two are not the same, and between the two will come the resurrection of the saints in verse 19 and the rapture of the saints in verse 20.

We should not confuse the tribulation with the wrath of God. The tribulation saints who will be put to death will not be killed by God but by Satan.

The tribulation will be relatively short, 42 months, Rev. 13:5-7.

Not all saints living at that time will die in the tribulation. Luke 21:36 (ESV) says, "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

John

 

[Gracealone]

God bless as we all seek to know him better.

 

[ElderPaul]

I gave my heart to the Lord when I was 6 1/2 years old.
Jesus saved my life, both spiritual, and physical, and he will never leave me, nor forsake me.
I count it all joy when men revile me ,persecute me, and say all manner of evil against me falsely, for great is my reward in Heaven.
May God be glorified.

You said, and I quote:

We should be very careful of what we teach. The Lord gave a very harsh warning in Rev 22:18, 19. He said that if you add anything to the
prophecy of this book [ Revelation ] he will add the plagues of this book to you. And, if you take anything away, he will take away your part out of the book of life. That sounds like a salvation issue to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Salvation is by grace alone, but I do agree we should be very careful what we teach.
To miss represent our Lord can be a serious matter.

To say we have to believe in a mid trib, or pre trib to be saved ,or be in danger of losinng ones salvation is a wrong teaching
.
Eph. 2:8
For by grace are you saved, though faith, and that not of yourselves
it is a gift of God. Not of works less any man should boast.

God knows my heart, and I can depend on him.
My heart belongs to Jesus, and I have no fear he will ever reject me.
My Hope is built on nothing less than His Love, and His righteousness.
His word is my strong tower, and it is truth, and it is life.

I believe we will be taken up to be with our Lord very soon, and I have no doubt that he will welcome me with loving arms.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
On this I rest, and find my peace, for he chose me,and now I love him for all eternity.

You have ignored all the finer points that I made, and then tried to put
words in my mouth that I didn't say.

You said, that I said, "To say we have to believe in a mid-trib, or pretrib to be saved, or be in danger of losing our salvation is a wrong teaching".

I didn't say that! I said what Jesus said. I quoted it straight from his word. Rev 22:18,19. The subject doesn't matter. If you teach that Jesus was a woman, when the bible says he is a man, then you are teaching wrong, and you are sinning against the Holy Word.

I said, to change Rev 4:1, and teach that this is the rapture is wrong.
Jesus said, do not add to the word!

And then you quoted Eph 2:8, a verse I am very aware of. Did you think that I believed we are saved by works?

One of us has an understanding problem. Maybe it's me. The one factor we have not touched on, is "Once saved, always saved". If you believe that way, then I can understand your refusal to recognized Rev 22:18, 19. Your belief woud be that no matter what you did, God would not reject you. If you believe that way, then you need to tear Rev 3:5, and Rev 22:18, 19, out of your bible.

God bless you and may he give you wisdom and knowledge, and understanding of his word.

 

[ElderPaul]

ElderPaul,

Do you still believe in the post-tribulation rapture, as you so vehimently have stated on talkjesus before?


LoJ

I believe what the Lord Jesus said concerning His coming. Do you still believe that Rev 3:10, is for the endtime church? If so, can you show me any documentation in the word that says that?

 

[ElderPaul]

If we accept Isaiah 26:17 - 27:6 as a valid outlline of future events, we notice some points. If the Great Tribulation is in verse 18, and the Wrath of God is in verse 21, then the two are not the same, and between the two will come the resurrection of the saints in verse 19 and the rapture of the saints in verse 20.

We should not confuse the tribulation with the wrath of God. The tribulation saints who will be put to death will not be killed by God but by Satan.

The tribulation will be relatively short, 42 months, Rev. 13:5-7.

Not all saints living at that time will die in the tribulation. Luke 21:36 (ESV) says, "But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

John

God bless you brother John. As you have already experienced, there are some people here who will not accept the word of God that states
that the tribulation is not the same event as the DAY of the Lord.
The only reason I am still here is to sharpen my understanding of the coming of the Lord. And to see what they come up with next.

I posted a new thread explaining how to debate a pretribber. I guess it really was a sarcastic message to them. Really, there is no way to debate a pretribber. You can't win in an event where the rules are made up as you go. When they believe that you can take a certain verse of scripture, glean a meaning out of it that is not anywhere near
the purposed meaning, there is no righteous way you can win in making them believe the truth.

I have challenged LOJ to give me documented proof that the letter to the church of Philadelphia is to the endtime church, and he continues
ignoring it. Why? Because Rev 3:10 is a major crutch to their house of straw. Since they don't have a direct statement of scripture that says
there is a COMING [ any coming ] of the Lord BEFORE the tribulation, then they have to go with what they can fabricate.

God bless, and have fun.

 

[Gracealone]

that the tribulation is not the same event as the DAY of the Lord.
The only reason I am still here is to sharpen my understanding of the coming of the Lord. And to see what they come up with next.

In every way that you accuse others you are doing the same.
No one that I know of has said the tribulation is the same as the day of the Lord.
There may be some confusion of terminology, that I haven't seen, but
From the time I have been in here we are simply saying we believe in a pre-trib catching away of the church....

1Thes 4:17 is a vrs for the catching away of Gods church.......

"Then we which are alive,and remain shall be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air": so shall we ever be with the Lord."
The catching away in the air is unique , and not to be confused with the Lords second return
.
When he comes again the second time he will come on a white horse to rule and reign.

We then are with him,here on earth for 1000 years, at the end of that 1000 years Satan will be loosed for a time,so the mortals here on earth have a chance for a choice,(for they have been ruled with a rod of iron), then Satan, and all who choose to go with him will be cast into hell for eternity....

Then there will be a new Heaven, and a new earth.
Evil will no longer be, for all eternity.
Revelation 19:-23:

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

I believe what the Lord Jesus said concerning His coming. Do you still believe that Rev 3:10, is for the endtime church? If so, can you show me any documentation in the word that says that?

I have challenged LOJ to give me documented proof that the letter to the church of Philadelphia is to the endtime church

You should look back over my posts. I've never made a reference to that scripture, and whether or not it was the end time church.
But if it's not, who then is it referring to? Why can't it be the church raptured at this time of the beginning?

Do you still believe in the post-tribulation rapture, as you so vehimently have stated on talkjesus before?

You never answered this question.

..they don't have a direct statement of scripture that says there is a COMING [ any coming ] of the Lord BEFORE the tribulation..

Where did Enoch go?
The scripture is unclear as to where Enoch went. He didn't go to heaven because, "no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man".

But the word does say that Elijah went to "heaven". What gives? I don't know.

If these two were taken to heaven without Jesus coming back to earth to get them,
why is it so hard to believe, or at least consider, that the same event can happen to the bride?


No matter when it does happen, either pre or mid, the conviction upon peoples hearts (Jews mainly) will be overwhelming. Praise God

 

[Gracealone]

Vrs. to show the wrath of God,in the tribulation time table:

Revelation6:16
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Revelation11:18
And the nations were, angry, and thy wrath is come and the time of the dead, that
they should be judged ,and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants ,the prophets
and them that fear thy name, small and great: and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation ; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Revelation 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon
came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fiercness of his wrath.

 

[Gracealone]

I have challenged LOJ to give me documented proof that the letter to the church of Philadelphia is to the endtime church

Revelation 1: 2:,and 3: are the letters to the churches.
The existing churches God chose out of that day to represent the churches throughout history.
They also represent individuals throughout history.

From the time the Jews became a nation again, we are that generation that shall not pass away before the Lord comes......so the Phiadelphia is the church of this generation as the Laodicea church is the one who enters the tribulation, being neither cold or hot.
God said he would rather they were cold, or hot, but because they are lukewarm he will spew them out of his mouth....Rev.3:14 Maybe you would rather be the Laodicean church?
The fact that we are in the generation of the Jews becoming a nation again places us in that time table.
Proof enough .

 

[youngjohn]

There are reasons for believing the Bible teaches a post tribulation rapture.

I have read a little of the writings of the early church fathers, and I found none of them teach the modern pretrib rapture theory. But that fact does not prove a post trib event. It is the text of the Bible that should decide the question it.

I am greatly impressed by the use of the term parousia in Paul's description of the rapture in 1 Thess. chapter 4 and the same term in Matt. 24. It seems reasonable to conclude that if it refers to the rapture in one place, it does so in the other.

A pretrib magazine recently stated that "the word can describe either the rapture or the second coming," In stating this, the author adjusted the definition of the word to fit his own pretrib assumptions.

Parousia is a Greek word usually translated as coming. But it is translated as presence in the KJV in 2 Cor. 10:10. The word itself is composed of two Greek words, one meaning alongside and the other a form of the verb to be. It literally means being alongside or being present.

Only with the believer is Jesus said to continue alongside, never with the unbeliever. It would not be appropriate to use for the second coming if that is understoond to refer to unbelievers.

The word is used of the "day of God" In 2 Peter 3:12, perhaps because that relationship between the sinner and God's judgment will be lasting. I want to give other reasons for my view but that would make this piece too long.

The word parousia of Jesus is never used in the Bible in the plural because it is a one time event.

John

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

There are reasons for believing the Bible teaches a post tribulation rapture.
John

John, you missed this:


http://bible.logos.com/passage/kjv/Rev. 21.9

Rev. 21:9 ~ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, " Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."



1st.. the angel is one who carries the seven bowls of the last plagues. And the bowls are Full !
They've not been poured out on the earth yet.
2nd.. the angel says to John I will show you the wife of the Lamb.
The bride and groom are united in marriage and together in the Holy City.

http://bible.logos.com/passage/kjv/Rev. 21.9http://bible.logos.com/passage/kjv/Rev. 21.9


Post trib rapture does not exist.


LoJ

 

[Gracealone]

Looking back over the multitude of pages of this subject it is clear we are divided and will continue to be....
I feel it is fruitless to continue, at least it is for me.

As long as we agree on the Salvation issue, then God will call us home at his appointed time,and that is all I desire anyway.

To those who are truly born again, God Bless you, each one, and those who may not be born again, I pray you will be soon.
I desire to fellowship on a topic we can agree on, and not bring contention into the fellowship here.
Love in Christ, Gracealone

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

As to salvation, we've never disagreed on the subject of Jesus being the only way.

As long as we agree on the Salvation issue, then God will call us home at his appointed time,and that is all I desire anyway.

..and not bring contention into the fellowship here.

Contention.. no, I hope not also. But spirited debate.. I see it as healthy.
An intillectual stimulaion of the brain housing group. :hotfly:

God bless you Gracealone,

Marco

 

[Gracealone]

Thank you, and God bless you also.

:friends:

 

[youngjohn]

Why believe in a post tribulation rapture? Here is another reason for it. Matthew 24 tells us the Elect will be gathered immediately after the Tribulatlion. Pretribbers say this gathering is of Jews who want to go back into the land of Israel, not of the Church to go to heaven.

These gathered ones -- where will they come from? Mark 13:27 (ESV) says "And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." Some from earth and some from heaven. How could Jews return from heaven unless they were part of the Church?

It is the Church who will come from heaven. The "dead in Christ" will return. 1 Thes. 4:16-17 (ESV) reads, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

So those gathered ones in Matthew 24 must be the Church at the rapture, and it is stated to be after the tribulation.

John

P.S. Loj: The verses you quoted are true. But it is not clear to me what you deduce from them. If it were clear, I would happily comment on them.

J

 

[youngjohn]

I have sometimes been rebuked for studying the Bible doctrine of the Great Tribulation. I am told, "Jesus told us to look for His return, not for the tribulation." Is that true? Then why did He say in Matthew 24:33 (ESV), "So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates." He had just told them what will happen at the tribulation. It will be a sign preceeding His coming.

John

John