Greetings -- A Freindly Atheist Who Wants to Know: Why Christ?

[Butch5]

“I didnt present it as evidence. It's just my opinion.”
––Understood. My apologies.

I know this seems to missing the point, but I don’t consider the many witnesses in the gospels as individual, corroborating accounts. Nor even each of the gospels. My perspective is they all come from a single, uncorroborated source, invoking four inconsistent versions. Matthew describes multiple corpses reanimating to life and walking abroad in Jerusalem. Not a single Roman (notorious record keepers) seems to have noticed a zombie apocalypse. In my opinion details like this and disagreement of who were at the tomb and what their activities were cast doubt on the possible veracity of any of them. The one internal consistency they share is a very rich, symbolic, literary cohesion. Different interpretations upon a single theme which emphasize different core lessons. Details like the sacrifice of Jesus coinciding with Jewish Passover, the festival of the sacrifice of the Pascal lamb, and of Barabbas, whose name in Hebrew means “Son of the father,” presenting a pair of potential sacrifices, one genuine and one counterfeit, echoing the Jewish season of atonement, Yom Kippur. Before the destruction of the second temple, observance of this highest of holy days entailed the selection from all the community of two identically perfect (as possible) goats. Lots were cast and one, thus randomly chosen, was selected as a pure sacrifice to God while the other had all the year’s sins of the entire congregation scrawled on its living hide. It was then driven out, into the wilderness, carrying the people’s sins with it. This is the etymological basis for the English term “scapegoat.” The pure being is sacrificed and the sinful one is spared, a la Jesus and Barabbas.

These are all quite exquisite literary details. They speak to a very poetic notion how redemption is available to all. But they don’t seem to be a police report of factual incidents. And, honestly, I think trying to see them as such is off the mark.

While Roman sources are silent about anything described in the gospels, what we do know about the Roman administration of Jerusalem conflicts with a literal Biblical reading. It was illegal to take down a crucifixion after the victim dies. Crucifixions were horrifying acts of very public execution. Their entire purpose was propaganda, to stand as a constantly visible demonstration of the might and capriciousness of Roman law. One of the fastest ways to get yourself crucified was to take down a crucifixion.

These are some of my main reasons for seeing the gospels as a set of parables. Which (to me) makes sense since that’s exactly how Jesus SAYS he does his teaching in Matthew 13:10.

Anyway, that’s my thinking.

Thanks for posting it. Have you considered
That those things you see as symbols actually are symbols that were made intentionally?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Mr Kirby,

can i butt in at some stage. I don't want to distract you from the other posts so i shall wait my turn.
[did you see the video Nick offered for you, by the way?]

He sent His Son


Bless you ....><>

 

[Christ4Ever]

While Roman sources are silent about anything described in the gospels, what we do know about the Roman administration of Jerusalem conflicts with a literal Biblical reading. It was illegal to take down a crucifixion after the victim dies. Crucifixions were horrifying acts of very public execution. Their entire purpose was propaganda, to stand as a constantly visible demonstration of the might and capriciousness of Roman law. One of the fastest ways to get yourself crucified was to take down a crucifixion.

Yes but not reality? Read the Biblical story again and see who requested, and who authorized the taking down and internment. Politics & Money have always held sway over just about any law in any time period. As evidenced rather frequently in our own time period.

So, the Biblical account has more to do with the reality of politics, and the influence of money then taking a particular law for gospel as having no exceptions. Which is what you are basing your case on.

Also, remember that the request for the crucifixion was at the behest of the Jews, and not something actually desired by the Roman Governor. He did this only to appease the religious authority.

You should stick with the Biblical account as I do, and as many actual historians do as well.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Thanks for posting it. Have you considered
That those things you see as symbols actually are symbols that were made intentionally?

i consider it a possibility. But with so many contradictory details among the gospels and absolutely no non-Biblical corroboration, it strikes me as much more likely they are four variations upon the same basis object lesson.

 

[Br. Bear]

Michael Card did some talks on that
He has some good music. too, for those who like to look at some deeper bits than the norm
Quite a few books, also

You might find some interesting if you 'look him up'

Grace and Peace ....><>

 

[Butch5]

i consider it a possibility. But with so many contradictory details among the gospels and absolutely no non-Biblical corroboration, it strikes me as much more likely they are four variations upon the same basis object lesson.

What contradictory details? I often find that what appears to be a problem is cleared up with deeper study

 

[Br. Bear]

What contradictory details? I often find that what appears to be a problem is cleared up with deeper study

Greetings,

i often find that what appears to be a problem is cleared up with prayer and trusting


Bless you ....><>

 

[eklypised]

i consider it a possibility. But with so many contradictory details among the gospels and absolutely no non-Biblical corroboration, it strikes me as much more likely they are four variations upon the same basis object lesson.

Which “contradictions” bother you the most?

 

[Enxu]

Hello.

I am an atheist. I live in one of the world’s great secular, pluralistic communities. I was raised nominally observant (Jewish) and, outside of specific religious activity, none of my social interactions have depended upon faith. Very few of my friends are atheist, but those who do believe in some god are generally nonobservant and none of them challenge my atheism – we are a close-knit social set. To the best of my knowledge, none or few of them believe in literal salvation and I know for a fact none of them believe in any literal Hell. Of the believers among my friends, I think they all agree there is an afterlife and some sort of creative spirit behind creation.

I do not.

Anyway, I am absolutely obsessed with understanding the nature of existence. And I try never to discount any premise merely on my current assumptions from day to day. I do read/watch/listen to Christian media but, as any thinking person of 2015, I take these all with a grain of salt. My past experiences (going back almost 20 years or more) with devout Christians were intensely unpleasant, but they were always situations where overarching, worldly issues made friendly inspection of the basis for belief impossible.

I’m here to strike up a conversation with a real believer(s) who might be interested in… well… saving me, and also might want to hear why I feel that belief is wrongheaded – I don’t mean to say that as an insult. If I DIDN’T think belief was wrongheaded, then I would, of course, believe. I don’t have faith in anything, even my own conviction that there are no gods. So, I welcome the chance to see if that weak conviction bears up, or if I can be shown the need for faith.

I hope I can look forward to a friendly tussle.

Kirby

Kirby, I will speak both from personal experience as well as human reasoning.

I myself was born into a completely atheistic family, in an environment of atheistic beliefs and barely had the chance to hear about Christ before I migrated. I never gave the possibility of a Creator much thought before my conversion because my life was in turmoil much of my schooling years before high school. My parents were often at odds with each other, there was much verbal abuse and violence going on. Outside I was subject to ostracisation simply because of where I came from. I hated my life and pretty much the society I lived in and was fearful, depressed and suicidal by the time I reached puberty.

Then one fateful day when I was fourteen, I was brought to a church program where I heard for the first time Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. I didn’t even understand the story but I just felt a gush of love enter my heart. I never even felt this kind of love in my own family because of the violence I witnessed. At that very moment it was as though a darkness lifted from me, much of the depression, hatred and fear I felt was instantaneously gone. So I weeped uncontrollably and accepted my newfound faith that same night. This is just how real that experience is.

Fast forward fourteen years to today, I became a Christian despite an atheistic background because this faith is as real to me as the air we breath. Not only was I delivered from much darkness, my family changed from one of violence to that of peace. Not once did my family approach a family counselling center so the drastic change was not due to man’s effort but due to supernatural cleansing that came from God.

I will continue the next part in another post.

 

[Enxu]

Hello.

I am an atheist. I live in one of the world’s great secular, pluralistic communities. I was raised nominally observant (Jewish) and, outside of specific religious activity, none of my social interactions have depended upon faith. Very few of my friends are atheist, but those who do believe in some god are generally nonobservant and none of them challenge my atheism – we are a close-knit social set. To the best of my knowledge, none or few of them believe in literal salvation and I know for a fact none of them believe in any literal Hell. Of the believers among my friends, I think they all agree there is an afterlife and some sort of creative spirit behind creation.

I do not.

Anyway, I am absolutely obsessed with understanding the nature of existence. And I try never to discount any premise merely on my current assumptions from day to day. I do read/watch/listen to Christian media but, as any thinking person of 2015, I take these all with a grain of salt. My past experiences (going back almost 20 years or more) with devout Christians were intensely unpleasant, but they were always situations where overarching, worldly issues made friendly inspection of the basis for belief impossible.

I’m here to strike up a conversation with a real believer(s) who might be interested in… well… saving me, and also might want to hear why I feel that belief is wrongheaded – I don’t mean to say that as an insult. If I DIDN’T think belief was wrongheaded, then I would, of course, believe. I don’t have faith in anything, even my own conviction that there are no gods. So, I welcome the chance to see if that weak conviction bears up, or if I can be shown the need for faith.

I hope I can look forward to a friendly tussle.

Kirby

Now onto why God is real: there is so much evidence in creation itself. From how the universe is governed by a complex set of physical and other forms of law as exposited by the sciences to the kind of information stored in human and animal DNA. Matter cannot self generate information or create laws to run itself. All these laws of physics and information naturally requires a Law Setter and Information Designer, which necessitates the presence of a Creator with intelligence and supernatural power. Scientists like Newton all acknowledge that there must be a Creator for the universe to turn out the way it did.

I don’t know what causes you to have doubts about the Christian faith but I can tell you that the Christianity you see today is very much different from the Christianity that first started out in AD30. Through the centuries evil men have already changed, corrupted and misrepresented what the founder of the faith, Jesus, really taught and lived by. But no matter what evil men do, they can never alter what Jesus actually said or how He showed what the Christian faith really is.

From the Bible itself, you will know what the faith Jesus teaches really is: to love God and to love your neighbour as yourself. This is the standard, the law of God He Himself lived by and requires all who profess to be Christians to live by. Those who fail to love God naturally are not able to love other human beings, which is the foundamental reason why people do evil things to each other. It does not even matter if the person claims to be a Christian, if he/she does not actively practise what the faith of Jesus teaches in the Bible, the same person is a hypocrite and an unbeliever and will receive a greater punishment than those who never knew what Jesus taught. This is what the Bible itself says.

The law of God, to love Him and love your neighbour as yourself is the only solution to evil and suffering. This law naturally discourages people from being selfish and doing evil to others. But sadly many don’t even acknowledge God exists, let alone live by His law. This world is under the influence of evil, and the Bible clearly points out that men are tempted to do evil by the devil and his servants. The devil is the unseen evil personality that seeks to corrupt and then destroy mankind. He does this corruption through deception, oppression and temptations. Just look at the world around you and you see his works everywhere. Only in the Christian faith are we made aware of this corrupting influence and commanded to resist him through the power of God. Much of mankind is under his deception, not knowing that he exists to destroy mankind and thus they just give in to his corrupting influences without much thought. Even if they do know he exists, they are completely powerless against him because he is much more powerful than human beings.

 

[Enxu]

Hello.

I am an atheist. I live in one of the world’s great secular, pluralistic communities. I was raised nominally observant (Jewish) and, outside of specific religious activity, none of my social interactions have depended upon faith. Very few of my friends are atheist, but those who do believe in some god are generally nonobservant and none of them challenge my atheism – we are a close-knit social set. To the best of my knowledge, none or few of them believe in literal salvation and I know for a fact none of them believe in any literal Hell. Of the believers among my friends, I think they all agree there is an afterlife and some sort of creative spirit behind creation.

I do not.

Anyway, I am absolutely obsessed with understanding the nature of existence. And I try never to discount any premise merely on my current assumptions from day to day. I do read/watch/listen to Christian media but, as any thinking person of 2015, I take these all with a grain of salt. My past experiences (going back almost 20 years or more) with devout Christians were intensely unpleasant, but they were always situations where overarching, worldly issues made friendly inspection of the basis for belief impossible.

I’m here to strike up a conversation with a real believer(s) who might be interested in… well… saving me, and also might want to hear why I feel that belief is wrongheaded – I don’t mean to say that as an insult. If I DIDN’T think belief was wrongheaded, then I would, of course, believe. I don’t have faith in anything, even my own conviction that there are no gods. So, I welcome the chance to see if that weak conviction bears up, or if I can be shown the need for faith.

I hope I can look forward to a friendly tussle.

Kirby

Now I know you will go onto ask why then does a good God allow evil and the devil to exist.


There are two primary explanations. First, God desires mankind to have a righteous character like He does. But in order to even have a distinction between evil and good, there must be evil present. How can anyone be determined as a person of good character if we never have the chance to choose between good and evil? The devil, being a created angelic being, also had a chance to choose good and evil. He chose evil to dominate his personality and it was this choice that led to his downfall and corruption. The same choices are given to mankind, to sift out those who truly want to be good people no matter the cost from those who only want to be good when convenient (ie. from a self serving perspective). Those who want to be good only when convenient will one day choose evil when being good becomes costly, thus revealing who they really are inside. Again, without the presence of evil such distinctions of persons can never happen. God, being eternally righteous, will never allow such a person in His presence because they will one day corrupt His creation and bring about the same kind of evil and destruction that we see in the world today wrought by evil people.

Second, God is able to use evil (ie. suffering) to bring about the good He desires: the sanctification of those who are willing to become righteous at all costs. Even among those who don’t believe there is a consensus that hardship can shape good character so I believe you can understand what I am talking about here. God knows that suffering can bring about good because it is through suffering that good character gets ingrained in individuals, provided they endure the suffering with the right mindset. This is the one of the primary reasons why He allows innocent people to suffer. Suffering also has the effect of humbling people, so when God sees a person on a path of corruption He will allow suffering to wake them up so they don’t continue on that path. Suffering brings people into dependency on God, because without it, people will never know reality of how frail they are. So God also uses suffering to bring people back into a relationship of depending on Him for what is good.

 

[Enxu]

Hello.

I am an atheist. I live in one of the world’s great secular, pluralistic communities. I was raised nominally observant (Jewish) and, outside of specific religious activity, none of my social interactions have depended upon faith. Very few of my friends are atheist, but those who do believe in some god are generally nonobservant and none of them challenge my atheism – we are a close-knit social set. To the best of my knowledge, none or few of them believe in literal salvation and I know for a fact none of them believe in any literal Hell. Of the believers among my friends, I think they all agree there is an afterlife and some sort of creative spirit behind creation.

I do not.

Anyway, I am absolutely obsessed with understanding the nature of existence. And I try never to discount any premise merely on my current assumptions from day to day. I do read/watch/listen to Christian media but, as any thinking person of 2015, I take these all with a grain of salt. My past experiences (going back almost 20 years or more) with devout Christians were intensely unpleasant, but they were always situations where overarching, worldly issues made friendly inspection of the basis for belief impossible.

I’m here to strike up a conversation with a real believer(s) who might be interested in… well… saving me, and also might want to hear why I feel that belief is wrongheaded – I don’t mean to say that as an insult. If I DIDN’T think belief was wrongheaded, then I would, of course, believe. I don’t have faith in anything, even my own conviction that there are no gods. So, I welcome the chance to see if that weak conviction bears up, or if I can be shown the need for faith.

I hope I can look forward to a friendly tussle.

Kirby

God is primarily concerned about shaping people’s character into a good one. This world, regardless of the evil and suffering, is but a training and sifting ground of good and evil people. For those who have endured much suffering, who have faith in God through His Son Jesus, who desire a good character above all else, will be given eternal life. So even if their lives on this world is nothing but suffering, they will receive eternal comfort because they love God and they will have a life of goodness no one on this current earth ever had in their prosperity.

It is this kind of hope and promise that makes true believers in Jesus bold and relentless in living out what the Bible wrote: love God and love your neighbour as yourself. You may not seem such examples much in real life but if you do see one, you will know how true and good the Christian faith is.

 

[David1954]

Some people are allowed to know, "why Christ." Some people are not allowed to know.

 

[DanielCrow]

Very interesting read. I have enjoyed much of this discussions on this topic.

What contradictory details? I often find that what appears to be a problem is cleared up with deeper study

I thought Christians accepted that the 4 gospels were not all in sync with each other?

Now onto why God is real: there is so much evidence in creation itself. From how the universe is governed by a complex set of physical and other forms of law as exposited by the sciences to the kind of information stored in human and animal DNA. Matter cannot self generate information or create laws to run itself. All these laws of physics and information naturally requires a Law Setter and Information Designer, which necessitates the presence of a Creator with intelligence and supernatural power. Scientists like Newton all acknowledge that there must be a Creator for the universe to turn out the way it did.

I am a Buddhist, but I consider myself an Atheist as well. Buddhism does not have a creator God of the universe.

However, I do understand why people come to this conclusion of a God, I do not see it the same as you do. I see information being created all the time, from matter, without human interaction. Behind the order of the outside world, the inside of the atom is all but randomness, that form and create the information. What I would like to ask, is, why has God ever shown us he exists like he did with Abraham or Moses? That would be a more concrete way of showing us he is.

There are two primary explanations. First, God desires mankind to have a righteous character like He does. But in order to even have a distinction between evil and good, there must be evil present. How can anyone be determined as a person of good character if we never have the chance to choose between good and evil? The devil, being a created angelic being, also had a chance to choose good and evil. He chose evil to dominate his personality and it was this choice that led to his downfall and corruption. The same choices are given to mankind, to sift out those who truly want to be good people no matter the cost from those who only want to be good when convenient (ie. from a self serving perspective). Those who want to be good only when convenient will one day choose evil when being good becomes costly, thus revealing who they really are inside. Again, without the presence of evil such distinctions of persons can never happen. God, being eternally righteous, will never allow such a person in His presence because they will one day corrupt His creation and bring about the same kind of evil and destruction that we see in the world today wrought by evil people.

The story about the Devil has always confused me, as does how he was created into heaven and still became evil. Was there suffering in heaven? Can you still be in heaven and become evil?

Some people are allowed to know, "why Christ." Some people are not allowed to know.

That does not sound very fair.

 

[Butch5]

Very interesting read. I have enjoyed much of this discussions on this topic.



I thought Christians accepted that the 4 gospels were not all in sync with each other?



I am a Buddhist, but I consider myself an Atheist as well. Buddhism does not have a creator God of the universe.

However, I do understand why people come to this conclusion of a God, I do not see it the same as you do. I see information being created all the time, from matter, without human interaction. Behind the order of the outside world, the inside of the atom is all but randomness, that form and create the information. What I would like to ask, is, why has God ever shown us he exists like he did with Abraham or Moses? That would be a more concrete way of showing us he is.


The story about the Devil has always confused me, as does how he was created into heaven and still became evil. Was there suffering in heaven? Can you still be in heaven and become evil?


That does not sound very fair.

Can you elaborate?

 

[DanielCrow]

Can you elaborate?

I have heard that they consider the 4 gospels as akin to 4 people describing a car accident, with each person giving their own testimony that is different but the core message is the same.

 

[Butch5]

I have heard that they consider the 4 gospels as akin to 4 people describing a car accident, with each person giving their own testimony that is different but the core message is the same.

Yeah. But I don't think they contradict each other.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Yeah. But I don't think they contradict each other.

It depends upon your definition of the term “contradiction.” They each definitely make more than one positive statement of fact which is mutually exclusive with their analogs among the others. Fore example, there is no clear narrative of the facts concerning the empty tomb. Mark describes the women discovering ONE person (likely and angel) already INSIDE the tomb, SITTING to “one side.” Matthew describes them witnessing ONE angel approach the tomb from the OUTSIDE, moving the stone, and sitting upon it (not inside the tomb). And Luke describes TWO angels SUDDENLY appearing and standing BESIDE them INSIDE the tomb, neither sitting without OR within.

John, being the vaguest, is the least problematic as it doesn’t say anything about what Mary Magdalene saw at the tomb other than the stone had ALREADY been rolled away and inside it was empty.

These could all be admissible in a court of law as varied, imperfect eyewitness accounts of the same events. But none of them, based on a plain reading of their content can individually be called the “accurate, factual” account.

 

[DanielCrow]

Yeah. But I don't think they contradict each other.

If their description of an event describe two different events, isnt that a contradiction?

 

[KingJ]

What I would like to ask, is, why has God ever shown us he exists like he did with Abraham or Moses? That would be a more concrete way of showing us he is.

We have concrete evidence of God by observing intelligent design in all creations Rom 1:20.

Theologically, If you had to read the bible from start to finish you will see that God tries to remain as isolated as is possible. For me it all points to Him wanting a place where true free will can exist.

If God was your neighbor, you would always be on your best behavior or want to run away to another part of the universe. Earth affords each of us a period to grasp who we are and for Him to grasp who we choose to be. All in relation to our hatred or love of what is wicked.

A person who hates what is wicked and clings to what is good Rom 12:9 is after God's heart and God does draw near to and makes Himself known to such a person James 4:8. He judges such a person at a depth Jer 17:9-11 as only He can. He reveals Jesus as Lord and Saviour to such a person Matt 16:16-17. Hence He can and does make the statement that Jesus is the way and the truth John 14:6.

His people do hear His voice John 10:27 and they know His peace Phil 4:7.

God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We cannot be in an environment of sin and expect Him to be there with His full Glory and presence too. Free will would instantly cease to exist.

God is for an environment where people are free to be Buddhist, atheistic, agnostic, Catholic, Protestant, good, evil, semi sweet, etc.

The story about the Devil has always confused me, as does how he was created into heaven and still became evil. Was there suffering in heaven? Can you still be in heaven and become evil? That does not sound very fair.

Firstly understand that ''ONLY'' God is perfectly good Mark 10:18. No angel in heaven, no human that will be with God will ever be as perfectly good as God. We will always have some flaws.

The devil's flaws warranted removal. We can tell God did the right thing simply by observing what the devil is responsible for in our time.

God draws a line between one sold out to evil and someone not. As only He can Jer 17:9-11. Some will simply never truly repent of their sins. Some love the darkness more then they hate it. John 3:17 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil..

Angels had free will just as we do. The evidence points to an absolutely amazing God!! One that honors true free will.