TheRootOfDavid
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You are not my brethren.
Heaven and Hell
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Greetings all,
some posts and replies will be removed so as to clear up the clutter this person has left behind
post in peace
Jesus is the Lord
Bless you all ....><>
@Christ4Ever
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some posts and replies will be removed so as to clear up the clutter this person has left behind
post in peace
Jesus is the Lord
Bless you all ....><>
@Christ4Ever
Who are your brothers in Christ ?
KingJ
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You don't define God with a place He created. Prophets that knew God very well gave us scriptures that define Him. We use them to define Him and then try better grasp the place He has created.
We need to be careful of false teaching. It is easy to assume the worst of God with this line of yours. It implies ''God is good, love and .....evil because He created a place of eternal torture''. IE God is a mix of good and evil.
No person on this planet will assume one is best defined as 'love' if they are guilty of torture as defined here Discussion on Torture.
The discussion on hell needs to start like this:
God, who is good Psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways to the exclusion of NONE Psal 145:17, light with no darkness in Him AT ALL 1 John 1:5, unthinkable that He do what is evil or pervert justice Job 34:12, the very definition of love 1 John 4:8....what can we expect a prison created by Him to look like?
B-A-C
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...and yet millions do.
Many of us would say no punishment for wickedness is more evil than no punishment at all.
Baptists, the largest denomination in the US believe this. Pentecostals ( The Assembly of God ) the largest protestant denomination in the world believes this.
Anglicans ( church of England, the largest church in Europe ) believe this. Even Roman Catholics believe this. It is part of the official doctrine of these churches. Lutherans believe this.
Greek Orthodox believe this. Methodists believe this. The Church of Christ believes this.
Unthinkable to who? ...not millions and millions of Christians.
What you call evil isn't what God calls evil.
KingJ
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You are changing the topic. I am not stating that a punishment for the wicked is a bad thing. Something a good God cannot do.
I am, as I have many times in the past, harping on the fact that you over emphasize hell and cherry pick the scriptures speaking to it in an attempt to suggest God has an evil side to Him.
It is righteous to punish the wicked for their sin. It is not righteous to punish the wicked with eye for an eye or harsher then the crime they committed. You and many others imply the worst case scenario for the wicked in hell. Completely and utterly misrepresenting God on the topic. Leaving the reader to assume the absolute worst.
I mean for arguments sake, just slowly re-read your line ''''God is love, good and.....get ready for it, surprise surprise, He is also a terrifyingly scary God that will place you in fire, weeping and gnashing of teeth for all of eternity....yes boys and girls....God is also the very definition of the most evil being you can imagine who will most certainly place in tormentous fire for all eternity the smallest of unrepentant sinners....God forbid even worse, those who don't subscribe to a certain belief system, forget repentance of sin....
Stop doing this BAC. It is a Christians ''' one job''' to 'properly' explain contentious scriptures to the weak and lost.
There is no evil in God. Zero. Zippo. Nudda.
That means we can all safely assume that there is no eye for an eye punishment in hell. There is no torture in hell. There is no unfair punishment in hell. Every punishment will match the crime and be 'humane'. Every good person on the planet will approve of God's chosen method of punishment. IE there is a lot of context missing when we state '''fire''' on its own. Or as you stated ''lake of fire''.
A Christian must explain to the lost how and why a good person, let alone a perfectly good God, would call a place of separation, a prison of sort, the lake of fire.
There are terrifying truths to hell. We do not need to incriminate God in an attempt to make people terrified of hell.
I will give you one such example. Your neighbor in hell will forever be an unrepentant sinner. Imagine that. You will have parties and what not. But the nicest person you can invite will be an unrepentant back biter. That is a terrifying truth about hell.
I don't like repeating myself, but you persist. I ask that you please slowly and attentively re-read this OP What to expect in hell.
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KingJ
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Of course it is!!!
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”
God can operate on a different plein to us, for sure. Who are we to put Him in a box. But teaching He has a code of ethics separate to ours is NOT scriptural. You are doing what Calvinists do with Rom 9. You are adding to scripture what is not there. Scripture points to God operating with us on our level. A code of ethics He chooses to live by. When scripture says He is good, it is according to our code of ethics.
The fact that you believe and teach that God has a separate code of ethics where He can consider something that is clearly evil as ''good'' is simply shocking.
place ?
B-A-C
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Isa 5:20; Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
KingJ
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BAC, you do realize you are calling darkness light?
Every person on the planet will agree that torture as defined here Discussion on Torture is the product of someone evil.
If you don't think torture is evil, please allow me to prove it to you. Go and put your hand on a flame and keep it there until your finger is cooked. Let me know how it goes. Until then, please accept correction and stop teaching that evil is good.
KingJ
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BAC said God is love, good and the one who created hell.....implying God has an evil side.
No prophet ever calls God evil. BAC is twisting scripture to imply it. Instead of stating and explaining to the reader that we need to better grasp how a good and loving God can be behind a place called the lake of fire.
B-A-C
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Exactly.
B-A-C
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Which post did I say these things? Where did I ever say God was evil?
But if God didn't create hell, where did it come from?
John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
2Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
At some point in time... everything that was ever created... was created by God. If we agree that hell and the Lake of Fire exist... then we have to agree that God created them.
In 2Pet 2:4; it says that God Himself cast the angels into hell. Matt 25:41; says hell was originally prepared for the fallen angels.
Jude 1:6; And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jude 1:7; Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matt 25:41; and Jude 1:7; say these fallen angels will suffer in the "eternal" fire. Eternal, never ending.
B-A-C
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This has all been mentioned before in various threads.
Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Rev 1:18; and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 6:8; I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Acts 2:27; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:31; he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Jesus talks about hell/hades more than anyone else in the Bible. In the first five verses above, Jesus is speaking of hades. In the first eleven verses below Jesus is speaking of hell.
In fact out of the 23 verses listed here. Jesus is speaking in 16 of them. More than 2/3rds of the verses in the New Testament about hell/hades are Jesus Himself speaking.
Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2Pet 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Matt 5:22; and Matt 18:9; say the "fiery" hell. Mark 9:43; says it is an "unquenchable" fire.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25; "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, ( Jesus is speaking here also ) verses 23 and 28 say he is in torment, hades is a place of torment. In verse 24 he says he is in agony.
But as bad as hell is... there is a worse place.
Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Rev 1:18; and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 6:8; I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 20:13; And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Acts 2:27; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:31; he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Jesus talks about hell/hades more than anyone else in the Bible. In the first five verses above, Jesus is speaking of hades. In the first eleven verses below Jesus is speaking of hell.
In fact out of the 23 verses listed here. Jesus is speaking in 16 of them. More than 2/3rds of the verses in the New Testament about hell/hades are Jesus Himself speaking.
Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2Pet 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Matt 5:22; and Matt 18:9; say the "fiery" hell. Mark 9:43; says it is an "unquenchable" fire.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25; "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, ( Jesus is speaking here also ) verses 23 and 28 say he is in torment, hades is a place of torment. In verse 24 he says he is in agony.
But as bad as hell is... there is a worse place.
B-A-C
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Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Rev 19:20; And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Hell/Hades is a temporary place. It will eventually be cast into the Lake of fire. ( Rev 20:14; ) But the Lake of Fire is forever. People who go here will be in torment forever. No rest day or night.
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Jesus says some people will go to "eternal" punishment. The word eternal is in verse 46 twice here. Eternal life and eternal punishment. It's the same exact word in the Greek here.
Eternal is the same length of time here. The eternal punishment lasts as long as the eternal life.
Matt 18:8; "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Matt 3:10; "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Luke 3:9; "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Rev 19:20; And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Hell/Hades is a temporary place. It will eventually be cast into the Lake of fire. ( Rev 20:14; ) But the Lake of Fire is forever. People who go here will be in torment forever. No rest day or night.
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Jesus says some people will go to "eternal" punishment. The word eternal is in verse 46 twice here. Eternal life and eternal punishment. It's the same exact word in the Greek here.
Eternal is the same length of time here. The eternal punishment lasts as long as the eternal life.
Matt 18:8; "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Matt 3:10; "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Luke 3:9; "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
B-A-C
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God is love.. yes. But He is also...
Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28; Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Isa 45:7; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. ( KJV )
Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28; Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Isa 45:7; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. ( KJV )
B-A-C
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Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
"prepared for the devil and his angels". Nothing catches God by surprise. God had a place prepared in advance for just such a situation. When was hell created?
Did it always exist? "... has been prepared". Who prepared it? The maid?
John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
ἑτοιμάζω
hetoimazō
het-oy-mad'-zo
From G2092; to prepare: - prepare, provide, make ready. Compare G2680.
Total KJV occurrences: 40
The same word for prepare is in all 3 of these verses. Matt 25:41; and John 14:2-3;
"prepared for the devil and his angels". Nothing catches God by surprise. God had a place prepared in advance for just such a situation. When was hell created?
Did it always exist? "... has been prepared". Who prepared it? The maid?
John 14:2; "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
ἑτοιμάζω
hetoimazō
het-oy-mad'-zo
From G2092; to prepare: - prepare, provide, make ready. Compare G2680.
Total KJV occurrences: 40
The same word for prepare is in all 3 of these verses. Matt 25:41; and John 14:2-3;
KingJ
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Please explain and give an example. Considering the below.
We have a working judicial system right now. Is there a punishment for a crime that you disagree with? I assume you are in America.
If we take a rapist as an example. They can get 25 years in prison. Do you disagree with that as a fitting punishment? Would you rather do something inhumane to them?
KingJ
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You need to re-read my posts. You are skimming. You imply it, as explained in post #64 and #71.
Just as you have once more done now in all the posts above where you cherry pick contentious scriptures. I am not sure how many times now I have asked you to not do this. It is false teaching and a gross misrepresentation of God.
You liked @joestue post that suggests God will dish out inhumane punishment. In what world and in what universe is inhumane punishment evidence of 'good'? I see you ignore my post #70 where I try explain that you and now Joestue too, are ironically calling evil, good.
You truly need to take my statements more seriously BAC. You are misrepresenting God. Borderline false teacher space. This is a serious matter.
