Gehenna Hell - The punishment of the wicked knows no end!

[Waggles]

Since the word aion, or age, in Scripture may denote either the present finite age, or the future endless age, to determine the meaning of aionios, "eternal," "for ever," "everlasting," it is necessary first to determine to which age, "this age," or "the age to come," the thing exists to which "everlasting" is applied.
Onesimus, as a slave, existed in the world of time, and when he is called an aionion or "everlasting" servant (Phm 1:15), the term is used in a finite sense, which ends when the life in this world ends.
God is a being which exists in the infinite aion, and is therefore aionios (eternal) in the endless signification of the term.
Since the spirits of angels and men exist in the future aion as well as the present one, they also are "eternal" in the infinite sense.
If anything belongs solely to the present age, it is aionion or "everlasting" in the limited sense; if it belongs to the future age, or aion, it is aionion or "everlasting" in the infinite or unlimited sense.
If, therefore, the punishment of the wicked occurs in the present aion, it is aionion in the sense of temporal; but if it occurs in the future aion, it is aionion in the sense of endless.
The adjective "eternal" or "for ever" takes its meaning from its noun.
The same distinction of two ages, "this age," which is finite, and "the age to come," which is infinite or endless, holds for the Old Testament.
"For ever," applied to things of this age, has the sense of perpetual (Exo 21:6, Lev 16:34, 1Sam 27:12 note. *1Ch 28:4, +**Psa 24:9 note. ?Ecc 1:4), in the limited sense.
But otherwise, and this constitutes the majority of instances, "for ever" is used in an unlimited sense, whenever it pertains to the "age to come" (see Shedd, The Doctrine of Endless Punishment, pp. 79-88).
Consult the note at Matt 24:3 on "end," Gr. sunteleia, and it will be understood that the "end" of the world or age mentioned there corresponds to the end of this present finite age, and corresponds to the beginning of the infinite age,
or "age to come,"
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Since the word aion, or age, in Scripture may denote either the present finite age, or the future endless age, to determine the meaning of aionios, "eternal," "for ever," "everlasting," it is necessary first to determine to which age, "this age," or "the age to come," the thing exists to which "everlasting" is applied.
Onesimus, as a slave, existed in the world of time, and when he is called an aionion or "everlasting" servant (Phm 1:15), the term is used in a finite sense, which ends when the life in this world ends.
God is a being which exists in the infinite aion, and is therefore aionios (eternal) in the endless signification of the term.
Since the spirits of angels and men exist in the future aion as well as the present one, they also are "eternal" in the infinite sense.
If anything belongs solely to the present age, it is aionion or "everlasting" in the limited sense; if it belongs to the future age, or aion, it is aionion or "everlasting" in the infinite or unlimited sense.
If, therefore, the punishment of the wicked occurs in the present aion, it is aionion in the sense of temporal; but if it occurs in the future aion, it is aionion in the sense of endless.
The adjective "eternal" or "for ever" takes its meaning from its noun.
The same distinction of two ages, "this age," which is finite, and "the age to come," which is infinite or endless, holds for the Old Testament.
"For ever," applied to things of this age, has the sense of perpetual (Exo 21:6, Lev 16:34, 1Sam 27:12 note. *1Ch 28:4, +**Psa 24:9 note. ?Ecc 1:4), in the limited sense.
But otherwise, and this constitutes the majority of instances, "for ever" is used in an unlimited sense, whenever it pertains to the "age to come" (see Shedd, The Doctrine of Endless Punishment, pp. 79-88).
Consult the note at Matt 24:3 on "end," Gr. sunteleia, and it will be understood that the "end" of the world or age mentioned there corresponds to the end of this present finite age, and corresponds to the beginning of the infinite age,
or "age to come,"
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004

If it’s a noun used to describe an age, then of course it won’t be infinite, that would be antithesis to the word “age” itself. However, “this age” and “the age to come” are referring to the second temple period and the church age, after that is the millennial kingdom, after that are the Lake of Fire and the New Jerusalem, both of those destinations are infinite, “forever and ever” in Rev. 20:10 and 22:5 definitely means eternity, there is no expiration date in that context.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

You're conflating Gehenna with the Lake of Fire.

Strawman prop. I did not even use the word Gehenna in all my posts, neither did I conflate Gehenna to the lake of fire in my posts. This is just your attempt to build a strawman arguement.

It is a fail.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Yes, both words are in Scripture.

Glad we can agree on that.

Yes, it does. It says the man which is the body "became" a living soul.

Yes, and notice it did not say man became a “living body”. The word body and soul are different words. Jesus said there is BOTH a body and a soul.

Ok, now reread that passage and replace the word soul with the word life.

I’m not one to try to change the words of God, and I would advise you against it as well.

Actually, there's no such thing as spiritual death.

If it is not physical then it is spiritual.

Adam did die in the day he ate from the tree. If we look at the ancient Jewish and early Chrisitan understanding of this, we see what God meant. David said a thousand years in God's sight are as yesterday. Peter, alluding to this passage said a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. They're referring to God's prophetic day. Adam lived 930 years. That's just short of a thousand years, one day.

Now you are grasping at straws. If we are “dead in our trespasses and sins” it does not take a thousand years, it is immediate.

Here's the early Christian understanding.

2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit,—it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”

Irenaeus of Lyons, “Irenæus against Heresies,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 551–552.

Here is the Jewish perspective from the book of Jubilees.

Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he 30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

This is all Mumbo jumbo

On the contrary. Paul often uses death as a metaphor. Paul also said, "I die daily" Was he spiritually dead? He also said he was alive without the Law but when the Law came, he died. Was Paul spiritually alive and then when he heard the Law he died spiritually?

Paul was speaking of “spiritual things” so yes there is a spiritual death. But the natural man is unable receive and understand the spiritual things of God because he only knows what he knows naturally.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

No. He's using death as metaphor. Just like in Ephesian, dead in sin is simply a way of saying they could do nothing about their sinful condition. Just as a dead man can do nothing about his condition.

Jesus too uses death as a metaphor. There is nothing in Scripture about spiritual death. That's not even possible because man is not a spirit.

Man is body, soul, and spirit….
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The only spirit in man is God.

Not true, the majority of the world have the spirit of the Devil working in them.
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

He puts His breath/spirit in man to make man alive and to believers He gives the Holy Spirit.

The breath of life is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Everything that lives God gave life to, but that does mean that every living creature is Holy, or that every man has the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Strawman prop. I did not even use the word Gehenna in all my posts, neither did I conflate Gehenna to the lake of fire in my posts. This is just your attempt to build a strawman arguement.

It is a fail.

The term “hell” doesn’t exist in the original Hebrew or Greek. The correct equivalent is either Gehenna - valley of Hinnom, real place where dead bodies were bring burned; Sheol - grave, a holding place for dead people, whereYeshua stayed for two days; then Hades, NT equivalent of Sheol; then there’s the Lake of Fire prepared for spiritual beings. In Matt. 10:28 Yeshua was unequivocally referring to Gehenna instead of any other one.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yes, and notice it did not say man became a “living body”. The word body and soul are different words. Jesus said there is BOTH a body and a soul.

The BIBLICAL definition of body, soul and spirit is given - Body + Spirit = Soul:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7)

Same definition applies at the end times when the Beast is making counterfeits:

He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (Rev. 13:15)

Therefore, "soul" is not a separate entity, but the outcome of fleshly entity and spiritual entity combined. In Matt. 10:28 which you repeatedly quoted, both body and soul are destroyed when there's NO RESURRECTION. For those who are born again in SPIRIT, they will have a new life in a new body like Yeshua did when he was risen from the dead, therefore their souls are NOT destroyed, they just "fall asleep", when Yeshua returns they will rise again.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, and notice it did not say man became a “living body”. The word body and soul are different words. Jesus said there is BOTH a body and a soul.

Is it your contention that man isn't a living body? Yes, body and soul are different words. Water and hydrogen are different words too, yet they are intrinsically connected, you can't have water without hydrogen. You can't have soul without a body.

I’m not one to try to change the words of God, and I would advise you against it as well.

Neither am I. However, we are not changing God's word. We are changing man's word, the translator's word. If we change the word soul to life the passage makes perfect sense, and we don't need to introduce ghosts to understand it.

If it is not physical then it is spiritual.

That's an arbitrary statement. However, all death is physical, at least as it applies to man.

Now you are grasping at straws. If we are “dead in our trespasses and sins” it does not take a thousand years, it is immediate.

"Dead in sins" is a metaphor. Adam's death was literal. They are not comparable.

This is all Mumbo jumbo

Cherry Picking, are we? No, my friend, it's not mumbo jumbo. It's the historic Christian faith and it's also the historic Jewish faith

Paul was speaking of “spiritual things” so yes there is a spiritual death. But the natural man is unable receive and understand the spiritual things of God because he only knows what he knows naturally.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

That's a non sequitur. Again, there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of spiritual death. Also, in 1 Cor. 2:14 dechomai, translated receive is a middle voice verb. Basically, it means the natural man does not accept. It doesn't mean he is unable. He just refuses it.

Man is body, soul, and spirit….
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, man is body, life, and breath. The life, soul, consists of the breath of God, spirit, and the body. Notice Paul says, "sanctify you wholly" then he says, ""your" whole body, soul, and spirit". The word "your" denotes possession or ownership, not person. "You" denote person. Thus, Paul is saying that the body, soul, and spirit, are the whole person. Compare this with what God said to Adam where God uses the word "you" which denotes person, not possession.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:19.

For dust you are. God said Adam is dust. He didn't say, your body is dust. He said you are dust. This is exactly what we see in the creation of man in Gen 2:7. God created man from the dust of the ground. This isn't the only place God tells us what man is.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 6:3.

This statement is pretty clear. Man is flesh. God didn't say, man's body is flesh. He said, man is flesh. So, yes, man has soul or life. Yes, man has a spirit or breath in him. It is the breath or spirit of life from God, and it is God.

.

Not true, the majority of the world have the spirit of the Devil working in them.
Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Again, unless you believe the majority of the world is demon possessed, this is a metaphor.

The breath of life is not the same as the Holy Spirit. Everything that lives God gave life to, but that does mean that every living creature is Holy, or that every man has the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

The word that is translated spirit literally means wind and by extension breath. Spirit is a "figurative" use of the word. The problem is that English readers often import the English concept of spirit, a disembodied living being, into the definition of these Greek and Hebrew words. They mean wind, not a disembodied living being. God gives life to all things; thus, his breath of life is in them. The Holy breath on the hand is only given to believers. This is what helps them live holy in a sin filled world.

 

[KingJ]

The point of the question wasn't about translations per se. It was about your insistence that they are right. That's why I asked the question. You've insisted that aion mean eternal because all of the translations say it does. That's why I asked you why we, you don't use the same bible as Jesus and the apostles.

I don't speak latin.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Also, in 1 Cor. 2:14 Basically, it means the natural man does not accept. It doesn't mean he is unable. He just refuses it.

No it means exactly what God says it means, the natural carnally minded man CANNOT receive the spiritual things of God. A man must be born again of the Spirit in order to receive, perceive, comprehend, or understand what the Spirit is saying in God’s word.

Matthew 19:11
But he said unto them, All men cannot receivethis saying, save they to whom it is given.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

This is also why you cannot receive what it is I am saying when I speak of the “spiritual things” of God.

Again, unless you believe the majority of the world is demon possessed, this is a metaphor.

You have no idea do you? This is because the natural man only knows what he knows naturally.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

The word that is translated spirit literally means wind and by extension breath. Spirit is a "figurative" use of the word. The problem is that English readers often import the English concept of spirit, a disembodied living being, into the definition of these Greek and Hebrew words. They mean wind, not a disembodied living being. God gives life to all things; thus, his breath of life is in them. The Holy breath on the hand is only given to believers. This is what helps them live holy in a sin filled world.

 

[Butch5]

I don't speak latin.

Speaking Latin has nothing to do with it. What I'm interested in is this, If the translators are correct because they all say the same thing, why do we use the Bible of the unbelieving Jews rather than the Bible of the believing Christians, the one Jesus and the apostles used? The translators know we are using the Bible of the unbelieving Jews and not that of the believing Christians. So, why don't they correct this? After all, if they all agree doesn't that make them right? If we follow that line of reasoning, we have to say that they are correct in using the Bible of the unbelieving Jews rather than that of the believing Christians, Jesus, and apostles. Just for clarification, when I say Bible here, I am referring to the Old Testament. That is the only Bible the Jews recognize.

 

[Butch5]

No it means exactly what God says it means, the natural carnally minded man CANNOT receive the spiritual things of God. A man must be born again of the Spirit in order to receive, perceive, comprehend, or understand what the Spirit is saying in God’s word.

Matthew 19:11
But he said unto them, All men cannot receivethis saying, save they to whom it is given.

Well, doesn't that make sense? Only those to whom it is given can receive it? I mean, how can someone receive something if it's not give to them? You can't receive a hundred dollars from me if I don't give to you? How does this prove your point about the passage from 1 Cor.?

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That's because the holy breath is only given to believers. See above.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

This is also why you cannot receive what it is I am saying when I speak of the “spiritual things” of God.

Oh please! I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard that from Christians who can't defend what they say.

You have no idea do you? This is because the natural man only knows what he knows naturally.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Really? You've not even shown where Spiritual death is in Scripture. Are you sure it's me that doesn't have any idea?

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Well, doesn't that make sense? Only those to whom it is given can receive it? I mean, how can someone receive something if it's not give to them? You can't receive a hundred dollars from me if I don't give to you? How does this prove your point about the passage from 1 Cor.?

That's because the holy breath is only given to believers. See above.

Oh please! I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard that from Christians who can't defend what they say.

Really? You've not even shown where Spiritual death is in Scripture. Are you sure it's me that doesn't have any idea?

Only those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear by God can see and hear what the Spirit is saying in a mystery in God’s words.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Why can’t they see and hear?

Mark 4:11-12

King James Version

​

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”

John 3….
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.”

1 Corinthians 3:1-2

King James Version

​

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death;but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

[Butch5]

Only those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear by God can see and hear what the Spirit is saying in a mystery in God’s words.



Revelation 2:11

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.



Why can’t they see and hear?



Mark 4:11-12

King James Version


11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”



John 3….

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?



5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?



11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.



12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?



27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.



31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.



32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.”



1 Corinthians 3:1-2

King James Version


3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.



Romans 8:6

For to be carnally minded is death;but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.



Romans 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.



Revelation 2:17

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Only those who have been given eyes to see and ears to hear by God can see and hear what the Spirit is saying in a mystery in God’s words.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Why can’t they see and hear?

Mark 4:11-12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.”

John 3….
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.”

1 Corinthians 3:1-2​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death;but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Can you put one of those passages back into context and show how it proves your point?

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Can you put one of those passages back into context and show how it proves your point?

Deuteronomy 29:1-4

King James Version

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29 These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.”

1 Corinthians 2:10-14

King James Version

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10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Butch5]

Deuteronomy 29:1-4​

​

King James Version​

​

​

29 These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.”

1 Corinthians 2:10-14​

​

King James Version​

​

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10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I guess that's a no?

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Well, doesn't that make sense? Only those to whom it is given can receive it? I mean, how can someone receive something if it's not give to them? You can't receive a hundred dollars from me if I don't give to you? How does this prove your point about the passage from 1 Cor.?

That's because the holy breath is only given to believers. See above.

Oh please! I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard that from Christians who can't defend what they say.

Really? You've not even shown where Spiritual death is in Scripture. Are you sure it's me that doesn't have any idea?

I actually just joined this forum after following this thread a little and took awhile to join in. I don't see a direct reference to the word "spiritual death" however, If someone can be alive physically and still be said to be dead even while they are living it's certainly implied.

For example here,

1 Timothy 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

The verse wouldn't be talking about that person being dead (carnally so) but spiritually so.

Because we know that the body itself without its own spirit is dead (physically so) whereas in the above example that woman (even as it pertains to
her body) is still living even while the same woman is said to be dead while she is.

And without further explanation the verse itself makes evident the kind of dead it is not speaking of, which is not of the carnal/natural/physical kind
of dead (as it pertains to her living fleshly body). It implies she is dead (spiritually so) even while she yet lives (physically so) in the body (both in/after the flesh).

The words "dead while she liveth" rules out the obvious, that it's not speaking of her physical life being distinguished (or body as being dead).
It seems to be a perfect example of someone said to be physically alive (in the flesh and walking after it) but spiritually dead (and not according to the Spirit)

Another example can be noted in Mat 8:21

When one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and "Let the dead bury their dead".

We know that physically dead people cannot bury other physically dead people, but spiritually dead people (who can be dead while they liveth)
can bury physically dead people.

A spiritually dead person (who can be alive in th flesh) could bury a physically dead person (who is dead according to the flesh).
The one dead (spiritually so) could bury the other dead (carnally so). It's really the nature of the kind of dead a person might be. So if its not
speaking of dead (carnally speaking) its speaking spiritually as it relates to the nature of dead.

There would be no need to contend over literalness of either kind of "dead" seeing that one can be physicaly dead (literally so) even as the other
can be spiritually dead (just as literally so) and even while they still live (literally so).

Just adding this for consideration.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened,( made alive) who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened ( made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

When we get the victory over the mark of sin by faith in Jesus Christ, we also get victory over the name of the man/ beast, which is Death.

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Revelation 3:1
And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened,( made alive) who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened ( made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

When we get the victory over the mark of sin by faith in Jesus Christ, we also get victory over the name of the man/ beast, which is Death.

Its not coming together for me fully yet but here is wisdom and understanding and how it can also apply to some of what you have shown

Job 28:28 And unto man he said,
Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Even as we are told,
Prov 21:16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.

Even as similiar can be shown here
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write;
These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Even as it speaks of "here is wisdom" and as it pertains to understanding this way in relation to what you might be trying to show

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

But how if at all would this at all fit given the similarity of the one who sits name here being death as well

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I tried to keep the highlighting in sinc with yours, how'd I do? lol

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Forgive me being new here, I just replied to the person above me but it says, " This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors."

Is it my post or the other persons post that needs approval? How do you get approval for a post?

 

[Butch5]

Forgive me being new here, I just replied to the person above me but it says, " This message is awaiting moderator approval, and is invisible to normal visitors."

Is it my post or the other persons post that needs approval? How do you get approval for a post?

Your post is there. I'll respond when I have a minute