Gehenna Hell - The punishment of the wicked knows no end!

[Victor VanHeerden]

The Biblical Hell we should be vitally concerned about is "Gehenna" a place of punishment, torment and destruction also referred to as the Lake of Fire and the Second Death. This awful place was not intended for people originally but for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

God’s purpose and desire for humanity has always been good. The first heaven and earth were created good.

Genesis 1:31 - And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

God will not allow Satan to spoil the new heaven and the new earth which are to come. Therefore God will shut him off in the lake of fire. And here is the crux those who are not allowed into heaven due to their unbelief, which blots their name out of the book of life, will follow Satan to his doom.

John 16:8,11, And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: · Of sin, because they believe not on me

for they have Satan, not God, as their father.

John 8:44.You belong to your father, the devil.....

The Sin of Unbelief will cause you to be classed as one with the devil. Of his family and offspring. Thus the same punishment due for the devil is the unbelievers destiny as well. God sees clearly here.

You are either a Child of God or a child of the devil.

Now if we look at what God thinks of the devil (for another post)- you will get a fright because that is what he thinks of an unbeliever and child of the devil.

Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to everlasting punishment in the fiery lake of burning sulfur: This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matt 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Notice God says Eternal Punishment - not eternal separation or oblivion.

Mark 9:43–48 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off.

Rev 20; 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

Jesus’ words in Luke 16 show us that the wicked remain conscious and are aware of their state and of what they have missed.

Jesus called the eternal fire "Gehenna". When i was in Jerusalem the guide showed us a place actually called Gehenna where all the rubbish from the city was burnt day and night. So that is what he was referencing - an everlasting fire. A fire that can not even be put out. There can be no possible end to the fire or the punishment. The punishment is as eternal as the fire.

If the fire brought an annihilation of the wicked, there would be no reason for the fire being eternal.

Therefore hell is not a nice place but a place of eternal punishment, via horrendous sufferings, torment and torture.

Of course our modern day sensibilities shun at the thought of this. But that is Biblical hell.

Hebrews. 6: 1 Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Gods Judgement is Eternal :

Life in Heaven - a place of bliss with Lord Jesus and the saints. According to the believers judgement. (another post)
or
in Gehenna Hell - a place of eternal punishment, torment and destruction with the devil, demons and unbelievers. The same punishment due for the devil is the unbelievers destiny as well.

 

[Butch5]

The Biblical Hell we should be vitally concerned about is "Gehenna" a place of punishment, torment and destruction also referred to as the Lake of Fire and the Second Death. This awful place was not intended for people originally but for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

God’s purpose and desire for humanity has always been good. The first heaven and earth were created good.

Genesis 1:31 - And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

God will not allow Satan to spoil the new heaven and the new earth which are to come. Therefore God will shut him off in the lake of fire. And here is the crux those who are not allowed into heaven due to their unbelief, which blots their name out of the book of life, will follow Satan to his doom.

John 16:8,11, And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: · Of sin, because they believe not on me

for they have Satan, not God, as their father.

John 8:44.You belong to your father, the devil.....

The Sin of Unbelief will cause you to be classed as one with the devil. Of his family and offspring. Thus the same punishment due for the devil is the unbelievers destiny as well. God sees clearly here.

You are either a Child of God or a child of the devil.

Now if we look at what God thinks of the devil (for another post)- you will get a fright because that is what he thinks of an unbeliever and child of the devil.

Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to everlasting punishment in the fiery lake of burning sulfur: This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matt 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Notice God says Eternal Punishment - not eternal separation or oblivion.

Mark 9:43–48 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off.

Rev 20; 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

Jesus’ words in Luke 16 show us that the wicked remain conscious and are aware of their state and of what they have missed.

Jesus called the eternal fire "Gehenna". When i was in Jerusalem the guide showed us a place actually called Gehenna where all the rubbish from the city was burnt day and night. So that is what he was referencing - an everlasting fire. A fire that can not even be put out. There can be no possible end to the fire or the punishment. The punishment is as eternal as the fire.

If the fire brought an annihilation of the wicked, there would be no reason for the fire being eternal.

Therefore hell is not a nice place but a place of eternal punishment, via horrendous sufferings, torment and torture.

Of course our modern day sensibilities shun at the thought of this. But that is Biblical hell.

Hebrews. 6: 1 Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, and laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

Gods Judgement is Eternal :

Life in Heaven - a place of bliss with Lord Jesus and the saints. According to the believers judgement. (another post)
or
in Gehenna Hell - a place of eternal punishment, torment and destruction with the devil, demons and unbelievers. The same punishment due for the devil is the unbelievers destiny as well.

The problem here, and the reason so many fall for this doctrine is the erroneous translation of aion. The Greek word aion is sometimes translated forever. This is demonstrably wrong. The word does not and cannot mean eternal. In addition to that, Paul states unequivocally that the Father alone has immortality. If man does not have immortality, how can he suffer eternally? The only way that would be possible is if God gave him eternal life. However, we are told in Scripture that eternal life is reserved for the righteous, not the wicked. So, if God doesn't give the wicked eternal life and they don't already have it, there is no way they can suffer eternally. On a third point the Lake of Fire doesn't burn for eternity. Jeremiah prophesied of a time when that area would once again be made holy to the Lord. There are other evidences from Scripture that show that the doctrine of eternal torment is not what the Bible teaches, we could discuss those also if you'd like.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

The fire is not a literal fire that God is going to roast sinners with, the fire symbolizes God’s anger and wrath. Here is a thread I did on the topic……

I was writing a study on Mystery Babylon when the Lord opened up something to me concerning the everlasting fire that is never quenched; and also the smoke of burning that rises up forever and ever. I never really put much thought into this subject before, but I do not believe this everlasting fire is a natural fire as one might suppose; but rather the fire "symbolizes" the fire of God’s anger.

So let’s compare spiritual things with spiritual by looking at several verses of scripture.

When something burns, naturally it produces smoke right? But here we also see the "smoke of torment" rising up forever and forever.

Revelation 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see "the smoke" of her burning,”

Revelation 18:18 “And cried when they saw "the smoke" of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!”

Revelation 19:3 “And again they said, Alleluia And "her smoke" rose up for ever and ever.”

Revelation 14:11 “And "the smoke" of their "torment" ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

We know by scripture God’s "anger" is as a consuming fire…..

Deuteronomy 4:24 “For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Psalm 74:1 “O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine "anger smoke "against the sheep of thy pasture?”

Job 15:34 “For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and "fire shall consume" the tabernacles of bribery.”

Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with "the devouring fire"? who among us shall dwell with "everlasting burnings?”

Notice the wording here compared to the wording in Revelation above concerning the smoke of their torment that ascends up forever and forever.

Isaiah 34:1-10 “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.2 For "the indignation" of the Lord is upon all nations, and "his fury" upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.8 For it is the day of "the Lord's vengeance", and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into "pitch", and the dust thereof into "brimstone", and the land thereof shall become "burning pitch".10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; "the smoke thereof shall go up for ever": from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”
Sounds like hell on earth don’t it? Now listen to "the fire that is never quenched"…

Mark 9:43 “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 “And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”

Now notice how God's anger and wrath is "like" a fire

Deuteronomy 32:22 “For a "fire" is kindled in mine "anger", and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and "set on fire" the foundations of the mountains.

Psalm 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a "fiery oven" in the time of thine "anger": the Lord shall swallow them up in "his wrath", and "the fire" shall devour them.

Isaiah 30:27 Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, "burning with his anger", and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of "indignation", and his tongue as a "devouring fire":

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with "fire", and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render "his anger with fury", and his rebuke with "flames of fire".

Jeremiah 15:14 “And I will make thee to pass with thine enemies into a land which thou knowest not: for a "fire" is kindled in "mine anger," which shall "burn" upon you.”

Jeremiah 17:4 “And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled "a fire in mine anger", which shall "burn forever.” (= everlasting fire)



Zephaniah 3:8 “Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all "my fierce anger": for all the earth shall be devoured with "the fire of my jealousy.”

Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the "devouring fire"? who among us shall dwell with "everlasting burnings?” (everlasting fire)

Matthew 18:8 “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into "everlasting fire.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into "everlasting fire," prepared for the devil and his angels:”

The fire that is not quenched seems to be "the anger and wrath of the Lord" that is not quenched

2 Chronicles 34:25 “Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me "to anger" with all the works of their hands; therefore "my wrath" shall be poured out upon this place, "and shall not be quenched".

Jeremiah 7:20 “Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, "mine anger and my fury "shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and "it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.”

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall "their fire be quenched"; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest "my fury come forth like fire", and "burn" that none can "quench it," because of the evil of your doings.

Jeremiah 21:12 “O house of David, thus saith the Lord; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest "my fury" go out "like fire", and "burn that none can quench it", because of the evil of your doings.”

Ezekiel 20:47 “And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle "a fire" in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the "flaming flame shall not be quenched", and all faces from the south to the north shall be "burned" therein.

Ezekiel 20:48 “And all flesh shall see that "I the Lord have kindled it": "it shall not be quenched.”

Mark 9:45 “And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”

Jesus said in Luke 12:49 "I am come "to send fire" on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Revelation 14:10-11 “The same shall drink of the wine of "the wrath" of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of "his indignation"; and he shall be tormented "with fire and brimstone" in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever": and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

So by all these proof scriptures I do believe "the fire" can be seen as "symbolic" as well. Peace and God bless

 

[Butch5]

The fire is not a literal fire that God is going to roast sinners with, the fire symbolizes God’s anger and wrath. Here is a thread I did on the topic……

I was writing a study on Mystery Babylon when the Lord opened up something to me concerning the everlasting fire that is never quenched; and also the smoke of burning that rises up forever and ever. I never really put much thought into this subject before, but I do not believe this everlasting fire is a natural fire as one might suppose; but rather the fire "symbolizes" the fire of God’s anger.

So let’s compare spiritual things with spiritual by looking at several verses of scripture.

When something burns, naturally it produces smoke right? But here we also see the "smoke of torment" rising up forever and forever.

Revelation 18:9 “And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see "the smoke" of her burning,”

Revelation 18:18 “And cried when they saw "the smoke" of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!”

Revelation 19:3 “And again they said, Alleluia And "her smoke" rose up for ever and ever.”

Revelation 14:11 “And "the smoke" of their "torment" ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

We know by scripture God’s "anger" is as a consuming fire…..

Deuteronomy 4:24 “For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Psalm 74:1 “O God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine "anger smoke "against the sheep of thy pasture?”

Job 15:34 “For the congregation of hypocrites shall be desolate, and "fire shall consume" the tabernacles of bribery.”

Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with "the devouring fire"? who among us shall dwell with "everlasting burnings?”

Notice the wording here compared to the wording in Revelation above concerning the smoke of their torment that ascends up forever and forever.

Isaiah 34:1-10 “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.2 For "the indignation" of the Lord is upon all nations, and "his fury" upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.8 For it is the day of "the Lord's vengeance", and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into "pitch", and the dust thereof into "brimstone", and the land thereof shall become "burning pitch".10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; "the smoke thereof shall go up for ever": from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.”
Sounds like hell on earth don’t it? Now listen to "the fire that is never quenched"…

Mark 9:43 “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 “And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”

Now notice how God's anger and wrath is "like" a fire

Deuteronomy 32:22 “For a "fire" is kindled in mine "anger", and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and "set on fire" the foundations of the mountains.

Psalm 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a "fiery oven" in the time of thine "anger": the Lord shall swallow them up in "his wrath", and "the fire" shall devour them.

Isaiah 30:27 Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, "burning with his anger", and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of "indignation", and his tongue as a "devouring fire":

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with "fire", and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render "his anger with fury", and his rebuke with "flames of fire".

Jeremiah 15:14 “And I will make thee to pass with thine enemies into a land which thou knowest not: for a "fire" is kindled in "mine anger," which shall "burn" upon you.”

Jeremiah 17:4 “And thou, even thyself, shalt discontinue from thine heritage that I gave thee; and I will cause thee to serve thine enemies in the land which thou knowest not: for ye have kindled "a fire in mine anger", which shall "burn forever.” (= everlasting fire)



Zephaniah 3:8 “Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all "my fierce anger": for all the earth shall be devoured with "the fire of my jealousy.”

Isaiah 33:14 “The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the "devouring fire"? who among us shall dwell with "everlasting burnings?” (everlasting fire)

Matthew 18:8 “Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into "everlasting fire.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into "everlasting fire," prepared for the devil and his angels:”

The fire that is not quenched seems to be "the anger and wrath of the Lord" that is not quenched

2 Chronicles 34:25 “Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me "to anger" with all the works of their hands; therefore "my wrath" shall be poured out upon this place, "and shall not be quenched".

Jeremiah 7:20 “Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, "mine anger and my fury "shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and "it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.”

Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall "their fire be quenched"; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest "my fury come forth like fire", and "burn" that none can "quench it," because of the evil of your doings.

Jeremiah 21:12 “O house of David, thus saith the Lord; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest "my fury" go out "like fire", and "burn that none can quench it", because of the evil of your doings.”

Ezekiel 20:47 “And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle "a fire" in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the "flaming flame shall not be quenched", and all faces from the south to the north shall be "burned" therein.

Ezekiel 20:48 “And all flesh shall see that "I the Lord have kindled it": "it shall not be quenched.”

Mark 9:45 “And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:”

Jesus said in Luke 12:49 "I am come "to send fire" on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Revelation 14:10-11 “The same shall drink of the wine of "the wrath" of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of "his indignation"; and he shall be tormented "with fire and brimstone" in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever": and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

So by all these proof scriptures I do believe "the fire" can be seen as "symbolic" as well. Peace and God bless

I agree that fire is used of God's anger. That's all through the Scriptures. However, it can be seen that the aionios fire is literal.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. 14

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 19:13–14.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jud 6–7.

23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. 26

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 19:23–26.

And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 19:29.

Jude says that this is an "example" of aionios fire. It's not a symbol of it, it's an example. Notice too what Abraham saw.

27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD: 28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 19:27–29.

We have that same language, burning as a furnace, smoke, etc. Yet, this is literal. Jude says this "is" aionios fire. What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, "is" aionios fire. Those two cities are not still burning today. the fire was not quenched, put out. However, it did burn our of it's own accord. To quench means to put out. It doesn't mean the fire will never go out. when God kindles a fire no one is going to put it out. However, that doesn't mean it won't go out of it's accord.

However, as I pointed out, aion cannot mean forever. Man doesn't live forever , so the torment cannot be eternal.

 

[KingJ]

The problem here, and the reason so many fall for this doctrine is the erroneous translation of aion. The Greek word aion is sometimes translated forever. This is demonstrably wrong. The word does not and cannot mean eternal. In addition to that, Paul states unequivocally that the Father alone has immortality. If man does not have immortality, how can he suffer eternally? The only way that would be possible is if God gave him eternal life. However, we are told in Scripture that eternal life is reserved for the righteous, not the wicked. So, if God doesn't give the wicked eternal life and they don't already have it, there is no way they can suffer eternally. On a third point the Lake of Fire doesn't burn for eternity. Jeremiah prophesied of a time when that area would once again be made holy to the Lord. There are other evidences from Scripture that show that the doctrine of eternal torment is not what the Bible teaches, we could discuss those also if you'd like.

Butch, you are wrong. It is impossible that every translation says eternal, yet you and a few others don't. I am sure translators considered that as the theory of annihilationism has been around for a while

That thread you responded to a while back explained that if your interpretation were correct, God too, would not be eternal.

 

[KingJ]

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

It was only 'prepared' for them as they first sinned.

Genesis 1:31 - And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

Important to understand that God's idea of 'good' is the 'same' as ours Gen 3:22.

This awful place was not intended for people originally but for the devil and his angels.#

Many try make something of this, but its a non-issue. If we sinned first, God would say to angels 'a place prepared for humans'.

Many suggest God is 'extra' wicked as He places humans in a place of suffering prepared for extra 'strong' angels. Utter nonsense. We are creations just beneath angels Heb 2:7. They are not 'extra' resilient to suffering.

You have been corrected previously on this, yet you still seem to think it is a relevant matter.

Genesis 1:31 - And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...

God will not allow Satan to spoil the new heaven and the new earth which are to come. Therefore God will shut him off in the lake of fire. And here is the crux those who are not allowed into heaven due to their unbelief, which blots their name out of the book of life, will follow Satan to his doom.

We cannot merely say 'due to their unbelief'. That sounds like you are saying due to them being in the wrong church, believing in the wrong God.

Unbelief is as a result of a love of sin. Any who hate what is evil and repent of their sin are given belief What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Whosoever is not found written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to everlasting punishment in the fiery lake of burning sulfur: This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matt 25:46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Notice God says Eternal Punishment - not eternal separation or oblivion.

No eternal separation is mentioned as you did not quote the scriptures that speak to that as the suffering Luke 13:28.

Eternal separation is eternal punishment.

Jesus called the eternal fire "Gehenna". When i was in Jerusalem the guide showed us a place actually called Gehenna where all the rubbish from the city was burnt day and night. So that is what he was referencing - an everlasting fire. A fire that can not even be put out. There can be no possible end to the fire or the punishment. The punishment is as eternal as the fire.

If the fire brought an annihilation of the wicked, there would be no reason for the fire being eternal.

Therefore hell is not a nice place but a place of eternal punishment, via horrendous sufferings, torment and torture.

Your visit of Jerusalem does not define hell. Sorry. Scripture does. Nowhere is there a scripture that says ''horrendous sufferings and torture''. Those are your insertions.

You are 'adding' to scripture what is not there. There is a warning at the end of the bible for all who do that.

Don't think I am gunning for you, many believe the same as you and are equally guilty of misreprentation of God.

Of course our modern day sensibilities shun at the thought of this. But that is Biblical hell.

What is? Your visit of Jerusalem is biblical hell?

You define the A-Z of a hell housing billions of humans and likely trillions of angels for all eternity according to what your guide in Jerusalem had to say about Gehenna?

___________________________


You have posted no scripture that speaks to hell being a place of torture. Torment and separation can be a type of torture. But are not nearly on par with something like Dante's inferno. Sadly, that is what so many think of hell and of God.

The devil cannot easily incriminate God on the current and past. But on the vastly unknown future, yes. Your post and others like it are evidence of this. Insinuating God is wicked and would sit atop the list of the worst beings to ever live.

No, sadly, all who think this do not know God. As explained in 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

You have created a picture of hell that is false. It is funny to see how people automatically assume the 'absolute' worse when they read the word ''fire''.

I explain what to expect in hell here What to expect in hell, please feel free to quote any passage you disagree with.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

If man does not have immortality, how can he suffer eternally? The only way that would be possible is if God gave him eternal life. However, we are told in Scripture that eternal life is reserved for the righteous, not the wicked. So, if God doesn't give the wicked eternal life and they don't already have it, there is no way they can suffer eternally. On a third point the Lake of Fire doesn't burn for eternity. Jeremiah prophesied of a time when that area would once again be made holy to the Lord. There are other evidences from Scripture that show that the doctrine of eternal torment is not what the Bible teaches, we could discuss those also if you'd like.

I believe man has both a body and a soul as Jesus said. And I believe the soul is eternal, as God also spoke of His own soul, when He said “my soul” in scripture.

I believe the first death is to the physical body, and the second death is to the soul. Just as our “souls” are saved and redeemed, not our corruptable physical bodies.

There are several references in scripture of souls speaking after their bodies have died. Like Abel, like Samuel, like the story of the rich man Lazarus, and also here in

Revelation 6:9-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

So you have people who were physically killed, but their souls were still alive and speaking.

Now I would ask how can a soul be tormented forever if it is not conscious of being tormented?

 

[Butch5]

Butch, you are wrong. It is impossible that every translation says eternal, yet you and a few others don't. I am sure translators considered that as the theory of annihilationism has been around for a while

That thread you responded to a while back explained that if your interpretation were correct, God too, would not be eternal.

I'm not wrong. If you study interpretation and church history, you can easily see how this happens. Modern Christianity is an echo chamber. People just read each other's works and parrot the same thing. Well, when everyone believes the same thing, what would we expect all of the translations and commentaries to say? I mean, you often can't even get on a translation board if you don't believe the Trinity. So, If all of the translators believe in the Trintiy do you suppose they would put out a translation opposing the Trinity? Of course not. So, all of their translations use the pronoun "he" when translating passages about the holy Spirit. However, in the Greek text the pronoun is "it" not 'he". They do this because they all think the Holy Spirit is a third person. However, as I said, in the Greek text the pronoun is "it" not "he". This is translator bias. It affects every single translation. It's unavoidable. Everyone who translates has an existing belief system which they filter their translation through. It's unavoidable. Look at how many believe Christians go to Heaven when they die, and yet there is not even "one" single passage to suggest such a thing. In fact we have the exact opposite stated by none other than Jessus Himself.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 13:33.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 5:5.

And, as I've pointed out, Paul, in 1 Cor. 15 speaking of dead Christians, said if there is no resurrection they had "already" perished. How could Paul say such a thing if they were alive in Heaven? He couldn't. And yet here we have millions, if not billions of Christians believing they go to Heaven when they die. Now, there are a lot more Christians than theologians. So, if millions or billions can be wrong about what the Bible says, why would we think that fewer theologians couldn't be wrong?

My friend, I can't emphasize enough how much Christians should study church history and textual criticism. One doesn't need to spend an inordinate amount of time looking at textual criticism to see that translators face all kinds of difficulties and issues when translating. It's not a matter of translating a word for a word. Often there are several different readings of a passage, called variants. Which one is correct? No one knows. the translators have to look at all of the passages and make an educated guess. Often a passage can be translated in more than one way. Often there are passages that are ambiguous, they could mean this, or they could mean that. Again, it's up to the translator's discretion how he translates it. When he does this he is entering his bias into the translation. You're getting what he "thinks" the writer is saying. Now consider that all of the writers believe the same thing and is it any wonder all of the translations end up looking the same?

Here is a brief overview of textual criticism. Daniel Wallace is one of the foremost Greek scholars today. Notice, he says, 'you're not even getting the tip of the iceberg. If the tip of the iceberg had a tip that's what you're getting'. That's how deep and complicated the issue of translation is. There are many variables to deal with.

Here's an interview with a translator.

 

[Waggles]

Worth noting is this statement spoken by Jesus himself -

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but cannot kill the soul: but rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in geenna.

 

[Butch5]

I believe man has both a body and a soul as Jesus said. And I believe the soul is eternal, as God also spoke of His own soul, when He said “my soul” in scripture.

I believe the first death is to the physical body, and the second death is to the soul. Just as our “souls” are saved and redeemed, not our corruptable physical bodies.

There are several references in scripture of souls speaking after their bodies have died. Like Abel, like Samuel, like the story of the rich man Lazarus, and also here in

Revelation 6:9-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

So you have people who were physically killed, but their souls were still alive and speaking.

Now I would ask how can a soul be tormented forever if it is not conscious of being tormented?

If the soul is eternal, how can it experience a second death. Doesn't death require that one die? Also, for something to be the second of a kind, it needs to be like the first one. If i say I'm going to buy a second car, I don't buy a motorcycle. That's not a car. For something to be a second death it has to be like the first one. Since the first one is death, the second one must be also.

Salvation is of the body. As I've pointed out the soul can't be saved without the body. The word anastasis that is translated Resurrection literally means, to stand again. The body will stand again.

None of the passages you mention except Revelation use the word soul. So they don't support this claim. The passage of the souls under the altar, is in a book full of symbolism. Can you explain to me how that proves your point? Since much of the book is figurative language why would I understand this to be literal when Genesis 2:7 tells me that man cannot live apart from the body. David, a prophet, tells us that the dead know nothing. How can they be communicating? Solomon tells us that the thoughts of the dead perish the very day they die. How can they be communicating? It seems more likely to me that this passage is speaking figuratively or of living people. It's also a vision of the future. So, we don't even know if those events have occurred. We know most everything else in the book has not yet occured. Why would we believe this one passage has already occurred when the rest hasn't?


Paul said the Father alone has immortality. If the Father alone has it, how can man?

If we look at the creation of man we find that a soul consists of two components, the body and the breath or spirit of God.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:7.

We see here that God created the man, the body, but it was not alive. Then after God breathed "His" breath into the man the man was transformed into a living soul. Thus, a soul contains two components. Since the body dies the soul cannot be eternal. God's breath goes back to Him and the body returns to the dust. There's nothing left to live on.

Peter tells us that Jesus gave His body for sin.

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but gcommitted himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Pe 2:21–25.

Isaiah tells us that Christ gave his soul for sin.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
And he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
Because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
And he was numbered with the transgressors;
And he bare the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 53:12.

The soul denotes the whole person. The person cannot exist without a body.

 

[Waggles]

very good points of Bible study @Butch5
worth noting is what Jesus said -
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but cannot kill the soul: but rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in geenna.
and
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
the soul = the living person (body and spirit)
so is this spiritual death annihilation in the lake of fire or eternal separation from God and his joy ??

BUT on the other hand we have scriptures such as -
Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into geenna;
48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Isaiah 66:24)

 

[Waggles]

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

it shall die. The question here is not whether "soul" designates that immortal part of man’s being which consciously outlasts the physical body (+*Eze 18:20 note; +Ecc 3:19 note; +*Ecc 12:7), is simply another designation for "person,"
or whether "soul" has reference merely to the physical body.
But these issues, while not settled here, are clearly settled elsewhere, and consulting the references will lead to their solution.
The immediate question before the prophet is not whether this death is spiritual or physical, whether it is simply a statement that disobedience to the Mosaic law requires capital punishment, but rather whether the children are punished for the sins of their fathers, the mistaken point of the proverb he is disputing.
He gives a new proverb to replace the old one: the soul that sinneth, it itself will die. That is, individuals will receive the punishment due for their own sin.
Of course it may be legitimately argued that since accounts are not equitably balanced in this life, this necessitates reward and punishment in a future life, in order for God’s ways to be "equal" (Eze 18:25).
Therefore the "death" spoken of here is not annihilation, unconsciousness, or extinction, but spiritual death.
All persons presently experience physical death: if death were merely a painless extinction, all sinners would suffer precisely the same lack of punishment, and God’s ways would not be equal.
Rather, Scripture teaches future punishment. Punishment which varies in severity according to the degree of responsibility of the individual (See on +*Luke 12:48), punishment which is conscious (+Luke 16:24; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10)
and eternal (+Matt 25:46). Eze 18:18, Eze 3:18; Eze 33:8; Eze 33:13, +**Gen 2:17 note. Gen 5:5; Gen 12:13, Exo 32:33, Lev 5:1, Num 5:31; Num 27:3, +**Deut 24:16, 2Ki 1:4, Job 19:4, *Jer 31:30, +**Matt 10:28 note. *Matt 22:32, *Mark 12:26; *Mark 12:27, Luke 9:60; Luke 15:24, Rom 6:23; Rom 5:12, *1Cor 15:56 note. *Gal 6:5; *Gal 6:7, +*Eph 2:1, *1Tim 5:6, T981x: Num 23:10, +Jos 11:11 (T982x). Psa 78:50, Isa 53:12, *Matt 10:28, Mark 14:34, Luke 6:9, Acts 3:23, Rom 6:23; and Rom 14:12.
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

If the soul is eternal, how can it experience a second death. Doesn't death require that one die? Also, for something to be the second of a kind, it needs to be like the first one. If i say I'm going to buy a second car, I don't buy a motorcycle. That's not a car. For something to be a second death it has to be like the first one. Since the first one is death, the second one must be also.

Salvation is of the body. As I've pointed out the soul can't be saved without the body. The word anastasis that is translated Resurrection literally means, to stand again. The body will stand again.

None of the passages you mention except Revelation use the word soul. So they don't support this claim. The passage of the souls under the altar, is in a book full of symbolism. Can you explain to me how that proves your point? Since much of the book is figurative language why would I understand this to be literal when Genesis 2:7 tells me that man cannot live apart from the body. David, a prophet, tells us that the dead know nothing. How can they be communicating? Solomon tells us that the thoughts of the dead perish the very day they die. How can they be communicating? It seems more likely to me that this passage is speaking figuratively or of living people. It's also a vision of the future. So, we don't even know if those events have occurred. We know most everything else in the book has not yet occured. Why would we believe this one passage has already occurred when the rest hasn't?


Paul said the Father alone has immortality. If the Father alone has it, how can man?

If we look at the creation of man we find that a soul consists of two components, the body and the breath or spirit of God.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:7.

We see here that God created the man, the body, but it was not alive. Then after God breathed "His" breath into the man the man was transformed into a living soul. Thus, a soul contains two components. Since the body dies the soul cannot be eternal. God's breath goes back to Him and the body returns to the dust. There's nothing left to live on.

Peter tells us that Jesus gave His body for sin.

21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but gcommitted himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Pe 2:21–25.

Isaiah tells us that Christ gave his soul for sin.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great,
And he shall divide the spoil with the strong;
Because he hath poured out his soul unto death:
And he was numbered with the transgressors;
And he bare the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 53:12.

The soul denotes the whole person. The person cannot exist without a body.

The soul is not the physical body. The words of God speak of BOTH a body and a soul.

Isaiah 10:18
And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So to say the soul is the same as the physical body is in error.

The first death is to the body…
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Now the scriptures say the dead know nothing at all. But the scriptures also speak of the living knowing nothing.

Job 8:9
(For we are but of yesterday, and knownothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
Proverbs 9:13
A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.

1 Corinthians 4:4
For I know nothing by myself;yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1 Corinthians 8:2
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1 Timothy 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

So if both the dead and the living are said to know nothing, does it mean they are not conscious of any thing?

And what does it mean to be dead? Do we define being dead and death according to man’s definition, or according to God’s definition?

After all according to God’s Word one can be dead while they are yet alive in the body. Jesus said let the dead bury their dead. And it is written that we were once dead in our trespasses. Just as it is written to be carnally minded is death. So death by God’s definition is not limited to the physical body.

So we need to see how God defines death and being dead, and how God defines the phrase “knowing nothing”.

In Isaiah we see the evil dead in hell being conscious and able to see and speak in

Isaiah 14:4-18​

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King James Version​

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​

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.”

So how can those souls in hell see and speak if they know nothing at all?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Hell/Gehenna has only one definition you and I need to know: Eternal separation from our Creator. Any discussion beyond that is a waste of time, because nobody has ever gone to that place and returned.

 

[Butch5]

very good points of Bible study @Butch5
worth noting is what Jesus said -
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but cannot kill the soul: but rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in geenna.

Thanks! When we studied how the word soul, Psuche and Nephesh, were used throughout the Bible the meaning became much clearer. One of the problems we have, and why there is such confusion on this, is the English translators use different words for Psuche and Nephesh. When it's used one way they translate it soul, but when it's used in another way, they translate it something else. So, the English reader only gets to see some of the ways they are used in Scripture. They don't get the full picture. The words are used two ways in Scripture. They are used in a concrete and abstract sense. In a concrete sense they mean a living being. In an abstract sense they are usually translated life. For instance,

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 1:20.

"Hath life" is the word nephesh, soul. It could be translated, 'the moving creature that hath soul'. Here they translated it life.

46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Le 11:46–Is 13:21.

Here they translate Nephesh as creature. In the previous verse they used an abstract sense. In this verse they used it in a concrete sense. In Genesis 2:7 we see nephesh used in a concrete sense; the man became a living soul. Nephesh and psuche are used this way throughout the Bible. In light of this let's consider the passage in Mathew.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them that kill the body, but cannot kill the soul: but rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in geenna.

Don't fear the one who can kill the body but not the life. What does Jesus mean here? How would we understand this? The Scriptures tell us that God holds one's soul, Life, in His hand. So, man can kill a person, but have they ended that person's existence? No, because God holds that person's life in His hand and He will resurrect that person in the end. So, while man has temporarily killed the body, and the person is dead. Their life is not over, it's not ended. So, man can kill the body but not the life, in the ultimate sense. On the other hand Jesus says to fear the one who can destroy both in Gehenna. In other words, God can end the life. When He ends it it's gone. But notice how Jesus changes from kill to destroy. He doesn't say fear Him who can kill both body and soul, life. He says fear Him who can destroy booth body and soul, life. There's a difference between being kiiled and being destroyed. When something is destroyed it ceases to exist.

and
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
the soul = the living person (body and spirit)
so is this spiritual death annihilation in the lake of fire or eternal separation from God and his joy ??

I don't hold to the idea of spiritual death. As you point out, the soul = the living person (body and spirit). I understand the spirit here to be God's breath. It's not man. It's something of God Himself that He put into man that gives man life. Job tells us that if God retrieved His spirit all flesh would die.

If he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together,
And man wshall turn again unto dust.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Job 34:14–15.

The word spirit is ruach in the Hebrew and the word breath is Neshamah. This is the same word that is used in Genesis 2:7. God put His neshamah in the man and the man became a living soul. If He takes His neshamah back man dies and returns to dust. These two words, neshamah and ruach are used interchangeably. They both mean wind and by extension breath. They are sometimes figuratively translated spirit. In Ecc 12 we find that when man dies, his breath (ruach) returns to God who gave it. This is the breath of life we see in Gen 2:7. This breath or spirit is the only one I see in man. I don't see any spirit that "is" man. God's breath or spirit doesn't die because God doesn't die. So, I don't see any spiritual death in Scripture. So, when Ezekiel says, 'the soul that sins shall die' I see what happened to Adam.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:17–19.

He told Adam that because he did what he was told not to do, which is sin, he would die. God described that death telling Adam that he was taken from the ground, and he would return to it. Now, if man was something other than the physical flesh, we would expect God to mention that here. Something akin to, ok, this is what's going to happened to you and your body. he makes no distinction. Instead, He calls Adam "you". The word "you" denotes person. He's saying you Adam, the person, are dust. Compare that with Paul's statement about the body, soul, and spirit. In that passage Paul uses the word "your". Your indicates possession or ownership but not person. So, Paul is speaking of the body, soul, and spirit that belong to the whole person. Body, soul, and spirit is another way to say the whole person. so, to answer the question, when Ezekiel says the soul that sins shall die, it would be annihilation. One of the effects of annihilation would be eternal separation from God. If one ceases to exist eternally, they are eternally separated from God.

BUT on the other hand we have scriptures such as -
Isaiah 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into geenna;
48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Isaiah 66:24)

Mark 9 and Isaiah 66 refer to the same place, the Valley of the Son of Hinnom south of Jerusalem aka Gehenna. Isaiah talks about this place being a place of burning of those who are killed at the battle of Armageddon. However, Jesus later informs us that the wicked will also be cast here. But look at what the passage in Isaiah says. It is corpses, dead bodies, that are burning there. It is not living souls or spirits. the fire is not quenched indicates that no one can put it out. However, that doesn't preclude the fire going out of its own accord or of God extinguishing it. But certainly, no man will. Jeremiah prophesied of a time when this valley would once again be made holy to the Lord

I think passage from Luke is clearly a parable. The Rich Man tormented in the flame is in Hades, not Gehenna. Hades is typically translated the grave. This fits since we see all of the participants in the story have bodies. Bodies are in the grave. Many believe this is a place where the supposed ghosts of the dead go. That begs the question though, why do they have bodies? Ghosts don't have bodies, they are spirits (English definition). There are only two places in all of Scripture where we find burning in Hades. One is this passage in Luke and the other is in the Song of Moses. The Song of Moses speaks of how in later times Israel would turn away from God. Here is the passage.

Then he forsook God which made him,
And lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods,
With abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God;
To gods whom they knew not,
To new gods that came newly up,
Whom your fathers feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful,
And hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them,
Because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them,
I will see what their end shall be:
For they are a very froward generation,
Children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
And shall burn unto the lowest hell,
And ||shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Dt 32:15–22.

We know this applies to Jesus' day because Paul quotes verses 20 and 21 and applies it to the Jews of his day. Also, verse 20, God hid His face from them in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed. But notice verse 22, a fire is kindled in mine anger, and it will burn to the lowest hades. The fire here is God's anger. I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was referring to this passage as He was addressing the Scribes and Pharisees who wore purple and fine linen, just as the Rich Man did. There's really a lot in this parable and Jesus draws from several Old Testament passages. This one in Deut. 32, also from Psalm 50, Isaiah 28-29, and Malachi. I think what really tells us the story of this parable is the details. If we look at the details of the Rich Man, we find that they fit the leadership of Israel. The details of Lazarus fit Jesus.

Having said all of that, I don't believe these passages indicate that souls live on after death.

 

[Butch5]

The soul is not the physical body. The words of God speak of BOTH a body and a soul.

yes, it does. That doesn't mean they are two separate things. I gave you the words of Gen 2:7. God formed man from the dust of the earth. That is the body. That body became a living soul. Thus, the soul and the body intrinsically connected. Please see post #15 and my reply to @Waggles for an explanation.

Isaiah 10:18
And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So to say the soul is the same as the physical body is in error.

Not at all. Read Gen. 2;7

The first death is to the body…
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Now the scriptures say the dead know nothing at all. But the scriptures also speak of the living knowing nothing.

Job 8:9
(For we are but of yesterday, and knownothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
Proverbs 9:13
A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.

1 Corinthians 4:4
For I know nothing by myself;yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1 Corinthians 8:2
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1 Timothy 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

So if both the dead and the living are said to know nothing, does it mean they are not conscious of any thing?

It's all about context and language. The bible often uses metaphor, allegories, parables, and other figures of speech. Is the speaker in Job saying they literally know nothing? If so, how was he speaking? If he meant it literally he wouldn't be able to speak. I think it's obvious that it's hyperbole, figurative language. All of these passages need to be understood in context. In contrast, what do the dead know? If one requires a brain to think and function and the brain is dead and has decayed, how can the dead literally know anything?

And what does it mean to be dead? Do we define being dead and death according to man’s definition, or according to God’s definition?

After all according to God’s Word one can be dead while they are yet alive in the body. Jesus said let the dead bury their dead. And it is written that we were once dead in our trespasses. Just as it is written to be carnally minded is death. So death by God’s definition is not limited to the physical body.

So we need to see how God defines death and being dead, and how God defines the phrase “knowing nothing”.

In Isaiah we see the evil dead in hell being conscious and able to see and speak in

Isaiah 14:4-18​

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King James Version​

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4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The Lord hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.
8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.”

So how can those souls in hell see and speak if they know nothing at all?

Again, we have to recognize figurative language. In this passage from Isaiah, have you ever seen trees rejoicing? Have you ever heard of cedars trees singing? I don't know of anyone who has ever seen a tee rejoicing of cedar trees singing. I would think if that happens it would be common knowledge as it would be such a spectacular event. No, I think it's pretty clear that this is hyperbole. It's figurative language.

Regarding the definition of death, we don't have to use man's definition, we have God's. God told Adam if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die. Here's what happened when he did.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:17–19.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You guys are making simple matters super complicated. God's design of living creature is clearly laid out in Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 2:19 - He formed the "BODY" from the dust of the ground, which means organic earthly matter; then he breathed life into that body, which ANIMATES it into a living being, and it becomes a "SOUL":

the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7)
Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. (Genesis 2:19)

There goes the definition of soul - a living being, emphesis on LIVING. A body is a "being", a soul is a LIVING being. When the "soul" reaches its expiration date, scienfitically proven as the limit of cell division cycles, it goes back to where it came from, commonly known as "dust to dust":

For dust you are, and to dust you shall return. (Genesis 3:19)

However, a "living being" is not the entirety of what we are, because there is also a spiritual life distinct from the fleshly life:

Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:5-6)

Therefore, by this definition from the bible, upon death, both body and soul decompose back into earthly matters. To clarify, decomposition is NOT annihilation, "cease to exist" is against the first law of thermodynamics. Body, soul and spirit are not separate entities, the spirit is the power that DRIVES the body to move as a soul. They are interconnected. The only part that's potentially subject to eternal torment is the SPIRIT. If we can agree that God is eternal, and the Spirit is the breath of God as stated in Gen. 2:7, then the Spirit is eternal as well. Upon death, it goes back to its maker, simple as that.

Then there arises this question - does that mean universal salvation? Do all go back to God? The answer is no, because what you probably don't realize is that there're unclean spirits from Satan (Rev. 16:13). They can possess a person, as indicated in Matt. 12:43, and they can be cast out by the name of Yeshua and ONLY by the name of Yeshua. However, if it's NOT cast out, then it goes down into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And what does it mean to be dead? Do we define being dead and death according to man’s definition, or according to God’s definition?

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, Gen. 3:19, both man's and God's definition.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

I'm not wrong. If you study interpretation and church history, you can easily see how this happens. Modern Christianity is an echo chamber. People just read each other's works and parrot the same thing. Well, when everyone believes the same thing, what would we expect all of the translations and commentaries to say? I mean, you often can't even get on a translation board if you don't believe the Trinity. So, If all of the translators believe in the Trintiy do you suppose they would put out a translation opposing the Trinity? Of course not. So, all of their translations use the pronoun "he" when translating passages about the holy Spirit. However, in the Greek text the pronoun is "it" not 'he". They do this because they all think the Holy Spirit is a third person. However, as I said, in the Greek text the pronoun is "it" not "he". This is translator bias. It affects every single translation. It's unavoidable. Everyone who translates has an existing belief system which they filter their translation through. It's unavoidable. Look at how many believe Christians go to Heaven when they die, and yet there is not even "one" single passage to suggest such a thing. In fact we have the exact opposite stated by none other than Jessus Himself.

33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 13:33.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 5:5.

And, as I've pointed out, Paul, in 1 Cor. 15 speaking of dead Christians, said if there is no resurrection they had "already" perished. How could Paul say such a thing if they were alive in Heaven? He couldn't. And yet here we have millions, if not billions of Christians believing they go to Heaven when they die. Now, there are a lot more Christians than theologians. So, if millions or billions can be wrong about what the Bible says, why would we think that fewer theologians couldn't be wrong?

My friend, I can't emphasize enough how much Christians should study church history and textual criticism. One doesn't need to spend an inordinate amount of time looking at textual criticism to see that translators face all kinds of difficulties and issues when translating. It's not a matter of translating a word for a word. Often there are several different readings of a passage, called variants. Which one is correct? No one knows. the translators have to look at all of the passages and make an educated guess. Often a passage can be translated in more than one way. Often there are passages that are ambiguous, they could mean this, or they could mean that. Again, it's up to the translator's discretion how he translates it. When he does this he is entering his bias into the translation. You're getting what he "thinks" the writer is saying. Now consider that all of the writers believe the same thing and is it any wonder all of the translations end up looking the same?

Here is a brief overview of textual criticism. Daniel Wallace is one of the foremost Greek scholars today. Notice, he says, 'you're not even getting the tip of the iceberg. If the tip of the iceberg had a tip that's what you're getting'. That's how deep and complicated the issue of translation is. There are many variables to deal with.

Here's an interview with a translator.

Very interesting. Here is well known NT Bible scholar Bart Ehramns take on heaven, resurrection etc .


EHRMAN: "Paul is very important for understanding the history of heaven and hell, as he's important for understanding most things about early Christian thinking. Paul was not a follower of Jesus during his lifetime, during Jesus' lifetime. He wasn't one of the disciples. He converted several years after Jesus' death. He - Paul was Jewish. He was raised Jewish. He wasn't raised in Israel; he was from outside of Israel. He was a Greek-speaking Jew. But he was also, like Jesus, an apocalypticist who thought that at the end of the age, there would be a resurrection of the dead.

When he became convinced that Jesus was raised from the dead, he thought that the resurrection had started. And so he talked about living in the last days because he assumed that everybody else now was going to be raised to follow suit. And so Paul thought he would be alive when the end came. For Paul, Jesus was going to come back from heaven and bring in God's kingdom here on Earth, and people would be raised from the dead for glorious eternity. Paul, in his earliest letters, affirms that view of the imminent resurrection. It's going to come very soon. And he fully expected to be alive when it happened.

But then time dragged on, and a couple of decades passed, and it didn't arrive, and Paul started realizing that, in fact, he might die before it happens. And so in some of his later letters, he ponders the possibility of death, and he wonders, well, what happens to me, then? If I'm brought into the presence of Christ at the resurrection, and, you know, there's a gap between the time I die and - what happens to me during that gap? And he started thinking that, surely, he's going to be in Christ's presence during that time.

And so he came up with the idea that he would have a temporary residence up with Christ in God's realm, in heaven, until the end came. And so this is what the later Paul has to say, and this is the beginning of the Christian idea of heaven and hell, that you can exist - even though your physical remains are dead, you can exist in the presence of God in heaven. And once Paul started saying that, his followers really latched onto it because most of Paul's converts were from Greek circles. They were gentiles. They weren't Jews. And they had been raised with the idea that your soul lives on after death, and now they had a Christian model to put it on. They could say that, yes, your soul lives on, and so when you die, your soul will go up to God with heaven. And as time went on, that became the emphasis rather than the idea of the resurrection with the dead."

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

The problem here, and the reason so many fall for this doctrine is the erroneous translation of aion. The Greek word aion is sometimes translated forever. This is demonstrably wrong. The word does not and cannot mean eternal. In addition to that, Paul states unequivocally that the Father alone has immortality. If man does not have immortality, how can he suffer eternally? The only way that would be possible is if God gave him eternal life. However, we are told in Scripture that eternal life is reserved for the righteous, not the wicked. So, if God doesn't give the wicked eternal life and they don't already have it, there is no way they can suffer eternally. On a third point the Lake of Fire doesn't burn for eternity. Jeremiah prophesied of a time when that area would once again be made holy to the Lord. There are other evidences from Scripture that show that the doctrine of eternal torment is not what the Bible teaches, we could discuss those also if you'd like.

Yep - i see what you say.

1 Timothy 6:16
He alone is immortal; he lives in the light that no one can approach.

Rom2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." -

That's where sinners go. For ever and ever amen..

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