Futurism and preterism

Eric E Stahl · Jan 7, 2013

David777 said:
Eric there are problems with this eschatology, Jari has pointed
out one of the issues.

"This means that we, with the influence of the Holy Spirit in us, are presently preventing worldwide corruption"

Corruption is immense and world wide, we Christians have had virtually
no effect on this corruption. Hence Eric, the restrainer may not be the
Holy Spirit as you seem to think. Remember that your eschatology of
a mid tribulation rapture is only one of numerous theoretical constructions.

I still do not believe that you think Christians prevent corruption?

David,

<style>  </style> 2 Thessalonians 2:6–12 KJV
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in
his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

38 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
—2 Thessalonians 2:6–12 KJV

Paul explains that someone is restraining the Antichrist. When that someone is removed from the scene, the Antichrist will come to power. The Christians who have the Holy Spirit in them are the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13–16). This means that we, with the influence of the Holy Spirit in us, are presently preventing worldwide corruption the same way that the proper amount of salt preserves country ham. When God calls the Christians up in the air to go to heaven (during the rapture), He will also remove the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit. At that time, the Antichrist will be revealed and come to power after the Christians have gone to heaven.

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(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Prophecy Psalms 68:18 KJV, fulfillment of prophecy Ephesians 4:8 KJV

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 also see John16:7-8 KJV which explains that the Comforter or Holy Spirit will reprove sin in the world when He comes into the church.

(3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14 KJV,
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4, and the
redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. Revelation 15:1-4KJV

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV

(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV

David777 · Jan 7, 2013

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;

If the mystery of lawlessness is currently taking place
would it not follow that corruption is also taking
place Eric.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 7, 2013

David777 said:
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;

If the mystery of lawlessness is currently taking place
would it not follow that corruption is also taking
place Eric.

As we approach the end of the last days people will get worse and worse 2 Timothy chapter three. The salt is losing its savor.

jari · Jan 7, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
Jari,

I will show you two or three passages that are describing the same time as Matthew 24:29-31. This is not the common understanding but I believe it is correct.

Mid Tribulation

Eric

there is certainly tribulation shown in those verses but mat 24 talks of return after tribulation and there is only one gathering & return in sripture as i pointed out, so i don't see that part being left for speculation. i also hope that you notice that not any trubulation or persecution is the tribulation Jesus was talking about in Mat 24. Christians as well jews have gone through many tribulations during history and jews even had their tribulation in holocaust.

God bless you

jari · Jan 7, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
When God calls the Christians up in the air to go to heaven (during the rapture), He will also remove the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit. At that time, the Antichrist will be revealed and come to power after the Christians have gone to heaven.

i have always wondered when people say this... that Paul would tell church who would be the restrainer that they should not expect son of perdition to come until the restrainer is removed?

it seems that is entirely because of different route of interpreation is being taken of "2 thes 2" and what day of christ means and the gathering.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 7, 2013

jari said:
Eric

there is certainly tribulation shown in those verses but mat 24 talks of return after tribulation and there is only one gathering & return in sripture as i pointed out, so i don't see that part being left for speculation. i also hope that you notice that not any trubulation or persecution is the tribulation Jesus was talking about in Mat 24. Christians as well jews have gone through many tribulations during history and jews even had their tribulation in holocaust.

God bless you

Jari,

When the Lord comes down to the mount of Olives and splits it so the army of Israel can flee from the antichrist in the middle of the tribulation, the lord will go back to heaven. That is when the mid tribulation caching up of dead saints from the first half of the tribulation happens.

<style>  </style> Mid Tribulation

Zechariah 14:1–5a KJV
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided
in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal.

Zechariah saw a vision of Jewish women being rescued. In the middle of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come against Israel because they will not worship him or his image. As the armies of the world close in on the remnant of Israel, everything looks lost and hopeless.
However, at that time, the Lord Jesus will help Israel by making a way of escape. Jesus will split the Mount of Olives from east to west so that it forms a great valley when the two halves of the Mount of Olives move north and south. Israel will flee down that valley to the east while the armies of the world are stranded on the top of the Mount of Olives and all around Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:15–17 KJV
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION 125

Satan will send a great army of soldiers to pursue the fleeing Jews. Do you remember what happened to the king of Egypt’s armies when they chased Israel through the divided Red Sea in the book of Exodus? (See Exodus 14:21–31.) Something similar is going to happen again. When the army of the Antichrist follows Israel down the valley, the Mount of Olives will swallow them, infuriating Satan.

Isaiah 16:1–5 KJV
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Jesus, the Lamb of God, is going to sit on the throne of Israel. Jesus comes to Israel to split the Mount of Olives so that Israel can flee from the dragon and the Antichrist’s army. Israel will go east, down the Lord’s valley, cross the Jordan River, turn right, and travel about one-third of the way down the other side of the Dead Sea to the river ford or the river crossing on the Arnon River in the country of Jordan and stay with the survivors of Moab.
Keep in mind that Daniel 11:41 tells us that Edom, Moab, and Ammon (Jordan) will escape out of the control of the Antichrist.
God spares Jordan from occupation by the Antichrist because the people of Israel who were not taken to America will be going there to live for three-and-a-half years with the survivors of Moab at the river ford on the Arnon River. Notice that Isaiah 16:3 says that the Lamb will make the noonday as night with a shadow! Remember this verse, because it is a clue to the location of the kingdom of the Antichrist. Later we will

126 AMERICA’S LAST WARNING

see that the shadow is from a permanent solar eclipse over Israel. While
that sounds impossible, nothing is impossible with God.

<style>  </style> (3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14 KJV,
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4, and the
redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. Revelation 15:1-4KJV

jari · Jan 7, 2013

Eric, you already posted those scriptures but I don't see any talk about rapture in there...

David777 · Jan 7, 2013

Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on,
and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold,
two men in white clothing stood beside them.
11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?
This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same
way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

If Jesus returns in exactly the same manner as He left,
this is not possible to debate as the scripture is clear.

Now we read,

2 Thessalonians 1
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus
will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

The correlation is exact, Jesus returns in the same way from heaven this the
same event as Acts 1.

The precise time of the "day of the Lord" is revealed by Paul.
Is it in the middle of a seven year tribulation?

2 Thessalonians 2
2...to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy
comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

It is beyond any doubt that the man of lawlessness is revealed at Christ's
return! This occurs on the day of the Lord.

Then we have

2 Thessalonians 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath
of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Christs return is not multiple returns, but one single event.
The antichrist is revealed and destroyed on His return.
Jesus returns once as the angels specified in Acts 1.
He returns once, called "THE DAY OF THE LORD".

So Christ will gather us together on the same day as He
destroys the man of lawlessness. Rapture and destruction
are events taking place on one solitary day.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 7, 2013

jari said:
Eric, you already posted those scriptures but I don't see any talk about rapture in there...

Jari,
They are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven. You can say raptured or caught up. They were on earth but were redeemed to heaven at the middle of the tribulation. The church age believers will be caught up before the tribulation.

<style>  </style> (3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14 KJV,
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4, and the
redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. Revelation 15:1-4KJV

Eric E Stahl · Jan 7, 2013

David,

Jesus came to earth, lived as a man, died for our sins rose from the dead went back to heaven and took captivity captive and gave gifts unto men the first time.
<style>  </style> (1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Prophecy Psalms 68:18 KJV, fulfillment of prophecy Ephesians 4:8 KJV

Jesus will come the second time to the atmosphere of the earth and catch up the church age believers.
<style>  </style> (2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the Christian nations. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 also see John16:7-8 KJV which explains that the Comforter or Holy Spirit will reprove sin in the world when He comes into the church.

Jesus will come to earth the third time at the middle of the tribulation when the antichrist calls all the armies of the world to attack Israel see Zechariah 14:1-4 and Isaiah 16:1-5 and Revelation 12:14-17. The antichrist will control Jerusalem for the last half of the tribulation Revelation11:1-2.
<style>  </style> (3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14 KJV,
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4, and the
redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. Revelation 15:1-4KJV

Jesus will come to earth the 4th time at the end of the tribulation with the army of heaven Revelation 19:11-21 He will revive the dead saints from the last half of the tribulation at that time.
<style>  </style> (4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4KJV
<style>  </style>
(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15KJV

Thiscrosshurts · Jan 8, 2013

David777 said:

Christs return is not multiple returns, but one single event.
The antichrist is revealed and destroyed on His return.
Jesus returns once as the angels specified in Acts 1.
He returns once, called "THE DAY OF THE LORD".

I tend to agree with this statement but would like to point out that Jesus IS the Day.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Acts 1
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on,
and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold,
two men in white clothing stood beside them.
11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?
This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same
way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

If Jesus returns in exactly the same manner as He left,
this is not possible to debate as the scripture is clear.

How many saw him go to heaven?
This seems to indicate personal revelation

Matthew 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

The allegedly future events in Matt chapters 24-25 seem to indicate that the individual actions of a single believer can trigger a coming of a Day.

The "Day of the Lord" is a person who is Lord OVER time,space and matter so why do we look to the sky(space) for a Day (time)
when time and space don't matter.

jari · Jan 8, 2013

Hi Eric

Eric E Stahl said:
They are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven. You can say raptured or caught up. They were on earth but were redeemed to heaven at the middle of the tribulation. The church age believers will be caught up before the tribulation.

(3)The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation11:3,7-14 KJV,
the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. See Revelation 14:1-4, and the
redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. Revelation 15:1-4KJV

that interpreation depends on the question are Revelation chapters in chronical order? and assuming they are it still doesn't say there they were raptured in middle of tribulation - this depends on what actually is meant by that great tribulation in the bible?
I believe the answer is in mat 24 where it says Immediately after the tribulation (mat 24:29). And we cannot leave this scripture out... unless your are pre-trib believer who somehow has right to say this is talking about jewish rapture (not the christian) without scriptural evidence, because it doesn't say in the bible there are such thing as jewish rapture or two comings or returns of Lord.

revbrad · Jan 8, 2013

Sorry to jump in the middle of this discussion but there is something I would like to say.

I have discussed this with many different people and there are many interpretations and points of view.

I am not trying to de-rail your discussion (it is very interesting) but I would like to say to those who are unsure or wondering what will happen...just be ready

Be ready if He comes before tribulation
Be ready if He comes mid-tribulation
Be ready if He comes post tribulation

Be grounded and rooted in Christ so that whatever comes you will be able to stand.
There is much tribulation in the world, there are those suffering and dieing for the faith, it could happen to you great tribulation or not.
Could you stand? Only a close relationship with Christ will give the strength needed to do so.

I do not claim to know exactly how things will unfold, but I do know that however they unfold, whatever comes, it is only through Christ I will be able to stand.

Again, I apologize for jumping in.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 8, 2013

jari · Jan 8, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
The seven angels which will deliver the last 7 vial judgments are seen in Revelation 15:1 when the tribulation saints are already redeemed. Verse 8 indicates the 7 judgments have not happened yet.

The tribulation that has passed in Matthew 24:29 is the first 3.5 years during which the world wars will have killed half of the population of earth. Verse 30-29 describe the Lord Jesus coming to the Mount of Olives to help Israel escape from the antichrist’s army.

yes i think you can use those scriptures to support both post-trib and mid-trib. it depends a lot on is rev in chronocial order or not.
if we look at the seals of the lamb the 7'th seal is opened after people are in heaven. But does the book of revelation repeat after this only the new events or tell of the events before or during the seals? (there's also vials and trumpets of God and the seven last plagues)

And there are a LOT references of God's people , specifically people with Testimony of Jesus in the later chapters of Revelations.

For example:

9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Eric could you please not past those same scriptures in the thread all the time you already posted them three times.. it floods the thread and i read them already. thanks

God bless you

Eric E Stahl · Jan 8, 2013

jari said:
yes i think you can use those scriptures to support both post-trib and mid-trib. it depends a lot on is rev in chronocial order or not.
if we look at the seals of the lamb the 7'th seal is opened after people are in heaven. But does the book of revelation repeat after this only the new events or tell of the events before or during the seals? (there's also vials and trumpets of God and the seven last plagues)

And there are a LOT references of God's people , specifically people with Testimony of Jesus in the later chapters of Revelations.

For example:

9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Eric could you please not past those same scriptures in the thread all the time you already posted them three times.. it floods the thread and i read them already. thanks

God bless you

Jari,

Did you notice the shadow at noon day when Israel is fleeing from the antichrist army? It is a permanent solar eclipse. During a solar eclipse you can't see the sun because it is behind the moon and you can't see the stars because of a twilight condition. This is the cause of the darkness from Mathew 24:29-31. It stats in Habakkuk 3:11-13 before Armageddon. Joel talks about it and Amos talks about it and Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-22 even describes it in the kingdom age.

David777 · Jan 8, 2013

Hello Eric.

I have an issue with the following verse of yours.

"The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught
up to heaven before the antichrist is given power in the
Christian nations."

Your claiming that the rapture occurs before the antichrist
is given power! Paul states that the rapture occurs after
the antichrist is revealed. We are raptured on a specific
day, the day of the Lord, the antichrist is destroyed
on that very day.

I have simplified Paul's second chapter in 2 Thessalonians
down to four simple lines. These four lines do strongly
indicate that the AC reigns before Jesus returns. On the
day Jesus returns to rapture us, the AC is cooked.

2 Thessalonians 2

...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and
our gathering together to Him

...for that Day will not come unless

...the man of sin is revealed

...then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord
will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy
with the brightness of His coming.

jari · Jan 8, 2013

Eric E Stahl said:
Jari,

Did you notice the shadow at noon day when Israel is fleeing from the antichrist army? It is a permanent solar eclipse. During a solar eclipse you can't see the sun because it is behind the moon and you can't see the stars because of a twilight condition. This is the cause of the darkness from Mathew 24:29-31. It stats in Habakkuk 3:11-13 before Armageddon. Joel talks about it and Amos talks about it and Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-22 even describes it in the kingdom age.

yes but how do we know "shadow at noon day" means solar eclipse? is there a proof that this is what it means?

canada · Jan 8, 2013

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Thank you Revbrad for the reminder to be ready … and for the respite.

It wearies me to listen to all the “predictions”.
Here is how it is all going to unfold “in the future” … step by step … detail by detail. Hal Lindsey did that, and now some consider him to be a false prophet.

And don’t worry about jumping into the thread and de-railing it.
The subject of discussion was Futurism and Preterism and it has been thoroughly hijacked by one who likes to promote his book.

I too have written a book, but I do not flog it on anothers’ thread.
And yes Jari you are right … he does “flood the thread”.

David and Jari … sorry for my rant, but I find this behaviour anything but courteous.

David777 · Jan 8, 2013

I do agree with you canada.

Eric has a vested interest and also truly
believes in his version of eschatology.

Feel free to post any topic you wish canada.

My knowledge of partial preterism is incomplete,
and look forward to your input.

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