I don't believe a loving God would send people to hell.....

[Jesus_is_LORD]

IF people go to hell, do they go in their bodies?

One verse which comes to mind is Matthew 18:9
which reads,

"And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

I am fully aware that at times Jesus spoke in hyperbole to make a point, and perhaps this was one such example (because I don't think there will be anyone in heaven with one eye, lol),
however maybe even if it is hyperbole about the state of our bodies in heaven or hell, perhaps it points to the fact that in hell people will be in their bodies.
What are your thoughts brother?

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Revelation 20:11-15

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.read more. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Something I love about the Bible are the subtle points.
For example, the verse above mentions the second death and those who are "thrown" in the lake of fire.
Can you throw a spirit? Or is the word throw more appropriate for a "body".
I think about spirits being sent or cast out, etc, Never heard the word "thrown" used in the Bible in conjunction with
a spirit.

Thrown
projected; propelled; hurled: He has been thrown into prison.
Not to be confused with:
throne – the chair occupied by a sovereign or other exalted person on ceremonial occasions

Interesting in the dictionary when it speaks of thrown (see above), it mentions, "not to be confused with throne".
I find that fascinating, as we are speaking of the Throne of God from which people will be thrown into the
lake of fire. Can't make this stuff up. God's WORD is amazing.

 

[B-A-C]

One question is, why would it be in a different state?
Before departing, did Jesus have a 'glorified' body?


However, regarding the thread, IF people go to hell, do they go in their bodies?
What age are the bodies that either get raised to life or sent to hell? Does it matter?

Lots of questions and i don't want to hijack what was and has been discussed, so don't feel compelled to answer. We can tackle it another time.

one more question, though... is it a 'grey area' or do we find clarity in Scripture about same body, different state?
Question for everyone.

Perhaps one to keep in mind as the discussion continues. God is well able to make a way that is right for all these things, so we don't need to rush things.

1. Why is a different state, quite simply, because the Bible says so.

This passage has been posted several times here, but no one seems to read it.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We will be changed, we will be different, it doesn't get any plainer than that.
1Cor 15 talks about the changes, immortal vs mortal, imperishable vs perishable, a natural body vs a spiritual body. Some of these are self explanatory.

2. Did Jesus has a glorifed body? This is the most debatable question in your list.
John 20:16; Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).
John 20:17; Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Many take this to mean, Jesus wasn't yet glorifed.
John 7:39; But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Now while Jesus didn't want Mary Magdalene to touch Him (or at least "cling" to Him) He later (on the same day) invited some of the disciples to touch Him, specifically Thomas. ( Luke 24:39; John 20:27; )
Does that mean He was glorified? John 20:17; says He hadn't ascended into heaven yet. In fact there is no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus ascended during the 40 days (Acts 1:3; )
after the resurrection. Jesus doesn't ascend to heaven until Acts 1:9-11; ) Revelation 5:6; seems to say Jesus may still have wounds and scars upon His body?
Every single prominent Bible scholar I am aware of believes Jesus will return in the flesh. ( Acts 1:11; ) But He is likely an exception. Whatever our new bodies are like, they won't have
pain for one thing. And they won't die anymore.

Rev 21:4; and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection

3. What age? I don't think the Bible specifically says. Many assume a "prime of life age" usually late 20's or early 30's. But as far as I know, this is strictly assumption.

4. I don't see it as a grey area. Different is different, this body is mortal, this body will decay. If flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom, that seems to say, it's not flesh and blood.
I don't see any way this can be argued or construed any differently.

 

[Beetow]

I wonder if this for the already saved saints, or for "the nations" of unsaved people
on the earth.

Prior to the demolition of the present cosmos, and construction of a new one,
everything and everyone that's dead to God will be discarded in the lake of fire.

• Rev 20:14 . . And death . . . was cast into the lake of fire.

Seeing as how unsaved folks are dead on the hoof, and will end up discarded in the
lake of fire prior to the construction of the new heavens and the new earth, then
they will not be counted among the nations spoken of in either the twenty-first or
the twenty-second chapters of Revelation.

NOTE: The Greek word translated "nation" is ethnos (eth'-nos) which means a race
and/or a culture. So the world to come after the world we live in now will be
populated with every kind and color of human known to Man; which is why the
invitation below is extended to "whoever"

• Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say: Come! And let him who hears say:
Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the
free gift of the water of life
_

 

[B-A-C]

Seeing as how unsaved folks are dead on the hoof, and will end up discarded in the
lake of fire prior to the construction of the new heavens and the new earth, then
they will not be counted among the nations spoken of in either the twenty-first or
the twenty-second chapters of Revelation.

I say this is speculation.
It's very possible new generations of humankind (some even unbelievers) will be on the New Earth.
The New Earth appears before the New Jerusalem comes down.

Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

However when New Jerusalem appears (after the New Earth is here)

Rev 22:14; Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

There will still be sinners outside the New Jerusalem.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Seems like we are reaching some solid points here,

Started with what people mean when they say "I don't think a loving God would....."

To the existence of a soul/spirit...

To what type of bodies we will have....

God stuff, great discussion.

 

[B-A-C]

To what type of bodies we will have....

Jude 1:9; But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Now it seems that at some point Michael and Satan were fighting over the body of Moses. We aren't given a timeline for this.
Moses dies in Deut 34;7; This would have been thousands of years ago. Even thousands of years before the book of Jude was written.
But did Moses's body decay and return to the dust, or was there a special case for Moses? What kind of body did Moses have on the mount of transfiguration?
I don't know, But it seems there were three (bodies?) or tamgible somethings on the mountain. One was Jesus of course. Elijah possibly never died a physical death
as he was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire.( 2 Kings 2:11; ) so that leaves Moses. What happened to his body?

On a side note: The NLT Bible puts this part about Michael and Satan and the body of Moses in parenthesis, as if it wasn't in many manuscripts. And yet, it is in all known manuscripts.
For this reason no other Bibles put in in parenthesis. I wonder why this is?

 

[Beetow]

There will still be sinners outside the New Jerusalem.

It appears to me that the sinners listed at Rev 22:15 are the self-same sinners
listed at Rev 21:8.

It also appears to me that "outside" refers to outcasts-- i.e. exiles --whose
destination is the lake of fire; which would certainly be a strong incentive.

• Heb 6:4-8 . . For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have
tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have
tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come: If they shall fall
away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the
Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

. . . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth
forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But
that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose
end is to be burned.
_

 

[Gregoryp]

1. Why is a different state, quite simply, because the Bible says so.

This passage has been posted several times here, but no one seems to read it.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We will be changed, we will be different, it doesn't get any plainer than that.
1Cor 15 talks about the changes, immortal vs mortal, imperishable vs perishable, a natural body vs a spiritual body. Some of these are self explanatory.

2. Did Jesus has a glorifed body? This is the most debatable question in your list.
John 20:16; Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him in Hebrew, “Rabboni!” (which means, Teacher).
John 20:17; Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Many take this to mean, Jesus wasn't yet glorifed.
John 7:39; But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Now while Jesus didn't want Mary Magdalene to touch Him (or at least "cling" to Him) He later (on the same day) invited some of the disciples to touch Him, specifically Thomas. ( Luke 24:39; John 20:27; )
Does that mean He was glorified? John 20:17; says He hadn't ascended into heaven yet. In fact there is no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus ascended during the 40 days (Acts 1:3; )
after the resurrection. Jesus doesn't ascend to heaven until Acts 1:9-11; ) Revelation 5:6; seems to say Jesus may still have wounds and scars upon His body?
Every single prominent Bible scholar I am aware of believes Jesus will return in the flesh. ( Acts 1:11; ) But He is likely an exception. Whatever our new bodies are like, they won't have
pain for one thing. And they won't die anymore.

Rev 21:4; and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection

3. What age? I don't think the Bible specifically says. Many assume a "prime of life age" usually late 20's or early 30's. But as far as I know, this is strictly assumption.

4. I don't see it as a grey area. Different is different, this body is mortal, this body will decay. If flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom, that seems to say, it's not flesh and blood.
I don't see any way this can be argued or construed any differently.

Flesh and blood is a metaphor. It means worldly thinking, behaviours etc. Your way is not his way. Only Gods spirit within you (the Holy Spirit) can share the inheritance, and many do not have in them, despite there protestations otherwise.

 

[B-A-C]

Flesh and blood is a metaphor. It means worldly thinking, behaviours etc. Your way is not his way. Only Gods spirit within you (the Holy Spirit) can share the inheritance, and many do not have in them, despite there protestations otherwise.

Spiritual metaphors in the Bible never disagree with physical reality. In fact the reason it "IS" a metaphor is because it's comparing the physical to the spiritual.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings Brother,

about being clothed... or not

I am reminded of Adam and Eve in the Garden after eating the fruit they were told not to.

Without getting into the how, who or why, too much, they were naked and the Lord provided clothing for them.
Is it possible that the Apostle was aware of that and if so, that we can link the unclothed state to the Garden situation? Of course, Jesus and through faith in Him, provides clothing we can not acquire ourselves and the forgiveness we need to be 'eligible' to wear the robes He provides for those who love Him.

To interpret this, a little, it was sin that was being dealt with, so to speak.
We do not want to be found unclothed as Adam was, due to sin.... but we desire and have our hope in Him Who will clothe us because of the forgiveness of sin and pardon received through faith.

An all round encouragement to the believers he was addressing? As well as a lesson and as mentioned prior to this post, it was something 'in the face' of the going belief that was the standard and accepted teaching of the day, as you have tried to explain.


Bless you ....><>

The thought that comes to mind is, does that fit the context? How does that fit Paul's argument?

 

[Butch5]

Greetings,

Do you mind if i say yes or no? [you didn't actually ask me to! ]

I suppose there is a lot of guess work regarding this. Equally lots of attempts to prove those guesses. [not referring to anyone here - it is one of those questions that have been around a long time and with the world wide webbing, there are untold variants and oodles of copy-pastes, so a real study is often put aside as the noise is preferable to most.

One question is, why would it be in a different state?
Before departing, did Jesus have a 'glorified' body?


However, regarding the thread, IF people go to hell, do they go in their bodies?
What age are the bodies that either get raised to life or sent to hell? Does it matter?


Lots of questions and i don't want to hijack what was and has been discussed, so don't feel compelled to answer. We can tackle it another time.

one more question, though... is it a 'grey area' or do we find clarity in Scripture about same body, different state?
Question for everyone.

Perhaps one to keep in mind as the discussion continues. God is well able to make a way that is right for all these things, so we don't need to rush things.


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br. Bear,

When I say a different state, I don't mean a different body. I believe physically we will just as we are now. We will interact with the world just as we do now. By different state I simply mean that the body will have qualities of the spirit. What they are I don't know. John says, we will be like Christ. Paul talks about a spiritual body, Spiritual is an adjective which give qualities of the spirit to the the body. A spiritual body could simply refer to the present body after it is resurrected. He said that it was by God's spirit that believers would be raised. It could be that believers are no different than they are now, except that they've been raised by the spirit. I don't think we're given that information.

 

[B-A-C]

John says, we will be like Christ.

1Jn 3:2; Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Even John didn't know what that looked like. "It has not appeared yet what we will be". We aren't already like Him, "when He appears" then we will be like Him.
We are already like Him in spiritual ways. The fruit of the Spirit is love peace joy, etc... we can already have those things now.
But there will be something different when He appears.... and when He appears we will be changed. Different that we are now. We won't be able to die anymore.

 

[Butch5]

1Jn 3:2; Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

Even John didn't know what that looked like. "It has not appeared yet what we will be". We aren't already like Him, "when He appears" then we will be like Him.
We are already like Him in spiritual ways. The fruit of the Spirit is love peace joy, etc... we can already have those things now.
But there will be something different when He appears.... and when He appears we will be changed. Different that we are now. We won't be able to die anymore.

I don't think we'll be unable to die. Immortality or as the Greek puts it 'no death' belongs to the Father alone. I believe we won't die because God has promised to give life.