Heaven and Hell

[NoHype]

My post

I am the Universalist here that BAC speaks of , thus I asked you to pitch in with whatever support you may feel inclined to share.

My main verses are Romans 5:18 and 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Tim 4:9-11 though there are many many more.

Allow me to comment on those Scriptures too.

1. Romans 5:18, you have to include the next verse 19 that goes with it...

Rom 5:18-19
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (Greek polus, NT:4183) be made righteous.
KJV

It doesn't mean "all" in the Greek, it literally means "many", or a great number. That reveals that receiving Christ's Salvation is matter of one's choice, and not just automatic, and that not all will choose to receive it. It is available for everyone that will believe, but not everyone will choose to believe.

2. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 ... to kind of summarize what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, death will be swallowed up in victory for all souls on the day of Christ's return, including the wicked, but not automatic Salvation unto eternal life which only is given by belief on Jesus Christ. Many are not aware that Paul spoke of 2 types of changes that must happen to receive Christ's Salvation. Just the change to the "spiritual body" is not the only thing required.

1 Cor 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
KJV

You are correct that above Scripture is meant 'universally' for all men, but in the above Paul was not pointing to both operations he mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Many brethren are not aware that on the day of Christ's coming, that 'change' on the "last trump" Paul mentioned will happen for all peoples still alive on earth, including the wicked. But it is only ONE CHANGE that is required to receive eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

In other words, the "spiritual body", the body of the world to come, can still perish in the future "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign (called the "second death"). One's soul must ALSO 'put on immortality' in Christ Jesus to have Christ's Salvation unto eternal life.

Most Churches teach that 'change' of 1 Cor.15:51 is only for those in Christ Jesus. They aren't aware of the Isaiah 25 Scripture which points to everyone alive on earth being changed on that day.

1 Cor 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

That 1 Cor.15:53 verse has 4 different Greek meanings for each one of those 4 ideas. The wicked only will be changed to the body of "incorruption" (to the 'spiritual body' type). But their 'souls' ("this mortal") will still be in a LIABLE TO DIE condition, being without Faith on Jesus Christ.

But for those in Christ, we will be changed both to the body of incorruption (spiritual body), AND our souls ("this mortal") will "put on immortality" through Jesus Christ, and never be subject to the "second death".

So in essence, that means the wicked still... have to believe on Jesus Christ to have eternal life. Otherwise, even in that future 'spiritual body' type, they will still be able to perish at the "second death". And we know by what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that there will even be a resurrection of the wicked too into that future 'spiritual body' type when Jesus comes. Jesus called them the "resurrection of damnation" there. And the idea of 'resurrection' means being raised to the body of "incorruption", which Paul taught is the "spiritual body" type.


3. 1 Timothy 4:9-11...

1 Tim 4:10
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
KJV

That "specially of those that believe" actually means 'particularly, those that believe'. It sets the 'condition' of belief in order for all to be saved.

 

[Samson2020]

Allow me to comment on those Scriptures too.

1. Romans 5:18, you have to include the next verse 19 that goes with it...

Rom 5:18-19
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (Greek polus, NT:4183) be made righteous.
KJV

It doesn't mean "all" in the Greek, it literally means "many", or a great number. That reveals that receiving Christ's Salvation is matter of one's choice, and not just automatic, and that not all will choose to receive it. It is available for everyone that will believe, but not everyone will choose to believe.

2. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 ... to kind of summarize what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, death will be swallowed up in victory for all souls on the day of Christ's return, including the wicked, but not automatic Salvation unto eternal life which only is given by belief on Jesus Christ. Many are not aware that Paul spoke of 2 types of changes that must happen to receive Christ's Salvation. Just the change to the "spiritual body" is not the only thing required.

1 Cor 15:21-23
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
KJV

Many brethren are not aware that on the day of Christ's coming, that 'change' on the "last trump" Paul mentioned will happen for all peoples still alive on earth, including the wicked.

You are correct that above Scripture is meant 'universally' for all men, but in the above Paul was not pointing to both operations he mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

Many brethren are not aware that on the day of Christ's coming, that 'change' on the "last trump" Paul mentioned will happen for all peoples still alive on earth, including the wicked. But it is only ONE CHANGE that is required to receive eternal Life in Jesus Christ.

In other words, the "spiritual body", the body of the world to come, can still perish in the future "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign (called the "second death"). One's soul must ALSO 'put on immortality' in Christ Jesus to have Christ's Salvation unto eternal life.

Most Churches teach that 'change' of 1 Cor.15:51 is only for those in Christ Jesus. They aren't aware of the Isaiah 25 Scripture which points to everyone alive on earth being changed on that day.

1 Cor 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

That 1 Cor.15:53 verse has 4 different Greek meanings for each one of those 4 ideas. The wicked only will be changed to the body of "incorruption" (to the 'spiritual body' type). But their 'souls' ("this mortal") will still be in a LIABLE TO DIE condition, being without Faith on Jesus Christ.

But for those in Christ, we will be changed both to the body of incorruption (spiritual body), AND our souls ("this mortal") will "put on immortality" through Jesus Christ, and never be subject to the "second death".

So in essence, that means the wicked still... have to believe on Jesus Christ to have eternal life. Otherwise, even in that future 'spiritual body' type, they will still be able to perish at the "second death". And we know by what Jesus said in John 5:28-29 that there will even be a resurrection of the wicked too into that future 'spiritual body' type when Jesus comes. Jesus called them the "resurrection of damnation" there. And the idea of 'resurrection' means being raised to the body of "incorruption", which Paul taught is the "spiritual body" type.


3. 1 Timothy 4:9-11...

1 Tim 4:10
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
KJV

That "specially of those that believe" actually means 'particularly, those that believe'. It sets the 'condition' of belief in order for all to be saved.

I thought I stretched stuff a bit even for myself at times, but wow!!!
The especially those that believe simply implies THEY already know that salvation has been given to them, the rest do not.
If Paul has Timothy to command and teach that God is the Saviour of ALL men, it is a statement that in order to be true requires the salvation of ALL.
Otherwise it would say God wishes to save all men but can't because of OUR CHOICES, REALLY? We gonna override God because we know best?

Many brethren are not aware that on the day of Christ's coming, that 'change' on the "last trump" Paul mentioned will happen for all peoples still alive on earth, including the wicked.

Don't think your gonna be able to sell that here.

But for those in Christ, we will be changed both to the body of incorruption (spiritual body), AND our souls ("this mortal") will "put on immortality" through Jesus Christ, and never be subject to the "second death".

No problem with this. Its your understanding of the need for the second death, and what it produces that leaves you out of the total picture.

So in essence, that means the wicked still... have to believe on Jesus Christ to have eternal life.

Indeed, and they will, whenever the Father calls them in the second death TIME or after, I cannot see past that.
The first group is called the first fruits unto God and the Lamb. But in any harvest there are multiple harvests. The first fruits then the general(biggest)
and the latter of those that grow up the slowest, and whether we talk physical crops or spiritual crops, its all in Gods timing.

We are made to be kings and priests unto God, but for what purpose? Is not our High priest an intercessor for the people? Who shall we be intercessors
for?

John 5:28-29 that there will even be a resurrection of the wicked too into that future 'spiritual body' type when Jesus comes. Jesus called them the "resurrection of damnation" there. And the idea of 'resurrection' means being raised to the body of "incorruption", which Paul taught is the "spiritual body" type.

Not gonna sell that one either. The spiritual body is the incorruptible body, thus the wicked cannot qualify for that. They have not been processed to
receive that reward yet. They have overcome nothing for they never got started.

Romans 9:16 makes it clear that it doesn't matter who wills, runs, chooses etc...... it is up to God to elect and Rom 9:18- to have mercy on whom
He will have mercy, and whom He wills He hardeneth.

Why does He harden most on the planet today? Because it creates the environment that perfects our faith, the first fruits group.
Is their being hardened by the choice of God their fault? No.

Eph 1:4 According as He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world..............5- having predestinated us unto the adoption of children.........
What choice did we make here? Or was it always His choice?
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His will that He hath PURPOSED WITHIN HIMSELF.
Again who makes the decisions?
My God did not start this plan with the intention of creating anything that would not increase His glory and provide all of us with a greater position
in the kingdom than what we had prior to being dipped into this world of good and evil. Everything was by design.
You don't condemn ALL to sin and death, because of what ONE MISTAKE THAT ONE MAN MADE, who was outwitted by a crafty foe. God knows the end before He started, could He not have destroyed the serpent prior to the disobedience? Sure but He did not for it was a planned thing.
Without the fall there would never be a reason for Jesus to be the propitiation for the sin of the world. And it was that righteous act that provided
justification for ALL. Both sentences were decrees of the Father, The first condemnation, the second justification unto life for ALL.
The scenario you paint makes Gods plan an almost total failure, but He will not fail at anything for He promised eternal life to us before the world was formed.
Titus 1:2
God is a just God and He would not, could not harden the hearts, shut the eyes, and ears of men then torture them for eternity in a like of fire. Wheres
the justice in that?
Just because you do not understand His ways do not jump to condemning those who have not yet received faith through His having mercy on them.
1 Co 4:7

I've said enough here but know this, If a disciple of Christ has not earned the right to the HIDDEN MANNA then He will never see past where He is,
It will only be given Him to see when He has overcome those things written in Rev 2:14-17
Have you seen the white stone with your new name written on it?

 

[Samson2020]

But He does not always give Grace to everybody, That judgement belongs to Him, there is a lot we do not know that He knows
like the heart of a person, all the secrets hidden in the heart of a person. And He knows the future.

I'm not sure if your talking down to me is on purpose or thats just how you communicate, either way no offense taken but try to not do so much
dancing with words and ideas and put the meat on the table please. You will find the longer posts are, the less they're read, just a heads up.

Of course He knows the future for He scripted it.

He knows the heart of a person for He is the one who either made it a heart of flesh or hardened it to stone. Pharoah

Gods grace is not shed to everyone at this time for He is only concerned with maturing the first small group of sons. The Mystery of Iniquity.
The rest will come after the 1000 yrs has ended.

If He were to shed grace on all now then sin would not be as prevalent, as all would be born again and the process that requires sin against you to be
forgiven so that you could become more like your Father would slow the process.
Is this the sinners fault? NO
When Jesus was sacrificed did He not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."? But at the same time it was the will and plan
of God that they crucify His Son. The cup Jesus was to drink that God had given Him.

Jesus learned obedience to the Father by the things He suffered and "having learned obedience became the author of eternal salvation to all
them that obey Him." Heb 5:8-9

Now we know that a man cannot come to the Son except the Father call Him, right? John 6:44 So we know that the choice a man makes is irrelevant
because it is up to God to do the calling (electing). Even though a man have head faith in Jesus without the Spirit He is none of His in this present
dispensation of time. First death. Jacob/Esau

I pray He opens your eyes more. But it is line upon line and precept upon precept. Requires much time. Thus patience.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

I'm not sure if your talking down to me is on purpose or thats just how you communicate, either way no offense taken but try to not do so much
dancing with words and ideas and put the meat on the table please. You will find the longer posts are, the less they're read, just a heads up.

Of course He knows the future for He scripted it.

He knows the heart of a person for He is the one who either made it a heart of flesh or hardened it to stone. Pharoah

Gods grace is not shed to everyone at this time for He is only concerned with maturing the first small group of sons. The Mystery of Iniquity.
The rest will come after the 1000 yrs has ended.

If He were to shed grace on all now then sin would not be as prevalent, as all would be born again and the process that requires sin against you to be
forgiven so that you could become more like your Father would slow the process.
Is this the sinners fault? NO
When Jesus was sacrificed did He not say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."? But at the same time it was the will and plan
of God that they crucify His Son. The cup Jesus was to drink that God had given Him.

Jesus learned obedience to the Father by the things He suffered and "having learned obedience became the author of eternal salvation to all
them that obey Him." Heb 5:8-9

Now we know that a man cannot come to the Son except the Father call Him, right? John 6:44 So we know that the choice a man makes is irrelevant
because it is up to God to do the calling (electing). Even though a man have head faith in Jesus without the Spirit He is none of His in this present
dispensation of time. First death. Jacob/Esau

I pray He opens your eyes more. But it is line upon line and precept upon precept. Requires much time. Thus patience.

Well I am not allowed to agree with something that I know to be false, because the bible, Jesus, or our Father taught me it is false.

That would be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, if I was willingly going against what I knew to be true. I can not apologize to you for that.

I did start my reply to what you wrote like this: “That seem to be a beautiful description of reasons for when He does decide to give of His blessed Grace.”

So I hope you could read from that i welcomed what you wrote, but felt the need to add to it.

When it Comes to choosing God, and God choosing us, what you write is not true.

We are to get baptized when we want to choose God, we are to repent when we want to choose God, We are to keep the 2 commandments of Jesus when we want to choose God, and so on.

God already knows the choices we will make, and will rule accordingly, cause He knows the future, but on earth those choices may not be made yet, and we still have to live through time and make them.

 

[Samson2020]

When it Comes to choosing God, and God choosing us, what you write is not true.

Oh but it is. The elect are the elect because He elected us, not the other way around. Paul is the perfect example- "He is a CHOSEN vessel"
did He get baptized in water first or get a supernatural appearance, was he a follower of Christ or a persecutor of the Elect?

We are to get baptized when we want to choose God,

Again did Paul want to choose God by being water baptized before His visitation?

we are to repent when we want to choose God

Did Paul repent before or after his visitation?

We are to keep the 2 commandments of Jesus when we want to choose God,

And does this happen before or after we know who Jesus is? Which requires God to call us unto His Son. John 6:44 NO MAN CAN COME TO ME EXCEPT,
the Father which hath sent me draw him.....................

God already knows the choices we will make, and will rule accordingly

You fail for this perception of the Father requires God to react to our choices instead of ruling His kingdom. He never abdicated His throne
in favor of our choices.
He even added "lean NOT to thine own understanding, for MY WAYS are higher than you ways, and MY THOUGHTS are higher than your thoughts"

 

[A servant of the Kings]

Oh but it is. The elect are the elect because He elected us, not the other way around. Paul is the perfect example- "He is a CHOSEN vessel"
did He get baptized in water first or get a supernatural appearance, was he a follower of Christ or a persecutor of the Elect?

Again did Paul want to choose God by being water baptized before His visitation?

Did Paul repent before or after his visitation?

And does this happen before or after we know who Jesus is? Which requires God to call us unto His Son. John 6:44 NO MAN CAN COME TO ME EXCEPT,
the Father which hath sent me draw him.....................

You fail for this perception of the Father requires God to react to our choices instead of ruling His kingdom. He never abdicated His throne
in favor of our choices.
He even added "lean NOT to thine own understanding, for MY WAYS are higher than you ways, and MY THOUGHTS are higher than your thoughts"

Yes you are correct as far as God being the one in control, and He will know before a person is born on earth.
And He will make His eternal choice in eternity.

But on earth in the dimension of time that person still has to do those choices that Father knows he will make.

If God wanted to make the choices for us I believe He would have given us no choice, there would be no need for baptism
repentance, nor following the two commandments that Jesus gave us.

The whole time since I have been able to hear from Father and from Jesus, they have always been interested in my will,
to wait and see if I volunteer, and praise me and reward me if I do.

To decide for me, or force me is definitely not what they want

Choice is so important to Him that he will allow people to choose satan, even though it is not His will.
But without choice there would be force against peoples will, to welcome such an order is the way of satan

God rarely used great force, and then for a good reason. Like destroying Sodom and Gomorra

God is a loving God, God is Love.

 

[Samson2020]

Yes you are correct as far as God being the one in control, and He will know before a person is born on earth.

If God wanted to make the choices for us I believe He would have given us no choice

To a degree that is true as Paul states in Romans 9:16-18 For UNTIL a man is drawn to Christ he doesn't have a choice to make for He has been hardened,
his ears are stopped and his eyes are blind to the Mystery of the Fathers will.

Again Ephesians 1:4 According as HE has CHOSEN us in Him before the foundation of the world...........having predestinated us unto the adoption.............
having made known unto us the mystery of HIS WILL.......which He hath purposed in Himself.

Do you truly believe that the spirit in a man born on the earth that came from the Father is destined to be tortured in eternity because they made a wrong
choice , with little to no actual clue as to what they were choosing, and starting from behind zero being born with a carnal mind that is at odds with God?
This would require God to appoint somebody to administer the torturing and hold a grudge against the uninformed. This is your view of the Father?

And how does that stack up to this:
1Co 15:28 For when ALL things are subdued unto Him, then shall the Son himself also be subject unto Him that did put ALL things under him,
THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

If God is all there is at this point then where is everybody?

 

[joestue]

Do you truly believe that the spirit in a man born on the earth that came from the Father is destined to be

For what its worth i dont believe our spirits come from God. They come from our parents, all the way back to adam, corrupted, which is why we have to be born again.

 

[Samson2020]

For what its worth i dont believe our spirits come from God. They come from our parents, all the way back to adam, corrupted, which is why we have to be born again.

When the body dies the spirit returns to the Father who gave it. Ecc 12:7

 

[Samson2020]

For what its worth i dont believe our spirits come from God. They come from our parents, all the way back to adam, corrupted, which is why we have to be born again.

We are physical beings and thus can only produce physical things. We cannot produce spirits.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

To a degree that is true as Paul states in Romans 9:16-18 For UNTIL a man is drawn to Christ he doesn't have a choice to make for He has been hardened,
his ears are stopped and his eyes are blind to the Mystery of the Fathers will.

Again Ephesians 1:4 According as HE has CHOSEN us in Him before the foundation of the world...........having predestinated us unto the adoption.............
having made known unto us the mystery of HIS WILL.......which He hath purposed in Himself.

Do you truly believe that the spirit in a man born on the earth that came from the Father is destined to be tortured in eternity because they made a wrong
choice , with little to no actual clue as to what they were choosing, and starting from behind zero being born with a carnal mind that is at odds with God?
This would require God to appoint somebody to administer the torturing and hold a grudge against the uninformed. This is your view of the Father?

And how does that stack up to this:
1Co 15:28 For when ALL things are subdued unto Him, then shall the Son himself also be subject unto Him that did put ALL things under him,
THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.

If God is all there is at this point then where is everybody?

Yes it is also what I have been taught by God what Paul writes there, God has taught me that Israelites the chosen ones
knows there are 2, and thus has a choice. But that it is after we made that choice between God and satan that we can become
sons of God.

So people who are not chosen, will not know that God exists, or that satan exists, and thus do not have a choice.

About why there are many people who are not chosen, I have not received enough guidance from the bible or from
God to answer, I can ask God for guidance abut it if you like. What you wrote about the non chosen being allowed after the thousand
years before is an interesting thought.

To give someone a choice is not cruel, it is the only way to have a relationship. God wants a relationship with us in Love.

Yes Father is the only one Who is, His name is: I AM

His light is the life within all humans, without is our bodies of flesh will fall don dead at once:

4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

His light is all there is cause all else is only temporary.

That His light is within all men, is the only proof we need of that Father did not abandon anybody
humans abandoned God.

The surest way to abandon God is to love the filth that is covering His light
to roll around like pigs in the dirt.

And the surest way to seek for Him that is purity, is to purify from the dirt that is covering up His light within:

3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.

It is written: 6 Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls before swine. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. 7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…

 

[Samson2020]

About why there are many people who are not chosen, I have not received enough guidance from the bible or from
God to answer, I can ask God for guidance abut it if you like.

I know the answers but for your sake you should ask.

What you wrote about the non chosen being allowed after the thousand
years before is an interesting thought.

Indeed.

Study this verse and tell me what you see.

Isaiah 59:21 "As for Me this is my covenant with them" saith the Lord. "My Spirit that is upon you(Jesus), and my words that I
have put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed,
saith the Lord, from henceforth and forever.

He is talking to Jesus in the Old Testament writings here as it was Jesus who received the Spirit (anointing) to preach good tidings etc....
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me.......

Who are the seed of Jesus? The elect? And who are the seed of the elect? Keep in mind that this verse speaks purely to the spiritual seed. And when
do the seed garner seed?
Some 30, some 60 and some 100 fold, only question is when.

 

[joestue]

When the body dies the spirit returns to the Father who gave it. Ecc 12:7

Yes but then you have the problem of how did that spirit get corrupted, and why does God have to give us a new one as prophesied of in Ezekiel/jeremiah, which appears to me, to be speaking of the christian born again salvation. the folks in the OT never experienced it.
--and where did the old spirit go?

also if God is creating our spirits before we are born (and the disney movie "soul" is a hilarious interpretation of how that might work).. then the virgin birth of Jesus is actually not required, unless you believe the spirit is somehow corrupted by the male dna contribution to the egg.

hence my conclusion that the delegation of creating life, not just flesh but spirit, was delegated and given to the human race. and this is what made the angels so jealous they came down to do it themselves, and ended up creating the half breeds. -and this is why the virgin birth is required, because otherwise there would be an extra human spirit, with no body to reside in, because it would have to get kicked out of Jesus' body, so God could put his own spirit in it.

yes, i know this sounds like nonsense. but its something a lot of people actively avoid thinking about.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

Thank you for sending me those beautiful bible verses.

But what you are asking me to do I do not do.

I do not make myself the judge of the word,

I do formulate questions to God regularly about bible verses

Then I accept His answer, I do not make up an answer myself.

I would not dare to.


God appointed me a prophet so that is of course how I will serve

It is totally in line with what is written that God will appoint prophets
teachers, evangelists and so on in the body of Christ.

I will appoint whom He knows is suited.

If you are specially interested in people who are not yet chosen by God,
(in the dimension of time on earth) maybe God could appoint you to a
position suitable for that purpose.

or maybe God already appointed you to a position, in which case I
would be interested to know which one.

Members of the body of Christ are not to compete but cooperate
It is the work of a prophet to receive word from God

God will know Who is suited, God trained me and picked me long before
I understood I wanted to choose Jesus. God made me a hermit for 3 years

It was essential since a prophet must sometimes focus totally on God,
Someone who is more extroverted, and has need for human companionship
may not be up for it

A person like that may be very well suited to talk to a lot of people, preach
evangelize.

But such a decision is up to God, whom He appoints is up to Him.


God will not leave humans, His light is the life inside all humans
when He leaves the bodies of flesh are no longer called humans
but corpses.

God has taught me about it, and it is also written here:

4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.

The truth is there whether a person knows it or not, the life, the light that is God is within as long as a human is alive.

But he or she must choose the light to become the light

He or she must choose God to become a son or daughter

 

[Samson2020]

Yes but then you have the problem of how did that spirit get corrupted, and why does God have to give us a new one as prophesied of in Ezekiel/jeremiah, which appears to me, to be speaking of the christian born again salvation. the folks in the OT never experienced it.
--and where did the old spirit go?

The spirit within a man is at war with the carnal mind it was born with by design of God, when the mind wins over the spirit you are a corrupted
filthy thing for you LIKE sinning, even though you maybe aren't aware of it being sin. You are a selfish, self seeking, pleasure hoarder, full of eyes that
are never satisfied with what they see nor can you ever have enough, be it money, food, cars, homes, etc..... This is the fallen state of all mankind at
some point in their earthly walk. Thus the spirit is said to be dead in sin and trespass.

The new spirit that arrives is the Spirit of the Son who is the only overcomer of this world and as such His overcoming spirit is joined with the spirit
in a man to bring it back to life(BORN AGAIN) and as it is a merger of the two it is a new creature. Gal 4:6

OT never experiencing it. Good point. For it was a hidden wisdom, Mystery if you will that was not revealed to many , much less available to anybody,
prior to the resurrection of Jesus, the Apostles, including Paul especially, gained insight into what that sacrifice was for and to what extent it reversed
the curse of the original sin.
That point is one that should be considered carefully in that those who died prior to the giving of the Holy Ghost and the overcoming spirit of Jesus
never had any opportunity to hear much less believe so when do they hear and believe. The SECOND death period.

Romans 11:25-26 For I would not brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, That blindness
in part hath happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles should come in. And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved...................

We can honestly say that the Jews of today are still to a large extent preaching the Old Mosaic Law for they are still blinded as mentioned above
for a reason and until that is fulfilled they will remain blind. But when that fullness has come to fruition then will they be saved. That happens during
the second death.

Let me ask What are you saved from?
Is it eternal fire?
Is it the carnal mind that brings us down to death?
Is it separation from God?
Is it from evil?
All the above?

I would give that it is all the above except eternal fire for the salvation process allows us to fight the good fight arriving as a fully matured son of
the living God at its end. Those whom never were called to begin the fight, the race, never stood a chance, and that is also corrected in the second
death time. Salvation is by Grace right. Can you attain it any other way scripturally?

also if God is creating our spirits before we are born

No you are and always were a part of God. In order to bring forth many sons God chose special starting material, which was only found within Himself.
Jesus came unto His own and they received Him not. If we were His prior to His crucifixion, and he calls us brethren many many times then that is
who we were and who we are, but prior to our earthly pilgrimage we were unable to sustain life within ourselves just as He was. Which is why He said
that "As the Father hath life within Himself so has He given to the Son to have life within Himself. " Then its Jesus' turn to give unto us life as we obey
Him just as He obeyed the Father. John 5:26 Heb 5:9
The first part of the paragraph can be depicted by God making Adam first and removing a rib to make Eve. He removed a part of Himself(adam) as the choice
of what or who would become His sons(us).

. and this is what made the angels so jealous they came down to do it themselves, and ended up creating the half breeds.

well from what I read it was simply lust that those angels had for the daughters of men. Gen 6:2

. then the virgin birth of Jesus is actually not required, unless you believe the spirit is somehow corrupted by the male dna contribution to the egg.

It is the Father who passes the carnal mind to the child, thus God not having a carnal mind did not pass one to Jesus. That is why he remained sinless.
For He was never at odds with God, although He did take it upon Himself at Gethsemane where He prayed that the Father remove the cup from Him,
and is proven by the fact just prior to this He was rebuking Peter for even suggesting He not let Himself be crucified. His mind had changed once
that carnal mind was upon Him. But He still went through it in order to kill that mind and the sin He carried for us to the cross.

i know this sounds like nonsense. but its something a lot of people actively avoid thinking about.

Not to me for if you do not seek answers you'll never find them.

 

[joestue]

It is the Father who passes the carnal mind to the child, thus God not having a carnal mind did not pass one to Jesus.

that is one way to explain it.

unfortunately, the word "mind" "heart" "soul" "spirit" mean different things to different people.

 

[NoHype]

I thought I stretched stuff a bit even for myself at times, but wow!!!

No stretching; you need to stick to the Scripture instead of mocking folks.

Everyone must make a 'choice' to believe on Jesus Christ to be saved, or not believe, nothing automatic, otherwise the unbelieving Jews could claim they don't need Christ.

The especially those that believe simply implies THEY already know that salvation has been given to them, the rest do not.

Never read Romans 10?

Rom 10:13-17
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!'
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, 'Lord, who hath believed our report?'
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
KJV

That above Scripture simply destroys your argument.

If Paul has Timothy to command and teach that God is the Saviour of ALL men, it is a statement that in order to be true requires the salvation of ALL.
Otherwise it would say God wishes to save all men but can't because of OUR CHOICES, REALLY? We gonna override God because we know best?

Yes, we must choose to believe on Jesus, really, and you don't it realize yet, that you are mocking God's Word by saying the above, as I just showed you in Romans 10 by Apostle Paul.

Don't think your gonna be able to sell that here.

Doesn't matter what you think about it, since by that statement it suggests you don't want the bother of going into the Greek to verify for yourself. Your statement won't fool the true disciple of Christ.

No problem with this. Its your understanding of the need for the second death, and what it produces that leaves you out of the total picture.

Uh... what?! ? What kind of statement is that "... and what it produces that leaves you out of the total picture"? That's an idiotic statement, and is just a mocking, not giving anything but your warped opinion, instead of actually sticking to the Bible Scripture.

The 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 Scripture is clear that TWO types of 'changes' are involved, and only those in Christ will have 'put on immortality' like Paul showed there. And I guess you checking out the Isaiah 25 Scripture where Paul got the 'death swallowed up in victory' idea from is too much a bother for someone like you too.

Thanks for your vain attempt at talking about Bible Scripture THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

That justifies me before the Lord

no.

Have you forgotten your justification?


Bless you ....><>

 

[TheRootOfDavid]

Greetings,



no.

Have you forgotten your justification?


Bless you ....><>

You like your compadre, give yourself way way way to much credit.
I told the Lord you will never learn your lesson. I was right.

 

[Br. Bear]

I told the Lord you will never learn your lesson

accuser of the brethren perhaps?