I don't believe a loving God would send people to hell.....

[B-A-C]

1Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

When Jesus returns, the saints who are "asleep" (dead) will rise first.

1Cor 15:50; Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cor 15:53; For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54; But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55; “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

When we are raised again (whether living or dead at that moment) we will be "changed" in the twinkling of a eye. In just a fraction of a second/just a blink we will become immortal
and death will have no power of over any longer. We will become immortal, having eternal life. But if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, then it will be some
other kind of body?

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[Beetow]

but they did recognize Elijah and Moses.

This question came up in church one Sunday morning:

Seeing as how Moses lived well over a thousand years before Peter, James, and
John, and Elijah more than eight-hundred, then how did the guys know who the men
were talking with Jesus having never seen them before?

Well; that's the answer: they were talking, and Jesus quite likely spoke to the men
by name and Peter and his friends overheard. In point of fact, I think they were
meant to overhear because the topic of the conversation was not only very important,
but also very relevant.
_

 

[Gregoryp]

1Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

When Jesus returns, the saints who are "asleep" (dead) will rise first.

1Cor 15:50; Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cor 15:53; For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54; But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55; “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”

When we are raised again (whether living or dead at that moment) we will be "changed" in the twinkling of a eye. In just a fraction of a second/just a blink we will become immortal
and death will have no power of over any longer. We will become immortal, having eternal life. But if flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, then it will be some
other kind of body?

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I aways thought flesh and blood meant the earthly realm, IE good works, mans understanding, the fact the soul is the one getting the inheritance, not what the flesh and bones have figured out or worked for.

 

[Beetow]

• 1Cor 15:50 . . I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

That verse must be talking about natural flesh and blood-- i.e. Adam's --because
we know from Matt 26:29, Luke 22:15-16, and Luke 22:28-30, that the
supernatural body spoken of in the fifteenth chapter of 1Corinthians is capable of
dining upon ordinary foods and beverages.

The chemistry of the supernatural body is thus far unknown but apparently there
exists a periodic table of elements in Heaven just as there is a periodic table of
elements on Earth. Heaven's elements are obviously superior because a body
constructed with them doesn't age.

However, a body immune to age isn't impervious to injury. I know that's true because
the tree of life will be available for treatments. (Rev 22:1-2 an Rev 22:14)
_

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

• 1Cor 15:50 . . I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

That verse must be talking about natural flesh and blood-- i.e. Adam's --because
we know from Matt 26:29, Luke 22:15-16, and Luke 22:28-30, that the
supernatural body spoken of in the fifteenth chapter of 1Corinthians is capable of
dining upon ordinary foods and beverages.

The chemistry of the supernatural body is thus far unknown but apparently there
exists a periodic table of elements in Heaven just as there is a periodic table of
elements on Earth. Heaven's elements are obviously superior because a body
constructed with them doesn't age.

However, a body immune to age isn't impervious to injury. I know that's true because
the tree of life will be available for treatments. (Rev 22:1-2 an Rev 22:14)
_

The WORD of God is beyond fascinating.

 

[Beetow]

The verse below is misquoted below; watch for the boo-boo.

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spirit body. There is a natural body, and
there is a spirit body." 1Cor 15:44

Catch the misquote? Well; there is no mention of a spirit body in that passage. The
actual word is "spiritual".

The Greek word translated "spiritual" is ambiguous. It doesn't necessarily refer to
the characteristics of thin air. Below is a list of spiritual things that bear absolutely
no resemblance whatsoever to the bodily chemistry of an angel or a demon.

Spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
Spiritual law (Rom 7:14
Spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
Spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
Spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
Spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual counselors (Gal 6:1)
Spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
Spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
Spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
Spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
Spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)
_

 

[B-A-C]

Catch the misquote?

It would interesting to know which translation says that.

The Greek word translated "spiritual" is ambiguous. It doesn't necessarily refer to
the characteristics of thin air. Below is a list of spiritual things that bear absolutely
no resemblance whatsoever to the bodily chemistry of an angel or a demon.

Spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
Spiritual law (Rom 7:14
Spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
Spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
Spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
Spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual counselors (Gal 6:1)
Spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
Spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
Spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
Spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
Spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)
_

You might be correct, perhaps it is not transparent, immaterial, non-tangible.
But it is not natural either. The natural body dies, this body does not.

In all the examples you've give above as spiritual things... these are not natural things.
People have worldly understanding, but some have spiritual understanding that is on another level.
The gifts of the spirit are not things a "natural" person can do.
The fruit of the spirit is not something a "natural" person has.
The spiritual body, is not something a natural person has in the natural.

pnuematikos - adjective.

 

[Reba1]

Sounds JW

 

[B-A-C]

However, a body immune to age isn't impervious to injury. I know that's true because
the tree of life will be available for treatments. (Rev 22:1-2 an Rev 22:14)

I wonder if this for the already saved saints, or for "the nations" of unsaved people on the earth.

Rev 22:14; Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

And even if it is for the saints, will they have to continue taking this? (considering their news bodies are immortal - imperishable )
Or is it a take once and you're done, healed forever thing?

 

[Butch5]

Not sure i am convinced about that but perhaps a new thread would be better place to tackle it? Maybe, maybe not?


Bless you ....><>

Can you elaborate?

 

[Butch5]

Greetings,

I have quoted some of Butch5's post because i wanted to point out that what is being presented DOES have roots in what was the reality back then in Corinth. [and other areas - most of the then known world]

Today we might hear a sermon that includes things that we relate to really well because 'everyone knows' about the place or people or custom being referred to. Back then, the Greek way of thinking and understanding was deeply influenced by what was the going 'religious' thought.
Perhaps research a bit on this subject. The Oracles of Delphi, for example, the influence of the Pythia (Plato was only one influenced by such), The Greek gods and mythology, what was acceptable and encouraged regarding gender and practices we frown upon, and yes, the state of the 'soul' and the 'dead' and the 'here-after'.

This was the stuff the early Church was up against, besides the Jews who refused Jesus as Messiah. There is actually a lot of reference to these "Greek ways' to be seen in the pages of the New Testament. To deliberately ignore that or to scoff at it because referrence to any of that does not line up with our traditional understanding of what we read (more usually, what we have learned) in the New Testament, does not help in understanding contexts and the importance of what is written in a lot of places in the New Testament.
We are familiar with using a little 'history' when we study about Old Testament things, so it is OK to use a little "history', to help study New Testament.
It actually helps a lot.

What Butch5 is presenting doesn't lessen the meaning of what is written but understanding a biy about thse things can help, to see something that really was and is a challenge to the world's thinking.

I am not endorsing any or all of anyone's submissions here, but wanting to help clear the path a bit so a better appreciation of what you are all discussing can be had.

As i said, do a little research. I don't expect anyone to suddenly 'convert' to a new way of reasoning but if you get honest about the historical context, you will also find it is safe and does in fact give a much broader outlook on what we as Christian have and still do contend with and why Christian have been untolerated so much. The same was true for the Prophets. They contested the ways and cultural 'norm' of their day and were killed because of it.

Think about it for a minute. The message, in places like Corinthians, isn't simply telling a story about what happens to Christian when they die. It is 'teaching' the converts and reminding them of the New Way in contrast to their old way. It is also a very bold statement against the way of the world back then. It is not until you learn a bit about it, that you really appreciate the impact that Christianity had on people and why it was said that they were turning the world upside down.

Thanks for reading.

Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

Thanks for posting this Br. Bear. This is one of the things that is so hard to get people to consider. We read the Scriptures and we understand them based on our modern world view. That's a natural thing to do, which is why I think many don't think about it. The thing is it was written to people with certain beliefs as you stated. We really need to look at how they understood it to get the really meaning. Again, thanks for this post.

 

[Butch5]

A few thoughts here.

1. Somehow this thread has drifted from God sending people to hell, to do people even exist after physical death, to what kind of body do they have.
I can see how this would be a natural progression in some cases.

2. I might even be willing to say the spirit can't exist without a body for the sake of argument. But even if this was true, we eventually get new bodies, so we don't cease to exist.
This is how the concept of soul sleep works, you are never "absent" from the body, you're just asleep in a dead (decaying) body. This is somewhat problematic if you take this too literally,
what about people disintegrated by an atomic bomb, or thrown into a volcano, or something where the body completely annihilated? Some argue that your body still exists even
then, it's now in the form of carbon/ash/plasma or whatever, but the molecules that made up your body are still around.
But if this is the case, you are eventually resurrected and given a new body on "the last day".

3. There is a prevailing thought in Christianity that when you die, your spirit immediately goes back to heaven.
A lot of this comes from 2Cor 5:6-10; This seems to say we will eventually be absent from the body (at the very least our current body)

4. If we get back to the core of @Butch5 theology. He believes in annihilation-ism. He apparently believes no one really goes to hell, at least not for very long because they will be annihilated.
This is how the thread started, - a loving God wouldn't send people to hell.
This sometimes bleeds over to his believes about the saints, (this seems to be a moving target, that changes from time to time) but often it seems he believes the saints will eventually be annihilated as well.
Although some posts seem to say he believes the saints may live forever. But if they do, they will have a body. For me personally, I'm less concerned about having a physical body than my spirit/consciousness
living eternally. If it's in a body great, if not, I'm OK with that too.

5. There are literally dozens of scriptures about the after life, the resurrection, the New Jerusalem, hades, the lake of fire, new bodies, our spirit, and where certain types of people eventually end up.
(Some people do end up in hell). So OK, maybe it's OK to understand where someone is coming from to a point, but eventually the Bible takes precedence, and we have to believe what it says.
Not just in one or two cherry picked verses, but the over-all theme of all the scripture pertaining to this subject.

Hi B-A-C,

Since there seems to be some question about what I believe, let me lay it all out.

Regarding hell, Hades is the grave where the body is buried, everyone goes there. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem, also referred to as the Lake of Fire in Revelation where the wicked are destroyed. Concerning the English idea of hell as a place of torment I don't believe that it's a Biblical concept. I don't believe it exists in reality.

Regarding man, I believe man is a physical flesh being. When we look at a person we are seeing the person. I don't believe that there is an essence whether called spirit or soul that "IS" the person. The flesh body that decays after death "IS" the person. I believe that the body which is the person, is animated by the breath or spirit, same word, of God. So, something that "IS" God is put into man and that is what animates the man, gives him life. I believe when a man dies, that breath or spirit that "IS" God, returns to Him as it is His, and the man, the body, returns to the dust. I don't hold to soul sleep the idea that the soul is unconscious. I hold that the man dies, his body returns to dust. He is dead, not asleep, not in Heaven with God, he is dead. I believe that God will resurrect all people. The believer will be given eternal life. The wicked will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire where they will die again. They will be dead, cease to be alive. They will not be a soul and/or spirit that lives on in torment or any place else, they will be dead. The body is burned up and the are no more.

Regarding the resurrection, I believe that each person will be raised in the same body that they had before death.

The reason the thread drifts is because these subjects are tied together and one depends on another. For instance, can a man suffer eternal torment. That depends on whether the man is eternal of not. That brings up the make up of man. One thing leads to another.

 

[Reba1]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (G166) life.

From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

 

[Butch5]

Matt 8:28; When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way.
Matt 8:29; And they cried out, saying, “What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”
Matt 8:30; Now there was a herd of many swine feeding at a distance from them.
Matt 8:31; The demons began to entreat Him, saying, “If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine.”
Matt 8:32; And He said to them, “Go!” And they came out and went into the swine, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and perished in the waters.

So what does this passage have to do with God sending people to hell? ... Very little!

But it does have to do with body-less spirits, the whole concept of demons for example... are spirits without a body.
They don't have their own bodies, so they inhabit other bodies. In this case two men. But it says here there were some pigs "at a distance".
How far is a distance? I don't know, but lets say 100 yards or so. How did the demons in these two men cover the distance to the pigs?
There are other similar scriptures, but the point is... apparently the were body-less for at least a second or two, or however long it
took for them to transfer to the new bodies. But even then, the pigs perished in the water. So either these demons inhabit a dead body,
or they leave that body and go look for something else. The point being, spirits don't have to have a body.

And what about Angels? Apparently some of them can materialize, and even physically touch people. ( Gen 19:10; ) but do they have physical bodies?

Hi B-A-C,

This is where we differ drastically. I don't believe that man is a spirit. The Greek and Hebrew words that are translated spirit literally mean wind. When they are translated spirit it is a figure of speech. That brings up the question, why are angels and demons figuratively called winds? Jesus gave an example of this.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

The translators kind of throw people off here. The word wind in this passage is the same word that is translated spirit. It's the word pneuma. So we could translate it this way,

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the wind.

The first occurrence of wind is literal in this statement, the second one is figurative. People aren't really born of the wind, as in the air that blows along the earth's surface. They are born of God. However, that process is being compared to the wind. Just as the wind blows were it wills and people can hear it, but don't know where it comes from or where it goes, so are the people who are born of God. Angels and demons are also figuratively called winds or spirits. Why is that? Well, look at Jesus' explanation. Angels and demons come and go as they will, we don't know where they come from or where they go. However, we can see the effects of them when they interact with the physical world. The problem is that what has happened is over time people have replaced the figurative use as the definition of angels an demons. In other words what is a figure of speech has replace the actual meaning of the word. Because angels and demons are living beings and are figuratively called winds or spirits, people have replaced the figure of speech with living beings. So now when people see these words, in their minds, they read living beings instead of winds. Again, the fundamental meaning of these words is wind. When an angel or demon is called a spirit or wind, what the Bible is trying to do is convey this idea of the wind, that it comes and goes without out knowing, to these angels and demons.

The Greek words Noe and pneuma are used interchangeably in Scripture. God also has a Noe or pneuma. The same thing Jesus said about the wind applies to God's noe or pneuma. Scripture refers to the holy Pneuma. God's pneuma (wind, spirit) is how He interacts in the world. My point in saying all of this is to say that man "IS'NT" a pneuma. He is a flesh being. Man is a flesh being with God's pneuma or noe in him. So, while angels and demons are living beings that are different than man and can exist without a body, man is a living being that cannot live without a body. He "IS" the body with God's noe or pmeuma in him. When God retrieves His noe or pneuma, the man dies and ceases to exist.

This is how I understand man.

 

[Butch5]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (G166) life.

From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Hi Reba,

Perpetual is a pretty good definition, eternal is not. Jesus, Paul, and the rest of the apostles all spoke of the end of the aion. Something that ends cannot be eternal.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings,

I have quoted some of Butch5's post because i wanted to point out that what is being presented DOES have roots in what was the reality back then in Corinth. [and other areas - most of the then known world]

Today we might hear a sermon that includes things that we relate to really well because 'everyone knows' about the place or people or custom being referred to. Back then, the Greek way of thinking and understanding was deeply influenced by what was the going 'religious' thought.
Perhaps research a bit on this subject. The Oracles of Delphi, for example, the influence of the Pythia (Plato was only one influenced by such), The Greek gods and mythology, what was acceptable and encouraged regarding gender and practices we frown upon, and yes, the state of the 'soul' and the 'dead' and the 'here-after'.

This was the stuff the early Church was up against, besides the Jews who refused Jesus as Messiah. There is actually a lot of reference to these "Greek ways' to be seen in the pages of the New Testament. To deliberately ignore that or to scoff at it because referrence to any of that does not line up with our traditional understanding of what we read (more usually, what we have learned) in the New Testament, does not help in understanding contexts and the importance of what is written in a lot of places in the New Testament.
We are familiar with using a little 'history' when we study about Old Testament things, so it is OK to use a little "history', to help study New Testament.
It actually helps a lot.

What Butch5 is presenting doesn't lessen the meaning of what is written but understanding a biy about thse things can help, to see something that really was and is a challenge to the world's thinking.

I am not endorsing any or all of anyone's submissions here, but wanting to help clear the path a bit so a better appreciation of what you are all discussing can be had.

As i said, do a little research. I don't expect anyone to suddenly 'convert' to a new way of reasoning but if you get honest about the historical context, you will also find it is safe and does in fact give a much broader outlook on what we as Christian have and still do contend with and why Christian have been untolerated so much. The same was true for the Prophets. They contested the ways and cultural 'norm' of their day and were killed because of it.

Think about it for a minute. The message, in places like Corinthians, isn't simply telling a story about what happens to Christian when they die. It is 'teaching' the converts and reminding them of the New Way in contrast to their old way. It is also a very bold statement against the way of the world back then. It is not until you learn a bit about it, that you really appreciate the impact that Christianity had on people and why it was said that they were turning the world upside down.

Thanks for reading.

Jesus is Lord


Bless you ....><>

Thanks for posting this Br. Bear. This is one of the things that is so hard to get people to consider. We read the Scriptures and we understand them based on our modern world view. That's a natural thing to do, which is why I think many don't think about it. The thing is it was written to people with certain beliefs as you stated. We really need to look at how they understood it to get the really meaning. Again, thanks for this post.

 

[Br. Bear]

Yes our bodies will be recognizable like they were able to recognize Jesus.

Greetings Brother,

what about the Gardener or when they were walking to Emmaus, the time when the Disciples were fishing?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

He says not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon. Again, clothed is a metaphor for the body. The Greek word that is translated clothed upon, literally means to put on over. It would be like putting on a coat over top of one's clothes. So, Paul is saying, unlike the Greeks, he doesn't want to be unclothed (without a body), he want's to be clothed upon. In other words he doesn't want to be without a body, he wants the future state to swallow up his present state.

Greetings Brother,

about being clothed... or not

I am reminded of Adam and Eve in the Garden after eating the fruit they were told not to.

Without getting into the how, who or why, too much, they were naked and the Lord provided clothing for them.
Is it possible that the Apostle was aware of that and if so, that we can link the unclothed state to the Garden situation? Of course, Jesus and through faith in Him, provides clothing we can not acquire ourselves and the forgiveness we need to be 'eligible' to wear the robes He provides for those who love Him.

To interpret this, a little, it was sin that was being dealt with, so to speak.
We do not want to be found unclothed as Adam was, due to sin.... but we desire and have our hope in Him Who will clothe us because of the forgiveness of sin and pardon received through faith.

An all round encouragement to the believers he was addressing? As well as a lesson and as mentioned prior to this post, it was something 'in the face' of the going belief that was the standard and accepted teaching of the day, as you have tried to explain.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

So what does this passage have to do with God sending people to hell? ... Very little!

But it does have to do with body-less spirits, the whole concept of demons for example... are spirits without a body.
They don't have their own bodies, so they inhabit other bodies. In this case two men. But it says here there were some pigs "at a distance".
How far is a distance? I don't know, but lets say 100 yards or so. How did the demons in these two men cover the distance to the pigs?
There are other similar scriptures, but the point is... apparently the were body-less for at least a second or two, or however long it
took for them to transfer to the new bodies. But even then, the pigs perished in the water. So either these demons inhabit a dead body,
or they leave that body and go look for something else. The point being, spirits don't have to have a body.

Greetings Brother,

good point raised regarding the "body-less spirits"

That whole story would be good to explore in another thread.
More to the piggies than we might at first see.. and the rest of the story, including the sea.

SO much to talk about, everywhere you go in Scripture and it is all so .... trying to think of the word.... constantly seeing so much more, the more you look and then realising it is all about our Saviour and His love!

Isaiah 32:3
And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.

Isaiah 35:5
Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.


Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy law.
Psalm 119:18


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Speaking of 1st Corinthians 15:50

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Hi JIL,

He doesn't actually say, they are putting on immortal bodies. Earlier I mentioned in the post to @B-A-C about Paul talking in abstract concepts. I believe this is one of those times. I don't think Paul is talking about bodies here, but rather, a state of being. Our current state is corruption or decaying or perishing. The future state of believers will be that of incorruption or not decaying. I don't really think corruption is the best translation. I think decay is better as we see the two states contrasted here, the current state of decaying and a future state of not decaying. But, I would note verse 52. Paul says "we shall be changed". That seems to indicate to me that it is his current body that will be changed. The Greek word that is translated resurrection, literally means, to stand again. Prior to this Paul contrasted this with a spiritual body.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Cor. 15:42-44 KJV)

We see the contrast of our current state and that of the future state. I think a lot people see the words spiritual body and think of a different body. However, the word spiritual is an adjective. It simply gives the qualities of the noun it is modifying, in this case body. I submit that it's not a different body, but rather, the present body which then has qualities of the spirit. This would line up with resurrection because the same body would, stand again.

Jesus had the nail holes and the hole in His side after He was resurrected. So, it was the same body.

I do agree that it is a different state.

Not sure i am convinced about that but perhaps a new thread would be better place to tackle it? Maybe, maybe not?


Bless you ....><>

Can you elaborate?

Greetings,

Do you mind if i say yes or no? [you didn't actually ask me to! ]

I suppose there is a lot of guess work regarding this. Equally lots of attempts to prove those guesses. [not referring to anyone here - it is one of those questions that have been around a long time and with the world wide webbing, there are untold variants and oodles of copy-pastes, so a real study is often put aside as the noise is preferable to most.

One question is, why would it be in a different state?
Before departing, did Jesus have a 'glorified' body?


However, regarding the thread, IF people go to hell, do they go in their bodies?
What age are the bodies that either get raised to life or sent to hell? Does it matter?


Lots of questions and i don't want to hijack what was and has been discussed, so don't feel compelled to answer. We can tackle it another time.

one more question, though... is it a 'grey area' or do we find clarity in Scripture about same body, different state?
Question for everyone.

Perhaps one to keep in mind as the discussion continues. God is well able to make a way that is right for all these things, so we don't need to rush things.


Bless you ....><>