I recently learned about a Pastor in one of our local American Baptist Churches that is living in an open, monogomous, sexual relationship with another man. After doing some research I found his church's website and viewed a video where he speaks very openly about his "partner" and how much they enjoy being with one another. Learning of this situation within my own denomination left my heart hurting badly, so I raised the issue via a formal paper and presented it to my leadership (pastor, regional, national). I was very respectful and I did not slander the Pastor in question in any way, nor did I come from a position of judgment. I simply asked, after presentingnthe scriptural evidence of the sinfulness of committing homosexual acts, how it is possible that this man is pastoring a church. I have been left very confused by their responses, as I have been taught repeatedly by them about the authority of Scripture, repentance, accountability, etc. I was firmly rebuked by my Pastor, our regional Executive Minister, and our National General Secretary for "judging" this man, and told that I should be more concerned about myself and my own sin. My Pastor (who is a good, godly servant of Christ, and one of my best friends) went so far as to call an emergency meeting of our church governing board to openly renounce my "actions" (all I did was submit a paper to our leadership). My heart is broken in two. I love my church family dearly, but now word about my paper has leaked (some of them have admittedly even read it) out in to our congregation and now I am being ostrecized by everyone I talk to. They keep telling me that I need to love everyone, but I never once said that I don't love this gay Pastor. They keep telling me that I need to pick the plank out of my eye and stop worrying about the speck in his, but I do not have the "plank" of homosexual acts in my eye. They keep telling me that it's not my place to judge him, but I honestly don't feel like I have, it is the Word that condemns homosexual acts, not me. I honestly wouldn't care about the issue at all if the Bible didn't openly and explicitly condemn it. I feel completely alone in my convictions about this issue. Please help.
Homosexual Pastors?
- Thread starter Larry.
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I agree with you about homosexuality being wrong, and I know you did the right thing. The best thing you can to is pray for direction in the issue, wither it be to stand up for the truth in your church or leave for another, one who follows the word of God rather than trying to please people.
Unfortunately, I fear a time in the near future the true shepherds of the flock will be Concerned Christians who stand up as volunteer pastors and almost all of the preachers who studied the word of God in a college, bible community college or university will either be be only in it for money and feel-goodness, or compromised.
Unfortunately, I fear a time in the near future the true shepherds of the flock will be Concerned Christians who stand up as volunteer pastors and almost all of the preachers who studied the word of God in a college, bible community college or university will either be be only in it for money and feel-goodness, or compromised.
amadeus2
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Your situation is at best a very difficult one. The flesh would immediately respond, leave that place, but, I believe that you must carefully seek the Lord on this. There are some very good reasons why a person should pack up his bags and leave a place, but as a servant of God, you need to be certain that it is His will for you. Regardless of how wrong others may really be, sometimes, God does put people into places in order to accomplish His purposes. For example, the natural children of Israel were supposed to go to Egypt even though God knew of the difficult road they would have to follow there before finally being led by Him out of that place.
You may receive a lot of advice from many different people on this, but ultimately only you can decide in the end of the matter. I do strongly suggest that you pray carefully for God to give you direction. If you are into fasting at all, that would not be a bad thing either.
God does have an answer for you. You must simply be in a place with Him where you can recognize His voice when He gives you His answer. His sheep know His voice. Be one of His sheep along this road!
I will be keeping you in my prayers.
You may receive a lot of advice from many different people on this, but ultimately only you can decide in the end of the matter. I do strongly suggest that you pray carefully for God to give you direction. If you are into fasting at all, that would not be a bad thing either.
God does have an answer for you. You must simply be in a place with Him where you can recognize His voice when He gives you His answer. His sheep know His voice. Be one of His sheep along this road!
I will be keeping you in my prayers.
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So, it turns out that I stumbled onto quite a problem within not only my former denomination (my family and I decided to end our ministerial partnership with the ABC-USA), but with many denominations across America. There are thousands of churches in the U.S. that have adopted an "open and affirming" doctrine. This means that they have concluded that it is not a sin to commit homosexual acts. This has been done by creatively interpreting the Bible to fit the needs of the LGBT community. I am left wondering whether the modern Church even considers the Bible to be the truly authoritative, divinely inspired Word of God.
amadeus2
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"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" COl 1:25-27
Men and organizations may have their place, but the Christ within us must be our greatest Hope! If we trust in Him, He will never fail us!
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Hello Larry. God bless you (He will) for making a stand against the abominations of society today
The word of God has much to say on the matter.......I am sure you will have included such in your 'paper'
But here's a couple, that come to mind.
Leviticus 18 : 22
22 "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
Leviticus 20 : 13
13 "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
This is the LOrd God Almighty speaking.......and His words still stand today
The word of God has much to say on the matter.......I am sure you will have included such in your 'paper'
But here's a couple, that come to mind.
Leviticus 18 : 22
22 "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.
Leviticus 20 : 13
13 "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.
This is the LOrd God Almighty speaking.......and His words still stand today
Stephen, I would post my paper on here but it is quite long (11 pages). Basically, I made the scriptural case against homosexual acts using three New Testament references from 1Corinthians, Romans, and 1Timothy. I used only NT scripture because, by and large, the modern church considers most of the OT Law to be "non-binding" for New Covenant believers (a stance that I do not wholly agree with). At the conclusion of my argument I called for the dismissal of this church from our denomination, as their doctrine is completely out of line with ABC-USA Statement of Faith, and has been so for over 20 years.
Larry: I have attempted to respond to you note three times. My wife and I hold two Master degrees each from a ABC Seminary. We ministered with me as Pastor in two ABC churches. I have been a Pastor of a Southern Baptist Church and a Conserative Baptist Church as well. So I can tell you that there is no perfect denomination. But when a Denomination permits and condones homosexual Pastors, you must take a stand. Either you remain quiet and show your support, or you take a Biblical stand. Larry, you have a responsibility as a Bible believing Christian to bring this sinful situation before the denominational leaders of your region.
You have done as Scripture requires us to do in Matthew 18, those who support this homosexuality are totally wrong. Satan has taken a good number of denominations and gotten them to say what is bad is good. Scripture warns us of this, and low and behold here it is. Now we need to be careful and be aware that we are to hate the sin, not the one held in the trap of satan.
My wife and I had to take a solid stand against homosexuals serving in any church office, let alone as a pastor. I was Pastoring a ABC church and the region I was in permited and blessed a homosexual pastor. We faced a brick wall and what we said had no impact. We saw no option but to leave the ABC. This has been very painful and we miss so many things, like Green Lake and Mission conferences ans so forth.
Larry it's not just homosexuality, but and sexual sin, or greed, and there are more issues as well. I encourage you to find a Bible believing Church, and slowly allow God to lead you elsewhere. We have found the Southern Baptist sem to fit us best. I hope this helps. But satan has taken foot hold in many liberal places. Pray for your friends and be strong. You have done theright thing, well done Larry.
You have done as Scripture requires us to do in Matthew 18, those who support this homosexuality are totally wrong. Satan has taken a good number of denominations and gotten them to say what is bad is good. Scripture warns us of this, and low and behold here it is. Now we need to be careful and be aware that we are to hate the sin, not the one held in the trap of satan.
My wife and I had to take a solid stand against homosexuals serving in any church office, let alone as a pastor. I was Pastoring a ABC church and the region I was in permited and blessed a homosexual pastor. We faced a brick wall and what we said had no impact. We saw no option but to leave the ABC. This has been very painful and we miss so many things, like Green Lake and Mission conferences ans so forth.
Larry it's not just homosexuality, but and sexual sin, or greed, and there are more issues as well. I encourage you to find a Bible believing Church, and slowly allow God to lead you elsewhere. We have found the Southern Baptist sem to fit us best. I hope this helps. But satan has taken foot hold in many liberal places. Pray for your friends and be strong. You have done theright thing, well done Larry.
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You did the right thing Larry. Let GOD judge each and everyone individually, which He will in the end.
If someone knows the truth (bible) and rejects it, twists it to their customized liking - they will pay the price. You cannot force anyone to be obedient or believe in Jesus and His Word. You can pray for them, but remember also what the Word says:
2 Timothy 3:1-14
"... in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
"...all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned..."
Romans 1:18-32
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
If someone knows the truth (bible) and rejects it, twists it to their customized liking - they will pay the price. You cannot force anyone to be obedient or believe in Jesus and His Word. You can pray for them, but remember also what the Word says:
2 Timothy 3:1-14
"... in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
"...all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned..."
Romans 1:18-32
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Strypes
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I believe we should reach out to those in sexual sin, we should be welcoming of the person but not the sin.
Those that indulge in pornography and those that have casual heterosexual sex are just as guilty before God as adulterers and gays and lesbians and bisexuals and cowards and the ungodly and the gluttons and and and and and...
1 Corinthians 6:19 says to "Flee Fornication"
We shouldn't call wrong, right or right, wrong and we should all remember that we are all sinners saved by the grace of God. Their sin is not more sinful than the sin from which God has delivered us.
But we should not employ a double standard or have "pet sins" with which we sling judgement at lost souls. We should drop our stones and love like Jesus did.
There is a lyric in a song by Casting Crowns that goes
"The world is on their way to you but they are tripping over me"
I think we all have tripped up someone with our bigotry and our indignant self righteousness from time to time. We should repent and trust the Holy Spirit to do the work in them that he did in us to help us be free.
"Jesus, friend of sinners, open our eyes to the world at the end of our pointing fingers
Let our hearts be lead by mercy. Help us reach with open hearts and open doors
Jesus friend of sinners, break our hearts for what breaks yours.
Nobody knows what we are for only what we are against when we judge the wounded
If we put down our signs and crossed over the lines and love like you did."
Talk Jesus | Christian Forums - Casting Crowns - Jesus, Friend of Sinners
(TJ link)
We should speak the truth of scripture to those that ask, without compromise. But what good comes from casting stones at those that are seeking a relationship with Jesus? Can we accept the person and trust God will deal with them individually to bring them to wholeness in Him?
Those that indulge in pornography and those that have casual heterosexual sex are just as guilty before God as adulterers and gays and lesbians and bisexuals and cowards and the ungodly and the gluttons and and and and and...
1 Corinthians 6:19 says to "Flee Fornication"
We shouldn't call wrong, right or right, wrong and we should all remember that we are all sinners saved by the grace of God. Their sin is not more sinful than the sin from which God has delivered us.
But we should not employ a double standard or have "pet sins" with which we sling judgement at lost souls. We should drop our stones and love like Jesus did.
There is a lyric in a song by Casting Crowns that goes
"The world is on their way to you but they are tripping over me"
I think we all have tripped up someone with our bigotry and our indignant self righteousness from time to time. We should repent and trust the Holy Spirit to do the work in them that he did in us to help us be free.
"Jesus, friend of sinners, open our eyes to the world at the end of our pointing fingers
Let our hearts be lead by mercy. Help us reach with open hearts and open doors
Jesus friend of sinners, break our hearts for what breaks yours.
Nobody knows what we are for only what we are against when we judge the wounded
If we put down our signs and crossed over the lines and love like you did."
Talk Jesus | Christian Forums - Casting Crowns - Jesus, Friend of Sinners
(TJ link)
We should speak the truth of scripture to those that ask, without compromise. But what good comes from casting stones at those that are seeking a relationship with Jesus? Can we accept the person and trust God will deal with them individually to bring them to wholeness in Him?
Strypes
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On the website of CumberlandFBC (Larry's church/former church) under "about us" they say...
"The Bible, while our sourcebook, is not a recipe book for life. Pat answers no longer satisfy."
That is what would concern me. Not what others at another fellowship of believers are doing.
"The Bible, while our sourcebook, is not a recipe book for life. Pat answers no longer satisfy."
That is what would concern me. Not what others at another fellowship of believers are doing.
amadeus2
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Again we see people using the Bible, but still not understanding what God is saying. Where is the Holy Spirit? It is not into "pat answers", but into the answers that God has for you and for me, right now.
Strypes,
You said, and I agree with you that, "We shouldn't call wrong, right or right, wrong and we should all remember that we are all sinners saved by the grace of God. Their sin is not more sinful than the sin from which God has delivered us.
But we should not employ a double standard or have "pet sins" with which we sling judgement at lost souls. We should drop our stones and love like Jesus did."
This is, as I have stated above, not a matter of whether or not "sinners" should be welcomed and loved within the Church. It is rather a matter of adherence to biblical Truth, regardless of whether or nor it happens to fit the current and ever-changing societal norms. The message and redeeming work of Jesus Christ on Calvary is defamed and discredited when stand idly by and allow lies to be taught and practiced within our churches. The Spirit within me is grieved immensely when I learn of such things, and I have a God-given responsibility to speak out in defense of the Bible whenever it's Truth is being twisted to suit the needs of a rebellious few. I have no "pet sins", but rather a firm conviction that all sins are defined in the Bible; some of them explicitly (i.e. theft, adultery, sexual immorality), while others must be wrought with a bit more of an exegetical approach (i.e. smoking, abortion, masturbation). And while I can understand some doctrinal differences will always exist with regard to sins that are somewhat biblically ambiguous, we have no right to condone what is expressly condemned by God in the Bible.
You said, and I agree with you that, "We shouldn't call wrong, right or right, wrong and we should all remember that we are all sinners saved by the grace of God. Their sin is not more sinful than the sin from which God has delivered us.
But we should not employ a double standard or have "pet sins" with which we sling judgement at lost souls. We should drop our stones and love like Jesus did."
This is, as I have stated above, not a matter of whether or not "sinners" should be welcomed and loved within the Church. It is rather a matter of adherence to biblical Truth, regardless of whether or nor it happens to fit the current and ever-changing societal norms. The message and redeeming work of Jesus Christ on Calvary is defamed and discredited when stand idly by and allow lies to be taught and practiced within our churches. The Spirit within me is grieved immensely when I learn of such things, and I have a God-given responsibility to speak out in defense of the Bible whenever it's Truth is being twisted to suit the needs of a rebellious few. I have no "pet sins", but rather a firm conviction that all sins are defined in the Bible; some of them explicitly (i.e. theft, adultery, sexual immorality), while others must be wrought with a bit more of an exegetical approach (i.e. smoking, abortion, masturbation). And while I can understand some doctrinal differences will always exist with regard to sins that are somewhat biblically ambiguous, we have no right to condone what is expressly condemned by God in the Bible.
Strypes
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You can placate your righteous indignation for demanding the removal of a pastor at ANOTHER church if you like.
Jesus said .. "he who is without sin, cast the first stone".. I say we should drop the stones, because we have all sinned and need Jesus. I am certain that I would not be "good enough" by your standards, and I thank God I don't have to be.
Jesus said .. "he who is without sin, cast the first stone".. I say we should drop the stones, because we have all sinned and need Jesus. I am certain that I would not be "good enough" by your standards, and I thank God I don't have to be.
Strypes
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So what does the Bible say about such situations?
FIRST, go to the brother and correct him privately....right?
If he doesn't respond well then take another brother with you and together help him to see the error....right?
Then take it before the fellowship of believers and if he still will not see the error then have nothing more to do with them... right?... (Matthew 18)
Jesus never said that if the leaders of a denomination set policy not to exclude anybody from their fellowship you should gossip about them to the whole world.. Now did he?
I understand that you feel justified in your demand for the Gay Pastor's resignation. It is the policy of that denomination to embrace him. He is the pastor at another fellowship. If you have done that which Jesus instructed us at Matthew 18 and it is the policy of that denomination to allow the Pastor to remain. Then you leave and have nothing more to do with them. Find a fellowship of like minded believers and let it go.
What Jesus accomplished on the Cross can never be undone.
The words and opinions of mortal man can never undo what Jesus did for us, all of us.
Jesus did not instruct us to stand idly by, he instructed us to go to that person and to follow His instructions and if it is not resolved then to have nothing more to do with them.
I realize many here have patted you on the back for demanding the Pastor's resignation. I understand that Pastor's will be held to a higher standard according to scripture. Once you have followed the instructions of Matthew 18, trust God to deal with them.
"The message and redeeming work of Jesus Christ on Calvary is defamed and discredited" regularly on different news media. Are you going to demand they fire all the news anchors? or will you just change the channel?
Strypes
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I didn't mean that I felt hypocritical about 99% of my posts... just this part..
"Jesus never said that if the leaders of a denomination set policy not to exclude anybody from their fellowship you should gossip about them to the whole world.. Now did he?"~Strypes
That is what I feel a wee bit hypocritical about
The leaders of the Watchtower set policies/doctrines for their followers that are despicable. I will continue to call them out on it every chance I get. That is one of the things that God has called me to do. You do what God has given you to do. Your battle is not mine to fight, but I can support you in prayer.
Strypes,
I honestly did not intend to enter in to a debate with you. Maybe you misinterpreted the tone of my message? I thought, and I said that I agreed with you. The standards that I am speaking of are not of my own mind or conclusions. Rather, it is the Truth and authority of the Bible that I am advocating. Also, it was my business to speak out, as this church is a part of my denomination (technically, former now). And I did fulfill the requirements of Matthew 18.
I honestly did not intend to enter in to a debate with you. Maybe you misinterpreted the tone of my message? I thought, and I said that I agreed with you. The standards that I am speaking of are not of my own mind or conclusions. Rather, it is the Truth and authority of the Bible that I am advocating. Also, it was my business to speak out, as this church is a part of my denomination (technically, former now). And I did fulfill the requirements of Matthew 18.
