If you deny Christ or lose your faith, is that it?

[littlesheep]

Thanks for your reply Christ4Ever which I've just read. I just wanted to briefly say though that I did believe in Jesus as my saviour and as the Son of God when I made a commitment in the past - although I think perhaps I lacked a rounded view of who he was/is. I do remember trying to get a deeper 'connection' with and greater understanding of him as a person but to be honest found it difficult because of some of the passages in the bible. I just didn't get some of what he said and found a some things very uncomfortable - like saying leave the pharisees (when it meant leaving them to go to hell), and also blessed are those who mourn, or some of the parables which were kind of cryptic. Also, looking back I don't understand why things weren't said like 'don't abuse children', 'don't enslave other people' or 'wash your hands after going to the toilet or before medical treatments' (might have benefited a lot of people). I really tried to study what Jesus said, so that I could grow closer to him but I struggled to think of him in 3D as he was in real life. I had a kind of concept of him as being I suppose a perfect person, but I often felt awkward around reading about him because of that.. Also, how much is it possible to 'have a relationship with Jesus' when its just mainly from reading about him - that doesn't seem like a two way relationship to me - infact looking back it does seem as if it was mainly about an exercise in imagination. I wanted and needed to have someone to interact with in the here and now. I have spent an awful lot of time on my own due to circumstances including illness, and I remember the scripture 'hope deferred makes the heart sick' - maybe that's what happened. These are just my initial thoughts. I have to do something now, and will reread your reply again.

 

[Brad Huber]

You sound just like an militant atheist impersonating a christian. I hope I am wrong, but I have seen it on other christian sites just recently, where they try thier best to sway others away from thier faith. Perhaps what you thought was faith in the past was just what others told you it was. Regardless, you are short on faith, and I will pray for you.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Also, how much is it possible to 'have a relationship with Jesus' when its just mainly from reading about him - that doesn't seem like a two way relationship to me - infact looking back it does seem as if it was mainly about an exercise in imagination.

It's more like Jesus is reality and through reading,praying and believing the word he "exorcises our dark imaginations".
I do understand what you mean though it seems crazy until he responds in your heart and shows you the method in the madness.
Our imagine-nations rage against God and that is what you hear telling you he is not real because the nations in you want to maintain control of your image-engine.

The Bible is an image-engine that generates an understanding of God and casts down everything that is not of him.

Hebrews 11:18 even he to whom it was said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called:

Isaac means laughter so it's supposed to be fun.
Why would you want to hang around someone who is no fun.

Get on board and lighten up,when you finally meet him you will see he is crazy fun and that's why you must become like a little child to enter.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Thanks for your reply Christ4Ever which I've just read. I just wanted to briefly say though that I did believe in Jesus as my saviour and as the Son of God when I made a commitment in the past - although I think perhaps I lacked a rounded view of who he was/is. I do remember trying to get a deeper 'connection' with and greater understanding of him as a person but to be honest found it difficult because of some of the passages in the bible. I just didn't get some of what he said and found a some things very uncomfortable - like saying leave the pharisees (when it meant leaving them to go to hell), and also blessed are those who mourn, or some of the parables which were kind of cryptic. Also, looking back I don't understand why things weren't said like 'don't abuse children', 'don't enslave other people' or 'wash your hands after going to the toilet or before medical treatments' (might have benefited a lot of people). I really tried to study what Jesus said, so that I could grow closer to him but I struggled to think of him in 3D as he was in real life. I had a kind of concept of him as being I suppose a perfect person, but I often felt awkward around reading about him because of that.. Also, how much is it possible to 'have a relationship with Jesus' when its just mainly from reading about him - that doesn't seem like a two way relationship to me - infact looking back it does seem as if it was mainly about an exercise in imagination. I wanted and needed to have someone to interact with in the here and now. I have spent an awful lot of time on my own due to circumstances including illness, and I remember the scripture 'hope deferred makes the heart sick' - maybe that's what happened. These are just my initial thoughts. I have to do something now, and will reread your reply again.

Sadly at times the very Brothers & Sisters in Christ who want and through the Holy Spirit are guided to believe, do a poor job of teaching. It's like they've taken you to the start of a maze and then say now figure out the rest on your own, oh yeah here's a map with sings in a language that one barely recognizes. That sadly falls very short on what the Great Commission is about. Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:......." Yet too often that is exactly what happens and what appears to have happened to you. Some learned folks here at TJ and some not so learned (me) can try to help with understanding some things. Yet none can tell you all, but hopefully, can provide a decent guide in how to understand certain verses within the context of the whole (Bible). An example: You mention "...looking back I don't understand why things weren't said like 'don't abuse children'..." Let's look at some verses that pretty much say the same thing and answer your question, maybe not as clearly in contemporary terminology, but you'll get the drift of it.

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

What do you think Jesus was saying when He said this?

On the relationship front, keep in mind that a relationship is a process and nothing that either happens over night or has has specific guidelines. Doesn't mean general guidelines don't work. Think of it this way...you have friends right? Do you make time to get together with them, maybe go out somewhere? Do things together? Talk, listen or just enjoy each others presence? As time passes and the more time you spend doing things together and spend time together, doesn't the relationship grow with your friends? Seems somehow move loving, caring? It's as if you even know what each other is thinking. This might happen even when you're not completely sure they feel exactly the same way you do about the friendship? Well building a relationship with the Lord can follow some of the same things that have made your relationship with your friends special. Making time everyday to spend talking with Him, praying, reading His Word the Bible, putting into practice things that you've learned, turning to Him first when things are going bad and when they're going good too. There's no question that you've thought of or will think of that He can't answer. The question becomes do you really want to know the answer, and if you do and it's not the answer you want to hear, since we do have a tendency to know better (sarcasm) what do you do then? Must He meet our expectations or do we need to grow to begin to understand His?

I hope this gives a little of what you might not have heard, or puts it in a different light, that will assuage what you believe might be hopeless endeavor. I'll leave you with a few verses that I pray might help.

If we who believe hadn't heard His word would we heard about the Hope that is in Christ Jesus? Psalm 119:114 Thou [art] my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

Truly believe this and you'll know that even though you might not understand it, He does and He works only Good (Keep in mind His perspective not yours ) Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Keeping growing and keep asking questions. When doubt hits then it's time to pray! He's the one you should turn to first. He might even have you talk to us here at TJ which is what you're doing now and which allows us to be blessed in turn by trying to help! Alleluia! Ah to be a tool in the hand of the Master!!! Awesome when you think about it! Step by step, inch by inch, yet ever forward!

 

[Jon7]

There IS restoration in Christ. Christ's love is INFINITE. Therefore, His gift of salvation is infinite.

 

[littlesheep]

You sound just like an militant atheist impersonating a christian. I hope I am wrong, but I have seen it on other christian sites just recently, where they try thier best to sway others away from thier faith. Perhaps what you thought was faith in the past was just what others told you it was. Regardless, you are short on faith, and I will pray for you.

I am definitely not here to try and sway others from their faith. It's true that about the time I lost faith I was introduced to atheist arguments from someone close and these did have quite an impact on me because faith just did not seem to be working. I was/have been in a very stuck/difficult situation for a long time. So yes I am short on faith - in fact I think it went and I am wondering if its possible to go back/get it back or if that's it. I have also been trying to explore my reasoning/thinking about matters of faith by questioning others because I'm aware that I could be wrong.

 

[littlesheep]

hi Thiscrosshurts, just wanted to say thank you for writing. I'm just thinking through what you've written at the moment but have been distracted because I'm having to move home and other circumstances are changing too, so i'm sorry for the delay in responding.

 

[littlesheep]

Sadly at times the very Brothers & Sisters in Christ who want and through the Holy Spirit are guided to believe, do a poor job of teaching. It's like they've taken you to the start of a maze and then say now figure out the rest on your own, oh yeah here's a map with sings in a language that one barely recognizes. That sadly falls very short on what the Great Commission is about. Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:......." Yet too often that is exactly what happens and what appears to have happened to you. Some learned folks here at TJ and some not so learned (me) can try to help with understanding some things. Yet none can tell you all, but hopefully, can provide a decent guide in how to understand certain verses within the context of the whole (Bible). An example: You mention "...looking back I don't understand why things weren't said like 'don't abuse children'..." Let's look at some verses that pretty much say the same thing and answer your question, maybe not as clearly in contemporary terminology, but you'll get the drift of it.

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

What do you think Jesus was saying when He said this?

On the relationship front, keep in mind that a relationship is a process and nothing that either happens over night or has has specific guidelines. Doesn't mean general guidelines don't work. Think of it this way...you have friends right? Do you make time to get together with them, maybe go out somewhere? Do things together? Talk, listen or just enjoy each others presence? As time passes and the more time you spend doing things together and spend time together, doesn't the relationship grow with your friends? Seems somehow move loving, caring? It's as if you even know what each other is thinking. This might happen even when you're not completely sure they feel exactly the same way you do about the friendship? Well building a relationship with the Lord can follow some of the same things that have made your relationship with your friends special. Making time everyday to spend talking with Him, praying, reading His Word the Bible, putting into practice things that you've learned, turning to Him first when things are going bad and when they're going good too. There's no question that you've thought of or will think of that He can't answer. The question becomes do you really want to know the answer, and if you do and it's not the answer you want to hear, since we do have a tendency to know better (sarcasm) what do you do then? Must He meet our expectations or do we need to grow to begin to understand His?

I hope this gives a little of what you might not have heard, or puts it in a different light, that will assuage what you believe might be hopeless endeavor. I'll leave you with a few verses that I pray might help.

If we who believe hadn't heard His word would we heard about the Hope that is in Christ Jesus? Psalm 119:114 Thou [art] my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word.

Truly believe this and you'll know that even though you might not understand it, He does and He works only Good (Keep in mind His perspective not yours ) Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Keeping growing and keep asking questions. When doubt hits then it's time to pray! He's the one you should turn to first. He might even have you talk to us here at TJ which is what you're doing now and which allows us to be blessed in turn by trying to help! Alleluia! Ah to be a tool in the hand of the Master!!! Awesome when you think about it! Step by step, inch by inch, yet ever forward!

Hi Christ4Ever, thanks very much for writing. I am just trying to take in what you've said. One thing that struck me was 'putting things into practice' what you've learnt. When I first became a Christian one thing I was told I needed to put into practice was forgiveness because I had had a traumatic upbringing. However, while I spent a very long time on that, I never really moved on and learnt new life skills to manage day-to-day living. I think basically I missed out on parenting in a big way. Maybe this has been a reason why I've found it so hard to relate to Jesus in a practical way or to be practical and learn what I am meant to be doing. The thing is that while I forgave my family as much as I could, it meant that I was caught up in relationships with them again where I still never got my needs met, and I didn't really have the chance to work out what my needs were/are.

My relationship with God in the past was quite mystical I suppose and involved a lot of prayer, but I shied away from letting people too close because I knew I had ways where I didn't cope too well because of the past. Also, when I did let people closer, sometimes I got hurt or taken advantage of - because I repeated a pattern of giving things or support away to other people, whilst I wasn't taking care of myself. I kind of know this now, but its hard habit to break when your self-worth is so low that you feel that you have to do that to maintain relationships.

I guess I'm just pouring things out here. Which is rather exposing with it being on the internet. But I'm honestly trying to work things out. I'm still not really sure if I can go back and start over again with Christianity because I think it was so out of balance for me before. I think I was/can be pretty gullible, so I did an about turn and ditched everything in the end.

I'm realising that if I came back to Jesus I would have to reevaluate my understanding of what a relationship with him is, look again at who Jesus is and claims/ed to be until I was convinced in my own mind about his identity, reevaluate my understanding of what the bible is (whether it is inerrant or whether it has flaws just like another written document), and once that had been looked at (which seems like a huge task to be honest), I'd then need to relook at where I would belong in a church. I just don't know if its possible.

 

[DutchChristian]

Just surrender to the Lord Jesus Christ He is GOD

read the Bible, cry out for Him to Come and Save you, repent and be born again and get baptized, fellowship with true believers amen

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Christ4Ever, thanks very much for writing. I am just trying to take in what you've said. One thing that struck me was 'putting things into practice' what you've learnt. When I first became a Christian one thing I was told I needed to put into practice was forgiveness because I had had a traumatic upbringing. However, while I spent a very long time on that, I never really moved on and learnt new life skills to manage day-to-day living. I think basically I missed out on parenting in a big way. Maybe this has been a reason why I've found it so hard to relate to Jesus in a practical way or to be practical and learn what I am meant to be doing. The thing is that while I forgave my family as much as I could, it meant that I was caught up in relationships with them again where I still never got my needs met, and I didn't really have the chance to work out what my needs were/are.

My relationship with God in the past was quite mystical I suppose and involved a lot of prayer, but I shied away from letting people too close because I knew I had ways where I didn't cope too well because of the past. Also, when I did let people closer, sometimes I got hurt or taken advantage of - because I repeated a pattern of giving things or support away to other people, whilst I wasn't taking care of myself. I kind of know this now, but its hard habit to break when your self-worth is so low that you feel that you have to do that to maintain relationships.

I guess I'm just pouring things out here. Which is rather exposing with it being on the internet. But I'm honestly trying to work things out. I'm still not really sure if I can go back and start over again with Christianity because I think it was so out of balance for me before. I think I was/can be pretty gullible, so I did an about turn and ditched everything in the end.

I'm realising that if I came back to Jesus I would have to reevaluate my understanding of what a relationship with him is, look again at who Jesus is and claims/ed to be until I was convinced in my own mind about his identity, reevaluate my understanding of what the bible is (whether it is inerrant or whether it has flaws just like another written document), and once that had been looked at (which seems like a huge task to be honest), I'd then need to relook at where I would belong in a church. I just don't know if its possible.

If you really meant what you said about accepting the Lord as your Savior, then it's not about coming back, because he has not left your side. That you've come to TJ is evidence that he's still working on you through the Holy Spirit. For this very reason, certain things might be happening in your life which has brought you here. This very well might be where I pray a greater understanding and growth in your walk with the Lord might happen and if not here then where ever God's will might be done in your life, to His Glory.

I don't know if those who have hurt you know the Lord or not. Seems you've come into contact with people (Family included.) both in and out of the faith who just might have be unable provide the help you need now that you're a believer. Some of the faith might also believe that you are further along your walk with the Lord then you are. Regardless, your hurt being so great and a desire to please (Seems from what you've written that you're a caring person and want to do right.) comes to the front of who you are that you've never questioned why you do or are being asked to do what you do (Forgiveness/Charity etc.) Nobody likes to be taken advantage of, feel like they're being used, or see no results of their actions. When you start to understand the why and this is where the Bible can help you out. It's what or I should say who you represent that makes the difference in being able to understand.

Did they explain to you why you needed to forgive? If so were you able to set aside the things that were done to you, not done, or do thoughts of these things continue to crop up in your mind? From what you've written it seems the latter. This means that you've not really forgiven them or come to understand forgiveness. Somehow the blame is still on them and you have not released yourself from it.

It's like looking at the glass being half empty instead of half full analogy. One is a negative aspect and the other is a positive way of looking at things. The quicker you come to forgiveness the better it is, otherwise it has a tendency to fester and work on your mind, changing your heart to being bitter (hardened), instead of seeing it as a lesson to be used and learned from. Once you're able to put it behind you and forgive, that will be the time that when it gets brought up, even though initially bittersweet (Bitter for its happening/Sweet for the lesson learned.) it will be at that time that you will realize that you've forgiven, and when that realization happens, you'll be praising God for it, because a weight like an anvil will have been lifted from your soul, and it will be at that time, when you'll realize that with this understanding that you have now moved passed it and can begin to help others find the peace that you now have that truly goes beyond normal comprehension, which is truly supernatural occurrence through Christ Jesus. Alleluia!

Understanding that as God has forgiven us even while we were still sinners, we should want to be able to do the same, even as difficult as it seems. Keep in mind that our Lord sweated blood (Luke 22:44) for what was about to happen. Also, keep in mind just as God when we repented no longer holds our sins against us because of Christ Jesus, we should and need to try and do the same.

Here are some verses I pray may help you on forgiveness. I'm sure there are brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus who may know more of them. You might also know some of them, or try to start looking for them. :thumbs_up

Ephesians 4:32 [32] And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Luke 6:35 [35] But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.

I pray that you don't throw out the baby with the bath water (Love my analogies , because that is what it seems you are about to do. We are in a world that expects instant gratification. God doesn't work that way.

Praying that He will open your mind, your heart, to His tender mercies in knowing healing from the pain and hurt you've gone and are going through. That He grants you the Wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to continue to grow in His way. In the name of Christ Jesus I ask this. Amen.

 

[littlesheep]

Did they explain to you why you needed to forgive? If so were you able to set aside the things that were done to you, not done, or do thoughts of these things continue to crop up in your mind? From what you've written it seems the latter. This means that you've not really forgiven them or come to understand forgiveness. Somehow the blame is still on them and you have not released yourself from it.

It's like looking at the glass being half empty instead of half full analogy. One is a negative aspect and the other is a positive way of looking at things. The quicker you come to forgiveness the better it is, otherwise it has a tendency to fester and work on your mind, changing your heart to being bitter (hardened), instead of seeing it as a lesson to be used and learned from. Once you're able to put it behind you and forgive, that will be the time that when it gets brought up, even though initially bittersweet (Bitter for its happening/Sweet for the lesson learned.) it will be at that time that you will realize that you've forgiven, and when that realization happens, you'll be praising God for it, because a weight like an anvil will have been lifted from your soul, and it will be at that time, when you'll realize that with this understanding that you have now moved passed it and can begin to help others find the peace that you now have that truly goes beyond normal comprehension, which is truly supernatural occurrence through Christ Jesus. Alleluia!

Understanding that as God has forgiven us even while we were still sinners, we should want to be able to do the same, even as difficult as it seems. Keep in mind that our Lord sweated blood (Luke 22:44) for what was about to happen. Also, keep in mind just as God when we repented no longer holds our sins against us because of Christ Jesus, we should and need to try and do the same.

hi Christ4Ever, thank you for your post. I must admit that I did not respond for quite some time because after you posted about the topic of forgiveness, I really did not know if I could try all over again to look at the issue of forgiveness. It was really drummed into me early in my walk that I had to forgive as a Christian and to be honest I think that there is a problem with pushing forgiveness when the hurt has been severe because the person on the receiving end of the hurt needs to heal and sometimes needs a lot of support and help to heal from whats happened in order to process the thoughts and emotions before forgiveness can be worked on.

The hurt that affected me was years of repeated emotional abuse, bullying and emotional neglect. In particular it was mainly effected through two men - my dad and my stepfather, but also my mother too. It happened to such an extent that it became disabling and I developed post-traumatic stress and a mental illness, and as a result of taking medication for these illnesses I am now diabetic, overweight, have high blood pressure, high cholesterol and have become almost estranged from my own child due to my repeated hospitalisations.

I had dreams of becoming a doctor when I was younger, but I am now in my mid-forties with health problems facing poverty because I have no career training, have health issues, and live alone.

When I sought help through churches I was told that problems I was having were either because of not forgiving, or were demonic, or could be mental illness. The implication was that if I tried harder in my relationship with God then I would get better.

I prayed over and over to God to help me forgive and to protect me from the enemy. I spent time with all three parents. I rebuked the Devil in Jesus' Name and quoted scripture. I don't know what else I can put here except to say that I got pretty burnt out with putting my wholehearted effort into forgiving, working on my relationships with others and with God.

Some positives happened - I get on better with my mum but she still favours my siblings and gives them much more support, although this is partly because I live geographically further away. However, despite keeping the relationship with my dad going, he still behaves in ways which affect me very badly and has been a poor role model for my child. Also, my stepfather is outwardly civil/pleasant to me he has made it clear that he does not regard me as one of his - even though I lived with him from the age of 3.

To be frank, I realised today that I hate the way my dad and stepfather behaved towards me. It has blighted my life. I wish I didn't have to see my dad at all - ever again - but he has contact with my child, and to be honest I am in financial need and he sends me small amounts of money from time to time. I would be more appreciative of this, but it does come with strings attached which means I have to be a 'good daughter' and not confront him and it feels like control. I would also like not to have to see my stepfather again too. Its not that I wish them ill, but I just wish to be able to sever contact.

Well, that's what's happened. Please do NOT tell me to mechanically forgive or to try and be nicer to them - I have been SO nice to them, but it doesn't take away the consequences of their actions - my misery at being in the situation I am in and facing up to, my unhappiness at the effect on my child who was so affected by me being ill.

Today I realised that I have been stuck for many many years because when, as a child, for years I would try and go to my parents for help and there was none or it came with a conditions attached like accepting beliefs that I was inadequate or incapable. This rejection was so hurtful, that I stopped asking them for help and tried to learn about life more by just copying how others were amongst themselves - I felt an outsider in my own family.

Well, in all the above I realise that I haven't talked about God as yet. I suppose I'm still questioning now whether God exists.

The churches I've belonged to have all believed that the bible is innerrant and Christians who have taught me have focussed on me learning scriptures, praying everyday, reading the bible every day, tithing, and going to regular meetings. But noone has seemed able to help me untangle the difficulties of my past and present. I've been prophesied over at various times, but noone has been able to tell me what practical steps I need to take to get out of this situation or had particular insight. Meanwhile years have gone by and I gave away any spare income I had, so that now I have nothing left and its only now that I could have saved up to be able to afford to train for a new job. I was so used to not having my needs met as a child, that I didn't know how to set boundaries as an adult and I still struggle with that.

I don't understand why when people prophesied, did God not tell them something more clearly that would help me. I do not understand why when I prayed did I not sense God speaking to me more specifically about what I need to do to move forward, or if I was trouble hearing, tell a friend so that they could advise me. I have been really lonely at times and have prayed to meet someone, but it hasnt happened. All these things made me think that maybe atheists could be right and God could just be imaginary.

I have heard the reasoning that suggests that God does not answer my prayers because I've been disobedient in some way - but wouldn't a loving, good Father who is forgiving provide a way out or through for a child that's become stuck?

Maybe I have read too much atheist material. Maybe I didn't meet the right people to help through church.

I think I do want there to be a God and to know Jesus as a role model. But at the moment I really need some practical help and support to see my way forward and to see where God is helping me in a way so that I know that its Him and not just coincidence. Also, I'm very wary now of getting involved in a church again because I haven't really got much to give anymore and I don't want to feel/be guilt-tripped by others who tell me that they have my welfare at heart again whilst not really understanding or having insight into where I'm at.

I'm sorry if I've repeated myself.

After writing the above, I think I do need to get a clearer picture of what Jesus is like. Although I made a commitment in the past, I don't know that I've had a real enough sense of him.

 

[Peace Seeker]

The hurt that affected me was years of repeated emotional abuse, bullying and emotional neglect. In particular it was mainly effected through two men - my dad and my stepfather, but also my mother too. It happened to such an extent that it became disabling and I developed post-traumatic stress and a mental illness, and as a result of taking medication for these illnesses I am now diabetic, overweight, have high blood pressure, high cholesterol and have become almost estranged from my own child due to my repeated hospitalisations.

Hi lilyofthevalley,

I just wanted to add a little of my insight into what you said here. Not that it's a contest, but I am pretty sure I have been more abused by family than you. I've had all the abuse you mentioned plus physical and more. What I don't have, though, is the medical problems, and that's what I want to comment about.

You see, for many years, especially as a child, I hated my dad, and resented my mom, and I carried that hate and bitterness and hardened heart for many, many years afterward. And it got me NOTHING. It just wasted my life away. I was self-destructive, depressed, and didn't care whether I lived or died. Now, please look again at what I've said, and see if there is any healing in there, which you (rightfully) talked about wanting.

That's what Satan wants - no healing - that's why his favorite trick is to get us to hate those who have hurt us, because hate destroys, and he is THE destroyer. Only when I finally decided to forgive and love my parents, instead of letting the abuse I had no control over keep on controlling me, could I have peace and rest from all the pain. This may sound simplistic, and you think your situation is different than mine, or others, but the point I am saying is, the reason we get sick - mentally, physically, spiritually - is because we don't let go of the pain.


Is forgiving always easy to do? NO! But as a Christian I believe I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.Philippians 4:13 , and only when we give our hurt and burdens to the Lord, can He heal us. If we choose to hang on to them, we put ourselves in an unending spiral of harmful repetition.

Angry people get ulcers, but their stomachs couldn't care less why the person is angry, or that he feels he has every right to be, all that matters is the law of cause and effect. What we hold on to will either help us or harm us. In the same way, (as unfair as it all seems), ultimately it's not what happens to us that matters, it's how we react to our circumstances that does.

Love is easy to do when someone is loving to us, and we surely think we don't need any help with that. But love your enemies? Bless them that persecute you? Wow, those are no small potatoes. We want the abuser to hurt, and suffer, and pay for what he did. But the problem is, if they suffer, we suffer, and we usually suffer more. If you hold fire in your hand to throw at someone else, you may burn them, but you're burnt as well. Again, no healing. And when you have been hurt in your innocence you deserve to be healed.

I questioned God a lot, too, because of my circumstances, but He never gave up on me while I was hurling abuse at Him. He forgave me.

I know it's hard, but forgiveness is the only way to heal, I have found no other way. And here's the thing, God does not forget about our abuse, neither are we required to. He is the righteous judge that will square everything up in His good time frame, you can bank on that. But we must forgive, because God forgave our sins, which are in His eyes just as abhorrent as the next person's.

And Jesus knows a thing or two about hurt, because He was abused in ways I probably will never be, and He endured it for me and you, even though He was perfectly innocent in every way. So He knows what it is like to suffer and is greatly touched when we suffer.

Please believe me, I really sympathize with people that have come from abusive backgrounds, but I nonetheless feel compelled to offer you advice (about forgiveness) that you probably don't want to, or cannot accept at this time.

And I'm not saying all of this to minimize your hurt, or blame you in any way, or to make it like it's all on your shoulders, or your fault, or anything like that. All I am saying is, the reason we forgive is because we CAN'T deal with the pain ourselves. If we could deal with it, we wouldn't have all the health problems. But we can't deal with such abuse, so the only remedy is to give it to someone who can. Holding on to it does absolutely nothing. Forgiveness is simply a way to give the pain to someone else, which is Jesus. He will take your burdens and make them His own.

When you forgive, you let go of all the bitterness, grudges, pain, hatred and resentment, and something good happens to us. The amount of effort we put into un-forgiveness is equal to the amount of pain we will have in our lives. I am sorry that that is so discomforting-sounding, but unfortunately it is true. Likewise, how much we forgive = how much we LIVE. Holding on to un-forgiveness is death, it is dying a little more each day. So I let it go, and you cannot understand how great it feels until you do it. I don't mean instantaneously, but I promise you, if you forgive, God will bless you with healing, especially since He knows how hard it can be to forgive.

I hope this doesn't sound mechanical, as you stated that you didn't want mechanical advice on forgiveness. When we obey God's laws we have health, when we do it our way, we often don't. I can love and forgive because God does to someone like ME. It's my little way of saying thank you to Him. Nothing I will ever face will equal the abuse He took for me, nor will anything I will ever have to forgive equal what He had to forgive me of.

I have a lot of regrets in my life, but the biggest one is not forgiving sooner. The Lord's prayer says : forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who've trespassed against us". That is where the healing lies. Forgiving isn't forgetting, or letting the person off the hook, or giving acceptance to what was done. It is simply refusing to any longer let the abuse continue to abuse you.

Here's another one of my simplistic analogies : when a little child is bullied, what does he often do? He says, "my daddy's going to beat you up". Or "my daddy can take your daddy", etc.

Point being, we have a Father, whom we can come to as our Abba (literally, "daddy") Father. And our Father is greater than all, and where we have no strength to endure and carry on, He has it in spades, and it is His good pleasure to give it to us. But if we don't forgive, He won't forgive us. When we forgive, we set into motion all the power of heaven to move in our lives. I am sorry if none of this has helped you, because I can remember a time when I would have rejected what I just said to you if it had been said to me. But at the time I didn't understand any of this, nor did I have the hindsight to be able to look back at the harmful effects of not being forgiving.

It's sheer act of will, and if we can't forgive on our own, God can enable us to do it. But we must want to. Much like you talked about mechanical forgiveness, so too, we mustn't be fake, or halfhearted, or "strings attached" when we forgive.

Well, I've said a lot more than I had wanted or planned to. And it was not my intention to bludgeon you with this, so if I did, please forgive me. I will be praying for you sister. God loves you more than you know, it sometimes just feels like He doesn't when you are hurting.

It brings to mind how much Jesus was hurting in the garden of Gethsemane, so much so, that he sweat great drops of blood from His skin, and He felt so alone and rejected even by His Father, crying out, "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" I've never hurt so much that blood oozed out of my skin, nor have I had to forgive anyone that caused me that much pain. But Jesus was never forsaken, and in the same way, neither will we ever be forsaken. We can't see the end of things, but God can. So when it looks hopeless, it is only because we can't see what God does. God bless you!, and I pray you will call on the Mighty Savior and let Him heal you.

P.S. ---- Sorry, Christ4Ever, I hadn't read all of your replies to lilyofthevalley before I sent this, and I just noticed after I sent this, that you had already beat me to the punch about the sweating drops of blood thing. I wasn't copying you! But I am glad to see someone thinking along the same lines!

 

[littlesheep]

Thank you for your post peaceseeker. Its not that I haven't wanted to forgive, or withhold it - I've really tried. But the reality is that I've needed help recovering physically and mentally and I feel I was pushed back towards my birth family by well meaning but misguided people, when I really needed building up and emotional support from people who said they were my brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, I missed out a couple of things about the abuse because I didn't want to think about them, but I appreciate that other people will have had a worse time of it.

I think I get some of your concept of forgiveness, but I need help with the ongoing ins and outs of relating, especially with my dad - because he does not respect boundaries. I find it extremely difficult to talk with him about things because if I don't say it 'perfectly' I'll get picked up on it or he will try and make me feel guilty or will pick flaws in my way of thinking. I don't know exactly whats happening when we relate, other than I am finding myself repulsed by him and his ways - he always insists on kissing and I would just rather not. After years of a lot of hard work in relating with him, I realise a lot has still been on his terms and its taken a lot of energy out of me.

From what you are saying my healing will be apparent if I forgive. But is forgiveness the same as acceptance?? Does forgiveness mean being in relationship again? I think in many ways I have already forgiven but what I'm struggling with is boundaries and coming to terms with the consequences and effects that entrenched behaviour and beliefs have had on me as a person. It seems as if I was/am being set up for a lifetime of giving up my needs to others, when the trouble is that I can't function if I don't get my basic needs respected/met.

I feel like I am having to defend myself again and again. I realise that you and others have managed to move on and are telling me that its down to forgiveness. I am really questioning the notion that I need to forgive more in order to get healed.. A psychologist who counselled me once told me that usually most people will have some person in their life who makes a difference outside of their situation - such as a teacher, an aunt, grandparent, youth worker, or friend - but that I hadn't had that connection with anyone else and that's why I had got so ill. Are you really saying that if I revisit the idea of forgiveness again, that my diabetes will heal or the weight will drop off or the loose skin from the weight gain will shrink back?? (sorry to be so graphic, but this is the reality).

I think I need to look at other things apart from forgiveness because I've invested a lot in that already. I think I need help with boundaries and communication around unhealthy behaviour.

I don't know what else to say. I'm pretty sure that Jesus would have set boundaries and wouldn't have been a doormat.

 

[littlesheep]

I've just been thinking more ... I think that to make the connection that a person has ill-health because they haven't forgiven people enough in their lives and will be healed if they do forgive perhaps more perfectly could be wrong. Just because someone has been ill doesn't mean that they've done something wrong or sinned. Also, what's considered enough forgiveness?

 

[DutchChristian]

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Mark 11:26

 

[faithfulservant]

I'd be grateful for people's thoughts on what someone's situation is if they have lost their faith and denied that Jesus is the Son of God? Does that mean there's no going back?

No. In fact, Peter denied the Lord very early on in his ministry. He was received back by Jesus. Even later, he was standing condemned because he had taken a yoke of bondage up when he was refusing to eat with gentiles, but again God received him back. Peter no doubt died in Christ (and saved) despite his fumblings. Jesus will not turn you away, my friend. Trust Him.

 

[faithfulservant]

I've just been thinking more ... I think that to make the connection that a person has ill-health because they haven't forgiven people enough in their lives and will be healed if they do forgive perhaps more perfectly could be wrong. Just because someone has been ill doesn't mean that they've done something wrong or sinned. Also, what's considered enough forgiveness?

I think a good sign that you have forgiven someone from the heart is that you don't feel anymore animosity or resentment towards them. Sometimes only God can work that forgiveness into you, but you should speak that forgiveness and ask for God to help you forgive them.

 

[littlesheep]

I think a good sign that you have forgiven someone from the heart is that you don't feel anymore animosity or resentment towards them. Sometimes only God can work that forgiveness into you, but you should speak that forgiveness and ask for God to help you forgive them.

Thanks for this clearly written response. I think then that I have forgiven my stepfather. But I think that I've slipped back with my biological father. I find it a big strain seeing him and being in contact with him since he expects me to be emotionally supportive to him and this has gone on since I was young. In contrast to this, he is not at all supportive towards me other than occasionally with modest financial gifts and in return for this he expects me to be grateful, happy and silent. He criticises the way I think and when I have done well in any area - he has totally ignored it, and withheld any praise. The way he has related to me has had a devastating effect on my self-worth and self-belief. I am only just now, aged in my mid-forties, recognising how much it has all affected me and how after I see him or speak to him, I feel stressed, strained and as if I am having to wear a mask to relate to him. There are other contributory factors as well - he lives with a woman much younger than me and offloads his criticisms of her to me. He has even ogled girls who are school-aged in front of me. Basically, I can't stand him. How can I move on when he badgers me with phone calls wanting to come and visit. I have tried to set a boundary with him over being critical of his partner but it just seemed to provoke him to be worse. These are obviously just some of his charactestics that I have seen and I do realise that there are times when he is more pleasant - but I think he probably has a personality disorder because of the way he behaves. I feel like I really need a break from being with him and for my health it would be best not to see him very often. The thing is that the less I see of him, the more I realise that I really don't want to see him at all.

Well, I guess I've vented quite a lot. I think what I resent is being emotionally supportive of him, but I just tend to do that and I don't know how to stop. In fact, if I stopped I really don't know what we would talk about at all. But that's what I'd like - to change the way we relate so that I don't feel so used or manipulated by him.

 

[faithfulservant]

Your "self-worth" should no longer depend upon what people think. You are a child of God now. He has deemed you worthy for salvation because of what His Son Jesus did on the cross. Take that by faith, and pray for the Lord to give you healing and comfort over your self-perception.

Additionally, it appears you have allowed yourself to be "unequally yoked" with this person because you have a familial connection. If this person is causing strife, and has no love for God, pray for them and intercede for their salvation. But you don't need to spend time with this person, especially if they have no love for God. Paul says, what fellowship has light with darkness? What have you in common? You want to live for Jesus now. That means you care about living in a godly manner. People who have no relationship with Jesus will continually try to draw you away from the Lord. They don't understand. Pray for them, but you don't need to spend time with them if they only wish to stir up strife and draw you away from God.

 

[Peace Seeker]

Thank you for your post peaceseeker. Its not that I haven't wanted to forgive, or withhold it - I've really tried. But the reality is that I've needed help recovering physically and mentally and I feel I was pushed back towards my birth family by well meaning but misguided people, when I really needed building up and emotional support from people who said they were my brothers and sisters in Christ. Also, I missed out a couple of things about the abuse because I didn't want to think about them, but I appreciate that other people will have had a worse time of it.

I think I get some of your concept of forgiveness, but I need help with the ongoing ins and outs of relating, especially with my dad - because he does not respect boundaries. I find it extremely difficult to talk with him about things because if I don't say it 'perfectly' I'll get picked up on it or he will try and make me feel guilty or will pick flaws in my way of thinking. I don't know exactly whats happening when we relate, other than I am finding myself repulsed by him and his ways - he always insists on kissing and I would just rather not. After years of a lot of hard work in relating with him, I realise a lot has still been on his terms and its taken a lot of energy out of me.

From what you are saying my healing will be apparent if I forgive. But is forgiveness the same as acceptance?? Does forgiveness mean being in relationship again? I think in many ways I have already forgiven but what I'm struggling with is boundaries and coming to terms with the consequences and effects that entrenched behaviour and beliefs have had on me as a person. It seems as if I was/am being set up for a lifetime of giving up my needs to others, when the trouble is that I can't function if I don't get my basic needs respected/met.

I feel like I am having to defend myself again and again. I realise that you and others have managed to move on and are telling me that its down to forgiveness. I am really questioning the notion that I need to forgive more in order to get healed.. A psychologist who counselled me once told me that usually most people will have some person in their life who makes a difference outside of their situation - such as a teacher, an aunt, grandparent, youth worker, or friend - but that I hadn't had that connection with anyone else and that's why I had got so ill. Are you really saying that if I revisit the idea of forgiveness again, that my diabetes will heal or the weight will drop off or the loose skin from the weight gain will shrink back?? (sorry to be so graphic, but this is the reality).

I think I need to look at other things apart from forgiveness because I've invested a lot in that already. I think I need help with boundaries and communication around unhealthy behaviour.

I don't know what else to say. I'm pretty sure that Jesus would have set boundaries and wouldn't have been a doormat.

Hi lilyofthevalley,

Thank you for your message. I understand what you're saying when you mentioned about "being pushed back to family members by well-meaning but misguided people", believe me I do. The last thing you want to do is go make nice with people that treat you like dirt. And while you want to get away from them, people are telling you to go to them. I can't be around one of my siblings for long, because he is, to put it frankly, a manipulative and sociopathic jerk. He's also an unbeliever. So my hanging around him is not an option. BUT, if he is at family gatherings, or at Easter dinner, etc. I can and do endeavor to be polite and civil towards him. 1 John says "He who says he loves God but hates his brother is a liar". Some might say that refers to a Christian brother, but to me the point is moot. If we are to love our enemies, how much more our family, if at all possible?

Anyway, if I'm (hopefully) understanding you correctly, what you're saying about healing is, the process you need in your life in order for that to happen is : 1. recover physically and mentally (getting help with the ongoing ins and outs of relating with your dad, etc.) 2. fix boundaries that are broken 3. then start forgiving.

But in that case, I think that way of thinking is putting the cart before the horse. What I mean is, trying to heal without forgiveness is like saying you will only put a band-aid on your gushing wound after it stops gushing and has healed itself. But the band-aid, being my metaphor for forgiveness, is the key ingredient in the healing, and it needs to be applied while, not after you are have bled for a long time.

The band-aid keeps all the dirt and crap out of the wound so that it can heal. No band-aid/forgiveness = a wound full of dirt and poison and other harmful things, that will keep the wound from healing. Your mind is wounded, and it will not heal unless you get all the poison out of it, and the poison is bitterness, un-forgiveness, etc. I don't think there is any way around that, as much as I wish there were soothing words I could give you by telling you something else.

Hebrews 12:1 talks about throwing off everything that hinders us, and the sin that so easily entangles us, so that we can run with perseverance the race marked out for us. That's why we need to let go of everything that hinders, so we can start living and moving in God's ways, instead of staying stuck in the same mental hell every day. When we forgive, we move forward, when we don't, we stay perpetually trapped behind in the very place where the abuse was.

Sorry if I sound like I am harping all over you about this, but I need to stress how important it is. Now, before I go on, let me get to your question about acceptance. The answer is absolutely, "NO", forgiving is not accepting the wrong behavior. There is nothing acceptable about abuse. And it is not saying they can do it again, or it's okay, etc. Nor does forgiveness mean that you have to leap back into an unhealthy relationship again. Forgiveness doesn't imply putting yourself in harm's way for the sake of forgiving. But on the other hand, if, to use my case as an example, I've genuinely forgiven my dad, I can't say, "I forgive you dad, but I hate you". Or, "I forgive you but I want nothing to do with you". You know what I mean?

Are you really saying that if I revisit the idea of forgiveness again, that my diabetes will heal or the weight will drop off or the loose skin from the weight gain will shrink back?? (sorry to be so graphic, but this is the reality).

No, of course not. It's not like, "POOF!", you go from sick to healed the second you forgive. What my basic message has been is, sound mind = sound body to a large degree, and of course, an unsound mind = unsound body. So in order to cure what ails you, you must treat the problem (the emotional scars), and having done that, it would positively affect the symptoms, don't you agree?
For instance, if your weight problem is due to overeating, which is due to your low self-worth because of the abuse you've had, etc., then I would say that yes, your weight problem would change if the unhealthy thought processes you have that cause you to overeat were gotten rid of. It's well known that angry people have a lot more health problems than people who aren't. It is also known that stress kills. It KILLS. Which proves what I'm saying, that harmful thoughts harm the body. Why the thoughts are there doesn't matter when it comes to the health of your mind and body.

Coincidentally - * or not - this daily devotional message (in red) from the berean org arrived in my email this morning. I don't know if it'll be helpful to you or not, but I thought I'd pass it along in case :

Proverbs 23:7
7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.
" Eat and drink!" he says to you,
But his heart is not with you.

Philippians 2:4
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.


We live in a society absorbed with its own feelings. Today, people are addicted to seeing themselves as victims and demanding special tolerance, favor, acceptance, or gifts. Yet a mind concerned with its own painful experiences, rejections, mistakes, or emotional hurts is one that refuses healing. These emotions comfort like old bandages, and many are afraid to see what is underneath. Some cling to them because they give special "handicap" privileges, and they use them to justify what they believe, say or do.

It is a demonic delusion because it only perpetuates the pain and denies the freedom or forgiveness that God offers.

Pain should serve to teach and mature us, not box us into the darkness. Hebrews 2:10 says Christ learned by the things He suffered—His pain was His teacher. Likewise, our painful experiences can teach us the contrasts between this human life and the glorious life for which God is preparing us.

However, a mind that feels pain speaks pain, and, if left unchecked, will eventually drive others away. Sharing a painful experience with a confidant is empowering and emotionally bonding, but continually sharing it with anyone who will listen deludes us into thinking that it is good for us when it is actually a kind of psychosis. Preoccupation with personal pain denies the fruit of the Spirit. It brings no peace or joy or love, etc.

Proverbs 23:7 teaches, "For as [one] thinks in his heart, so is he." It is easy to become caught up in life's painful experiences, and some of us have enough of them to fill novels. Yet Paul instructs the Philippians not to dwell on themselves so much: "Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others" (Philippians 2:4).

At times, the best way to put aside pain is to care for the needs of someone else. Positive and outgoing communication provides plenty of time to talk about painful experiences, but it does not allow them to become a way of life. When someone asks, we can feel free to express some of the painful events of our lives, but we should show interest and concern for the other's experiences and provide encouragement as needed.

Well anyway, I am praying for you that you receive the healing you desire and need, and mostly that you will call upon the Lord who is mighty to save. If no one can help you, He most definitely can. Oh yeah, I just wanted to add that I have not meant to imply in anything I've said, that healing will happen over night, or that it is some explicit duty of yours to muster up some super-human strength to forgive your abusers. Nor am I saying you only have a certain time limit in which you are allowed to think a certain way, or anything like that. Sometimes healing takes years, sometimes not. Your emotions are your own, and you are in charge of them. But our attitude is all-important in this. And our level of trust that God can and will do for us what seems ridiculously hard and impossible for us to do. He healed me, and you're no different to Him than I am. God bless!