Heavy metal music is wrong

[Jacob123]

It's quite clear here, the Bible states that it is wrong, studies in music prove that it is wrong. Thus those that choose to listen to it regardless are doing so because they want to. They have no basis to justify it, so they will attempt to muddy scripture, calling God a liar, and will refute evidence by those far more knowledgable than them on the subject. If you want to do listen to this music, then at the very least be honest with yourself and confess the truth that it is not appropriate for Christian living. One of the chief problems in the Church is this desire to meld the worldly ways of the flesh with scripture. It results in a jumbled mess of a belief system that falls straight in line with New Age beliefs, and other Occult ideologies. That Church elders are not rebuking these things is disgraceful. But then it's always about the money, or gathering as many people as possible to boast of their congregation. Who cares of we are teaching rubbish and lies? Shove God aside, what does he know? this is starting to sound like the very lie that befell Eve and subsequently Adam. There is a lot of good information posted here by other, both scripturally and a detailed assesment on music further back. Don't be a fool and reject them. For scripture tells us:

Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Please provide me with a verse that states heavy metal is wrong.


I do hate the evilness of secular metal, you know what I do to counteract that? I listen to Christian metal which replaces the evilness with lyrics that are uplifting.

 

[jiggyfly]

The Drums are not mentioned even once! Why is that? The drum was a very common instrument in Egypt and the lands around Israel. Could it be the fact drums are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals?

Don't try to say God left it out or forgot to mention it. He even said "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD." The Bible is God's word, it is perfect and infallible.

"

CF are you familiar with the Hebrew word toph?
It is a hand drum. Not sure where you got your info but you may want to check you sources more closely.:wink:

 

[CherryFizzle]

CF are you familiar with the Hebrew word toph?
It is a hand drum. Not sure where you got your info but you may want to check you sources more closely.:wink:

Have you studied Hebrew correctly??
toph, תֹּף is a timbrel, tambourine!

 

[Zionist]

Why are we using the world occult again? I kinda don't see the purpose of that in this topic. Also when you think about it, the bible is pretty occult as well. A lot of text and how it was written were inspired by things like astrology (you know, information about the lights in the sky). It's also pretty supernatural as well. So before you start busting out words and trying to bash something, make sure the word doesn't describe what you base your entire life around. Not trying to be mean, but it's true. Kinda helps us all out here, just saying.

Satan has weaved a very strong delusion over you. Do you know what Occult means? It comes from the Latin word occultus, which means "hidden secret". The Bible is in no way Occultic in nature, quite the opposite. Jesus is the light, the truth, he does nothing in the shadows. What you posted is blaspehmous, no matter how hadr you may peddle your little interpretations.

Astrology and stargazing is FORBIDDEN in the Bible!

Deuteronomy 4:19 – “And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Isaiah 47:13 – “All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. Here are no coals to warm anyone; here is no fire to sit by.”

I am actually very concerned for you. I'm sorry, but you have demonstrated complete ignorance in both the Occult world and the Bible. You have no foundation for you supposed faith. I have been studying these things for decades, so I am more than familiar with these things. I can see that it's pointless taking this any further as most on here are unteachable and despise the Word of God in their hearts, boldly rejecting and twisting what he has to say. Good luck in life, I hope that Jesus can break through this barrier and reach your heart, likewise the others on here.

 

[Zionist]

Have you studied Hebrew correctly??
toph, תֹּף is a timbrel, tambourine!

This one is precious! As an Israeli I am astounded how they can pull this nonsense out of nowhere. Like I say Cherry, you are wasting your time.

Yasher Koach! Lehitra'ot

 

[Jacob123]

Like I say Cherry, you are wasting your time.

Yasher Koach! Lehitra'ot

You guys can't prove to us that Christian metal is wrong, and you know it. You guys are trying to act like God by condemning us for listening to a type of Christian music, when God has never clearly said that we should listen to only certain kinds of music. Zionist, stop acting like your better then us by saying we are "unteachable" , your no different, your just another sinner saved by the grace of God.

 

[jiggyfly]

Have you studied Hebrew correctly??
toph, תֹּף is a timbrel, tambourine!

You might want to do a word study and possibly a little on Jewish culture.
But at any rate even a tambourine is a percussion instrument from the drum family.

Merriam Webster's dictionary
Definition of TAMBOURINE

: a small drum; especially : a shallow one-headed drum with loose metallic disks at the sides played especially by shaking or striking with the hand

 

[Fraction]

Satan has weaved a very strong delusion over you. Do you know what Occult means? It comes from the Latin word occultus, which means "hidden secret". The Bible is in no way Occultic in nature, quite the opposite. Jesus is the light, the truth, he does nothing in the shadows. What you posted is blaspehmous, no matter how hadr you may peddle your little interpretations.

Astrology and stargazing is FORBIDDEN in the Bible!

Deuteronomy 4:19 – “And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

Isaiah 47:13 – “All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. Here are no coals to warm anyone; here is no fire to sit by.”

I am actually very concerned for you. I'm sorry, but you have demonstrated complete ignorance in both the Occult world and the Bible. You have no foundation for you supposed faith. I have been studying these things for decades, so I am more than familiar with these things. I can see that it's pointless taking this any further as most on here are unteachable and despise the Word of God in their hearts, boldly rejecting and twisting what he has to say. Good luck in life, I hope that Jesus can break through this barrier and reach your heart, likewise the others on here.

Satan has weaved nothing over me. I am above his grasp.

Where the word comes from makes no difference, you are using the english language. Lets look at what the word means in our english language and how it relates to the bible. We already know it means a type of secret, so we will look over that because you have covered it.

Occult - of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or super natural powers or agencies

So we know that magic is obviously not a good thing. We can move onto astrology. If you have done your research at all like you claim, you would know that theories exist that christianity is based around astrology alone. According to these very detailed theories, christianity is just manipulated astrology like the egyptian religion. Which is deadly close to christianity in almost every single aspect. These are things proven through science and history. I believe that these things are true.

You however need to understand my perspective on such things. Even though astrology strongly relates to the bible, God, and events in the bible does not mean that I hold astrology close to me, or have disbelief in God. Even though I believe that the egyptian religion is almost identical to christianity, does not mean that i believe in what it says. I believe that these things hold existence in history, but they are not valid and have never happened. God however, put action behind His scripture. Put reality behind His scripture. My faith is in Jesus Christ.

This moves on to how exactly the bible was written and the metaphors it uses. It does in fact relate to astrology in several ways and events. In no way does it support astrology in being fact, but it does relate to the stars and no one can deny that. Why is it like this? No one can exactly explain. Believers will say so for many reasons, non believers will use it as evidence in their case against God. I just think that Satan is greatly involved in all these theories.

Now we can look at the word super natural in the definition of occult. Which is very simple, God is super natural by definition. He is all powerful. He can create and destroy. He is above us and beyond any type of explanation humanity can provide. We cannot describe Him or his limitless power and abilities.

The word occult has been explained, along with the topic of astrology. In no way am I worshiping the stars. In no way am I supporting to defending other beliefs. If you do your research, you will see exactly what I am saying has been proven. It is our job to relate everything to God, and figure out with help what it means. None of this is horrible or awful in anyway. If you haven't noticed, it all goes directly back to God and his possible intentions and will.

There is no scripture to support these claims, so they are very easily dismissed. I believe that we must take human knowledge and revert it into knowledge on God. This is the only way to overcome, since it cannot be simply ignored. God gives us the spiritual resilience to do so.

There is no need to be concerned for me, because Jesus Christ is the foundation for my FAITH. I do thank you for caring about my spiritual well being though, I do greatly appreciate it. You claim you have knowledge, but it seems to me you are blind and blow things out of proportion. I mean no offense to you, but that is what it seems to me. I would also very much like it if you would stop judging my faith, because you do not know what is in my heart. Only my savior does, because He is in it himself.

 

[CherryFizzle]

You can claim you follow the bible all you want and your opinions do not have anything to do with it. You can pretend that now and for the rest of your life. I am sorry to tell you that every time you interpret something in the bible, it becomes your opinion. Countless amounts of people will interpret the same text you do as something completely different or just a little different. It is the way it is, and there is nothing you can do about it. It doesn't make you wrong, but to even hint at your way being the only way is. This is one of the infinite reasons that salvation is so simple, and why we have been given the Holy Spirit. Accept the truth or deny it, it's up to you.

Why are we using the world occult again? I kinda don't see the purpose of that in this topic. Also when you think about it, the bible is pretty occult as well. A lot of text and how it was written were inspired by things like astrology (you know, information about the lights in the sky). It's also pretty supernatural as well. So before you start busting out words and trying to bash something, make sure the word doesn't describe what you base your entire life around. Not trying to be mean, but it's true. Kinda helps us all out here, just saying.

So on to the topic of the thread once more.

Can we please stop trying to give scripture in the bible that talks about events where music is involved and talked about to judge what music should be like? Evolution is REAL you know? We do develop and get smarter and advance into different phases over time. So music does change. I don't think I have heard a harp since I played final fantasy 9. The bible doesn't tell us in detail what kind of music to listen to and not listen. HOWEVER, what was one of the last verses in the bible? What does it tell us to do? Listen to the SUM of the bible. That means we can put the information that we have gathered and apply it to everyday life. The key word there is LIFE, it guides us in LIFE.

So where am I going with this? Am I crazy? Do I really have a point? Yes I do! If you want to sit there and talk about the "melody" in music, which is pretty much instrumentals or the SOUND of the music, then it makes your whole point rather useless. These sounds can only touch emotions, emotions which you control, and then the emotions can make thoughts, which the thoughts you control. No melody can be condemned, it depends on how YOU accept the melody into your head. If you listen to metal sounds, and you think about sinful stuff...you're the one with the problem. You control your emotions and your thoughts. You can try to tell me this is wrong all you want. I find a lot of super heavy stuff to be very peaceful and relaxing.

Moving on. You have to look at the intentions behind the meaning of the song itself. What do you take from the song? If the song is explaining in great detail on how to murder someone and get away with it, it's obviously not a good thing. If the song is about being strong and getting through problems in life, then it is obviously good. If the song is going on and on about how christianity is awful, then it is obviously bad. If the song (In christian music) is going on and on about how wicked awesome Jesus is, then it is obviously good.

I have also yet to see very many ANYTHING with evil symbols. I mean, I know the heartagram is pretty offensive to some. It is a HEARTAGRAM, not a PENTAGRAM. It might not do it any justice, but there is a difference. Thats all I can think of that people even take any offense to. Oh never mind, disturbed has a pentagram on one of their albums. I am not saying these certain actions aren't sinful. Not trying to justify them or defend them. I am just saying that you can't run around condemning every single thing a genre or band produces just because they do one thing that you find wrong. You're a sinner too ya know. Don't forget.

This leads on to my final point pretty much. We can't look at music as a whole or a genre as a whole. It's not that simple or easy. To do so makes you one of those crazy blind christian people. The kind of people that think random things in the world are evil, like...muffins or something. When we all know that God invented muffins. It isn't biblical, but there just isn't any other logical explanation of something so wonderful. (anyway) We have to take the knowledge that we have gathered from the bible and apply it to the things in life. If it comes between you and God it is WRONG, if it doesn't then it is okay.

This is of course my opinion, and I am sticking with it. Not here to argue or anything, because this stuff is all pretty unimportant to me. Why? I don't let worldy things jump into my relationship with God. I don't let it hinder it one bit. I just made this post so we can kind of look at the bigger picture, rather then busting out all the stops on one subject lol.

Zionist. I see CF's opinions, and I greatly respect them. I just don't respect how her opinions are pushed off as direct facts without hesitation. A lot of what she says is fact, but most is opinion. They should not be forced onto anyone. Most of your comments in your post are opinions as well. You throw us into the pot when you talk about the people who call God a liar and the people who will not be accepted. You have no right to judge any of us, because you are very well a sinner as well. You are in the same exact boat as us all. Who are you to tell us who and what we are? You are the exact same, nothing more and nothing less.
The way you talk about the way of divided religion, and the way of the world, I have no doubt that you have seen some things and have had some experiences. I do also know that you have not seen it all, experienced it all, or even know it all. Yes this world is a bad place, but the people you gather together could be stronger than you in faith! Only God knows the heart of humanity, your job is to help...not condemn.

CherryFizzle, I respect your opinion and I understand the way that you feel about it. I have nothing at all against it. I only respond because it must be known that everyone is different, and opinions should never be forced. Even this post is mostly opinionated. I just want you to know that CherryFizzle. That's all.

I'm not forcing my opinion, I am simply stating what the Bible says. You talk about our "interpretations". Yes, men(humans) do make their interpretations, and that is why the worldly/natural man cannot understand the Bible! We should ask the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible correctly and help us when we study it, so that we can have God's correct interpretation. That is one of the Holy spirit's roles in our lives, to help us learn God's word and have clear understanding. Christianity isn't about how we interpret things, but about what God tells you. If something is occult based you can't say "I'll pick out the stuff I don't think is bad and it will be fine".

1 Corinthians. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Historians, Theologians, Scholars all agree (despite any personal belief) that Christianity is the one religion that is very black & white, that is why they believe it gets so much attack. You either follow God or you Don't, there is no middle ground.

Rev. 3 : 15 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

Its the world's view (and thus Satan's deception) that if you "feel" good about something it is alright. Infact that idea is the driving force of many pagan, "new age" and Satanic belief systems. If someone says they have control over their emotions, then they wouldn't let how they feel about music over-ride God's word. He was VERY clear about what music is and what music you should be involved in. That is not a "personal interpretation" it IS fact.There IS such a thing as right and wrong, and God tells us which is which.

Romans 14 Its amusing how people pluck this out of the Bible and use it to justify anything (and people do). You must always remember the context of scriptures before you isolate them and use them as your sole doctrine.
Romans was written in about AD 57 by Paul to the church in Rome. There were disputes regarding the Gentile believers, and how far they should adhere to the Jewish law. The main issues being circumcision, keeping the Sabbath observance and food laws. He speaks of universal sinfulness and thus salvation through Christ for both Gentile and Jew. And goes on to address theological practices. The Whole book of Romans is related! It is not a mess of isolated texts, it is a well planned argument from start to finish. Therefore, everything in Romans should be kept in the context of the whole argument of the book!
As stated there had been disputes between those who said to eat certain foods and those who did not agree. The ‘eaters’ and the ‘non-eaters’ condemned each other. Others in the church believed that a certain day was sacred, and argued with those who disagreed. That is when Paul took his role and resolved the issues.
Romans 14 must agree with what he says in the rest of the book. For example, when Paul lists various sins throughout the book, Romans 14:23 does not negate those lists. No matter how much faith you have, those things are still sin. For instance, as sexual sin of various kinds is explicitly and repeatedly condemned in the book of Romans (Rom 1:25-27, 2:22, 13:9, 13:13) then Romans 14 does not contradict that counsel. Romans 14 does not provide a ‘loophole’ to get around restrictions mentioned elsewhere in the book of Romans, or in any book of the Bible!
In verse 14, Paul says that “nothing is unclean in itself”, and in verse 20, “all things indeed are clean”. The primary meaning of the phrase in verse 14 must, of course, have to do with food, as that is the topic under discussion: the next verse begins with a linking word variously translated as ‘for’ (NASU, NET), ‘yet’ (NKJV) or ‘but’ (KJV), which indicates that what is to follow gives a reason or explanation. That is, verse 15, which explicitly mentions food is given as the explanation of verse 14.
Rom 14:15 "For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died."

You need to study the Bible under the guidance of the Holy spirit, not just read through it and pick out scriptures out of context.

John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

Jesus said He would send us another Comforter ("Paraklete"), the same kind of Comforter that He was. Comforter corresponds to the Hebrew word "Menachem" The Spirit is a comforter of the very same sort as Jesus. The Greek word "Paraklete" includes the concepts of One who is called alongside, an Adviser, Corrector, Lawyer, Counsel for the Defense, Legal Assistant, Helper, Strengthener, Encourager.


If everything was about feelings and how you view things personally then why send the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin? Why should He correct us and teach us? You might as well through the Bible out if you believe this because man will then interpret the Bible however he wishes to justify his actions, as many already do today!

I won't go on any further with this point, as I have done what God tells us to do. I will "wipe the dust from my feet" and move on.

Just a note Fraction... when you said "Why are we using the world occult again? I kinda don't see the purpose of that in this topic. Also when you think about it, the bible is pretty occult as well. A lot of text and how it was written were inspired by things like astrology (you know, information about the lights in the sky). It's also pretty supernatural as well. So before you start busting out words and trying to bash something, make sure the word doesn't describe what you base your entire life around."

That was outright blasphemous. The bible is not occult. Occult means "hidden". It has come to mean "knowledge/practices that should be hidden" involving all ungodly things like witchcraft, demonic rituals incantations, astrology etc. Everything The Bible actually forbids. Would you prefer the word esoteric? Its all the same, as it is all forbidden by God.
The Bible is not inspired by astrology at any point, but forbids you to have anything to do with it.

Astrology is the practice of psychic readings, predictions by the planets, stars or moon; horoscopes, Numerology etc

Isaiah 47:11-14a

Astronomy is the scientific study of celestial objects (Stars, planets etc) In other words learning about the stars. This is not forbidden, and if fact is useful to understand how complex they are and how amazing God is as Creator.
The Bible isn't inspired by this though, it does give reference to it because God explains things to us.
The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is holy and perfect. It is not of the occult. Simple as that.

 

[CherryFizzle]

You might want to do a word study and possibly a little on Jewish culture.
But at any rate even a tambourine is a percussion instrument from the drum family.

Merriam Webster's dictionary
Definition of TAMBOURINE

: a small drum; especially : a shallow one-headed drum with loose metallic disks at the sides played especially by shaking or striking with the hand

*sigh* You know, you can accept when you are incorrect about something. You assume too much. I have Jewish family (not that I should need to bring it up), I have a very clear understanding of the Jewish culture thank you. I also know what I am talking about when it comes to gammar of the Hebrew language. Tambourine is the adopted English word anyway. It is Timbrel as I posted. It is not a drum at all, the fact that you have to strike it/ tap it with your hand is the reason for Western peoples "drum" description. It is actually related to the cymbals (hence the cymbals); which are percussion instruments.
Compare it to a Drum physically and the sound... they are completely different and unrelated.

Instead of doing a google search or going to wiki for the answer, maybe it is you should do some real study instead of trying to "disprove" what I said just because you don't like it.

 

[Fraction]

I'm not forcing my opinion, I am simply stating what the Bible says. You talk about our "interpretations". Yes, men(humans) do make their interpretations, and that is why the worldly/natural man cannot understand the Bible! We should ask the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible correctly and help us when we study it, so that we can have God's correct interpretation. That is one of the Holy spirit's roles in our lives, to help us learn God's word and have clear understanding. Christianity isn't about how we interpret things, but about what God tells you. If something is occult based you can't say "I'll pick out the stuff I don't think is bad and it will be fine".

1 Corinthians. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Historians, Theologians, Scholars all agree (despite any personal belief) that Christianity is the one religion that is very black & white, that is why they believe it gets so much attack. You either follow God or you Don't, there is no middle ground.

Rev. 3 : 15 "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

Its the world's view (and thus Satan's deception) that if you "feel" good about something it is alright. Infact that idea is the driving force of many pagan, "new age" and Satanic belief systems. If someone says they have control over their emotions, then they wouldn't let how they feel about music over-ride God's word. He was VERY clear about what music is and what music you should be involved in. That is not a "personal interpretation" it IS fact.There IS such a thing as right and wrong, and God tells us which is which.

Romans 14 Its amusing how people pluck this out of the Bible and use it to justify anything (and people do). You must always remember the context of scriptures before you isolate them and use them as your sole doctrine.
Romans was written in about AD 57 by Paul to the church in Rome. There were disputes regarding the Gentile believers, and how far they should adhere to the Jewish law. The main issues being circumcision, keeping the Sabbath observance and food laws. He speaks of universal sinfulness and thus salvation through Christ for both Gentile and Jew. And goes on to address theological practices. The Whole book of Romans is related! It is not a mess of isolated texts, it is a well planned argument from start to finish. Therefore, everything in Romans should be kept in the context of the whole argument of the book!
As stated there had been disputes between those who said to eat certain foods and those who did not agree. The ‘eaters’ and the ‘non-eaters’ condemned each other. Others in the church believed that a certain day was sacred, and argued with those who disagreed. That is when Paul took his role and resolved the issues.
Romans 14 must agree with what he says in the rest of the book. For example, when Paul lists various sins throughout the book, Romans 14:23 does not negate those lists. No matter how much faith you have, those things are still sin. For instance, as sexual sin of various kinds is explicitly and repeatedly condemned in the book of Romans (Rom 1:25-27, 2:22, 13:9, 13:13) then Romans 14 does not contradict that counsel. Romans 14 does not provide a ‘loophole’ to get around restrictions mentioned elsewhere in the book of Romans, or in any book of the Bible!
In verse 14, Paul says that “nothing is unclean in itself”, and in verse 20, “all things indeed are clean”. The primary meaning of the phrase in verse 14 must, of course, have to do with food, as that is the topic under discussion: the next verse begins with a linking word variously translated as ‘for’ (NASU, NET), ‘yet’ (NKJV) or ‘but’ (KJV), which indicates that what is to follow gives a reason or explanation. That is, verse 15, which explicitly mentions food is given as the explanation of verse 14.
Rom 14:15 "For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died."

You need to study the Bible under the guidance of the Holy spirit, not just read through it and pick out scriptures out of context.

John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

Jesus said He would send us another Comforter ("Paraklete"), the same kind of Comforter that He was. Comforter corresponds to the Hebrew word "Menachem" The Spirit is a comforter of the very same sort as Jesus. The Greek word "Paraklete" includes the concepts of One who is called alongside, an Adviser, Corrector, Lawyer, Counsel for the Defense, Legal Assistant, Helper, Strengthener, Encourager.


If everything was about feelings and how you view things personally then why send the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin? Why should He correct us and teach us? You might as well through the Bible out if you believe this because man will then interpret the Bible however he wishes to justify his actions, as many already do today!

I won't go on any further with this point, as I have done what God tells us to do. I will "wipe the dust from my feet" and move on.

Just a note Fraction... when you said "Why are we using the world occult again? I kinda don't see the purpose of that in this topic. Also when you think about it, the bible is pretty occult as well. A lot of text and how it was written were inspired by things like astrology (you know, information about the lights in the sky). It's also pretty supernatural as well. So before you start busting out words and trying to bash something, make sure the word doesn't describe what you base your entire life around."

That was outright blasphemous. The bible is not occult. Occult means "hidden". It has come to mean "knowledge/practices that should be hidden" involving all ungodly things like witchcraft, demonic rituals incantations, astrology etc. Everything The Bible actually forbids. Would you prefer the word esoteric? Its all the same, as it is all forbidden by God.
The Bible is not inspired by astrology at any point, but forbids you to have anything to do with it.

Astrology is the practice of psychic readings, predictions by the planets, stars or moon; horoscopes, Numerology etc

Isaiah 47:11-14a

Astronomy is the scientific study of celestial objects (Stars, planets etc) In other words learning about the stars. This is not forbidden, and if fact is useful to understand how complex they are and how amazing God is as Creator.
The Bible isn't inspired by this though, it does give reference to it because God explains things to us.
The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is holy and perfect. It is not of the occult. Simple as that.

It is obvious that throughout this topic you have been forcing your opinion, going on and on about YOUR interpretations of the bible. If you were not forcing your opinions or demanding that your opinions are fact, you would make it clear. Instead you push your interpretations as fact, instead of saying "this is what I believe". The Holy Spirit works for us all in different ways. I believe that it why Christianity is flawless. God will comfort us in every way possible, which includes giving us our own interpretation of certain things throughout his words. In no way am I claiming your opinions are wrong. In no way am I casting out your opinions blindly. I am stating that all hearts are different, all interpretations are different, all influences and comfort from the Holy Spirit is different. God knows us all individually, He knows what will work for each and every one of us. We have emotions and feelings in spirit as well, and out Holy Spirit uses them to convict and help us. Love is one of these. So you cannot dismiss emotions and feelings, ever.

You need to read my recent post on astrology and the word occult.

You have no ground to accuse me of blasphemy. In no way have I put anything above my Savior. In no way have I denied God or attempted to insult him. I have stated facts discovered in history, and facts in the english language. Then I take these facts that we have found records of, and then apply them to my religion to re-enforce it ten fold. I am strong in my faith, and will never deny my Savior, or give His credit to another. I take facts proven by man, and then apply it to my faith. Instead of blindly saying "NO THAT ISN'T TRUE". I can say, "It is true, but there is a reason behind it in my belief". For example, the Egyptian religion was almost identical to Christianity. However, who pulled it off? Did the Egyptian gods pull it off and go through with it? My Savior did, not theirs. Satan bent and twisted people, but my Savior actually did what had to be done. Saying it means nothing, but God made it reality. Keep that in mind, because that is my opinion. It is not blasphemy.

 

[jiggyfly]

*sigh* You know, you can accept when you are incorrect about something. You assume too much. I have Jewish family (not that I should need to bring it up), I have a very clear understanding of the Jewish culture thank you. I also know what I am talking about when it comes to gammar of the Hebrew language. Tambourine is the adopted English word anyway. It is Timbrel as I posted. It is not a drum at all, the fact that you have to strike it/ tap it with your hand is the reason for Western peoples "drum" description. It is actually related to the cymbals (hence the cymbals); which are percussion instruments.
Compare it to a Drum physically and the sound... they are completely different and unrelated.

Instead of doing a google search or going to wiki for the answer, maybe it is you should do some real study instead of trying to "disprove" what I said just because you don't like it.

CF I didn't google anything, that is just an assumption on your part. I actually have some books concerning Israeli/Jewish history and culture, Cyclopedias, and several Hebrew Lexicons.

The toph was an instrument adopted by Israel from the Egyptians and is considered by many bible scholars to be a hand drum. The metseleth is the Hebrew word for "cymbals".

 

[AudreyNicole]

What genre do I think is good? I don't see that as being valid. My opinion doesn't matter. Besides its not about a genre but the actual music. and b) I think whatever God says is good is good, as He has authority as the creator and is not a liar. c) What do you mean by good? Quality or Christian... I personally like alot of genres of music not one type, but I don't listen to anything God says is wrong.

This idea that I have based things on an opinion and not Gods infallible word frustrates me indeed! I am NOT being biased in any sense with my "opinions" I am following what is written in the Bible. Sheesh! It would be nice if somebody could grasp this at last. D: I never claimed to be God, but I do have the authority to speak Gods word which He has provided for us, to reveal truth which God provided. You should be aware of this as a Christian.

Brace yourselves because this is going to be long, but complete. And it is based on GODS WORD NOT MY OWN!!! Please, either read the whole thing or don't reply because it it all relevant and important as a whole!

First we need look at what music is, its components that define it as a whole. Music is composed of three main components; Melody, Harmony and Rhythm.

As defined in the Dictionary...

Melody: 1. Sweetness of sound; music 2. The chief theme of a musical composition. 3. A tune; song

Melody is the most prominent part of music. Melody is the theme of the tune. Without the melody line, there is no music! Melody is the horizontal line the notes follow on the musical score.

"Three things belong to composing, first of all melody; then again melody; then finally, for the third time, melody." Salomon Jadassohn (Wordsworth Dictionary of Musical Quotations, p. 15)

"Melody is the very essence of music." Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Wordsworth Dictionary of Musical Quotations, p. 16)

Harmony: Agreeable proportion of sound. A succession of chords.

Harmony is when two or more notes are played at the same time. Harmony adds depth to the melody line! Harmony is the basis for the formation of chords. Harmony is the vertical line where the notes meet on the music score.

Rhythm: The pattern of tones with regard to their relative time value.

Rhythm is the movement in music. Without rhythm, music would be one, long continuous sound, or an uncontrollable noise.The rhythm is an "unseen" but required component of the music score.

So we have the basic understanding here, the melody is the main component, the harmony adds depth to this and the rhythm is the unseen glue. But in Heavy metal and various other "genres" today the rhythm or the beat literally takes over the music! This is something even the musicians accept.

Here are quotes on Rock music (though today I think we can agree the "beat" is the main component in alot of music genres, Look at Rihanna's Disturbia which is "Pop")...

"The rhythm in rock is the dominant part of the sound. The heavy emphasis on the BEAT is what distinguishes rock from every other type of music." (Frank Garlock, Music in the Balance, p. 32)

"Perhaps the most important defining quality of rock and roll is the beat, . . . Rock and roll is different from other music primarily because of the beat." (Charles Brown, The Art of Rock and Roll, p. 42)

And it is that Beat which the Flesh really loves!

"The sexuality of music is usually referred to in terms of it's rhythm — it is the beat that commands a directly Physical response." (Simon Frith, Sound Effects, Youth, Leisure, and the Politics of Rock 'n' Roll, p. 240)

"Rhythm is the element of music most closely allied to Body movement to Physical action. Its simpler patterns when repeated over and over (which is exactly what that metal etc do) can have a hypnotic effect on us". (Joseph Machlis, The Enjoyment of Music, p. 19)

You all know this to be true. The beat gets you tapping your foot or hand, and starts you moving, even without thinking about it. People aways say things like "I really love this beat" or "Give me a good beat to get into and I'll be happy" etc...

Michael Jackson was asked why he did the "groin-grabbing" on stage and he replied: "It's the music that compels me to do it. You don't think about it, it just happens. I'm a slave to the Rhythm!"

"We take the kids away from their parents and their environment to where the only reality is the rhythm and the BEAT." (Hart, Lowell Satan's Music Exposed, p.102)

What does the Bible say about music? Many people say its subjective and that God just "left that part out", or isn't specific. God is always specific! He doesn't "forget" and He makes all things clear to us. So does He say what is "Christian" music? Of course!
The ridiculous lies about the Bible not giving us clear instructions on the type of music a Christian should listen to can be dead and buried if you obey His word.

Isaiah 23 : 16 "Take a harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered."

Isaiah 51 : 3 "For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; jothe d gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody."

Ephesians 5:18 - 19 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; "

God refers to music as MELODY! So many times it states it in the Bible! (It looks like Mozart and the Dictionary are right!) According to God, the emphasis of Christian music is the melody — not the BEAT! So how can people say the Bible gives no instructions on the type of music a Christian should listen to (or produce)? It's all a matter of " preference and culture"? Either you haven't read the scriptures yet, or you don't care what God has to say within them.

According to the technical definition of music — genres like Rock and Metal aren't even music. And according to the Lord God — they are NOT music! Because No Melody = No Music! (Don't argue with me about this, argue with God and the Dictionary and learned Musicians. This will be more complete as we go on anyway!)

Lenny Seidel, a concert pianist and twenty-five year Christian music scholar, gives this definition of both godly music and rock music:

"True godly music will be composed of three elements - all in perfect balance. They are: Melody, harmony, and rhythm."

"The big beat is deliberately aimed at exciting the listener. . .There is actually very little melody, little sense in the lyrics, Only Rhythm (beat)". (Los Angeles Herald-Examiner, Aug., 8, 1965, p. 9J)

Rock "music" has no melody only fragments of melody endlessly repeated. Since there is no true melody, there is no real harmony. There is only rhythm. And rhythm in and of itself is not music." (Leonard J. Seidel, Face the Music – Contemporary Music On Trial, pp. 46-51)

"How does rock differ from jazz and other popular music? One characteristic is its HEAVY BEAT, which led one critic to define rock as 'music in which the bass drum carries the MELODY?'" (Charles R. Hoffer, The Understanding of Music, p. 503)

Metal (go into whatever sub-genre you like) & rock music and others emphasizes that hard, driving beat. What instrument do you hear more than any other? What instrument is it that pounds out that heavy beat? The DRUM!

The Bible lists many kinds of instruments:

Psalms 150:3
"Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. "

The Drums are not mentioned even once! Why is that? The drum was a very common instrument in Egypt and the lands around Israel. Could it be the fact drums are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals?

Don't try to say God left it out or forgot to mention it. He even said "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD." The Bible is God's word, it is perfect and infallible.

"The shaman was the original 'long hair', the first rock star draped in leather, dancing possessed to a rhythm banged out on a drum." (Danny Sugerman, Appetite for Destruction, p. 208)

In Siberia, in northern Asia, drums are used in shamanic rituals to heal people. It is believed that the shaman can communicate with the spirit world through drumming. (Louise Tythacott, Musical Instruments, Thomas Learning, 1995, p. 37)

"Pagan dances and rituals are always accompanied by the incessant beat of drums. Rhythm plays a major role in these demonic activities." (Hart, Lowell Satan's Music Exposed, Salem Kirban Inc., 1980 p.71)

"Bata drums (drums used in voodoo), sacred to the Yoruba people of Nigeria and Cuba: Their push and pull provided a template for the inner rhythms of rock and roll." (Palmer, Robert Rock & Roll An Unruly History, Harmony Books, New York, 1995 p.46)

"The idea that certain rhythm patterns or sequences serve as conduits for spiritual energies, linking individual human consciousness with the gods, is basic to traditional African religions, and to African-derived religions throughout the Americas. And whether we're speaking historically or musicologically, the fundamental riffs, licks, bass figures, and drum rhythms that make rock and roll can ultimately be traced back to African music of a primarily spiritual or ritual nature. In a sense, rock and roll is a kind of 'voodoo' . . . ," (Robert Palmer, Rock & Roll, An Unruly History, Harmony Books, New York, 1995 p.53)

Robert Palmer also describes how drums are used in "voodoo" possession, and the same drum patterns are part of the basics of rock, metal etc!

"Bata drummers tap out their toques, or rhythm patterns, like signals to the realm of the gods, inviting and enticing them to come on down and mount or possess their horses, or devotees. . .The specific drum patterns or toques include some riffs and licks basic to the rock and roll vocabulary." (Palmer, Robert Rock & Roll An Unruly History, Harmony Books, New York, 1995 p.62)

"My true belief about Rock is this: I believe this kind of music is demonic . . . A lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo drums." (Charles White, The Life and Times of Little Richard, p. 197)

You can look up the origins and usage of Drums and their rhythms/beats yourself. But scripture left out the drum for good reason as you can clearly see!God didn't "forget" and was not "unclear".

Christian music should feed the Spirit not the Flesh!

Ephesians 5: 19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Galatians 5: 16 "For the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other:. . ."

You cannot serve the Flesh and the Spirit! The heavy beats that take over and/or replace the Melody are appealing to the flesh as we already mentioned. It is not serving God, it is not what God says to Praise Him with in the Bible, so it has no part in "Christian Music". It is not feeding your spirit, but your flesh. Christians are to crucify the flesh!

Galatians 5: 24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

God is Spirit and you "must worship Him in spirit".

John 4:24 "God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

James 4:4 "know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

The Bible tells us...
2 Cor. 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, "
Not only do we "touch" it, we "honor" them by singing their songs.

1 Cor. 14:15 "I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also."

Christian music is not entertainment (I know this is unpopular but it is true). Christian music is spiritual "food". Real Christian music admonishes, while praising the Lord. It is not for evangelism either!

To say that having Christian messages within non-Christian based music is okay because you can bring people to Christianity through it very wrong. Not only because it cannot be combined (the Flesh and the Spirit), but because Christian music is not meant to be used for evangelism, but for the Christian community and the Praise towards God! We are to Preach to the lost, not lure them in with "feel-good" corrupt Christian music, which shouldn't be for them anyway!

Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the LORD"

Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the LORD;"

1 Cor. 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of Preaching to save them that believe."

"Music is NEVER used in Scripture as a means of reaching the lost." (Tim Fisher, The Battle for Christian Music, p.155)

Christian music should emphasis and praise the Lord, not the music nor the musician!
Psalm 66:2 "Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious."

You cannot sing to "please men" and sing unto the Lord. It's one or the other!

Galatians 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."

When Christian musicians get too caught up with their music and just the "right-sound" they lose the plot! When it is more of a "performance" rather than a Christian message it has lost its Christian purpose and is fruitless. Unless you are not a Christian, then it is supplying your worldly/ fleshly needs.

Music like metal, rock and all that have that driving beat are of the Flesh. That is why the world loves it, and what the world loves is not of God as it is against Him. The world does not love holy, spiritual things...

1 Corinthians. 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

"When Christian music carries the beat, instrumentation, and exact sounds of the lost crowd, it results in confusion and shame... It is shameful to use musicians who in shallow songs daze instead of praise, who entertain instead of train... They transfer the worship owed to Christ to 'concert hopping', money-hungry entertainers who have never left, the world far enough behind to stop sounding like it..."(Shame, a tract by Dr. Hal Webb, pp. 2,4,6)

"Its admirers want to make rock appealing by making it respectable. The thing can’t be done. Rock is appealing because it’s vulgar, . . Rock is the quintessence of vulgarity. It's crude, loud, and tasteless." (Pattison, Robert, The Triumph of Vulgarity, 1987, preface, p.4)

An anonymous testimony from someone on other site (can't link)..

"When I got saved, I loved rock 'n' roll. Nothing – but nothing, was more important to me than rock music!. I played rock guitar – day and night! I did not have a dream or goal besides rock music. And when I got saved July, 30, 1975, at 20 years old, I had NO intention to stop listening and playing rock music. But something changed. . .

I didn't know it then — but "old things are passed away; behold, all things are become New" and that included my music!

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become NEW. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I didn't change intentionally — but within six months, the ONLY music I wanted to listen to and play was real Christian Music. Music that praised my Lord and Savior! My desire and love for rock music was replaced by a NEW SONG — even PRAISE unto our God!
Just as 2 Corinthians 5:17 says (and God cannot LIE - Titus 1:2) "all things are become NEW" and the very FIRST thing God "makes new" is a NEW SONG!

After someone trusts Jesus Christ, according to the Word of God, God gives that person a "NEW song" — and notice that NEW SONG is — "PRAISE unto our God". And also notice — "he has put" — God did it. If someone does NOT have a NEW SONG chances are they're not even saved! All things are become NE especially your music! "

Psalm 144:9 "I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery and an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee."

I can go on further or I can leave it here. The bible tells you what you should and should not listen to or produce. And it is all for good reason, as God knows best. It goes further into where it is appropriate to play Christian music, and more on appearance (although God does not judge us on what what we look like, He does have certain standards which He explains clearly and for a purpose, there is such a thing as un-Godly apparel).

I've finally finished my commentary against your argument. I've broken it up into sections, and the red text are my comments while the black text is yours. See below:

 

[AudreyNicole]

What music is...

Phew… I got through your whole argument, lol. It was a good one too, but I’m afraid I’m still not convinced. Here would be my commentary…. It’ll probably be equally as long, or longer haha. Anyways, here goes (red are my words, blue are your words):

I never claimed to be God, but I do have the authority to speak Gods word which He has provided for us, to reveal truth which God provided. You should be aware of this as a Christian.
I am most definitely aware that we can speak with authority by His power… but again, our words are simply from men, and they are our own interpretations and beliefs based on our own personal experience with Christ and through His Spirit. Again, you eat meat, I don’t. You worship on Sunday, I worship on Saturday… Both are our own interpretations of the text through the Spirit’s leading. It’s a personally relationship with Christ, not a group relationship. So what you personally call unclean, and what I personally call unclean may be too different things. I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. (Romans 14:14)

First we need look at what music is, its components that define it as a whole. Music is composed of three main components; Melody, Harmony and Rhythm.

As defined in the Dictionary...

Melody: 1. Sweetness of sound; music 2. The chief theme of a musical composition. 3. A tune; song

Melody is the most prominent part of music. Melody is the theme of the tune. Without the melody line, there is no music! Melody is the horizontal line the notes follow on the musical score.

"Three things belong to composing, first of all melody; then again melody; then finally, for the third time, melody." Salomon Jadassohn (Wordsworth Dictionary of Musical Quotations, p. 15)

"Melody is the very essence of music." Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart (Wordsworth Dictionary of Musical Quotations, p. 16)
So we have a melody, cool. But as you say further down, it must start with rhythm, “The rhythm is an "unseen" but required component of the music score.” If you play music, you know that you must start with the count first; the beat; the rhythm; the time signature. It starts with rhythm.


Harmony: Agreeable proportion of sound. A succession of chords.

Harmony is when two or more notes are played at the same time. Harmony adds depth to the melody line! Harmony is the basis for the formation of chords. Harmony is the vertical line where the notes meet on the music score.
The “vertical line” on sheet music is you describe is called the “bar”, and that actually helps with division of time according to the time stamp. Therefore, it has more to do with rhythm than with harmony.
Harmony and melody are played congruently and both follow the “horizontal line” you describe above, aka “staff”. Each staff is comprised of notes of both harmony and melody, and run the entire measure. You can think of harmony as the background notes and melody as the foreground notes. Most times when learning to play music, the harmony is played on the bottom staff, the bass clef; and the melody is played on the upper staff the, treble clef.

Rhythm: The pattern of tones with regard to their relative time value.

Rhythm is the movement in music. Without rhythm, music would be one, long continuous sound, or an uncontrollable noise. The rhythm is an "unseen" but required component of the music score.
Agreed.

So we have the basic understanding here, the melody is the main component, the harmony adds depth to this and the rhythm is the unseen glue. But in Heavy metal and various other "genres" today the rhythm or the beat literally takes over the music! This is something even the musicians accept.
Ok, so maybe that’s what you hear. Personally I hear more instruments then the drum, but even if the rhythm does take over… God never says that it is “bad” or “wrong” to have emphasis on the beat. You bring this up further down, and I argue my case further down. So read on.

 

[AudreyNicole]

Opinions of other people...

Continuing on (red are my words, blue are your words):


Here are quotes on Rock music (though today I think we can agree the "beat" is the main component in alot of music genres, Look at Rihanna's Disturbia which is "Pop")...

(From here you recite a lot of different opinions from various men, some of them not even Godly men, so I have taken the liberty, since we are reciting the mere opinions of men, to state my own. I don’t really care what men think… I only care what God thinks. So I don’t really see what use these claims and statements have. But you do bring in actual scripture later on… that is where the real argument begins. For now though, more opinions.)


"The rhythm in rock is the dominant part of the sound. The heavy emphasis on the BEAT is what distinguishes rock from every other type of music." (Frank Garlock, Music in the Balance, p. 32)
An opinion that makes sense. Again, personally, I don’t mainly listen to the beat. And, again, God never says heavy rhythm or beat is wrong or bad (*to be argued further down).

"Perhaps the most important defining quality of rock and roll is the beat, . . . Rock and roll is different from other music primarily because of the beat." (Charles Brown, The Art of Rock and Roll, p. 42)
Another opinion, but I don’t really agree with this. The things I hear in the heavy metal/rock I listen to are much more than simply drums. That is my personal experience. Yours may be different.

And it is that Beat which the Flesh really loves!
So there is a beat to rock music… Again, personally, I listen more to the melody than the beat. I listen to a lot of what’s called “symphonic metal” which utilizes entire symphonies and choirs, so the piano and the stringed instrument, as well as the vocal melody, becomes mainly what the song is comprised of. The beat, as you say, just holds it together... that’s not what I hear. But again, that is my experience; may not be yours. But still, God never says a heavy beat is wrong or bad (*to be argued further down).

"The sexuality of music is usually referred to in terms of it's rhythm — it is the beat that commands a directly Physical response." (Simon Frith, Sound Effects, Youth, Leisure, and the Politics of Rock 'n' Roll, p. 240)
I don’t know about you, but personally I don’t think of sex when I listen to rock. In fact, I actually like rock because the beat is virtually “un-danceable”. So it eliminates all such “sexual moves”. Again, that’s my personal experience and this presents just another opinion I don’t agree with. For you that may be different, but when I hear rock/heavy metal I don’t think sex at all. I think God!

"Rhythm is the element of music most closely allied to Body movement to Physical action. Its simpler patterns when repeated over and over (which is exactly what that metal etc do) can have a hypnotic effect on us". (Joseph Machlis, The Enjoyment of Music, p. 19)
Again, personally, I don’t listen to the beat, or for the beat. And once again, an opinion I don’t really agree with. And I would say there are no simple patterns in heavy metal… have you heard that stuff? It’s way too complex to dance to. There is a reason why no dance halls, clubs, floors, or studios use heavy metal for choreography…. It’s not danceable! So the idea that it could possibly promote any type of sexual dance move is pretty deniable.

You all know this to be true. The beat gets you tapping your foot or hand, and starts you moving, even without thinking about it. People aways say things like "I really love this beat" or "Give me a good beat to get into and I'll be happy" etc...
Again, metal isn’t very danceable…. I think you’re thinking of rock-and-roll from the 1960’s maybe?? The only real “dance” move you can do with metal or rock is head banging.


Anyway, even if it does make you dance, “wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the LORD with all his might” (2 Samuel 6:14) Head banging is a pretty mighty and passionate dance move!
The Lord says nothing against rhythm or beat (see argument below), and we are even encouraged to dance before the Lord. So, if rhythm and beat promotes dancing, and we are encouraged in the Bible to dance, shouldn’t we be promoting rhythm and beat? (Logical argument, just follow the steps: A=B, and B=C, so A=C)

Michael Jackson was asked why he did the "groin-grabbing" on stage and he replied: "It's the music that compels me to do it. You don't think about it, it just happens. I'm a slave to the Rhythm!"
His music doesn’t qualify as rock/heavy metal so I don’t quite know why it’s included. Anyway, I most definitely don’t care at all about anything he thinks, believes, says, does… So I’ll just dismiss this opinion.

"We take the kids away from their parents and their environment to where the only reality is the rhythm and the BEAT." (Hart, Lowell Satan's Music Exposed, p.102)
Not quite sure what this means…. But it is yet another man’s mere opinions.

 

[AudreyNicole]

Scripture on Music...

Continuing on (red are my words, blue are your words):




So now, you finally bring in some scripture. This is what really matters…. This is what I really care about. I will now proceed to argue the claim I made earlier (God doesn’t condemn a heavy beat in song/music) as well as present some new claims.

What does the Bible say about music? Many people say its subjective and that God just "left that part out", or isn't specific. God is always specific! He doesn't "forget" and He makes all things clear to us. So does He say what is "Christian" music? Of course!
The ridiculous lies about the Bible not giving us clear instructions on the type of music a Christian should listen to can be dead and buried if you obey His word.

Isaiah 23 : 16 "Take a harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered."
It says to “make sweet melody and sing many songs”, heavy metal has a melody, and it is a song (as it is comprised of melody, harmony, and rhythm), thus qualifying it as both song and including melody. So, sing heavy metal (or your music of choice).


As you see, this verse makes no mention of what song or melody is… it simply states “sing song and melody”. It says nothing about how much melody, how little melody, how much harmony, how little rhythm… it just states “sing song and melody”. And since heavy metal is a song with singing and a melody, it qualifies by this verse as music.

Isaiah 51 : 3 "For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody."
I hear many voices of melody in rock and heavy metal, but I think this brings up a great point. It’s not about what goes in the ear, but what comes out of the man. Heavy metal produces in me joy and gladness, praise and worship, awe and love, peace and reverence.


Again, this verse makes no mention of what song or melody is… it simply describes the fruits of good song and melody. If you bear these fruits while listening to your music, then it is good. And once again, heavy metal produces in me joy and gladness, praise and worship, awe and love, peace and reverence.

Ephesians 5:18 - 19 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; "

God refers to music as MELODY!

While He does say melody, He also says song, and again heavy metal is a song (comprised of melody, harmony, and rhythm). It says speak spiritual song, sing and make melody… so not just melody. Don’t forget the rest of the verse; you forgot to include the “song and singing” part. And again, heavy metal employs melody, harmony, and rhythm, thus qualifying it as song. And it has singing, thus qualifying it as singing; and it has a melody, thus qualifying it as music. So, don’t forget to include the whole verse, song, singing, and melody… (not just melody). You forgot all the other parts. So God actually refers to music as “psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody”… don’t forget to read the whole verse there.
I would like to also provide you with different translations of the same verse as you see some of them don’t even mention melody:


NIV Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord (this says “music”, not “melody”. Heavy metal is comprised of a harmony, melody, and rhythm thus qualifying it as music, so it is included in this verse)


ISV Then you will recite to one another psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs; you will sing and make music to the Lord with your hearts; (this says “music”, not “melody”. Heavy metal is comprised of a harmony, melody, and rhythm thus qualifying it as music, so it is included in this verse)


GWT reciting psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs for your own good. Sing and make music to the Lord with your hearts. (this says “music”, not “melody”. Heavy metal is comprised of a harmony, melody, and rhythm thus qualifying it as music, so it is included in this verse)


I could go on, but I hope you get the point. It is about how we personally translate it, how we personally interpret, it and how we personally experience it through Christ. Heavy metal is music by definition because it is comprised of harmony, melody, and rhythm. It may have an emphasis on beat, but you still have yet to provide scripture that says God condemns heavy rhythm or beat. I don’t care about the opinions you provided earlier… I only care what God thinks. The above verses you’ve provided make no mention of beat, some don’t even mention melody, and none of them mention harmony. But what they are common on is song and music. They don’t specify God’s preferred "harmony-melody-rhythm" ratio…. They simply say song. So if that song is heavy on melody, it still counts as a song. If it is heavy on rhythm, it still counts as a song. If it is heavy on harmony, it still counts as a song. It simply says song.



So many times it states it in the Bible! (It looks like Mozart and the Dictionary are right!) According to God, the emphasis of Christian music is the melody — not the BEAT! So how can people say the Bible gives no instructions on the type of music a Christian should listen to (or produce)? It's all a matter of " preference and culture"? Either you haven't read the scriptures yet, or you don't care what God has to say within them.


(See above argument) I’ve already showed the different translations and we’ve already seen that “melody” isn’t the only word He uses. Again, don’t forget the rest of the verse: “psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody”.


According to the technical definition of music — genres like Rock and Metal aren't even music. And according to the Lord God — they are NOT music! Because No Melody = No Music! (Don't argue with me about this, argue with God and the Dictionary and learned Musicians. This will be more complete as we go on anyway!)
Again, personally I hear more melody in the rock I listen to then the beat. I could even argue that a good beat could make up a melody, as there are many different tunes, tones, and sounds associated with beat. Anyway, rock does have a melody, so by your equation, it would be music (melody=music). Again, heavy metal is comprised of harmony, melody, and rhythm, so it qualifies as music. There is no specified rhythm to melody to harmony ratio… again, the Bible says “song”, no mention of how much of each as long as it has each. The Lord doesn’t say, “the less the beat the more holy it is”, He doesn’t even say, “the more the melody the more holy”. He simply states the many ways in which we can worship Him: “psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody”. Heavy metal may not go under the melody category, but it goes under the song and singing category. There is a variety presented in that verse; again, not just melody but “psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody” The word “and” implies an added condition as opposed to “only” which implies exclusivity. The Lord did not say “only melody” but “and melody”. Don’t forget the other parts of the verse.

 

[AudreyNicole]

back to people's opinions...

Continuing on (red are my words, blue are yours):


So now we’re back to what men think… not what God thinks. Break out the opinions!

Lenny Seidel, a concert pianist and twenty-five year Christian music scholar, gives this definition of both godly music and rock music:

"True godly music will be composed of three elements - all in perfect balance. They are: Melody, harmony, and rhythm."
Another of man’s opinions. This one I agree with though… and, personally, I think good heavy metal is the perfect balance of melody, harmony, and rhythm. You personally may not think so, but again, we’re speaking of man’s opinions.


"The big beat is deliberately aimed at exciting the listener. . .There is actually very little melody, little sense in the lyrics, Only Rhythm (beat)". (Los Angeles Herald-Examiner, Aug., 8, 1965, p. 9J)

Hmmm, again (since we’re going off man’s opinion), I listen to mainly the melody in the rock I hear. And I find great sense and great beauty in the lyrics! Here are some great lyrics of one heavy metal song I love… oh, such beauty in these words:

Through the ages your name will reign forever... never to be replaced
In these trials I face, I pray you humble me
Humble me I want to be like you Jesus more and more like you
You touch my heart in such a way that all I can do is cry your name
Jesus Christ I love you!


Rock "music" has no melody only fragments of melody endlessly repeated. Since there is no true melody, there is no real harmony. There is only rhythm. And rhythm in and of itself is not music." (Leonard J. Seidel, Face the Music – Contemporary Music On Trial, pp. 46-51)

Another of mans’ opinions. And again, (you guessed it) I don’t agree. Since we’re going off man’s opinions here, my opinion is that heavy metal is full of beautiful melodies, lovely harmonies, and incredible rhythm. A thing of sheer beauty!


"How does rock differ from jazz and other popular music? One characteristic is its HEAVY BEAT, which led one critic to define rock as 'music in which the bass drum carries the MELODY?'" (Charles R. Hoffer, The Understanding of Music, p. 503)

True statement, but every song is carried by the beat…. You said it yourself, without rhythm, music would be one, long continuous sound, or an uncontrollable noise. The rhythm is an "unseen" but required component of the music score. So of course the melody is going to be carried by the rhythm. Have you ever played an instrument? You first start with the beat, then on to the melody. This is how music is created.


Metal (go into whatever sub-genre you like) & rock music and others emphasizes that hard, driving beat. What instrument do you hear more than any other? What instrument is it that pounds out that heavy beat? The DRUM!

I hear the piano, the choir, the guitar, the harp, the violin, flute! Anyway, still there is no verse in the Bible where God condemns a heavy rhythm or beat. So there is nothing wrong with a heavy rhythm.

 

[AudreyNicole]

the drum...

Continuing on (red words are mine, blue words are yours):



I see you already went over this drum argument, but I would, too, urge you to check your history, and archeological facts. Also, there are many things in this world the Bible left out... that doesn't make them wrong or bad. So I don't find the logicality in such an argument, I find fallacy.... but anyways:


The Bible lists many kinds of instruments:

Psalms 150:3
"Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD. "

The Drums are not mentioned even once! Why is that? The drum was a very common instrument in Egypt and the lands around Israel. Could it be the fact drums are associated with voodoo, shamanism, paganism and magic rituals?

Well, I hate to ruin your argument, but actually drums are mentioned in the above verses. The cymbal is usually a part of the beat/drum set; it is used to carry the rhythm. And the timbrel is actually a drum. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Timbrel, “tof”, is from ancient Hebrew, and was the principal musical instrument of percussion of the Israelites. The word timbrel is used in the Old Testament in both singular and plural form, so as to suggest the former referred to a hoop of wood or metal over which was stretched a parchment head (our modern day drum); while the latter was perhaps used to designate the tambourine with bells or jangles fixed at intervals in hoops. In Nahum 2:7, where the word "tabering" occurs, it means beating on the breast, as drummers beat on the tabret. The Israelites actually learned to use the timbrel during their sojourn in Egypt. The timbrel was a favorite instrument of the women, and was it was used by Miriam (I love her!) to accompany songs of victory, or with the harp at banquets and processions; it was one of the instruments used by King David and his musicians when he danced before the Ark of the Covenant. So indeed the drum was mentioned by the Lord and was an important part of the Lord’s ancient music! So I think your argument is kind of dashed on that one.

Anyway, there was a beat and rhythm to their music whether they used a drum or not. You said it yourself, the rhythm is essential or else you can't have music. So whether it was a drum or not.... they used a beat. Are you arguing against the rhythm or the drum? Neither are unclean of themselves. God created both.

Don't try to say God left it out or forgot to mention it. He even said "Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD." The Bible is God's word, it is perfect and infallible.



Let's see... God left out a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they are bad, wrong, or forgotten. I don't see a verse about abortion? Or the wrongness of black slavery? The Bible presents general truths and universal principles and from these things we apply them to our daily lives. Just because its not explicitly in the book don't automatically assume it is wrong, which is what you've done here.

 

[AudreyNicole]

Continuing on (red are my words, blue are yours):


"The shaman was the original 'long hair', the first rock star draped in leather, dancing possessed to a rhythm banged out on a drum." (Danny Sugerman, Appetite for Destruction, p. 208)

I don’t know what a shaman is. But the rockers I listen to don’t have long hair (that’s gross), and they don’t wear leather, and they don’t dance, lol.


In Siberia, in northern Asia, drums are used in shamanic rituals to heal people. It is believed that the shaman can communicate with the spirit world through drumming. (Louise Tythacott, Musical Instruments, Thomas Learning, 1995, p. 37)

Hmm, did you know some people use the Bible to communicate with spirits? I don’t think that makes it wrong…. I sure hope you don’t think so!


"Pagan dances and rituals are always accompanied by the incessant beat of drums. Rhythm plays a major role in these demonic activities." (Hart, Lowell Satan's Music Exposed, Salem Kirban Inc., 1980 p.71)

Again, the Bible is used a lot in demonic activities…. So are candles. I’m assuming the Bible isn’t bad. Are candles bad? Jesus used candles… we’re supposed to be lanterns for God!


"Bata drums (drums used in voodoo), sacred to the Yoruba people of Nigeria and Cuba: Their push and pull provided a template for the inner rhythms of rock and roll." (Palmer, Robert Rock & Roll An Unruly History, Harmony Books, New York, 1995 p.46)

Originally posted by Jiggyfly, many of the hymns in the ole red back hymnal are poems put to old bar room melodies. Does that make them wrong? No, so long as we are not drunk with wine, but filled with the Spirit when we sing them! It’s nothing outside a man can make him unclean by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean. (Mk 7:15 NIV). These voodoo people definitely are unclean, but rock produces in me a Spirit filled with joy, peace, love, and awe!


"The idea that certain rhythm patterns or sequences serve as conduits for spiritual energies, linking individual human consciousness with the gods, is basic to traditional African religions, and to African-derived religions throughout the Americas. And whether we're speaking historically or musicologically, the fundamental riffs, licks, bass figures, and drum rhythms that make rock and roll can ultimately be traced back to African music of a primarily spiritual or ritual nature. In a sense, rock and roll is a kind of 'voodoo' . . . ," (Robert Palmer, Rock & Roll, An Unruly History, Harmony Books, New York, 1995 p.53)

Hmmmm, interesting. That’s not what I use heavy metal for though. I use it to praise the One most Holy! Did you know some people use the Bible for demonic activities (oh wait, I already said that)… but I use it to praise God! It’s about what comes out from a man… the fruits produced.


Robert Palmer also describes how drums are used in "voodoo" possession, and the same drum patterns are part of the basics of rock, metal etc!

"Bata drummers tap out their toques, or rhythm patterns, like signals to the realm of the gods, inviting and enticing them to come on down and mount or possess their horses, or devotees. . .The specific drum patterns or toques include some riffs and licks basic to the rock and roll vocabulary." (Palmer, Robert Rock & Roll An Unruly History, Harmony Books, New York, 1995 p.62)

Again, not what I use heavy metal for. I use it to praise the One most Holy! It’s about what comes out from a man… the fruits produced. Anyway it’s not the drum that connects me with God… it’s the Spirit within me!

Also, you say basic rock drum patterns are from voodoo, or influenced by voodoo… Well I don’t know how well versed you are musically, but I come from a music background. There are only a few basic drum beats to begin with, and then from these we establish variations. Advanced drum set beats are formed by embellishing on the basic ones. I’m sorry to say that your basic voodoo beats were probably the same ones used by the Israelites, David, and Miriam in the Bible, because again, it starts with the basics.


"My true belief about Rock is this: I believe this kind of music is demonic . . . A lot of the beats in music today are taken from voodoo, from the voodoo drums." (Charles White, The Life and Times of Little Richard, p. 197)

Another of man’s opinions. Here’s mine:

“My true belief about rock is that it has the ability to praise and glorify God!” (AudreyNicole, My Life and Times Guided by God)

I also know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. (That’s straight from the Bible, Romans 14)


You can look up the origins and usage of Drums and their rhythms/beats yourself. But scripture left out the drum for good reason as you can clearly see!God didn't "forget" and was not "unclear".

So, again, we’ve already established above He didn’t leave out the drum aka “timbrel”. And it was actually a significant part of music in scriptural times, why?… because as you said, it starts with the rhythm; can’t have a song without the rhythm first.

 

[AudreyNicole]

Continuing on (red are my words, blue are yours):



Christian music should feed the Spirit not the Flesh!

Not only that, it should produce good fruits!... and rock does for me: joy, peace, hope, love, awe!


Ephesians 5: 19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

Colossians 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

“Spiritual songs”… heavy metal is comprised of harmony, melody, and rhythm, therefore it qualifies as song. When it is guided by the Spirit and produces good fruit, it becomes a Spiritual song! This verse doesn’t even mention melody, so that kind of kills your melody argument again.


Galatians 5: 16 "For the flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other:. . ."

And if you walk by the Spirit, you won’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh. I walk by the Spirit and listen to Spirit filled music therefore, according to the Bible, I don’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh… unless you are implying the Bible lied on that one??


You cannot serve the Flesh and the Spirit! The heavy beats that take over and/or replace the Melody are appealing to the flesh as we already mentioned. It is not serving God, it is not what God says to Praise Him with in the Bible, so it has no part in "Christian Music". It is not feeding your spirit, but your flesh. Christians are to crucify the flesh!

Galatians 5: 24 "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

God is Spirit and you "must worship Him in spirit".

John 4:24 "God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

James 4:4 "know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

So, I’ve been saved. I crucify me flesh daily (sometimes hourly). I walk by the Spirit. I have died with Christ, and he has set me free from the evil powers of this world. I don’t follow human rules such as don’t touch, don’t taste, don’t handle, don’t listen…. I follow Christ. I hate the world. I worship in Spirit, and I worship in the music I listen to, including heavy metal. Is that good enough for you? Oh wait, you don’t matter in my salvation, only God. I’ve prayed about this issue specifically, and I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of heavy metal itself; but to him who considers it to be unclean, to him it is unclean. (That’s from the Bible, led by the Spirit, from within my heart. Romans 14:14)