Figure of speech/colloquialism?

[rstrats]

Sue D.,
re: "so I'll wait and see how Other posters respond."

Well so far all of the posters' have responded with posts which have only consisted of off topic comments. But you never know, it's possible that someone new visiting the topic may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

And that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

 

[Sue D.]

Good luck with that.

 

[rstrats]

Sue D.,
re: "Good luck with that."

Thanks.

 

[rstrats]

No luck so far.

 

[rstrats]

But perhaps someone new visiting the topic may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

 

[Sue D.]

I was just looking at the Matthew account. chapter 26 : 2 " after two days is the Passover and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified." not really a direct quote -- a paraphrase. But I think that's the only mention of a 'day' activity being the Passover. Other than that we are given the activities that took place rather than the days of the events.

1st day of the week resurrection -- part of a day = a day. So we have early morning the day after the Sabbath - 1st day of the week. So back track and the crucifixion Could have taken place on Friday as the RCC holds to. Then we also have the comparison of Jonah being in the belly of the great fish 3 days and 3 nights. So shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth. So a night extends from when to when.

It's been stated that there's a slight difference between the Hebrew and Greek calendars?! But we Do know specifically the resurrection took place 'early morning on 1st day of the week / After the Sabbath.

The next question then -- the 'heart of the earth' goes further than the tomb. The heart of the earth would be going deep inside of the earth. The tomb would be surface. Besides Jesus Christ went down to set the captives free IF they chose to listen to His gospel that Would set them free. Those in Paradise would be going back up with Him -- those in the other area would have the choice of believing Then and returning back up with Him.

I don't think it's a matter of either figures of speech Or colloquialism -- but simply the stating of facts.

 

[rstrats]

Sue D.,

Your comments deal with issues for a different topic. Perhaps you might start one.

 

[Sue D.]

We've just been talking on the other thread. And what other topic would you be talking about. The Hebrew / Greek calendars? No thanks. I'm simply sharing what I've heard.

So -- what other topic do you have in mind?

 

[rstrats]

Sue D.,
re: "...what other topic do you have in mind?"

A topic or topics for you to discuss the various issues that you brought up in your post #90.

This particular OP is concerned with one issue and only one issue, i.e., examples which show the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

 

[Sue D.]

Personally, I think you're being a bit 'picky' in your 'considerations'

For instance -- the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ was a one-time event -- therefore -- there would be no commonality needing to be considered. No figures of speech to be considered. There Are those who debate the Sabbath vs Sunday worship. That's usually the question being discussed.

Same would apply to the virgin conception. A one-time-in history occurrance. Biologically that was an impossible event which is why it's called a miracle.

 

[Sue D.]

The only 'issue' I brought up was the variance between those two calendars. Not going to get into that discussion. Because someone would want to know Why there's a variance. Simply two different calendars that I'm aware of. Other than That -- no discussion.

 

[rstrats]

Sue D.,
re: "...the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ was a one-time event -- therefore -- there would be no commonality needing to be considered. No figures of speech to be considered. "

The figure of speech has to do with saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.



re: "There Are those who debate the Sabbath vs Sunday worship. That's usually the question being discussed."

And that would be a discussion for a different topic.



re: "The only 'issue' I brought up was the variance between those two calendars."

That would be incorrect. Some of the issues you brought up are:

"Isn't is more to the point that 'as Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days , so the Son of Man will be in the earth for 3 days.'"

"Jesus Christ arose early the first day of the week- so count Back three days and we get Wednesday for the day of the crucifixion. It's Also true that part of a day equals an entire day. which would put it sometime Thursday."

"...your question seems to be about the fact that back then and in that culture or whatever it would be called. A part of one day was considered as a day -- it didn't Have to be an entire day to be Considered a day."

"There are those who advocate Sabbath worship because of the Ten Commandments. And they see no reason to change the Sabbath worship to 1st day of the week / Sunday worship."

"And there a passages in New Testament that says if a person wants to worship on the Sabbath let them -- if a person wants to worship on Sunday, let them. The important thing is taking time To worship.

"There Are those who don't want to accept that Jesus Christ really Was the Son of God."

"Maybe it's like the 'discussion' concerning the creation of the world as is found in Genesis. as to whether or not a 'day' was really a 'day' or an eon --a much longer period of time. The verse that says that one day is as a thousand and a thousand as one day. So that a 'day' of creation Could have been a thousand years. Because That would accommodate those who want a theistic evolution."

 

[B-A-C]

If we take 2Pet 3:8; literally then creation would have 6 thousand years, not 1 thousand years.

The figure of speech has to do with saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

Why do you think this?

Matt 28:1; Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.

Mark 16:2; Very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen.

John 20:1; Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene *came early to the tomb, while it *was still dark, and *saw the stone already taken away from the tomb.

Luke 24:1; But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.

Clearly the resurrection happened early Sunday morning. All four gospels agree on this. There is no way to dispute this.

Now what day was Jesus crucified, that is another matter. It wasn't "good Friday" for sure. Was it Maundy Thursday? Possibly.

Jesus died very near the "9th hour" (3pm)

Matt 27:45; Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour.
Matt 27:46; About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI, ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
Matt 27:47; And some of those who were standing there, when they heard it, began saying, "This man is calling for Elijah."
Matt 27:48; Immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
Matt 27:49; But the rest of them said, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
Matt 27:50; And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Mark 15:33; When the sixth hour came, darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mark 15:34; At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
Mark 15:35; When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, "Behold, He is calling for Elijah."
Mark 15:36; Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down."
Mark 15:37; And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last.

Ok, Jesus died around 3pm. But what day? Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; John 20:1; and Luke 24:1; all say Jesus was already risen "very early" or "before the dawn" as some Bibles put it.
Let us say it was around 6am. It could have been 5am or earlier, but it doesn't matter too much.

24 hours previous to 6am Sunday, would have been 6am Saturday.
24 hours previous to 6am Saturday would have been 6am Friday. So far we only have 48 hours or two days. So it wasn't "good Friday".
24 hours previous to 6am Friday would have been 6am Thursday. Now we have 72 hours, or 3 days.
But we see above that Jesus died about 3pm.

We could start the "count-down" from 3pm, however technically Jesus wasn't in the tomb yet.

Matt 27:57; When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who himself had also become a disciple of Jesus.
Matt 27:58; This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him.
Matt 27:59; And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
Matt 27:60; and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.

"When it was evening". This is probably the vaguest time frame in the entire story. My "best guess" (yes, opinion) is likely around 7 or 8pm.
But pick anytime you like between 4pm or 9pm, it doesn't matter that much.

If the minimum time Jesus could be "in the grave" was 72 hours or 3 days. Then Jesus would have had to be crucified on a Wednesday.
If "3 days and nights" was a figure of speech, and 3 nights is "close enough". Then Jesus could have been crucified on Thursday.

But there is no way it was earlier than Wednesday, or no way it was later than Thursday, that's for certain.

At the end of the day... what difference does it make? Did Jesus rise on the 3rd day or after the 3rd day? To me, it doesn't matter, the fact is.. He rose!

 

[rstrats]

B-A-C,
re: "Why do you think this?"

This topic is about the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. With regard to the Messiah's forecast that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights there may be some 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection believers who try to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech of the period. I am simply asking anyone who thinks this if they might provide examples which show that it was common usage.


re: "Clearly the resurrection happened early Sunday morning. All four gospels agree on this."

Although it has nothing to do with this topic, your Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1 and John 20:1 references say nothing with regard to when the resurrection actually occurred.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- excellent post.

Another way to look at it -- a baby is born on a certain day. Say "12: 01 am -- the very beginning of that particular day -- that baby is officially born -- or it could be at 3 pm -- still part of that same day -- or it could be born at 11: 59 pm -- still part of that same day. The very next day - that baby is 2 days old. even though that baby has only really been in this world for a few minutes. The baby in the nursery next to it might have been born at 12:59 pm on that same day. There's 12 hrs. difference in that day in their birth time, but it's still the same day -- the babies' are 12 hrs. younger or older than each other but born the same day. And the next day, they are both 2 days old. and the following day are both 3 days old. But there's no doubt that they were both born on that particular day.

We Do have the Biblical comparison -- As Jonah was in the belly of the fish for 3 days, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights. -- Matthew 12:40 -- we Do have That, also.

Yes, Jesus Christ Did rise bodily from the heart of the earth on that 3rd day.

 

[rstrats]

Sue D.,

Your comments in post #97 do not show an example where it is said that a baby's first day consisted of at least a portion a daytime or at least a portion of a night time when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred.

 

[Sue D.]

@rstrats -- Any parent / doctor Knows that. I've given birth to 4 babies. Why are you fighting this so much. And Why do you seem to insist that 'no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could have occurred." -- of Course it did. on what basis do you believe that He might have been buried and rose again the same day? That's what you're suggesting. So , therefore , Jesus Christ didn't Really die and was up and out the same day? That's what the Roman soldiers were trying to Prevent. The huge bolder was put in front of the tomb to Prevent anyone from entering and taking His body out and trying to say He rose again. The 'powers that be' did Not want any 'risen 'Savior' to exist. But , they got one Anyway.

 

[B-A-C]

This topic is about the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur.

Why? Also why could no part of a daytime or night occur? Are you hung up on the "part" of a day.. it's not exactly 72 hours? Does that really change anything?
Why do you believe this? Do you think everyone had wrist watches and cell phone then? God knew what time it was, but for everyone else... it was morning or it was evening.
One of the men's Bible studies I used to attend a few years ago, didn't really ever have a "set" time. Sometimes it started at 8:30am, or sometimes it started at 10am.
Usually it started somewhere between those times. It started whenever we had enough people to get started. Even that was a moving target sometimes.

The word "second" is never used is context of time in the Bible. The word "second" appears 42 times in the New Testament (depending on which translation you use)
But it's always in context of chronological order. (The second brother, the second husband, the second commandment, etc...)
The word "minute" isn't in my Bible at all. I suspect it would have been difficult to meet someone at exactly 9:28 am.
The word "hour" is in the New testament 85 times. Usually in the context of a "generic hour". (No one can add add an hour to their life, no one knows the hour I will return, etc...)
But a few times a specific hour is given... (the 6th hour, or 9th hour) The death of Jesus is one of those places. Now it may be that God had it all planned down to the
micro-second. I can hear the coroner now... "Jesus died at 3:09 and 22 seconds past the hour". But then again.... maybe the "hour" or the "day" is close enough for God.

Although it has nothing to do with this topic, your Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1 and John 20:1 references say nothing with regard to when the resurrection actually occurred.

I disagree, it was Sunday morning "before the dawning of the day". An exact hour might not be mentioned, but an exact time-line is given. The sun came up at a specific time. (minute, second)
The "Son" came up sometime before that. If you can't see this, then something is wrong. You can't always start in the middle. You have to start from a set baseline.