Heaven after hell?

[Sue D.]

God has given all other people His gift of salvation From the lake of fire and brimstone. We simply need to realize our personal need For being Saved from that. We find That in Romans. For All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God Is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. It's the eternal life with God that we would Want. And That is easily obtained. The shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross plus nothing being done on our part to help it be complete. We acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross, was buried and rose again bodily on the 3rd day. We acknowledge that we can't save ourself -- we accept His gift -- Thank Him for His gift -- and then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell us -- gives us an inner peace that has never been there before. The Holy Spirit stays with us until we are with Jesus Christ.

The Lake of fire and brimstone is meant Only for the devil, beast and the false prophet. Everyone Else has a way out. And it is our decision to make during this lifetime. After 'now' -- we'll be in eternity.

There Are those who think that they want to join their friends in that eternal life in the lake -- but we're Also told that it will be in total darkness -- there will be no 'partying' -- only misery for the rest of eternity = for ever. Nashing of teeth -- God is light -- without Him there is only Dark.

And there Are those who Want to pay Personally For their sins. On another forum quite a while ago, there was a young lady who was determined to pay the price herself. It really disturbed her that Jesus Christ had gone through the horrors of His death -- in her place. Said that if she had been there -- she would have tried to Stop His crucifixion. That we Need to take responsibility for our own sins. She was wanting me to consider the belief system she belonged to. That one didn't have a hell -- just various stages of 'heaven'. She'd even read the Bible a couple of times -- it was simply literature of 'another' belief system.

John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me."

Romans 10: 9-10 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. To be saved.

 

[Garee]

@Garee @complete

Question on annihilationism.

If God annihilates all the wicked in the lake of fire, why would He keep it burning for all eternity?

There are only two possible reasons that come to mind:

1. Your salvation is not secure.
2. The wicked live on, they are not annihilated.

Mercy mixed with grace rejoices against judgment it does not support it . (I will get even suffer forever. ) no scare tatics . he love the hell out of us as we are yoked with him making the sufering of hell lighter.

Father not as I will .

God does not release one and extend the suffering past the last breath of another for ever and ever without end .All of mankind suffers the pangs of hell every day of thier lives in these bodies of death . Death was brought about by the letter of the law .(Death)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: . . .

The judgemnt of the law death acording to the letter . . . it is tossed in the spirit of Judgment never to rise in the new order. .

It’s not the wicked (dead bones the first death ) that are cast in the lake of judgment the second death. There will be no double jeopardy .

But the second death the spirit of judgment itself the letter of the law (death) with its suffering the pangs of hell .Its the law or the suffering of it that will not rise up and condemn through corruption another entire creation.

Either the idea of purgatory is true or the death of death itself is the second death .

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Sue D.]

@Garee -- it sounds like you've had or are having physical disabilities / ailments of one sort or another. So you are equating your suffering in body to being in hell? And there Are lots of people in other countries who Are suffering a Great deal. And that Might seem like 'hell on earth' -- but God's Word tells us that this life 'here' is only temporary. That the future heaven / lake of fire and brimstone are the only places available for real eternity.

Seeings that there Is a judgement for everyone Before being sent -- there is the speculation of degrees Of punishment in lake of fire and brimstone.

And even for born again believers -- we will be judged for how we've lived our lives Here. There Are crowns told about in Scripture -- and we are told that we will lay those at the feet of Jesus. But how we live our lives as born again believers does not determine the 'safety' of our salvation. The Holy Spirit's indwelling us will give us the desire To please God in our daily lives. It won't feel like drudgery -- it Will be very fulfilling. But we Will be answering to God in front of everyone -- that which we've been doing in 'secret'. Because -- even as believers -- we Will get into messes that we shouldn't. And He Does forgive us.

Our body -- as born again believers -- is the temple of the Holy Spirit. So what do we put into our minds, touch with our hands, go with our feet.

 

[B-A-C]

* So the only beings whom we are told will be tormented in the lake of fire for ever and ever are the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Devil.

Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

 

[complete]

Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Hello @B-A-C,

Aah! I missed these two!! Thank you for pointing them out.

* Revelation 14:9-11, refers to those who worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in their forehead, or in their hand. They will be subject to the wrath of God, and will be tormented for ever and ever: and will have no rest day nor night. This is a serious warning isn't it? and not one to be dismissed or watered down, This threat is intended to outweigh the threats and inducements of the Beast and the False Prophet, and enable many to 'endure to the end' rather than submit to them. This period, dreadful though it will be, has a set period to run, and no more, and those who overcome, who keep the faith of Jesus even unto death, and do not believe the religion of the False Prophet. they will receive the reward of having part in the first resurrection, prior to the millennial reign, and of reigning with Christ for 1,000 years.

* Revelation 21:8, lists those whose sins warrant them having their part in the second death. The 'fearful' are those who, through fear, apostatise; The law provides for the cowardly, such as those in Gideon's army (Judges 7:3). The 'unbelieving' are like those of Titus 1:15, Matthew 11:20-24. The 'abominable' are like those in Leviticus 18:22-27. And 'murders' and sorcerers,' are those who have dealings with unclean and lying spirits. These will abound in Antichrist's day; as will all the others named,

* So I was wrong earlier when I said that it is only the Devil, the Beast and the False Prophet who will be tormented for ever and ever.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

we are told that we will lay those at the feet of Jesus

Do you have a scripture for this? Or is it just the 24 elders that will do this?

It seems there are certain things you hear in some churches over and over again, until you start believing it. Even if it isn't in the Bible.
Ploughboy started a thread about presupposition. This is exactly what that thread is talking about.

 

[B-A-C]

But how we live our lives as born again believers does not determine the 'safety' of our salvation.

This is simply not true, hundreds of verses say otherwise.
Another one of those presuppositions.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- so you don't believe in eternal security?
What about Ephesians 1: 13 - 14 "........ in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in us gives us new desires -- we aren't captive to sinfulness as we had been previously.

 

[Sue D.]

Do you have a scripture for this? Or is it just the 24 elders that will do this?

It seems there are certain things you hear in some churches over and over again, until you start believing it. Even if it isn't in the Bible.
Ploughboy started a thread about presupposition. This is exactly what that thread is talking about.

I was just looking that up -- there is the Revelation passage 4 vs 10 that talks about the 24 elders. The idea in the article is that 'we' will probably be doing the same thing.

I've gone to Bible-teaching churches all my life as well as a couple of years in Bible college.

And there Are those who believe that if a person digs Deep enough that they will agree with 'them' no matter What the subject.

 

[B-A-C]

@B-A-C -- so you don't believe in eternal security?
What about Ephesians 1: 13 - 14 "........ in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in us gives us new desires -- we aren't captive to sinfulness as we had been previously.

I definitely do not. Most denominations do not. This is mostly a Calvinist/Baptist belief. Virtually no Pentecostal churches believe this.
I don't think that verse says what you think it does, but that's another topic for another thread.
As far as the Holy Spirit changing our desires, that is part of it. Part of changing our desires is also love for Jesus. (we love because He first loved us)
and I agree with this statement the way you have it worded.
However, have you ever sinned since you became a Christian? I know I have. I'm not perfect.
But everytime I sin, I'm resisting the Holy Spirit. ( Acts 7:51; ) Some "Christians" resist the Holy Spirit a lot more than they listen to the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit doesn't "force" us not to sin.

I agree with you, we aren't "captive" or slaves to the sinful nature anymore. But yet many Christians choose to go back to that lifestyle.
Some even believe they are still Christians while they are living this way.

 

[B-A-C]

I've gone to Bible-teaching churches all my life as well as a couple of years in Bible college.

And there Are those who believe that if a person digs Deep enough that they will agree with 'them' no matter What the subject.

Haven't we all? And yet, despite this... we don't agree on everything.

As for your second comment, point taken. I generally like to take scripture at face value, for the most part I am a fundamentalist.
I have posts here on Talkjesus that are hundreds of lines long with commentary about one single verse. Some of it gets pretty
far out there... this verse mean this because butterflies lay eggs in Istanbul when the temperature is over 65 degrees.

I try to do just the opposite (not always to be sure) but generally I do topical studies.
I find an idea I am trying to express, and then post a lot of scripture to support that idea.

If a post has more commentary than scripture, I am leary of it.
We even have some people here on TalkJesus that post entire threads without a single verse.
Sometimes it's half verses taken out of context. Either way... it's not the full gospel.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C -- so you don't believe in eternal security?
What about Ephesians 1: 13 - 14 "........ in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

The Holy Spirit coming to dwell in us gives us new desires -- we aren't captive to sinfulness as we had been previously.

Sue, eternal security is true. You have been taught correctly.

It is not just Calvinists and Baptists that believe it.

God does not make the mistake of grafting devils into His family just as He does not make the mistake of removing saints from His family. God is not a fool. Fullstop.

We tend to be the fools, thinking we are saved when we are not. That is the context of almost every one of the 'hundred' verses from Paul.

 

[Sue D.]

I"ve been a conservative , independent Baptist all my life.

We will always sin to some extent. But the Holy Spirit lets us know when we have.

Well -- we will Always belong to our earthly parents no matter what we do, We welcome them back when they've gone and messed up. And God does take people 'early' when they've gotten into so much sinfulness that they do more harm than good in this life. There were some former drug addicts at a church we'd gone to years ago. They were out of the drug culture and trying to help others out of it. One guy had a heart attack -- well --his heart pretty much exploded because of the damage. But that's not really the same thing.

There are those who struggle with certain kinds of sinfulness even after becoming born-again. And with others -- the Holy Spirit completely takes a certain thing out of their lives -- like the lame man being able to walk all of a sudden. Or the blind man seeing.

I struggle with 'stuff' and the Holy Spirit lets me know and we have conversations every so often about it.

But it's like our kids -- some kids are fairly easy to deal with -- a dirty look from a parent and they feel horrible and are repentant. Others in the same family -- a dirty look doesn't penetrate. Harsher methods have to be put in place. They are hard to deal with as teens and eventually Do get to being reachable. There was a young lady -- well a gal that I got to know a little in college. She said she'd been hard to handle growing up -- as a teen was hard on herself and everyone around her.
Finally in college -- a Bible college -- her parents / pastor sent her there. She finally started 'turning around'. Back then -- lots of parents used a local Bible college as sort of a reform school. It was a controlled environment with dorm parents and some of those students were on acedemic probation a lot of the time. And some were very smart and blossomed. And as good a home and church that they came from -- they needed that time away From home and church to mature more.

 

[B-A-C]

We will always sin to some extent. But the Holy Spirit lets us know when we have.

I'm not sure that we do have to always sin. Where does the Bible say that?
Your statement.. "But the Holy Spirit lets us know when we have". What does that mean?
I am not being facitious here, I am sincerely asking.

OK, the Holy Spirit tells you that you sinned. That's it? End of story?
Tomorrow or next week lets do it all again.. and again.. and again.
You believe you can keep living in sin and be saved?

 

[Sue D.]

Haven't we all? And yet, despite this... we don't agree on everything.

As for your second comment, point taken. I generally like to take scripture at face value, for the most part I am a fundamentalist.
I have posts here on Talkjesus that are hundreds of lines long with commentary about one single verse. Some of it gets pretty
far out there... this verse mean this because butterflies lay eggs in Istanbul when the temperature is over 65 degrees.

I try to do just the opposite (not always to be sure) but generally I do topical studies.
I find an idea I am trying to express, and then post a lot of scripture to support that idea.

If a post has more commentary than scripture, I am leary of it.
We even have some people here on TalkJesus that post entire threads without a single verse.
Sometimes it's half verses taken out of context. Either way... it's not the full gospel.

Well -- I've thought about that , too. We can read the same material and come up with different conclusions. Maybe that's because God has made us individuals. Not puppets. The important aspect -- the Most important is that of our salvation. It's So easy to want to mix good works into salvation.

Look back at the garden of Eden -- Adam and Eve. They were given One way to do a certain thing. But yet satan got into the mix and messed them up. Same thing with salvation -- God makes it So Simple and yet satan gets into our heads and says 'this one other thing' will assure us that God's way will work Better.

And there Are things that we Should be doing to identify us to those around us as being born again. Baptism being one of those things. And there Are a couple of verses that would support that. But -- what about those who accept Christ and don't have a chance To be baptised. There was a young lady who'd come to our church with her grandparents. She was saved during VBS and wanted to be baptized. Her parents were Lutheran and she'd been sprinkled and as far as her parents were concerned baptism by immersion wasn't necessary. They told her that when she turned 18 -- if she still wanted to -- that was her choice. They also moved her away from the influence of her grandparents. Kind of sad. But she was really a born again believer.

 

[KingJ]

You believe you can keep living in sin and be saved?

Yes, definitely.

It is all about the heart condition. Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

Remember, in Hades there was a separation of sinners. Sinners on the left did not, could not, wanted not to, repent. Sinners on the right in Abraham's Bosom, did repent.

As only God is perfectly good mark 10:18, we are not. We judge angels in heaven 1 Cor 6:3, because they sin. The devil has been sinning from the beginning 1 John 3:8, but was only removed when he committed mortal type sins.

If we lose our ability to disobey God / sin, we lose free will. Free will is a gift from a good God. The moment free will dies, God is wicked.

As God is perfectly good, all disobedience to Him fulfills both definitions of disobedience and evil, IE disobedience to God is always sin.

We will 'NEVER' be perfectly obedient to God. God doesn't expect us to.

 

[KingJ]

Move these posts to a new thread BAC, excellent topic.

 

[Sue D.]

I'm not sure that we do have to always sin. Where does the Bible say that?
Your statement.. "But the Holy Spirit lets us know when we have". What does that mean?
I am not being facitious here, I am sincerely asking.

OK, the Holy Spirit tells you that you sinned. That's it? End of story?
Tomorrow or next week lets do it all again.. and again.. and again.
You believe you can keep living in sin and be saved?

These posts are getting a bit out of order.
Well -- we're born with the propensity For sinning. Some of us are able to live fairly good lives as born again believers.

The Holy Spirit's convicting power that led us to realize our need for salvation in the 1st place. That will be letting us know -- that inner thing -- maybe what we're trying to rationalize inwardly.
There's a certain thing I struggle with -- I 'give in to it' and then realize I shouldn't -- and then someone says is God sufficient to take care of all our needs or Isn't He. Well -- yes, He is. Then why don't I let Him. And then I ask -- How is He supposed to be taking care of THAT. And then "let go and let God ' and then I ask and How does a person DO that 'letting go of 'it' and letting God 'do it'. I'm just an ordinary born again believer -- not some super spiritual person who gets all these wonderful 'cure all'.

I got side-tracked.

There's a difference between Living In sin and sinning once in a while. I live alone so I don't have another person around to redirect me -- I think it would be easier to have an accountability person which I don't.

You're suggesting achieving perfection as a believer? Maybe some people come close to it. I can appear to live a fairly decent life but God and myself are the only one's who know what's going on in my brain.

I'm Supposed to be turning Away From that sin. And that's where the rationalizing can come into the picture. And satan gets into the picture and says its' not really all That bad. And every so often we'll get a wake-up call of some sort.

The Holy Spirit is still working through one medium or another to get our attention again.

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

It does make sense to me, yes. Though I cannot begin to explain my reason for saying so, for the whole act of creation and what followed would have to be taken into consideration.

Complete, you actually need to. Not sure how you are not aware of the fact that you believe God is partial and wicked.

Cherry picking three wicked for eternal torture in fire is partiality and wickedness on par with Stalin, Himmler, Hitler, Ivan the terrible and Saddam Hussein.

It does not seem unfair to me,

I don't feel you have thought about this. Would you cherry pick three prisoners and place them in a brazen bull for all eternity. That seems unfair to me and I am pretty sure every person on this planet with more then half a working brain.

no, because I know that God is Just,

This just makes me so irritated. You say ''He is just'' but portray Him at the height of wickedness.

''This guy just raped me, but I am sure he meant well, his t-shirt says black lives matter''.

and that He will have dealt with each individual justly, so that whosoever receives that judgment has received it justifiably, on the basis of their works, by God, who knows the secrets of men's hearts.

Knowing the secrets of men's hearts is not grounds for punishing them. Actions are grounds.

There is a world of difference between thought, intent and actual action. Rom 2:6 is crystal clear that each are rewarding according to what they actually did.

Consider Matt 5:28 where Jesus says the thought of adultery is a sin, but then in Matt 5:32 He clarifies that only actual adultery is grounds for divorce.

The benefit God has in knowing hearts is that He can know if someone will ever desire true repentance. That is it.

Just judgmenent rewards according to '''actual''' deeds, not, thoughts. Imagine God did that with us.

As such, a judgement of annihilation for two sinners, where one stole candy from the candy store and another was a serial rapist is terribly unjust and the height of it.

So in essence you teach the lost that God is partial, wicked and unjust.

What would be worse, to me, would be if mankind who were so judged, were made to suffer eternal conscious punishment, with no hope of reprieve. Oblivion is the kinder outcome.

Yes, one minute of torture is worse then annihilation, agreed. Every person on this planet with a working brain will agree.

How is it that you can see the light of that fact and not the matters I raise above?

We need to re-visit our understanding of God and hell. Before we say one word about hell, we need to ''fully'' grasp that God is righteous in all His ways.

One minute of torture is wicked. Repaying evil with evil is wicked. God is not wicked. I like 1 John 1:5, it says God is light with no darkness in Him at all.

As such, hell has to be seen as a prison that a good person has created. You cannot mix those sold-out to sin with those who hate it and repent. They have to be separated. This does not mean you need to torture or annihilate them.

When God explained the earth to Adam after he sinned, God mentioned a handful of terrors that awaited him. But we know that he was able to endure these and we know that earth has many many pleasantries that God did not mention. God did not bother mention exotic beaches to Adam in scripture as ''pleasantries'' from a good God, should be a given. Many Christians just either don't know God or have not applied their minds to what they teach about Him.

 

[twcstp111]

Sue, eternal security is true. You have been taught correctly.

It is not just Calvinists and Baptists that believe it.

God does not make the mistake of grafting devils into His family just as He does not make the mistake of removing saints from His family. God is not a fool. Fullstop.

We tend to be the fools, thinking we are saved when we are not. That is the context of almost every one of the 'hundred' verses from Paul.

What does it matter if I am saved or not, if I can sit beside you, break bread, bless it, and share it?