Heaven after hell?

[The Kreisel]

@The Kreisel -- so now you are bringing predestination into the conversation. Your point is........?

Yeah, GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, brought predestination into the mix.
Ephesians 1:10-11 is crystal clear - what exactly is your question?

 

[Garee]

None of the verses below are my interpretation.

Rev 20:10;
(AMPC) Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).
(ASV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(BBE) And the Evil One who put them in error was sent down into the sea of ever-burning fire, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their punishment will go on day and night for ever and ever.
(CEV) Then the devil who fooled them will be thrown into the lake of fire and burning sulfur. He will be there with the beast and the false prophet, and they will be in pain day and night forever and ever.
(CSB) The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(ESV) and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(GNB) Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(Greek NT TR+) καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM διαβολοςG1228 A-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πλανωνG4105 V-PAP-NSM αυτουςG846 P-APM εβληθηG906 V-API-3S ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF λιμνηνG3041 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSN πυροςG4442 N-GSN καιG2532 CONJ θειουG2303 N-GSN οπουG3699 ADV τοG3588 T-NSN θηριονG2342 N-NSN καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM ψευδοπροφητηςG5578 N-NSM καιG2532 CONJ βασανισθησονταιG928 V-FPI-3P ημεραςG2250 N-GSF καιG2532 CONJ νυκτοςG3571 N-GSF ειςG1519 PREP τουςG3588 T-APM αιωναςG165 N-APM τωνG3588 T-GPM αιωνωνG165 N-GPM
(GW) The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
(HCSB) The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(ISV) and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
(KJV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(KJVA) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(MKJV) And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(MSG) The Devil who deceived them will be hurled into Lake Fire and Brimstone, joining the Beast and False Prophet, the three in torment around the clock for ages without end.
(NAS77) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(NASB) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(NIrV) The devil, who fooled them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur. That is where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will all suffer day and night for ever and ever.
(NIV) And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(NKJV) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(NLT) Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(RV) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(TPT) Then the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the same place with the wild beast and the false prophet—the lake of fire and sulfur—where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25; "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

The wrath of God will not satisfied until every sin is paid for, one way or another.

Isa 53:4; Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:10; But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
Isa 53:11; As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Jesus can pay for you... or you will have to pay. But you will sit in hell until someone pays.

Sit in hell without a Spirit as dust in the wind?

The gospel is not the same as Greek mythology; "a Phoenix rising from spiritless ashes" . We simply do not know Christ who is not a man as us after corrupted lifeless dust. . .Jesus said not as I will but as the unsen Father that worked in him willed . The kind of spiritual food the disciples knew not of..Therefore not mixing faith in what they did see or hear.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 King James Version (KJV) Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

If a person has freely received a new born gain spirit his spirit will rise and be clothed with rudiments not of the corrupted dying creation suffering the wage of sin (hell) the first death. We do not know Christ after Greek mythology as oral tradition of men.

In that way God will not be found in a sceince laboratory under a microscope or telescope or in Philosophy 101.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Those who will rise on the last day (Hebrew11:40) even today they are reciving to end of the faith of Christ who works in us with us.There burden is made lighter yoked with Christ and along with a promise of a new incorutible body . . we have a solid anchor in Him

There is no reason to believe the breath of life goes onafter one takes theirt last breath of oxygen . It from that kind of doctrine that doctrines like purgatory the doctrine of wondering is born . It does despite to the grace of Christ the God of mercy, Not the God of vengance with no end in sight .

 

[KingJ]

KingJ -- it's your general attitude -- you're attempt at down-playing the subject of hell. That it won't really be all that bad and won't last forever.

This tells me you don't properly read my posts Sue. Hell is bad and it will last forever. We all have different interpretations of how bad a place is though.

To you, a bad place is a torture chamber that the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Ivan the terrible, Saddam Hussein and Himmler would see as appropriate punishment. You want me to add your name to that list? You get upset with me because I won't add God's name?

If you had to ask Adam and Eve to compare the current earth to their prior paradise, he would say earth is ''terrible''.

I don't downplay, I quote and interpret scripture properly. The fact that people weep and gnash their teeth because of separation and not fire Luke 13:28 needs to sink in.

And horrors be to the person who portrays it as horrible. And that That is making God seem like some horrible monster who'd 'torture people forever' . You've found some passages that say God is good. And , you, in turn have suggested that I'm some horrible person for my portrayal of God.

Yes and I am correct. In no universe, in no time-zone will one guilty of torture EVER be judged as ''good'' by anyone with more then two working brain cells. Fact.

Go and place your hand on a fire. Do this for five minutes. Then come and apologise to me and all you have miss-taught. You owe a really big apology to God for miss-representing Him to the lost.

 

[KingJ]

While God Is good -- He is Holy and is Just. He 'would' that All would come to a saving knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ. .

There is nothing Holy and just about eternal torture. Go place your bum on a fire for five minutes and you will agree with me.

But -- because He is omniscient -- He is the Only one who knows who will or won't accept His gift of salvation

You define the A-Z of God off of the word omniscience? That has to be the height of foolishness.

God is good and omniscient. His omniscience is restricted by His goodness. If knowing something can be proven to be evil, He does not know it. This is the case with foreknowledge of who will and won't accept Him.

No prophet grasped God fully. They had revelation after revelation of God. But you, you grasp Him fully. Where does He come from? How did He come into existence?

Literally everything He has done to us / for us shouts true free will and limited omniscience.

He limits His omnipotence to allow for evil, something He utterly hates, to take place as free will is good. Why would He not do the same with His omniscience?

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- there Is one way to avoid having to deal with how bad or not that hell / lake of fire and brimstone will be.

Simply follow God's way to stay out of there.

And as far as you're concerned You are right and I'm wrong.

Well -- I and everyone else who wants to Can know For certain that he / she will be in heaven for eternity and not end up having to spend eternity in hell.

Your concept of God is limiting Him As God -- which, in fact, sounds and Is ridiculous.

 

[The Kreisel]

There is nothing Holy and just about eternal torture. Go place your bum on a fire for five minutes and you will agree with me.



You define the A-Z of God off of the word omniscience? That has to be the height of foolishness.

God is good and omniscient. His omniscience is restricted by His goodness. If knowing something can be proven to be evil, He does not know it. This is the case with foreknowledge of who will and won't accept Him.

No prophet grasped God fully. They had revelation after revelation of God. But you, you grasp Him fully. Where does He come from? How did He come into existence?

Literally everything He has done to us / for us shouts true free will and limited omniscience.

He limits His omnipotence to allow for evil, something He utterly hates, to take place as free will is good. Why would He not do the same with His omniscience?

t

Did you know the name "Hell" came from the paganism of Norse Mythology?
The translators placed the pagan name on Hades and Gehenna in the New Testament, which are two entirely different dynamics - especially when applying the spiritual interpretation.

People like Sue don't like the many verses in the Bible like Romans 11:36 - "For out of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS".

 

[Sue D.]

Yeah, GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE, brought predestination into the mix.
Ephesians 1:10-11 is crystal clear - what exactly is your question?

@The Kreisel -- you introduced predestination into the conversation. And yes, that Scripture is very much part of Scripture. I haven't Had a question. Simply been responding back to Your comments.

And, yes, God Is the creator of the universe.

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- there Is one way to avoid having to deal with how bad or not that hell / lake of fire and brimstone will be.

Sue, we are God's ambassadors on earth. That you are going to heaven is a non-issue to what God has tasked you to do 2 Cor 5:20.

Now, we should all agree with the prophets that God is good Psalm 136:1, loving 1 John 4:7 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

So, if ''any'' of us teach otherwise on any topic, whether from pride or naivety, we ought to conclude we don't yet grasp the full picture, repent and keep quiet. You, nor I want to be guilty of miss-representing a God who gave His life for all. Imagine how that will go down when face to face with Him.

I have thoroughly studied the topic of hell. There is no scripture you can quote that I have not yet heard. I can teach with confidence because I see God's goodness shine through His wrath and punishment.

And as far as you're concerned You are right and I'm wrong.

I have asked you many questions and made many facts that you ignore. Tell me, if judgement day is still coming for the wicked, why was the rich man burning in fire? If the rich man was burning with the same kind of fire we have here on earth, why did he ask for a drop of water on his tongue and not a bucket load? I always believed and was told that people weeped and gnashed their teeth from torture and fire. Why can't you accept Luke 13:28 that teaches us that their torment that causes the weeping and gnashing of teeth is from being cast out? If God is good, why can't you accept that He support rules and regulations for the treatment of His enemy that will co-incide with, perhaps even improve on the Geneva convention?

Why, why, why, do you constantly teach God is wicked, but lucky you, you have His approval and will be in heaven, not having to live with His cruel and demented side. Do you think any lost person on this planet wants to serve a wicked God? The appeal of Jesus, the appeal of God is that He ''IS'' Good. Psalm 136:1 Note how David says ''give thanks because He is good''. As a Christian you should know better or at least know when to say nothing for fear of miss-representing God.

 

[The Kreisel]

Sue, we are God's ambassadors on earth. That you are going to heaven is a non-issue to what God has tasked you to do 2 Cor 5:20.

Now, we should all agree with the prophets that God is good Psalm 136:1, loving 1 John 4:7 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

So, if ''any'' of us teach otherwise on any topic, whether from pride or naivety, we ought to conclude we don't yet grasp the full picture, repent and keep quiet. You, nor I want to be guilty of miss-representing a God who gave His life for all. Imagine how that will go down when face to face with Him.

I have thoroughly studied the topic of hell. There is no scripture you can quote that I have not yet heard. I can teach with confidence because I see God's goodness shine through His wrath and punishment.

I have asked you many questions and made many facts that you ignore. Tell me, if judgement day is still coming for the wicked, why was the rich man burning in fire? If the rich man was burning with the same kind of fire we have here on earth, why did he ask for a drop of water on his tongue and not a bucket load? I always believed and was told that people weeped and gnashed their teeth from torture and fire. Why can't you accept Luke 13:28 that teaches us that their torment that causes the weeping and gnashing of teeth is from being cast out? If God is good, why can't you accept that He support rules and regulations for the treatment of His enemy that will co-incide with, perhaps even improve on the Geneva convention?

Why, why, why, do you constantly teach God is wicked, but lucky you, you have His approval and will be in heaven, not having to live with His cruel and demented side. Do you think any lost person on this planet wants to serve a wicked God? The appeal of Jesus, the appeal of God is that He ''IS'' Good. Psalm 136:1 Note how David says ''give thanks because He is good''. As a Christian you should know better or at least know when to say nothing for fear of miss-representing God.

@KingJ
I hope you don't mind my intrusion.
I ask this question all the time to christians and have never been given a straight response.
You mentioned you've thoroughly studied the topic of 'Hell' - let me ask you -
Are you Inside or Outside the "Gates of Hell" (Hades)? as stated in Matthew 16:18

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ
I hope you don't mind my intrusion.
I ask this question all the time to christians and have never been given a straight response.
You mentioned you've thoroughly studied the topic of 'Hell' - let me ask you -
Are you Inside or Outside the "Gates of Hell" (Hades)? as stated in Matthew 16:18

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is a powerful verse. It speaks to God's protection of His people / the success of the church of Christ. He honors Peter above the other disciples, but Peter is not the rock. The message of Jesus that Peter taught was the chosen message.

I know that many Calvinists love this verse. It is interpreted by them as evidence that God has His elect. ''My church'' will survive and be protected. But this is not the case. You have to ''read into'' the verse to arrive at that. When Jesus says ''my'' He is referring to the whomsoever will come. Those who do, will be protected. Jesus makes this fact crystal clear in verse 25 Matt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

For me the phrase '' the gates of hell'' is interesting. You are correct that it is Hades. Hell is a word that is used for both Hades and the lake of fire. It is an ambiguous word.

When Jesus says '' Gates of hell'' He infers two facts. 1. People in His church will have power over sin. Their sin will not suck them into hell. 2. His church will survive despite what those who rule over hell (the devil and fallen angels) throw at them.

One more fact to consider is that when Jesus died. He went to Hades and took all those in Abrahams bosom to heaven. He is the rock, the gates of hell do not prevail against Him.

 

[The Kreisel]

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is a powerful verse. It speaks to God's protection of His people / the success of the church of Christ. He honors Peter above the other disciples, but Peter is not the rock. The message of Jesus that Peter taught was the chosen message.

I know that many Calvinists love this verse. It is interpreted by them as evidence that God has His elect. ''My church'' will survive and be protected. But this is not the case. You have to ''read into'' the verse to arrive at that. When Jesus says ''my'' He is referring to the whomsoever will come. Those who do, will be protected. Jesus makes this fact crystal clear in verse 25 Matt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

For me the phrase '' the gates of hell'' is interesting. You are correct that it is Hades. Hell is a word that is used for both Hades and the lake of fire. It is an ambiguous word.

When Jesus says '' Gates of hell'' He infers two facts. 1. People in His church will have power over sin. Their sin will not suck them into hell. 2. His church will survive despite what those who rule over hell (the devil and fallen angels) throw at them.

One more fact to consider is that when Jesus died. He went to Hades and took all those in Abrahams bosom to heaven. He is the rock, the gates of hell do not prevail against Him.

You did not answer my question - Are YOU inside OR outside the "Gates of Hell"?

And IT IS NOT a word used for the Lake of Fire -
Rev 20:14 states "And death and hell (hades) SHALL BE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".


Back to the drawing board.

 

[The Kreisel]

Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is a powerful verse. It speaks to God's protection of His people / the success of the church of Christ. He honors Peter above the other disciples, but Peter is not the rock. The message of Jesus that Peter taught was the chosen message.

I know that many Calvinists love this verse. It is interpreted by them as evidence that God has His elect. ''My church'' will survive and be protected. But this is not the case. You have to ''read into'' the verse to arrive at that. When Jesus says ''my'' He is referring to the whomsoever will come. Those who do, will be protected. Jesus makes this fact crystal clear in verse 25 Matt 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

For me the phrase '' the gates of hell'' is interesting. You are correct that it is Hades. Hell is a word that is used for both Hades and the lake of fire. It is an ambiguous word.

When Jesus says '' Gates of hell'' He infers two facts. 1. People in His church will have power over sin. Their sin will not suck them into hell. 2. His church will survive despite what those who rule over hell (the devil and fallen angels) throw at them.

One more fact to consider is that when Jesus died. He went to Hades and took all those in Abrahams bosom to heaven. He is the rock, the gates of hell do not prevail against Him.

Also, the Bible NEVER states what you wrote - "One more fact to consider is that when Jesus died. He went to Hades and took all those in Abrahams bosom to heaven. He is the rock, the gates of hell do not prevail against Him".

What I Peter 3:18-19 states is
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

[The Kreisel]

If people are in hell for eternity, why would they get out on Judgement Day only to be recast into hell? Could some of them have learned their lesson or been punished enough and be judged differently? Maybe they just fell short and have served their time?

How can people be in Hell for eternity when Romans 11:36 states, "For out of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS"?

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- you Do quote Scripture but your application / interpretation is usually Way off. You apparently think that as long as you are KingJ or use that version of God's Word that you can use and apply it any way that you want and You will Always be interpreting it correctly -- YOU are not my Bible. God's Word Is.

@The Kriesel -- do Not tell me or anyone else what I believe

And the two of you can continue with your discussion.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If people are in hell for eternity, why would they get out on Judgement Day only to be recast into hell? Could some of them have learned their lesson or been punished enough and be judged differently? Maybe they just fell short and have served their time?

They aren't. They're raised from Hell, CONVICTED, and tossed into the Lake of fire for eternity. There's NO "Purgatory" to "Purify", and NO salvation after physical death - period.

 

[The Kreisel]

They aren't. They're raised from Hell, CONVICTED, and tossed into the Lake of fire for eternity. There's NO "Purgatory" to "Purify", and NO salvation after physical death - period.

Wrong.
Romans 11:36 "For out of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS"

 

[The Kreisel]

@KingJ -- you Do quote Scripture but your application / interpretation is usually Way off. You apparently think that as long as you are KingJ or use that version of God's Word that you can use and apply it any way that you want and You will Always be interpreting it correctly -- YOU are not my Bible. God's Word Is.

@The Kriesel -- do Not tell me or anyone else what I believe

And the two of you can continue with your discussion.

I know you don't believe Jesus will make ALL THINGS NEW - Rev 21:5
That "Out of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS" - Romans 11:36
That "He has counted all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on ALL" - Roman 11:32

 

[Sue D.]

@The Kreisel -- I'm going to correct you -- again -- Do NOT put words in my mouth -- telling me what I believe -- Because I certainly Do believe that God Will make all things new in the End. Revelation 21:1-3 or so.

John is being shown in a series of visions given to him while he was on the Island of Patmos of what Had been and what was to come in the future. " Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, Also there was no more sea, vs 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with then, and they shall be His people. God , Himself will be with them and be their God.

vs 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.

vs 5 "Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new," And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

You're using Romans 11: 36 again -- try using it in context.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Wrong.
Romans 11:36 "For out of him and through him and to him are ALL THINGS"

Which has nothing to do whatsoever with the issue being discussed. Essentially a Non-Answer.

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- you Do quote Scripture but your application / interpretation is usually Way off. You apparently think that as long as you are KingJ or use that version of God's Word that you can use and apply it any way that you want and You will Always be interpreting it correctly -- YOU are not my Bible. God's Word Is.

You defend your beliefs with opiniated statements and not scripture.

You teach that God is at the height of wickedness and do not defend your position. If you were in my church, you would not be allowed to stand at the pulpit and teach, I can promise you that.

Anyone who can't properly represent God of the bible truthfully to the lost as good, loving, kind and righteous in all His ways is in danger of judgement day with a God who died for the lost.