Hell for non-followers of Christ?

[David777]

Hello all.

I remain open as far as deciding on eternal punishment.

There are problems with an eternal spirit.

Here is a scripture Mike,

John 3:16 People who don't believe in Jesus shall perish and not receive eternal life.

The meaning of perish is death or destruction.

Here are some other verses,

2Thessalonians 1:9

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death.

Then on the other hand,

Isaiah 33:14 "The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless:
'Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?'"

Jeremiah 23:40 "I will bring on you everlasting disgrace
—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."

These are some of the scriptures, i dare not jump in either direction.

Even if the meaning of aionios is an age of undefined length.

This does not disqualify eternal punishment.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 14:11, does use the word torment, and no rest.

No matter what the arguments are, the issue will always remain unresolved for me anyway.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Just let me see the scripture that there is no time in the spirit, or that time is not kept track of.

Time is kept track of no doubt.but time is relative to mass and speed.
Light is pure energy and has no time.We want to be in the light as he is in the light.In fact Jesus is the light so he is not bound by time.
How do you think the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world?How were we healed by his stripes hundreds of years before he went to the cross?

John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

Jesus used the phase a time is coming and now is several times which goes along with the fact that the finished work was already a reality in heaven.

John 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus said he was in heaven at the same time he was on the earth.
He had not ascended when he said that or had he?

Proverbs claims he already had ascended and descended.
Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

God is simply not bound by time.There is no shadow of turning,no night and day.The very description of eternal tells us that it is out of the bounds of time,no beginning and no end and that means no time.So day and night means it is not speaking of eternal things but of earthly things were there is a night and day.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image,
and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So will the beast and his image be around for eternity?
Wouldn't this apply to a select few who were alive at a certain time?

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This is after the wicked are thrown in the lake of fire right?Why would the wicked be an issue at all.
It would be more logical to believe it is describing something we have not yet considered.

 

[Brother Mike]

Thank you David777

One thing I have respected about you David is that you truly look at the scriptures, and attempt to learn and seek truth, even when we have not agreed, you did consider. That is very hard to find.

All sin leads to death. In Deut 28 we see sin bring sickness and all manner of ways to die....... We can safely assume physical death here.

If Accepting Jesus brings eternal life. Then not accepting should bring something else eternal like..... say death, or destroyed with no more way to have life. Just gone....

Lets forget all those other scriptures. Jesus giving word for Word Abraham in Hell, talking to the rich man. Jesus would never lie about anything Abraham said. Never. It was not a parable.

Lets forget about eternal punishment, there are reasons those extra words are there, and the Greek word for a time Chronos was never used.

and lets forget all those other scriptures we might use to prove in some eternal hell.

What does God see when someone refuses His gift, his son, his grace.?????

Sadness I would think for sure. We need scripture.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Dead is used in a different way than we use it. God see's men as dead already, though they walk and breath still.

Then there are those dead in Christ, who have eternal life.
Already our concept of Dead is much different.

What about perish though?


Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Perish, means dead.... Job said they turn to dust. (Elihu) Job 34:15

The wicked perish, they consume away, like smoke. Psa 37:20
The wicked perish, they become like dung of the earth. Psa 83:10.

Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Where does the perishing part come in, what place, what location?

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


Jer 10:11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.

Perish means you have no more work, no more part, nothing to accomplish here between the heavens and the Earth. You die once, then Judgement.

To do the will of God, all your work tried by fire shall not perish, you will not be forgotten..............

Certainly also the Word Perish in the context it is used does not really mean anything once you leave this earth. We still are spirits. We don't die, we go someplace. Your works on earth will perish and be forgotten if you don't know the Lord.

We go back to ALL the scriptures and concept of eternal Hell. Because if we look at Perish to prove no punishment, we use the word, but not as God intended.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

Wait a Minute!!!!


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Those in Christ are perished, when Jesus said they should not perish?

Not a problem if Perish means dead works, or good works on earth. Works for the Lord, or works for corruption which will be but forgotten.

Those that have died without the Lord have perished in the eyes of the Lord, to be forever without him. In hell, in eternal punishment just as many scriptures say. Even on earth with breath, many look very dead to him already.


2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Thank you David777

Jesus is Lord.

 

[jari]

everybody perishes from earth. but those in christ don't perish eternally (second death) .

which is explained in 1Co 15:17-18

but we know this is not the case, Christ has risen and those dead in Christ have not perished.

 

[Brother Mike]

umm.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

It clearly states those in Christ Perish. Your issue is making Perish mean something that is not there.

I already gave lots of scriptures that state perish means dead on earth, and your works and memory forgotten.

Those in Christ, doing the will of God are not forgotten, Their names are written in the book of life.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[judge not]

Judge Not....... I understand all those scriptures, Paul spoke of our physical body being sown in corruption. The physical body dies, no more brain activity, The Dead know nothing new under the sun.... Earth.

But Paul also spoke of a Heavenly body. Our spirit is sent into our mortal bodies. I assume at birth. The dead have their bodies brought back, in corruption, we uncorrupted. You and I get a new Body, but to cloth what?

Our spirit. It's our spirit that can not be killed. I have seen all the scriptures about body and soul destroyed in Hell. Certainly It will be but It will be destroyed as in non-Usable.

I have given you many scriptures to tell you we are spirits, Like God, in his image. So brother, we need some scriptures that describe the destruction of our spirit.

If we are really going to invalidate Hell. Tell people they don't have to be concerned about some eternal punishment, we need to make very sure Hell is not actually punishment and torment.

We have to do something with the spirit of man, we got body, we got some soul, but we need spirit. Sounds like a song.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The Greek used here is Aion Aion it denotes age without end, but even in that these men are tormented day and night.

Put all the scriptures together brother........Check it out before you tell people that Eternal torment is not real... find where the spirit is killed or dead, or can even be killed.

We are all here to learn.

Jesus Is Lord.

The soul (psuche) and the spirit (pneuma) are similar in meaning.
eternal and everlasting do not always mean never ending as we have seen in various scriptures, Jude 1, Exodus 12, 1Kings 8, etc....
The word aion ios carries more than one meaning and cannot under all circumstances, be interpreted as eternal in the sense of never-ending
Isaiah 34:9,10-notice the imagery of the punishment proposed for Edom-it's very similar to the Revelation texts you quoted earlier Rev.14
God can if He chooses extend individual conditional immortality in some cases if He decides too-He controls life and death.
Malachi 4:1 -says on the Day of the Lord all evildoers will be stubble, the day that comes shall burn them up...so that it will leave them neither root nor branch- that speaks of destruction and complete annihilation-if we don't impose preconceived ideas on biblical text it is obvious the fate of the unsaved is destruction
Psalm37-transgressors shall be altogether destroyed.
In Matt 13:30 Jesus also uses the imagery of total destruction
Job 14:12-it's the whole person himself, not just a part of him who rises when Christ returns
Your concept of an eternal spirit man was born with is in conflict with what God says about immortality.
Romans 2:6,7- God will render to every man according to his works;to those who by patience in well-doing SEEK for glory and honor and IMMORTALITY, He will give eternal life"
If we believe what Jesus says-we may be given something we do not now have: " everlasting life "
God is not the author of confusion and lies
Christian thinking has been dominated from the beginning that the belief the soul survives death because it is by nature an incorporeal substance. This assumption goes back to Plato's view of the soul as metaphysically indestructible, a view shared by Augustine and Calvin.
It's time we rescue Christianity from Hellenism.

next subject please- I'm moving on to something different-thanks for allowing my input

 

[jari]

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

It clearly states those in Christ Perish. Your issue is making Perish mean something that is not there.

I already gave lots of scriptures that state perish means dead on earth, and your works and memory forgotten.

Those in Christ, doing the will of God are not forgotten, Their names are written in the book of life.

Jesus Is Lord.

you left out verse 17 bro.

Paul didnt say people in christ are perished.
He said they WOULD be IF it were also true that Christ hadn't risen.

 

[David777]

Hello.

1 Corinthians 15

16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.

17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!

18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

Correct Jari, if Christ has not risen those asleep in Christ have perished.

 

[Brother Mike]

Soul Spirit.......

Judge Not.

The soul (psuche) and the spirit (pneuma) are similar in meaning.

So, since they mean the same, we just jam them together? I guess the Holy Spirit wasted some words here, You should let him know that.

Psuche we get our physic, Brain, Conscience, thinking. Psyche English.
Pneuma is a spirit, devils, Angels, GOD.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Soul can also be referred to a whole person. He was a poor soul indeed.

The Holy Spirit Gave 3 parts to man, Soul, Body, and Spirit.

It's our Spirit that gets born again. Not our soul.

Our Spirit comes from God, as I ALREADY posted that Scripture.
God is a Spirit, we are created in His Image.

Get filled with the Holy Spirit, seek tongues, understand what you are.


The Soul is not saved, nor is the body, the body belongs to God.

Paul believed even to the saving of our soul, meaning we keep that part.

Salvation is not of Works, it's the free Gift of the Lord Jesus.


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Word of God is the Anchor to our own thinking and what our Born again spirit knows. The Word brings in line our natural state to the way God thinks.

When we pray in tongues, we don't pray out of our head, or soul, but out of our own spirit.... (I already gave that scripture!!!)

Our Soul is not saved. The bible says we are transformed by the renewing of our mind.........Romans 12:2

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

The Word changes our thinking, Our born again spirit can now Receive revelation from God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The soul is not a spirit, we perish on this earth, our spirit being judged already by our acceptance of Jesus goes to Hell, and awaits final judgement, or we be with the Lord.

There is no such thing as soul sleep, there is a earthly body and a heavenly body, the spirit of man, created like God, in his image.

I gave lots of scriptures already concerning that.

The word Sleep in the bible can mean really sleeping (Alive) or dead, I also gave many examples of that.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jari]

There is no such thing as soul sleep, there is a earthly body and a heavenly body, the spirit of man, created like God, in his image.

we dont goto heaven immidiately bible is clear about this. the judgement day is at end of the world also.
So there kind of have to be soul sleep.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
King James Version (KJV)
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

some are "sleeping".

sleeping doesnt mean snooring and seeing dreams its just word used to say that dead are in unconscious state.

 

[jari]

Our Soul is not saved. The bible says we are transformed by the renewing of our mind.........Romans 12:2

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

The Word changes our thinking, Our born again spirit can now Receive revelation from God.

are you saying that the YOU part is not saved when your saved? your spirit is saved but YOU may still goto hell?

personally i believe Soul = You
spirit is just the life force, its pretty much dead before rebirth.

 

[Fraction]

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

To me it seems like they are talking about a specific group of people here. Those people will obviously be the ones who worship and follow the beast.

Is it possible that this doesn't include the unsaved, and just the worshipers of the beast?

 

[Brother Mike]

Hell, Still real, without Ice water.

Jari.....

If you look at Judge Not's post, Soul

The Greek word is Psuche, for Soul,
which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology")
The mind, or study of the Mind.

Php 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind (Psuche) striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.


Thayer:
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)

In English, it just means the study or power of the mind. I can also be used to mean a whole person.

It's our spirit that gets renewed or born again, we are spirits. We have a soul, or mind. The brain is just amazing tissue Our soul connects to so we can interact with the world. This is why science has a hard time understanding the brain.

We are not saved by works, we accept Jesus, and we are born again. New spirit. Our soul is not saved. It' needs renewed with God's word. That does not mean we don't go to heaven, just means we won't get much from God if we don't get in the Word, and renew or thinking.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.


James tells us to receive the Word, that our souls may be saved. Well, saved so we can resist Filthiness and Naughtiness. Not born again saved, because that part is not by works, or anything we did.

The Word of God is able to separate what is in our spirit connected to the Holy Spirit, and what is in our own thinking. The Word Separates the Soul (our thinking) From our born again spirit (God thinking)
Heb 4:12

========================
Fraction

To me it seems like they are talking about a specific group of people here. Those people will obviously be the ones who worship and follow the beast.

Is it possible that this doesn't include the unsaved, and just the worshipers of the beast?

It can be possible I suppose, it's talking about those people during Tribulation. One would think those people were not saved also though.

But then we have a group of people burning forever because they where at the wrong place and wrong time rejecting God.

God is no respecter of persons, so anyone that obeyed Satan, did not receive Jesus would also be treated the same.

Even now, if we Obey not God, then guess who we are obeying?

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

So, if your a servant to death, then you would receive the same thing those in Tribulation received Who made their master also death.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[judge not]

Judge Not.
So, since they mean the same, we just jam them together? I guess the Holy Spirit wasted some words here, You should let him know that.

Psuche we get our physic, Brain, Conscience, thinking. Psyche English.
Pneuma is a spirit, devils, Angels, GOD.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Soul can also be referred to a whole person. He was a poor soul indeed.

The Holy Spirit Gave 3 parts to man, Soul, Body, and Spirit.

It's our Spirit that gets born again. Not our soul.

Our Spirit comes from God, as I ALREADY posted that Scripture.
God is a Spirit, we are created in His Image.

Get filled with the Holy Spirit, seek tongues, understand what you are.


The Soul is not saved, nor is the body, the body belongs to God.

Paul believed even to the saving of our soul, meaning we keep that part.

Salvation is not of Works, it's the free Gift of the Lord Jesus.


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Word of God is the Anchor to our own thinking and what our Born again spirit knows. The Word brings in line our natural state to the way God thinks.

When we pray in tongues, we don't pray out of our head, or soul, but out of our own spirit.... (I already gave that scripture!!!)

Our Soul is not saved. The bible says we are transformed by the renewing of our mind.........Romans 12:2

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

The Word changes our thinking, Our born again spirit can now Receive revelation from God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The soul is not a spirit, we perish on this earth, our spirit being judged already by our acceptance of Jesus goes to Hell, and awaits final judgement, or we be with the Lord.

There is no such thing as soul sleep, there is a earthly body and a heavenly body, the spirit of man, created like God, in his image.

I gave lots of scriptures already concerning that.

The word Sleep in the bible can mean really sleeping (Alive) or dead, I also gave many examples of that.

Jesus Is Lord.

Spirit, Soul, and Body
1Thess5:23- this text you quoted which seems to teach a tripartite view of man-spirit, soul, and body simply means that Paul hoped the Thessalonians would be wholly, thoroughly prepared for the coming of the Lord.
It's similar to Jesus's saying for emphasis in Mark 12:30- You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength- This does not mean Jesus felt there were four distinct parts to human nature.
As Job says in chapter 34, the spirit is the life force which God breathed into man, which made him a living soul,
And furthermore- Tartaroo (Greek) is used only once in the whole Bible where fallen angels are restrained.
When man is mentioned in regards to a hell the words sheol, hades and
gehenna are applied - we won't be connected to the tartaroo crowd.
Someone asked me how does a spirit experience pain if they are not mortal? What's your answer?
Not that anyone will consider it but the Jewish Encyclopedia regarding immortality of the soul reads " The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is speculation and nowhere expressly taught in Holy scripture. The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek philosophers....."
Why not believe the Bible instead of ancient pagan superstitions

 

[Brother Mike]

Body, soul, Spirit.

Not that anyone will consider it but the Jewish Encyclopedia regarding immortality of the soul reads " The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is speculation and nowhere expressly taught in Holy scripture. The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek philosophers....."
Why not believe the Bible instead of ancient pagan superstitions

I never said once, the soul is immortal.
Now why do I believe Pagan superstitions, instead of the bible?

Why don't you actually read what I posted, examine it, and bring back my own scriptures to me?

You base what I explained, from something you just made up, and never addressed my actual post.

Not much else to do here.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Fraction]

It can be possible I suppose, it's talking about those people during Tribulation. One would think those people were not saved also though. But then we have a group of people burning forever because they where at the wrong place and wrong time rejecting God. God is no respecter of persons, so anyone that obeyed Satan, did not receive Jesus would also be treated the same. Even now, if we Obey not God, then guess who we are obeying? Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? So, if your a servant to death, then you would receive the same thing those in Tribulation received Who made their master also death.

I see what you're saying. I am not challenging you, but I am actually interested in your belief. Thank you for answering my post.

 

[jari]

We are not saved by works, we accept Jesus, and we are born again. New spirit. Our soul is not saved. It' needs renewed with God's word. That does not mean we don't go to heaven, just means we won't get much from God if we don't get in the Word, and renew or thinking.

spirit is not us. Soul is you. thats the way i see it...

and soul is saved but spirit is quickened (made alive)