Homosexual Pastors?

[bestrfcplayer]

Cant you see that in your stance, you are judging as well?! Judgement is in itself not evil, its the standards by which you judge that may or may not be evil. Why is it that you pick and chose certain parts of scripture, to try and make your point, and ignore the others that speak against the topic? Take scripture as a whole, not piece meal as it pleases you. And as someone else said, Love is always good, but sexual pleasure is NOT Love, and you demean Love to equate it so.

While yes, I do agree that I am judging, you are as well. We all judge each other at some point. Either positive judgement or negative judgement, or in between judgement. Mine is in between judgement, which is not judging you harshly, or badly, or goodly.

@Fenn How is my example relevant to murder. Most of us know murder is wrong, and avoid it. It's two different things.

 

[Fenn]

How is my example relevant to murder. Most of us know murder is wrong, and avoid it. It's two different things.

My example was to show your logic. You were saying that people have twisted the Word of God in the past to justify yourself doing it. I was showing that logically it isn't a valid argument.
An action being right or wrong is not dependent on what was done in the past.

 

[bestrfcplayer]

My example was to show your logic. You were saying that people have twisted the Word of God in the past to justify yourself doing it. I was showing that logically it isn't a valid argument.
An action being right or wrong is not dependent on what was done in the past.

My bad. I didn't see what you were trying to convey with your example. But, was I really twisting the Bible in a bad way? Not really (at least to me). I mean, you twisted it to fit your view as well.

 

[B-A-C]

Well, I know that. But shouldn't the Bible adapt to modern times? Maybe back then in ancient Israel, the people thought homosexuality was sin and a destructive lifestyle, but today, things have changed. And besides, Jesus never talked about homosexuality, and would have accepted gays if they came to him back then, and he would accept them if he were alive today.

So God should adapt to what men think is right? Some men think adultery is OK, some men think pornography is OK, some men think abortion is OK, some men think murder is OK.
Some men think lying, stealing, cheating, physical abuse, child molesting , are OK. These kinds of people were around in Jesus time, and they were around before Jesus' time.
They were around in the old testament, you might want to check out the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 to see what God thought of it back then.

Jesus accepted many sinners when they came to him, tax collectors, prostitutes, murderers, etc... but he told them to repent. He told them to "sin no more".
Maybe instead of having God (the creator of the universe) bow down to mans will. We should bow down to his will? Did he create us, or did we create him?

 

[bestrfcplayer]

So God should adapt to what men think is right? Some men think adultery is OK, some men think pornography is OK, some men think abortion is OK, some men think murder is OK.
Some men think lying, stealing, cheating, physical abuse, child molesting , are OK. These kinds of people were around in Jesus time, and they were around before Jesus' time.
They were around in the old testament, you might want to check out the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 to see what God thought it back then.

Jesus accepted many sinners when they came to him, tax collectors, prostitutes, murderers, etc... but he told them to repent. He told them to "sin no more".
Maybe instead of having bow down to mans will. We should bow down to his will? Did he create us, or did we create him?

That not really what I ment. I would imagine if God adapted to what man thought was right, he would adapt to what man thought was right as a WHOLE, not selected people. As a whole, humanity thinks those things are wrong now days. As technology has advanced, so have our morals and values. At one time, the Israelites thought killing people for adultery and homosexuality were right, now we know (at least In Most places) that killing people for those reasons is wrong (thus the advocation to abolish the death penanilty, which I myself am against the death penality).

 

[Fenn]

My bad. I didn't see what you were trying to convey with your example. But, was I really twisting the Bible in a bad way? Not really (at least to me). I mean, you twisted it to fit your view as well.

Not a problem. I may not have been as clear as I could have. Sometimes I write something and some of the info stays in my head.

Regarding you twisting the Bible in a bad way. I didn't say that you twisted the Bible, you did. I was merely saying that your excuse for twisting the Bible wasn't a good one.
I don't think there is a good way to twist the Bible. If you have to twist the Bible to say what you want, then it isn't right.

In what way did I twist the Bible to fit my view? You said that people have been twisting the Bible to say what they want and I quoted scripture that said it would happen. It agreed with what you wrote, it just didn't condone that action.

 

[bestrfcplayer]

Not a problem. I may not have been as clear as I could have. Sometimes I write something and some of the info stays in my head.

Regarding you twisting the Bible in a bad way. I didn't say that you twisted the Bible, you did. I was merely saying that your excuse for twisting the Bible wasn't a good one.
I don't think there is a good way to twist the Bible. If you have to twist the Bible to say what you want, then it isn't right.

In what way did I twist the Bible to fit my view? You said that people have been twisting the Bible to say what they want and I quoted scripture that said it would happen. It agreed with what you wrote, it just didn't condone that action.

Oh. Kinda took things a bit too out of context there. My bad again.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@bestrfcplayer,

First let me preface this with I love you :thumbs_up

Hope you're not feeling ganged up on :thumbs_do

Normally, I like to take a gander at the individuals bio, to try to get a little inkling of where they might be coming from. RC makes it very difficult at times to deal with certain subjects, but not so much in this case. Not that I'm going to reference their stance on the subject. Let me enjoinder a different way than has not from what I can tell been used so far.

I normally see the subject of God choosing what is acceptable for His Children in the way a parent who loves their children does (Yes I am a parent of two.). First the parent should (I say should, since I have seen some parents who leave me questioning if it's not the other way around in what I'm about to say. have a knowledge/experience base that far out distances the child they are rearing. This allows that the parent is aware of what will damage or hurt a child in advance of any action done by the child. Now the parent has the ability to communicate the entire reasoning behind the decision, but the child might not have the ability to comprehend the "why" of the warning being given (Still learning/Small knowledge base). That is why the warning needs to be sufficient unto its self at times (Adam & Eve with the tree example might work here). We as earthly parents have finite years to deal with our children's questions along with corrections and still fail miserably at the task. Thankfully God has an eternity to deal with His Children. To help the process along He has also provided a guide for understanding (Holy Spirit through revelation.), His Word through the inspired writers of the bible the vehicle by which we are given the "warning" to those He has called to be His.

bestrfcplayer, we are those children who call Jesus Christ, Lord, and Savior. As with children, they all learn at different speeds. Some quickly so as not to get burned, while others not so much so. Those normally require some time to heal from the lesson learned. Sadly, we do have a tendency to have repeat offenders. More troubling, is that we even have some who play at make "belief" (A little play on the word "believe") Yet everything being said and done I'm sure the one thing we can agree with is, we are rarely the best evaluators of what is right or wrong when it comes to behavior that is beneficial to us, when left to our own devices (Outside of scriptural guidance.). Personally once I was saved my behavior didn't change. I didn't stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, womanizing. One does not change overnight. Some might, and those are the ones truly blessed. Others, which I am one. It took time. Years to be precise. Not that I'm perfect yet (One day, and not on my own!), but it doesn't mean I accept the condition reflected by my behavior which my Father Who art in heaven would not approve of. It's like some believe that once we're saved the work or the learning stops!!!

That being said. The problem man has, which one can see from Genesis 3 till now. Like any obstinate child we really do think we know better! Man has for the most part, a desire to be on equal footing with God. To call the shots. Decide what is right or wrong, of cause not if it's pleasurable or doing no harm that "we" can see. So if His Word has an admonishment about something that we enjoy doing, we will attempt to find a way to do it. Even if means twisting, turning, omitting, or just plan ignoring what His Word says. Man will do it. Add to that "Satan" who is no help what so ever. What do you have? People saying he's a "Loving God" (Which He is.), but forgetting to include that He is also, HOLY (Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter 1:16 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. Revelation 15:4), GOOD (Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD [is] good: blessed [is] the man [that] trusteth in him. Psalm 119:68 Thou [art] good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes. Psalm 52:1..... the goodness of God [endureth] continually. ), JUST (Standard: Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Punishment: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.). There are so many more attributes that are God that it leaves me speechless because if we continue to read the Bible we'd continue to find them all through His Holy Word!!!!!! I'm glad we'll have eternal life to get to know Him! (John 17:3)

We stop at love and attempt to define it as all inclusive, regardless of what we see in scripture to the contrary. I like to ask if we see it often enough in the light of sacrifice? We all know, or mostly all know John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Yet seem to forget that submitting to His will is also showing our love for Him. Remember Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane praying? Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Submission! Tough for us humans! Even in the light of our own salvation!

Now you may not see anything wrong with homosexuality, or stealing if you're hungry and need to feed your family, or any number of other situational stories we can come up with for rationalizing the things that we believe or do that go against His Holy Word in which we personally see a need to justify. Yet in truth. What's important is not what "we" define as being right or wrong, but what does God have to say about it. As His Children, He does love us, but I'm sure does not approve of everything that we do. That's why we get disciplined when we do wrong (Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.) Let's pray that we don't knowingly or unknowingly lead anyone astray, by only extracting the parts we approve of. So where do we go to find out the rest of the story? Yep, the Holy Bible. Not piece meal, but in total.

Well, I've already written half a book and I hope some of it helps you see it a bit differently.
One final thought

Did you notice I didn't cover the non-believer?
The reason I didn't cover them is that there is more than immoral behavior that should be concerning them. The sad part is that they're not overly concerned.

C4E

 

[brakelite]

As always @Christ4Ever a well written reasoned and scriptural answer.
@ bestrfcplayer A RC who supports homosexuality. Liberal indeed! lol. I also was raised a Roman catholic and was educated within Catholic schools. I understand that the scriptures are not the final authority for faith and practice for the practicing Roman Catholic, but rather, and this may sound rather blunt and strange to your ears, but I know of no other way to express this, your final authority as a Catholic is what the church says what the scriptures say. I am now an avowed Protestant, thus I am unsure how to approach you because we come from different perspectives as far as authority is concerned. I could quote scripture as the basis for my faith, but you would need to affirm my understanding of that scripture with your church before accepting my understanding. The church is your final authority therefore, unless as a liberal you are more inclined to dispense with church authority and explore the scriptures for yourself, and if this is so, I commend you for this.
I often find myself agreeing with Christ4Ever whenever he writes on these forums. He uses scripture consatntly as the foundation for his beliefs, and has a way of expressing himself that is infused with a love and compassion that I admire. You would do well to listen to him.
If you are inclined to use scripture as your basis for belief, then allow me to explain a little of what that means. Paul wrote to Timothy: 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction for righteousness. When Paul wrote this he only had the OT as a reference as the NT writings had not yet been formerly established. The OT scriptures to what Paul was referring as being inspired by God are the very same scriptures which guided Israel in her abhorrance of homosexuality, and led to Moses condemnation of that practice. God does not change with time. What was morally reprehensable then, is no different today. What God condemns then He condemns today. Yes, Jesus would have welcomed the homosexual into His presence when He was walking this earth, and I am sure may have met some. But as Christ4Ever said, He most assuredly would have told such to go and sin no more. He would have given them the power to change their lives, and make them conformable to God's standards, as He is willing to do all today for those who come to Him in faith. The question we must ask ourselves is "are we willing". Are we willing to walk in righteousness and holiness according to God's standard rather than man's?